***Brown Sugar Victoria 2 Collection by Dalinise > 20% off ($15.96) through 19 August ? Reg. Price $19.95 > DAZ is pleased to welcome Dalinise to our broker team with the release of her new Brown Sugar > Victoria 2 Collection. Explore the possibilities with these 9 exotic beauties from the dark > continent of Africa. Brown Sugar Victoria 2 is a very realistic and beautiful ethnic model, > excellent for facial close-up, as well as for all other posing purposes. This collection includes 4 > photo realistic head maps, a photo realistic body map, 9 character morphs, 4 eye maps, nail morphs, > and MAT/MOR files for applying head, body, and eye maps. "Brown sugar?" The "dark continent?" Is it just me, is this whole description a teeny bit, um, ethnically insensitive?

Umm, no need to lay the blame on DAZ, the 'Brown Sugar' items from the same vendor in the Renderosity MP have nearly the same description.

I've known ladies before that refered to themselves as "brown sugar," and Africa has been refered to as the "Dark Continent" for many years. I've always thought that refered to the difficulty in exploring parts of it, not the color of its people.

Is it just me, or is "another Utah moment from DAZ" just a teeny bit, um, geo-socially insensitive? Sorry to be a smartass, but I wanted to make a little point. Actually, your question is a good one. I don't care for "dark continent." In spite of jchimim's correct comment, the phrase has holdover connotations from the era of European imperialism when phrases like that implied more than just the difficulties of the continent's landscapes. "Brown sugar" is meant as a compliment. I've never heard black people protest that phrase. My best friend who is Afro-Am refers to herself as "sweet chocolate" and such, sometimes. It's meant to be cute, not derisive. Obviously the Stones song "Brown Sugar" is a song of admiration, not bigotry. Still, IMHO it's best in business (especially in the USA where we still haven't come to terms with these issues) to avoid such phrases, because you never know who you might turn off or offend. I can't imagine a texture for a Euro character being referred to as "White Sugar," can you? I used to find the name of the "Zulu" texture offensive until I realized that in the context of the Spanish man who designed it, it was meant to connote the strength and nobility of that tribe, not to characterize black men in a negative manner. I don't believe in being "color blind," because I think all human colors are attractive, but Mosca is probably correct that DAZ should avoid phrases like that. I'm sure they meant no wrong. I must say I've seen many, many disparaging remarks about DAZ just because they're in Utah, which people associate with Mormons, whom they obviously have bigotry towards.

Excuse me but what the hell do you call a "Utah moment" then????? It's ok to accuse them of something that offends you....but did it EVER occur to you that you are also using terminology that might just be offensive to them???!!! As the old saying goes...sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and that is NOT a racial slur so don't even go there. Marque

"Still, IMHO it's best in business...to avoid such phrases" Agree xoconostle, it is unproffessional. (sp?)

It is always a little dangerous to wade into these things, but as one of a relatively small group of black poser users, I thought I would add my thoughts. "Dark Continent" does have difficult historical connotations; Jchimim is correct in indicating that it refered to the mysteriousness of the place to Europeans but unfortunately ignored that there were people who lived there already and who were familiar with the continent. There are excellent style manuals used by businesses and the press to avoid these terms. "Brown Sugar" is problematic. The issue is familiarity; calling a black person "brown sugar" who you know well is fine as is any pet name. Using the term as a generic of the appeal to Caucasians of black people seems to me like complimenting someone on their breasts i.e... best saved for those "private moments". It does strike me as a little unprofessional.

As a black American who studies issues such as the "Brown Sugar" contrioversy above. I think the problems of ethnic insensitivity with this title arise from 3 primary historical tendencies (at least here in the U.S.): 1. The tendency to regard all things WASPish (i.e. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) as the unmarked and normative categories and anything non-WASPish as marked and aberrant. Thus, DAZ, Poser, and all businesses and institutions who market products aimed at or depicting WASPs images can market them as normative (i.e. ordinary, neutral, and supposedly universal) items. Other non-WASP products, therefore, become marked as abberations. (Compare the earlier cries for more body-types in this forum several years ago.) Here in the U.S., we call these things "ethnic"--They are either non-White, non-Anglo-Saxon, or non-Protestant.(This is why both the German and Irish immigrants at the turn of the century were labelled as "ethnic." They lacked only the moniker of being Anglo-Saxon and/or Protestant.) One can fault DAZ's marketting strategy here only for being uncritically consistent with the American tendency to believe that things white are necessarily unmarked, that is to say, neutral, ordinary and pure. (Strike 1) The second uncritical assumption that the "Brown Sugar" marketing ploy makes is the colonialist one. "Brown sugar," of course, references the colonialist history of the Carribean and American Southeast where British, French and American plantations imported African slaves to grow sugar. "Brown sugar" thus, synechdotally equates the African people with the product of their labor. This equation also recalls (and I think glorifies) this colonialist history. Many blacks, knowingly or not, use the term ironically (as we do others such as "nigger") to deflate this glorification of an evil history. While possible, it is much harder for whites to imply such an ironic usage b/c of the obvious problem of verifying their ideological stance on the issue. This, I think, is why blacks can call ourselves "niggers," but others, esp. whites, are generally not allowed to do so. (Strike 2) And finally, using the strategy of calling representations of blacks "Brown sugar" signals a potentially devastating implication (as with the plantation owners' use above) that undermines the uniquely human status of blacks. We are commodities, like sugar, cattle, or cotton who can be bought, sold, or traded without regard to our rights as rational intelligent beings. I haven't often heard of WASP women being openy regarded as "white sugar." And even the use of "sugar" as a term of endearment carries with it a sense social and emotional connection not found in calling someone, "brown sugar." Someone we can "sugar" remains intimately human. Someone we call "brown sugar" is alien, impersonal, and commodified. It lies at the intersection of sexism and racism. (Strike 3) Thus, for these reasons, I think DAZ (and the entire community actually) should rethink its marketting approach to promoting "ethnicity." To continue with these practices implicitly or explicitly, buys into the terrible history of murderous colonialism and racism that most of us reget and reject. this being said, I like DAZ, whether they are in Utah or not. --lordbyron

Bleh, there is such a thing as beeing to PC.

sorry but every time I see one of these threads it makes me feel sick, racism is only a problem for people who don't have a life outside their own head, & before anyone says it, it's not just white people who can be racist, I've come across my fair share of non white racists. mods either move this thread to OT or close it please before I really get started & say something that gets me banned permanently. Rob

C1rcle, I completely agree w/ your statement about non-white racist, but your argument is a "red herring" which tries avoid the problem w/ DAZ's present strategy. Don't run away from today's relevant issues. Help me correct this problem and I'll do my best to help you when black racists attack you. Sound fair? Axe, You too have a point. There is such a thing as being too politically correct. We haven't reached that point yet, not by a long shot.

lordbyron, everyone else... Has anyone thought to e-mail DAZ and ask them about this? Just a thought. /P

ok fair enough, it's not Daz that has the problem tho, that item has been around for a while with the same name & only now that Daz starts to sell it does it suddenly become a perceived problem, why was it not a problem when it was sold here? Rob

(had to amend it and re-post... Marque is cool - this was originally meant for Mosca.) Mosca: As someone who lives in Utah right now, I'd like to know what exactly you meant by that term. Now cough it up... am I some bible-thumping intolerant bigot? According to you, I apparently am. Guess I'd better get my barefoot and pregnant wives to get off their asses and go sew some sheets together for my next march, huh? Nice to know you've already pre-judged me and a half-million other non-mormons who just happen to live here. Nice to know you've pre-judged a vast majority of mormons, most of whom are more racially sensitive in social situations than you are. (Now - do you see the folly of using prejudice to point out what you percieve to be prejudice?)

Simple...I didn't see it here. And if I had, I probably wouldn't have said anything anyway. Doing so would have brought the item more exposure than leaving it alone. Everyone, even individuals I disagree w/ should be allowed to express their opinions, so long as they don't hurt others. But as a leading Poser merchant, DAZ gives the item the potential to be a lot more influential. DAZ's position gives it a much greater social responsibility not to propogate dangerous, antiquated (and potentially racist)views. But you make a good point about talking to DAZ. I will forward my letter to them ASAP. Thanks for the idea.

In all likelyhood the good people at Daz did not write the description for "brown sugar" Dalinise is the probable author. But in her defense she does need to express the fact that her character is of a color that is not common among the typical Vickys. Black, afro-american, african, pick your poison. How should she describe her character, can you do it better? I have seen complaints that there aren't enough "ethnic" characters out there, but now when someone creates one she is being flamed for it.

And since she does in fact use the same terminology shouldn't you also talk to the folks here at Renderosity? Marque

I know I'm going to regret sticking my nose in here, but give me a break. "Dark Continent" has long been a description to romanticize the Continent where deep, dark forests and mysteries abound. To me it gives the feeling of a far away, exotic place...gives me goose bumps just thinking about it. As for Brown Sugar...it's a name. I believe there is (or was) a singing groung by the same name with a little different spelling. Sheeesh!!

Shadowcat, You raise a good caveat here. I desire to attack the label through which the product is sold, not the product itself. After all, there are simply not enough good "ethnic" textures for Vicky. Dalinise, DAZ,Curious Labs (and all other merchants)--Please continue to produce quality products, but I implore you to make a concerted effort to oppose the cultural mindset which forces these products to the margins of the Poser world. You can do this very simply in the labelling, presentation, and description of your products. It is sad when a good Black, Hispanic, Asian or whatever figure/texture/morph is seen as a specialty "extra" instead of a necessary component to universalize a wonderful product. p.s. As a guesture of my seriousness and good will towards those who would help me to improve what is essentially a good product, I promise to Dalinise and DAZ to buy your textures when you update your promotional strategy to sell it by changing the product's name.

But in her defense she does need to express the fact that her character is of a color that is not common among the typical Vickys. Black, afro-american, african, pick your poison. How should she describe her character, can you do it better? How about just giving the victoria one, and the michael one names, like Eowynn's ethnic characters...and letting the pictures be worth some words. i had to go check daz, before commenting...i think naming them BOTH brown sugar can be seen as a bit racist. when i first read this thread, i thought brown sugar was a female, only....on seeing a mike character, as well....well, brown sugar isn't just being used as a nickname, like honey, cinnamon, etc.

Excellent suggestion Poppi... Turn the "Brown sugar" characters into "people" (who have names) instead of caricatures to signify a whole race. This is a good start.

" racism is only a problem for people who don't have a life outside their own head," Tell that one to Nelson Mandela. I'm sure he'd find it very amusing. "Mosca: As someone who lives in Utah right now, I'd like to know what exactly you meant by that term." Utah is among the whitest states in the nation, and is politically, economically and socially dominated by the whitest major religion in America. I've spent some time there (friends of mine went to school at Utah), and I know for a fact that if you're not white, straight and LDS it's not the most diversity-friendly place in the world. That's what I meant. "Nice to know you've pre-judged a vast majority of mormons, most of whom are more racially sensitive in social situations than you are." Actually, I didn't say anything about the Mormons, but since you bring it up: how many African Americans are members of the LDS? How many hold church offices? And what would you know about my racial sensitivity in social situations? How would you even presume to know what my ethnicity is? And, for the record, I emailed DAZ about this before I posted here, suggesting that they apologize and rephrase the promo material for the products in question. Still no response.

Ack. I actually agree with Poppi. What is the world coming to?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/freestuff.ez?Form.Contrib=Penguinisto&Topsectionid=0

Speaking of which, I've had Audra's skin texture in Free Stuff for awhile - perhaps while the subject is up, someone could vet the description for me? (notice that I only use technical terminology... if anyone finds it offensive, please say so, suggest an alternative, and I'll rectify it.) /P

"Is it just me, or is "another Utah moment from DAZ" just a teeny bit, um, geo-socially insensitive? Sorry to be a smartass, but I wanted to make a little point." The difference is, you can move away from Utah. And what does "geo-socially insensitive" mean, anyway? You're not supposed to make fun of places? Not even Utah? How about France? This political-correctness thing has gone TOO FAR!

A slight retraction... Reviewing Dalinise's ad @ DAZ, I see that she does give here characters names, so I must apologize for note reading this section closely. My problems with the title, however, remains. How about "African Beauties" or "African Magic?" I was going to say..."Dark Magic," but this encounters similar racist Western preconceptions as "Brown Sugar." (i.e. the Church's condemnation of any non-Western and orthodox religions as demonic. You see...the problem is endemic our cultural views.) To quote Billy Joel, "We didn't start the fire/but gotta fight it."

lordbyron-- Good for you. Nothing like putting your money where your mouth is.

To clarify, though others have expressed more or less the same thing: my problem with the promo material is its silly exotification of African American women (would you call an Asian character "Yellow Silk?", or refer to China's "inscrutable mysteries?"); also, the term "brown sugar" is often used by white men to describe black women in a sexualized way; as in the Rolling Stones song, circa 1978, or whenever. A different standard ought to apply in 2002.

And one more thing: DAZ is responsible, ultimately, for the wya its products are presented on its website, and through its wmail promotions. I mention DAZ here specifically because I the above promo was emailed to me. If the same material is in the marketplace here, it should probably be changed, too.

(Hoo-boy... if THIS doesn't shove the thread into OT...) "Utah is among the whitest states in the nation, and is politically, economically and socially dominated by the whitest major religion in America." ...and that automatically makes us all bigots and Kluxers, right? After all, if there's not a whole lot of black folk around, then white folk are automatically free to be as hateful as they wanna be! Why must you compound your errors like this? " I've spent some time there (friends of mine went to school at Utah)" How much time? Obviously not very long, given your blanket accusations. I've been here for five years, and before I moved back here, for a three year period. "Actually, I didn't say anything about the Mormons, but since you bring it up: how many African Americans are members of the LDS?" I wasn't aware that religions had to adhere to affirmative action quotas. If I were to make a similarly foolish statement about, say, "Arabs being racist as a whole", and said: "after all, how many white members and leaders are there in the Islam?" It would be a stupid justification for my own hypothetical bigotry. What you're saying is just as bad. You're going to have to have a lot more facts than just insinuations based on general demographics. You may also want to check the percentage of Utahns who actually are members of the LDS faith... I suspect you'll be suprised. "And what would you know about my racial sensitivity in social situations? How would you even presume to know what my ethnicity is?" I was being generous - I am well aware of many Utahns who freak at the thought of even accidentally offending someone not of their own color - guess I was wrong in assuming you were'nt as hypersensitive than they. My bad. Incidentally, you just asked the same question I asked you, but you've rather failed to anwer: "How would you know?" After all, you made the bigoted generalization towards the place I happen to call home. If I were Polish and DAZ were a Polish company, what blanket statement would easily be assumed by the reader by your saying "Another Polish moment from DAZ"? I think we both know the answer, but you somehow cannot bring yourself to face it. You spoke from (presumed) anecdotes, but I'm speaking from the very place you spread your bigotry upon. I can walk out my front door right now and gather more information about what ordinary Utah is like in 30 seconds, than you could in a month of hard research. "And, for the record, I emailed DAZ about this before I posted here, suggesting that they apologize and rephrase the promo material for the products in question. Still no response." It's the weekend. Why aren't you at work right now? After all, if you expect them to be... Lookit - if you want to bag on DAZ, fine - just don't go making bigoted (and IMHO ignorant) remarks about those of us who live nearby. /P

"...American tendency to believe that things white are necessarily unmarked, that is to say, neutral, ordinary and pure." If that were true, we'd say "brown chocolate" and "chocolate" instead of "chocolate" and "white chocolate." It's not that things white are unmarked, it's that things common are unmarked. "'Brown sugar,' of course, references the colonialist history of the Carribean and American Southeast..." Lordbyron, you may read that into the phrase, but to assume Dalinise intended it that way is to insult all non-blacks (especially the manufacturers of brown sugar!) "...calling representations of blacks "Brown sugar" signals a potentially devastating implication (as with the plantation owners' use above) that undermines the uniquely human status of blacks. We are commodities, like sugar..." Sometimes a term of affection IS JUST a term of affection. When are we being too politically correct? When it gets in the way of open dialog because we have to worry about anything we say or do being misinterpreted.

Penguinnisto, As per my pledge to c1rcle (and responsibility to myself) I must agree with your strenuous defense of yourself and your neighbors. While Utah may have a reputation for a certain brand of racism, like many reputations often, it may be unwarranted. I am from Texas after all...our rep on race certainly isn't sterling. But it is my home and I love it. To attack DAZ for being in Utah, or even to attack Utah in a general condemnation w/o a specific case is patently unfair and a species of the illness I wish to cure. I may not be the biggest fan of Mormon history, but do know some good Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah. As a teacher of rhetoric, I see that Mosca is committing what rhetoricians call the "Pro pars toto" fallacy--unnecessarily attacking the whole for a problem in part of the mechanism. Please stop it, Mosca. I might agree w/ your intent, but not your methods.

"If I were to make a similarly foolish statement about, say, "Arabs being racist as a whole", and said: "after all, how many white members and leaders are there in the Islam?" It would be a stupid justification for my own hypothetical bigotry. What you're saying is just as bad." See: Circular Reasoning. When did I say anything about Utahns (Utahns?) being "racist as a whole?" A little hypersensitive, Pen? "Incidentally, you just asked the same question I asked you, but you've rather failed to anwer: "How would you know?"" See above. I made no statement regarding your personal ethnicity, OR your personal attitudes about persons of differing ethnicities. I'm not accusing anyone of being a racist or a Kluxer or having multiple barefoot wives--that's all YOU, reading between what you think the lines are. Are you suggesting that Utah, with its miniscule non-white population, is the global center of ethnic sensitivity? If it was, DAZ wouldn't have sent a mass email to all of its customers that contained racially charged and probably (judging from the reactions of some of the members here) insensitive language. I have to say, it interests me when people who haven't been accused of anything start defending themselves with such vigor. What's up with that?

Ah, well - Okay Mosca - I'll quit screwing with your head - I didn't notice you'd already cried "uncle" up there and mentioned something about the world becoming too-PC. Not like everyone else wasn't dropping hints already... Me, I just used the Utah thing with the same arguments that you yourself used to scream about something DAZ was apparently guilty of. I found no end to humor in the meme you launched the thread with - using one blanket statement to protest another. I'll sit back and watch now... /P

oh, yay!!!! someone agrees with me. oh yay!!! someone agrees with me!!! kidding aside....when i think of "brown sugar", first i think of heroin, and, second, i think of a whore on the corner....third, i think of something to put on top of a ham. i would have named the michael...something like "stagger lee"...and the vicki...well, i still like "honey".

lordbyron: I apologize for your being dragged into my little bit of semi-humor. I wanted to point out to Mosca the perils of being overly hysteric and hypersensitive over such a small and easily-corrected item. I suspect that DAZ will help effect the change you seek, though I find it kind of funny in the way it was originally broadcast. Incidentally, I noticed that there is another character up for sale at DAZ - a little white Milgirl named "Sugar"... ah, I'll shut up now :) /P

[ how many white members and leaders are there in the Islam?" ] Me!!!

Well, the header got your attention, Pen. And DAZ is located in Utah, no? So stone me for seeing a connection. lordbyron--God save us all from rhetoricians (how's that for a pro pars toto?). I don't think I attacked anyone--just pointed out what seemed a moment of insensitivity coming from a very white (and rectangular) spot on the planet. I wasn't claiming to be sensitive myself. Anyone who's been around here a while will tell you I'm most certainly not.

Oh, Lord Byron... one more thing I forgot to mention: I'm originally from Arkansas (Springdale to be exact.) The Air Force brought me out here, the woman I met and married convinced me to stay. I've been to San Antonio once (USAF boot camp), Houston lots (and lots, and lots) of times, and Dallas once. Where in TX do you live?

I'd never heard Brown Sugar as a sexual term. When I saw it, I thought of it the same way I thought of the Peaches and Cream package - just another semi-poetic description. Would calling it the Coffee Bean package or the Dark Cocoa package be any better? Why is it okay to have a white texture package with food descriptions but not a black texture package? Isn't that more racist? I can see how the Dark Continent could be seen as racist to some, but it's a romantic term for Africa without racists overtones to others. Of course, I consider the Exotic Far East to be a complimentary term, not an insult.

Oh, I didn't know she named the mike tex "brown sugar" as well.... that is confusing. I just went and looked closer at the package images & to me at least, she (vicky) looks more arab(?) than the "typical" afro-american, most likely due to the morphs involved. (Can't think of a more accurate word than typical at the moment, maybe stereotypical instead?) The skin tone does approximate the color of real brown sugar though. I also have a texture package, in the package there are Mat files that change the base colors only, so that they can be used with any map. why? mostly because there are so few tetures of color. Unfortunatly this method tends to "wash out" skin detail. I have being trying to figure out a better way of universally modifying existing textures for skin tones changes. (boy I strayed from my point there, but I'll leave it in anyway) Each mat file is named for foods of color, because locally at least this is how I have always heard people describe different skin tones. Have I ever heard anyone called "white sugar"? No, white sugar is called plain ole sugar, but I have heard a white person described as vanilla, cream, peach, milky etc. generally skin color has always been a food name the only exceptions I can think of is ebony & ivory from the piano keys.

Hi Mosca (and everyone) This is a great thread and important debate. I hope DAZ employees read it and think about things. Lordbyron's comments are especially enlightening and considerable. I respectfully disagree that it should be moved or locked; this is a real world Poser/graphics/social issue, even if it inflames some passions. It's so true that there are too few non-Euro textures and morphs out there. I'm sure "Brown Sugar" is a worthy product, it's just that the name and copy are problematic for the reasons already discussed. I remember seeing another DAZ texture described as "African-American," which is considered respectful, but then, not all black people are American. :) Mosca, to clarify, I said what I said about your charicature of Utah because I thought it was, as others have pointed out so well, slightly hypocritical. I'm not attacking you at all, not calling names, only hoping you to see that these things go in many directions. As a former Mormon who has spent some time in Utah I'm aware of the truths, misconceptions, and outright lies that are common about that church and its members. I'm very critical of it, myself, although I recognize most members to be very fine people. (I'm also painfully aware of its racist history, which accounts for the low black membership mentioned.) The thing is, potentially offensive caricature language was specifically your complaint, you see? "Geo-socially" coined, if expediently, by me in the heat of the moment to help express: You're did the same thing to Utah people (being insensitive, inappropriate in language) that you accused DAZ of, except as pertaining to locale and population rather than ethnicity. In spite of whatever appearances, I'm horribly un-PC, and am sometimes disgusted by its excesses. My points aren't "PC," they're in regard to fairness, respect, and trying to do the right thing by everyone. PC does go too far, but it goes too far as an E-Z label, too. Yes, I do think it's OK to make fun of places and people sometimes. It's just that when you're trying to make a certain point... (OK, enough, everyone gets the pic...) By the way, where are the great Latino textures? ;-)

Mosca, ROTFLMAO!!! "God save us all from rhetoricians!"--Indeed. Socrates couldn't have said it better. Can I use this when teaching it to my students? By definition any ethical rhetorician hates his profession, but does it anyway--like any ethical lawyer, I guess. Penguin-- I live in the best place in the state, Austin. How's this for hubris?

LOL! works wonders, Sir :) /P

Coffee Bean package or the Dark Cocoa package be any better? how about "hot cocoa", or "rich cocoa"? there is ALOT in a name/label. and, yeah, some folks equate "sugar" with "lovin". you can use brown sugar to make "toffee"...but, i think you use white sugar in "taffy"....ohhhh...and, "mocha mama"... there are tons of nice, even flattering names for an african/american character. a wee bit of thought, and, planning....and, actually REMEMBERING that we are all different would have been so nice. and, like...i truly mean it...when i release bubba....15 different ass scratching poses plus, a real cool pickup..... and his female counterpart crystall, who has wonderful poses buying the economy size sanitary napkins, standing in line for free cheese, and, the ever popular....breaking into her neighbor's trailer. that's objectionable. as much fun as it would be to DO that...i would not. people have feelings. names mean things. i think i have heard of even murders being committed because of "names".

That's not hubris, that's fact. Austin is the best place in TX. Now my brother in Houston is going to call me insensitive, dang...

""Brown sugar," of course, references the colonialist history of the Carribean and American Southeast where British, French and American plantations imported African slaves to grow sugar. "Brown sugar" thus, synechdotally equates the African people with the product of their labor." Strange. "Brown Sugar" in the context we're speaking of always meant sweet and brown. Like the phrase " the blacker the berry, the sweeter the fruit". I've heard that phrase used many times without there being any bigoted context. I think there is a bigger problem here, of being too PC. Soon everything will be described in only the most neutral of terms. Our language will not only lose its color, it will lose its flavor as well. There are simply some people who go searching for and will always find, in some obsure reference, offence in anything. I'm not saying insensitivity and bigotry doesn't happen, I'm just saying it's not always the case every time. Has anyone bothered to ask Dalinise what she thinks of all this?

Continuing with Momcat's question, did you ever think maybe Dal has a dark skinned friend that calls herself Brown Sugar? Some of you are way way to uptight. And jumping all over Daz over this is wrong in the first place since the first Brown Sugar package was sold here. I didn't see any flames when that one was released. Both sets are wonderful and Dal has done extraordinary work on them. Shame on all you who are flaming her.

did you ever think maybe Dal has a dark skinned friend that calls herself Brown Sugar? nope...and, i have 3 real world friends...okay, good girl buddies. two are from the carribean...trinidad....by way of ancestors from india. the third is part black,and, part italian. my dad...gasp....was 1/4 black. anyway....if some guy on the street...no matter WHAT he was driving....called anyone of my friends "brown sugar"....they'd be immediately alerted to his loser qualities. dalinese makes the textures that i like the best....they are awesome. i aspire to them. BUT...she may be very bad with words.

"if some guy on the street...no matter WHAT he was driving....called anyone of my friends "brown sugar"....they'd be immediately alerted to his loser qualities." Yup, but if it were used as a term of affection by an established boyfriend...

Wolf calls are wolf calls, no matter what the phrase, and are offensive. The same phrases used by intimates are terms of affection, and are not. My husband calls me honey, some of my friends call me sweetie, or hon. I have no problem with this. A stranger says this, or someone I don't know well, and it's a different story. It's all context.