I have recently had the misfortune to use Poser 4 for the first time , and I musy say my first impressions are ones of sheer horror. In all my 30 years as a programmer , never have I seen a more obscure , ill designed and totally un intuitive user interface as that one. Gob smacked doesnt even begin to sum it up , it almost put me off starting 3d graphics for good!! Or is it ? Maybe I am doing something wrong but then again to my mind if the user cant figure it out without being held by the hand with a 300 page odd user guide then something aint right ? Comments please ?

I found it to be one of the easiest 3d programs I have ever used. Ron

have you tried 3dsmax or lightwave? now they are unintuitive, all 3d applications come with 300 page user guides as they are so complex. Before being put off forever have a wander through the poser gallery. The manual isn't exactly the best way to learn how to get the most out of poser, asking questions at forums like this will help you more than the manual. Rob

Poser breaks all major OS GUI design guidelines, but I don't think it's unintuitive at all. From what I've seen of P5 screenshots, Curious Labs has also addressed most of the major complaints about the interface and Library setup. Every major 3D package basically has their own OS-independent GUI. When you choose to learn a new piece of 3D software, you have to expect to spend a considerable amount of time just learning the interface before you can do any real work. -Adam

Well when I first got Poser, it was definately different then my usual software. But like I said once a while back, I am the type to read manuals first to get an understanding of software.....now I know what you are going to say, cause it has been said before that the manual is useless, but I do not agree, I at first read it and said, what ?, but then read it again and understood how it was suppose to work right down to the parenting of children. It just takes time to really get it, and what I didn't understand, I asked questions until I did understand. Thank you lovely people. Yes,it was a challenge and I love a challenge, but I also was quiet ignorant regarding Poser, I just had to learn some things, so if I were you, try again, I am sure you will pleasantly surprised. Sharen PS: and you will not regret it.

Whew, mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand, devongrrl, you are right. Poser is an un-intuitive program to use for anyone that has used almost anything else. It is clunky and inflexible. However, that is from the point of view of someone who is used to professional development environments, both for code and graphics. I think that for people that are not professional content developers, Poser is easier and faster to learn. It is addressing a much smaller problem space than most environments and can therefore afford to be more idiosyncratic in it's UI. I still think there are many improvements that can be made, and I am sure the the folks at CL would agree. If you are just getting started with 3D, give Poser a chance. While you may feel more comfortable in an environment like 3DS MAX, the learning curve will be much steeper. When working with a new paradigm as complex as 3D spaces you are going to need the manual to get started, no matter what.

major x-posting... everyone's jumpng in on this one! :-)

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Whoa boy wait till you try Max or... GAH! Animation Master. I'm a programmer too. The interface is more artsy than functional. Shut off that fricken logical brain and turn on the art brain. You have to think like an artist, not a programmer.

unintuitive? compaired to what i'd like to know? I started my graphics experience with programs such as illustrator and photoshop, those programs I found unintuitive, seemingly hundreds of those little tiny buttons with obscure graphics and most of the modeling software is worse. I'm with sharen, reading a 300 page manual is a small price to pay for mastery of a program and anyone would benifit from doing so with almost any program, saying that I created passable images even before reading the manual.

"Intuitive" is based on what you already know. It is entirely subjective. If you know photoshop or visual studio, Poser is incrdibly unintuitive. However, if you know Painter or Bryce, Poser's not that bad.

I had a slight advantage then when I started with poser4 cause I'd already been using Bryce since V2 :) compared to photoshop it's a breeze. Rob

Yep, I like Poser's hip interface too! Stick with it. Part of Poser's charm is making 3D character work fun and creative, so the interface reflects that perfectly. Spinning lights around for example is a perfect way to place them, and everything has dials too for when you need to be precise. Using some creative apps can be a chore, using Poser feels like fun. :-) Dave :-)

Personally, I have to agree that the anything being "intuitive" is very subjective, based upon how your own brain functions and what type of programs you're accustomed to. Bryce 3.0 was my very first 3D program, and although it did take time to learn, (and yes, reading the manual has to happen at some point, even if only to skim) it was not difficult. I didn't have alot of programming experience at the time. After learning Bryce, Poser was a breeze. Of course, I tend to be more right-brained and artsy and like to "fiddle" with things and just try everything to see what it does ... for me, that's the best way to learn. To not be afraid to click a button or dial and find out first hand what happens. Now, stuff like mathematical codes for fractals, that gives me headaches ... and I tried to learn ZBrush ... the learning curve on that one gave me a headache. :-) Stick with it ... it will become much easier if you'll hang out in the forums and perhaps join a Poser NG ... and there are "tons" of Poser sites out there, go have a look. Rhi

i think that poser has one of the most intuitive interfaces around. but is it ergonomical? no! :) it started good, but it isn't finnished yet. it's left with the early 90 philosophy of gui, trying to achieve analogue feeling - which is absurd. i am working with a digital tool that has nothing in common to the real world, so i'd like to have interface set to achieve maximum commodity and speed. btw, ever saw "shade"? ;)

"The manual isn't exactly the best way to learn how to get the most out of poser, asking questions at forums like this will help you more than the manual." I would tend to agree. For one thing, the Poser 4 manual wasn't adequately proofread... I went thru the custom figure tutorial w/ RayDream & got up to importing the .phi file...It couldn't find the geometry to match node. I went nutso checking the parts & parts names... The culprit was the part of the first line: objFile :Runtime:Geometries..... They typed it this way in the manual... objFile:Runtime:Geometries..... All that aside, CL needs to work on the whole UI a bit. I'm an artist so I think it's not too bad. I use Lightwave, which is as intuitive or more so, IMHO.

Try AutoCAD too......engineering all the way....Sharen

Well, if you like cute story lines, the manual is entertaining, I suppose, but for actually using the tools properly, it sucks. My main complaint with the gui and the manual is the emphasis on button tools rather than the dials. Its the reason I bought Poser 4 when it first came out and let it rot for several years. A couple of corkscrew Posettes-- Vicki wasn't born yet-- were enough to make me dump it. However, if you merely consider the toolbar above or around the display window to be arcane decoration-- wasted arcane decoration but this was first designed in the Kai era, don't get me going-- and concentrate on the accurate, semi accurate, dials and menus, then it is relatively intuitive. Figures conform-- most of the time. Objects parent. That's the basics. If you know what X, Y, and Z are, then you are most of the way there. Next you need a good tutorial on textures, cause none of that is accurately covered in the manual. Fortunately Ron Knight has done those for you. All this will change- a bit-- in Poser 5. Especially the texture part for non-millenium figures. But I expect the Ron Knights how to texture Vicki and Mike to still be needed for some time to come. I did Bryce before Poser and Poser helped me understand 3D better than Bryce did. I don't know why, it might be that I respond better to figures than landscapes. Emily

yeah Legume ;) hows the pink pony these days? Rob

Yep; when I first bought P3 I had it up and running and pornographic in ten minutes flat. The WORST thing about the interface for a newbie, I think, is trying to use the editing tools. Forget them--use the dials instead.

I always have to chuckle when I hear yet ANOTHER person bitching that people should be able to use "XYZ" software without EVER so much as glancing at a manual or ANY kind of instructions. There is NO software yet created that can do these hundreds of different things and is yet so wonderfully user-friendly that all you have to do is turn on the program and "bingo" you can do "anything". I'm another one who actually reads all the way thru a manual when I buy the software. At the time it doesn't mean much, but later when I have a problem, I usually can say "hey, I saw something about that, in was on a left-hand page about 3/4 of the way down" (or something like that). Even though a lot of it doesn't make sense that well on the first read, the concepts actually ENTER the brain and later when actually doing things, help make what's going on make some sense. All those who think ALL software should be 100% operable with absolutely NO manual OR instructions are wandering in dream-land. You'll get your wish when, and ONLY when, computers are fully telepathic, and can read your mind and decide what you want before even YOU know it. (And at that point, they'll probably decide they don't need US anymore.) Until then, get real!

I agree that the interface is not very intuitive. And I do feel that the editing and rendering side of poser is weak. But, having said that, I must point out what a truly amazing application it is. No other resonably priced 3D application allows you to create full realistice characters in such a short and efficent time. So if you invest the time and the effort(yeah read the manuals and any other documents and books you can get your hands on)you will be richly rewarded by creating great scenes and animations. Jack

As far as 3D graphics packages go, Poser is one of the easiest I've worked with so far. It's interface isn't all that alien if you go back and look at the other programs that were part of the Metacreations family before they sent their children to the orphanage to maximize their profitability. If you learn Poser you'll have a big jump at learning Bryce and Carrara, whose interfaces have an errie familiarity about them. If you take the time to do the tutorials in the Poser Manual it will go a long ways to your getting a grip on the program without spending hours and hours reading. My personal Poser bug-a-boo are the lights. I was hoping that Poser 5 would implement a positive change in this direction, but it doesn't look like it will. What's missing? Point lighting, you know the kind that you can put in a lamp or other models and make them look like they are emitting light. That having been said, if you were looking for a 3D MODELING program, you bought the wrong one. Poser has a limited set of primitives that you can make some props out of with some imagination, but they are apt to look like something you created with legos rather than real world objects.

Tomsde--interesting that you mentioned Bryce: for me, the Poser interface is WAY more usable than Bryce's (my most recent version of Bryce is B4). What a nightmare, just trying to select an element in a multi-element image! Ack!

I dunno. Any 3D app that 'I' could pick up and have characters walking around and doing things in a matter of hours (with manual in hand), has got to be easy by definition (I ain't all that bright). ;)

For me, it's been a bitch to learn. And without the help I've gotten here, I would have consigned it to the depths of the Pacific Ocean long ago. But with sticktoitivness and stubborness (two traits I have in excess, some would say) I'm finally becoming competent at it. It has certainly humbled me, but it's been like calisthenics for my aging brain, too. And now it's so much fun to do that I have to be physically torn from the computer from anyone who wants a bit of my time :)

You want an impenetrable interface? Try Amapi.

im not too concerned over the interface just yet. it is artsy, and the space could be used better. it is fairly easy to use. im more concerned with what it cant do. so here is just a list. feel free to add some i have missed. God Awful propack that still cant install itself, in the proper folders. Max crashes whenever i try to bring a poser file into Max. and yes i get it to work sometimes. other times even the files i was able to open the day before, wont open the next day. Having to use those stupid Magnets to deform a mesh. cant move vertices around. cant delete faces. cant weld vertices no modeling capabilities... no nurbs capabilities. walk designer and high heels....what a Joke...... material editor is such a joke..... joint editor is not too user friendly. no constraints on the characters ik. cant scrub sound files efficiently enough to use for lipsynching. .... im just getting started but its 5 oclock....

Ok, I've got to add my 2cents in on this one. When I first got Poser 4, about a year and a half ago, I was utterly confused... I got an old copy from my school who was "downgrading" some of their computers because of a few students making "porn" from the program. So instead of it being on the entire room, it was only on 4 computers, blablabla. I got no manuals, no books, nothing...just the program. Needless to say, I was in left field on my own with a few tips from teachers and the internet. I played with it for a few weeks and go so frusterated that I uninstalled it and tossed the cd in a case far away from me. I found it about 6 months later and said "what the hell" and reinstalled it. I played for about 3 hours and things started snapping into place. I've been doing it ever since and have even started teaching my brother and his wife the ways of Poser. I'm trying to convince the head of our graphic design department that getting Poser 5 would be a great asset to our program. (Hell, I even offered to tutor the class pro-bono because I like working with Poser that much LOL) They're "considering" the idea...who knows if it'll get implimented. I'm also eagerly awaiting the releast of P5, however, I'll have to wait a few months to save the pennies to be able to actually buy it. (Hrmm, I heard CL has a nice student discount though ;) ) devongrrl, my best advice, look around, play with it, ask lots of questions here and try not to throw your computer at the wall. It will eventually pay off. (Until you start trying to figure out how to import Poser figures into Bryce and just want to scream) LOL Good luck with the adventure. I'm sure you'll get it. Just hang on for dear life. :) -Kymm

Mixed feelings here: Couldn't agree with SAMS3D more ... and yes, try another app like MAX, etc. Bryce is the same way ... very different, but once you get used to it On the other hand (and I know I'm ranting and raving about this already in another thread) the lack of 3D acceleration (optimized for OpenGL hardware)for the main window makes it downright unuseable for mildly complex scenese. The fact that they (CL) have not addressed this in Poser 5 is absurd. Other 3D apps have had 3D acceleration for years. Get with the 90's CL, especially for a major release like this. It's unbelieveable.

Well, I just hope there will be a physical manual as well as the pdf version. You guys have any idea how hard it is to get the computer in the bathtub so you can read the manual? Kate (who does a good portion of her reading in the tub)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=212598&Start=1&Artist=Gorodin&ByArtist=Yes

I loved it. Got Poser 2 and it was nothing to take the arm of the skeleton and actually pose him. It was so exciting! A few minutes later I found out that I couldn't do the red hair I wanted on my avatar, and bitched and moaned for P4, LOL! But really, a child can sit with it and make things happen and move, and you should see their faces! It's a real doll house, and who on earth needs apps that force you to enter mathematical code?

The only time I ever opened my Poser manual was to stick the serial number sticker in it. Haven't looked at it since. Poser is one of the easiest programs I have ever opened. Just my experience! Can't say that it isn't hard for others because I have a LOOOONG list of programs that I cannot fathom even after reading the manuals. LOL! ;o)

I usually install programs, play with them for a while then uninstall them till the next time I feel like using them, but not poser, that's stayed on my harddrive since the day I first installed it. Rob

I learned Photoshop quicker than Poser. You really need more than a quick try before you judge the program.

If you think Poser is bad you must have never have tried Bryce! That is the only progarm I've ever learned (including Max and Alias) where I was truely lost without the manual. Don't get me wrong though, Poser's interface is piss-poor, I agree, too much wow-'em-at-the-computer-show gloss, sort of like Windows XP and Mac OS-X! Meanwhile, you go blind trying to read the tiny text on the dials.

Poser from a professional programming point of view: Very non-OS standard and not at all easy to use to those of us familiar with the Windows interface. If I were to have presented this to a group of my users, I'd have been shot down in a minute. No real button bars at all, let alone control over them. No list of recent files. No multiple window capability. Running at high resolutions makes captions unreadable. No directory control....(on and on). That said, it ain't really that bad. Poser was designed with one thing in mind, posing life figures without having to rebuild the object every time. Add standardized mapping, and you have a killer application. Nothing else really compares, and for a pretty low price. With the tremendous community of Poser developers and artists and it suddenly becomes a cult. There are freebies, good for sale products, and great tutorials to help. Oh, I forgot basic animation. The interface is non-standard to anything, but not too dificult to learn. There are hundreds of tutorials from the basics to the most esoteric to help. (And I have problems even getting a simple help file written for an accounting application.) I'd never give it to my user base, but I'd pay twice as much to get it for myself. Hopefully a lot of Poser 4's shortcomings will be fixed in Version 5. I'll find out as soon as it gets delivered.

very interesting. of all the programs i use, poser was 1 of the absolute easiest (even easier than bryce). you load a model, and "pose" it. so far, the tuffest programs on my list are povray, and lightwave. after effects can get scary as well........ oh well......

A programmer thinks Poser is difficult to use? Poser is easy. Perhaps you're so used to stuff being difficult, that, when something is easy it's hard.

as a complete newbie to the world of computers ,let alone 3d, Poser was the first program I taught my self, using the manual and the help files, once I stoped using the buttons and started using the dials it was dead easy.Acouple of years down the track I have a basic understanding of Photoshop and Cinema4 but still cant use Word or any other apps LOL

as was said in previous posts It depends on your previous history, I come from an art backround and from my point of view poser and even bryce were dead easy, but try and get me into excel and I'll run screaming for the hills. and don't even get me started on that black hole they call DOS. :)

quakes in fear at the mention of the word DOS

Wow , I guess I opened a whole mess of worms with my initial rant , lol I guess I will try and stick with it and see if I can get it to work before i throw the computer at the wall. Maybe Im just to spoilt with the Photoshop interface and need to open up my mind to new things. Thanks guys for the feedback

"It's so easy, even an idiot can use it. And some of the folks around here are PROOF. ;)"

Thanks for the chuckle Doc.

Sheesh! If you really think that Poser looks too difficult to understand, maybe you should start out with somthing even easier than that. Maybe somthing like... drawing in the dirt with a stick? Snicker!

now now Norbert be nice ;) Rob

Oh go on, I'll add something too, why not follow the herd? ;) I'm another one who started with Bryce (which I found really hard to figure out until everything suddenly clicked), and after that Poser wasn't too hard to get going with (although I'm still a beginner when it comes to the full range of features the program includes). It's more of a physical interface than a computer interface, for me. As people have already said, you have to think like an artist (or a movie director), not a programmer (or a mathematician). My son (who's 9 now) seems to have no difficulty with the the basics of selecting figures, posing them and moving them around to make a scene, and all I did was sit him down at the PC and let him play with Poser on his own. It tends to suggest to me that Poser IS intuitive, but only if you haven't already become used to working in other ways. I've been trying out some of the other 3D modelling applications that have an interface somewhat closer to the various 2D computer image packages, and in many cases it's just 'duh?' despite having used Paintshop and some CAD stuff, because it's so different to Poser. . They just don't do things the same way. It's apples and oranges- people might prefer one or the other but you can't really say one is 'better'. I guess Poser is really an entry-level application, though, so far as 3D software goes, and if it really is that different then its value as a training aid is dubious. If you've already got access to top-of-the-range software and know how to use it then there isn't much reason to use Poser other than to take advantage of the huge range of ready-to-use models, poses and light sets available for it... Actually, that's a pretty good reason! :^)

As everyone above says, all 3D apps are complicated at first. The steep learning curve goes with the territory. The test is whether the interface still gives you problems even after you've learnt it. For example, Mosca above obviously hasn't got the hang of Bryce, and doesn't realise that the control key allows you to point into a complex scene and select exactly the element you want. This is a key technique, and until you pick it up, you are toiling. With Poser, you have the choice of waving the mouse around and hoping the right element will be highlighted, or using the awkward menu system underneath the picture, which for body parts, is swamped with finger joints (which should have been in a nested menu). Look at something like camera shortcuts. For Bryce, they are all one-finger presses in the same part of the keyboard. Very easy to use. For Poser you need two fingers, they are much more awkward to remember and use. I'm pretty familiar with both Bryce and Poser now. With Poser I'm forever cursing when I delete the wrong thing because focus has suddenly shifted of its own accord, and find I can't undo the deletion, or when I can't zoom in to the correct part of the model in lateral view without miles of mouse movement, and a host of other poorly thought-out procedures. With Bryce I never have any of these irritations. The interface is really very carefully thought out. It takes time to learn how to work Bryce, but once you do, it's great. No amount of learning can get you over the shortcomings in the Poser interface.

I think the best advice really is to "switch off the programmer brain and try and find the artistic brain." I guess I see the great models that others have done and want to run before I can walk.

devongrrl, I don't know if this helps any, but you can hide the artsy interface in Poser 4 by typing in 'po2' (minus the quotes, of course). This will put you back into Poser 2's much plainer interface...I found out about this 'Easter Egg' from an issue of the now-defunct magazine '3D Artist'...