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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 22 9:27 pm)
Subject: European Poser 5 Customers = "Dumbass"?
What kind of unit cost calculation might that be? You take a box, and send it to Europe - what costs besides shipping? 329,- + 16% VAT = 381,64 489,- - 381,64 = 107,36 (EUR about = $) That's a lot of money for shipping, isn't it? By the way - i don't think that Curious Labs pays my VAT when i order something in the USA? Shipping is "free" at amazone.de - how can they do that?
If you were ordering from the usa to uk you would pay the $329 plus your shipping, which a half decent airmail would charge around $50. Now when it gets into the country you will (as it is merchandise and unless your local delivery man is a bit dodgy you will pay it) get charged your duty rate which last time I ordered was 11% of cost marked on the package, on top of that is usually a inspection charge (as they are nosy and think its somethng else most likely) and on top of all of that is the vat, which usually tends to double the price of a $300 or so item form teh states to uk. Or wait a week and get it from a palce l;ike computer unlimited for 150 or so - well they better be doing uk orders all I can say
Attached Link: https://www.curiouslabsshop.com/catalog.asp?ccode=gbr&type=PS4
Check the link. It's listed at 318 on CL's site. (retail) That's $487 at current rates. Or 497 euros, which is what I'll be paying in. So, I'll have to pay $265 or 270 euro for my upgrade from poser 4. That's 48% over the US price. Pretty stiff, I reckon. But do we have any option? Still, if I had to pay $50 air freight from the US, I'd be at $229 anyway. To add insult to injury, I'll be buying it through the UK and having it brought out to Italy, because I can't trust the Italian post. Not unless I find someone on mainland Europe to ship to a tiny chalet at 6,000 feet up in the Alps. I don't think so.... mac
Not to be a smart ass, but I am a big Cinema 4D user, a German company, how about there $500 + upgrade? is it the same in Europe as in the US? How about all those cool British 3D mags, Computer Arts, 3D world, Digit etc? Europe is miles ahead of the US in magazine's (I buy them as often as they come out) Do they not have something to say, CL advertises big time in them and they have offered Poser 3 for free, it seems odd.
no it's just zed showing off cause he can order poser5 now & we can't, heh never mind the postal service in his area might go on strike the day it's supposed to be delivered to him, that'll teach him to be smug ;) Not only that the Daft Americans are working out all the bugs in the ordering system for us, so we'll have a smooth ride when we get to order. Rob
Curious Labs and EGISYS jointly established the worldwide pricing system. The result was that we are selling Poser 5 to a similar price to the distribution/distributors worldwide (USA, ASIA, EUROPE, AFRICA,...). Due to currency risks we had to built in a "security zone" (you might remember the time when 1 Euro was only 86 US Cents) of around 7%. The sales prices in the European countries are established by the distribution channels finally and therefor are a matter of competition. In Germany e.g. there are already offers of far less than 489 + VAT. Under European law it is simply illegal to try to enforce similar pircing - there is no such thing like price maintenance in the software market. The distributors are more important in Europe than in the US if it comes to support, delivery and availabilty of software products. Only a small part of software sales in Europe are direct/mailorder sales. Without distributors it would be undoable for a company like us to deliver product and give support to customers that are speaking Finnish, Turkish, French, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, ....and to leave Europe: Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Hindu, .... This problem exists not only with software products in Europe, e.g. I can buy a Mercedes in Denmark up to 30% cheaper than in Stuttgart, Germany, where the car is manufactured... and it is cheaper in the USA as well. I assure you that our commitment to Europe and the European customers is very strong and together with our partners we hope to strengthen our European community. I hope that I was able to explain some of the reasons and give some answers although Im not a native English speaker. Thanks for your ongoing support for Poser. Wolfgang EGISYS AG
Wolfgang, Thanks for taking the opportunity to mention some of the thinking behind these price differences. Having previously been in the photographic retail trade for many years, I can understand the necessity for separate pricing structures between continents. And also, the importance of a network for customer support. It just always seems hard to bite the bullet and pay more in Europe than the USA. And I know competition does bring prices down, but I think you can forget that on a hot new product like poser 5. Maybe....but I tend to think the distributors will want to squeeze every last cent out of the people in the queue. Well, perhaps I'm being unfair....they have to eat too. The best thing poser users can do for each other is to post news of lowest European prices, so we can maybe find the best deals. mac
Wolfgang wrote: "Due to currency risks we had to built in a "security zone" (you might remember the time when 1 Euro was only 86 US Cents) of around 7%." But the EU price WITHOUT VAT is 48% higher than US price, and if we consider VAT (20% in Italy) it goes up to 78% !!! This is a LIIIIITLE more than 7% you'll agree. So, given that the 7% is your "security zone", where does the other 41% come from?? You are the producing company, so you don't have shares to pay for distributing the product. VAT is additional to the 48% price increase. So are you going to explain us that shipping costs from the US are costing you $137 per copy??? (137$ being the difference from US to EU price exclusive of 7% "security zone") Wolfgang wrote: "Only a small part of software sales in Europe are direct/mailorder sales. Without distributors it would be undoable for a company like us to deliver product and give support to customers that are speaking Finnish, Turkish, French, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish" But for those customers who don't need translation in support, or simply don't need support through distributors at all, like my case, you should also provide a direct sale channel for Europe, with a price comparable to that of US. But you don't. Why? Wolfgang wrote: "I assure you that our commitment to Europe and the European customers is very strong" I am sorry Wolfgang, but these are only words. The facts contradict them so far. When I go to buy Poser 5, I am asked money, I can not pay with words. So, also, when I buy Poser 5, I don't shop for words, as kind as yours are, but I am shopping for FACTS. Wolfgang wrote: "I hope that I was able to explain some of the reasons and give some answers although Im not a native English speaker." Again, I am sorry WOlfgang, but I find your eplanation and reasons largely insufficient, and not because of your English writing, which seems very understandeable and perfectly adequate to me. Best regards, Orio
Orio: I think I missed to explain one point: The main distribution channel in Europe are distributors. They are covering over 90% of our current sales and covering regions and market segments we could never reach with a direct sales channel. Therefor we are not competing pricewise with them in our webshop - most of the time the distribution prices are lower than ours. Please wait for the pricing on the upgrades (it is only 2 days away): here we are offering your suggested "direct channel" because we wanted to support our existing userbase. And if you apply your "fact sheet" to the upgrade prices I hope you will get a completely different picture. If not, you are free to hammer on us again. We think that the best way to develop the European market is together with distributors - and we think there is a lot of potential here in Europe - but if we are wrong - there is no way that we can miss it thanks to the community. Wolfgang
Attached Link: Reiss Studio, home of BodyStudio, the Maya Poser plug-in.
"But the EU price WITHOUT VAT is 48% higher than US price" heya, I think you should read a little into what wolfgang says. reading wolfgang's message he says: "The sales prices in the European countries are established by the distribution channels finally and therefor are a matter of competition. In Germany e.g. there are already offers of far less than 489 + VAT" So if you actually read his message, he's saying that you can already find deals for FAR LESS than the %48 that you're talking about in your post. It sounds like EUR $489 is the announced price for Europe. and hey, I have some news for you, the announced price for the US is $549!! everyone had teh same reaction until they found out what they could *really* buy the software for. So before you go off and say how insufficient the pricing is... does anyone have the actual figures for what the real discounted pricing is????
Wolfgang: since the difference after your 7% is $137, and considering that you as a company are not likely to spend more than $20-25 for shipping stocks, it's likely that your distributors are earning no less about $110-115 for EACH Poser 5 copy they distribute and sell (actually it's almost surely more because it's most likely that your prices for resellers are lower than for final customers, but let's stick with those final customer numbers anyway). And that $100-115 is a net income, since VAT is added to that. It corresponds to about 35% net reseller share. That's a superhigh share for reselling a $325 product that is likely to sell very well. I know some of the reseller market here for goods like books, CDs, DVDs, software etc. and I know that in most cases, resellers would jump for joy for a whole day if they could get a deal of a 20% net share on the aforementioned goods they distribute. Most of them would not hesitate to kill a parent in order to get a 35% net share! You say "wait for the upgrade prices". That may hopefully be OK for me as I own Poser 4 and can upgrade... but what if I had to buy Poser 5 new. Bad luck...
Reiss-Studio: One thing, is to have an announced price and a street price that is more or less determined by the same company (i.e. the producers) in the same country of origin. A whole different matter alltogether is to have an announced price and a street price determined by third party distributors. There may be countries more lucky, like Germany, where (according to the content of Wolfgang's words) no exclusivity contract is apparently existent, but as far as Italy is concerned, I can tell you that the distributor here (Pico) could and still can operate without competition with regards to Poser. This was almost surely determined (my guess) by the advantage of an exclusivity contract. Now I don't know if in occasion of Poser 5, this will be changed. I strongly hope so. In case they still have exclusivity for Poser 5, I can grant you that their final price won't be much (if at all) better than CL's announced price. They'll want to suck every juice drop they can out of the Poser 5 fruit.
I qoute myself: "...The result was that we are selling Poser 5 to a similar price to the distribution/distributors worldwide (USA, ASIA, EUROPE, AFRICA,...)". So, it should be clear where the price difference is coming from. If a market works - prices come down. In Germany e.g. we have not a single distributor going for the 489+VAT price...
Attached Link: Reiss Studio
Orio, you say: "One thing, is to have an announced price and a street price that is more or less determined by the same company (i.e. the producers) in the same country of origin. A whole different matter alltogether is to have an announced price and a street price determined by third party distributors." If you look at Wolfgang's e-mail, I think he's saying that it's ILLEGAL in europe to enforce a suggested street price. You can also read from wolfgang's post that ALL basically the distributers in USA and EUROPE are getting basically the SAME price! in the US the main program's price is $549!!! as you point out, even with the translation rates this is MORE than the european price of EUR 489. He also says that just like USA distributers, European distributers are starting to promote the lower prices. It also sounds like the upgrade you'll be able to get won't go through the distributer that you don't like (Pico) and it seems like he's hinting that it will be at a reasonable price
Attached Link: http://www.gamasutra.com/gdc2002/features/newell/newell_01.htm
It's getting loud in here... :) Run a search on my name, and besides the usual invective, you will eventually come upon a similar thread to this one, where "Starlet" the US Curious Labs employee organising the US upgrade, says explicitly that thier pricing in Europe will be at a level so as *NOT* to compete with thier European distributors. Which I took to mean that I'll get it cheaper by *NOT* buying direct from them, (or Egi.sys) Where this leaves you for upgrade pricing I have no idea, but (idealy, you'd buy it retail, a get a mail-in rebate) I'm expecting to pay 260-270 Euro's, (or perhaps that should be, "they are expecting me to pay...") Now, depending on strength of feeling, if you really wanted to "hurt" CL/Egi.sys (financially) the best thing to do would be to wait a while and then buy from a discount club or shop. Why? I used to work in a computer shop, (in the UK) and generally speaking the shop has a 45% markup (retail) on the distributor price, and they too, have thier markup (<10%) on the price they buy wholesale from the manufacturer. The distributors make their money on volume. The shops bear the risk, as, generally speaking, they don't buy it on "Sale or Return" grounds, (unlike newspapers). Which is why there are such things as "bargain bins" because otherwise the shop bears the loss. Not the manufacturer. Not the distributor. So if you buy direct from the manufacturer, then they're getting around 50% more than they would if they sold to a distributor. This is especially true at the launch of the product when the demand is greatest. After the initial 2-3 weeks they make more selling in bulk, this is the classic "retail distribution model" the link will take you to a realted atricle on gamasutra.com, (free registration required) it's a games software developers website, or simply throw the phrase into google. Incidentally, it's why Dell make so much cash, they're big enough to do thier own distribution, and offer "value added" customisation, etc. and untill recently they *only* sold direct. I'm going to wait until Friday, see what the pricing is, and then do the math, chances are it'll work out cheaper to wait a couple of months, and I've got 2 new games on my cube, one on the PS2 and 5 on the PC (went home recently :) to keep me occupied until then :P later jb
to Wolfgang: you wrote: "If a market works - prices come down." This can be true if there's competition on a market. But take ProPack. I was unable to get it from anywhere else than the distributor. Buying online from CL was not allowed. Buying from Amazon, Beyond etc. was not allowed. There was no other distributor in Italy that distributed it, only Pico could. And they set a final street price of more than 70% more than the US price. In England too, you couldn't find a place that sold ProPack for a better price. I have read reports that in Sweden the price of ProPack was doubled compared to the US. In France the situation was slightly better (price increase somewhere between +50% and +55%), but then if you buy there you'd get a French version of the software. In such conditions, you have a de facto monopoly in most European countries, where CL does not want to compete with the distributors, placing limits on Internet availability of the products, and where there is no competition between distributors, because distributors have exclusivity on their country sales and they don't want to lower the prices for Internet sales competition because that would damage them more than do them any good. This is how ProPack was distributed through most Europe. And where there's monopoly there can not be competition on prices. Now I'll be very happy to see that this had changed for Poser 5, but the first incoming signals are not encouraging. to Norbert: I see you too are a fine gentleman. Well this is a discussion forum, and things here get discussed. Including pricing policies, because whoever is or will be a paying customer has the "privilege" to discuss a price if he sees that the policy is not right to his opinion. Everything can be discussed in a democratic environment as long as the manners are polite (and yours certainly aren't). So if you don't like discussion and you don't like what you read, you just hit a browser button and go elsewhere on the site. Renderosity is big and has many many pages to visit. to JB: I don't want to hurt CuriousLabs or anyone else. I just want to buy Poser 5 at a fair price. A price that, after VAT, is bigger of 78% compared to the US price is NOT a fair price, period. Then there could be (or could not be) reasons for that, but the simple point is clear. to Rob: I agree, Poser 5 is sold at a very very good price, in the USA. Not so in Europe, whatever the reasons.
Orio, if it's any consolation, it works both ways, trust me. I've ordered music CDs from countries in Europe that, by the time they got into my hands here in Canada, were almost prohibitively expensive. When I was in Europe earlier this month, I was shocked to see how much cheaper they would have been had I bought them there and brought them home with me. Even within North America, where we're supposedly living in a "free trade" zone without tariffs, prices for many US things jump when they come to Canada. I don't know what CL is doing in re its Canadian buyers, but I imagine we'll be hit with some additional cost or other.
VS next time you're over here try & get to Watford, it's a town North of London, they have a really great music shop called CD Warehouse, you can pick up fairly recent stuff for as little as 4.99, it's mostly pre-owned but always in perfect condition. I've ordered Poser5 already 389 for the full version is a great price for me, I was prepared for the price to be double that. Rob
OK, So I was wrong, I figured dollar/pound parity inc VAT, when at 389 pounds, it's actually dollar/pound parity plus VAT, (332+17.5%) which is close enough to $329 to make no difference. So I figure the upgrade for 210-215 pounds (UK) The question is, what's the Euro price going to be? "Idea's on the back of a used fiver to..." :) Right, gotta go, got to upgrade a web server :) later jb
C1rcle, 389 corresponds to US$ 591. If you think that this is a "great price"... well I don't think you'll find many to agree with you. Or maybe you're financially wealthy and it doesn't make a difference for you to pay Poser5 262 dollars MORE than the US price. Well for me it will make the difference between being able to afford it, and not being able.
right now I can afford to pay whatever price they decided to set for poser5, lucky old me :) I did think the price would be nearer to 549 but it's way lower than that so I'm happy to pay more than our American cousins, come on it is poser after all ;) anyway I'm not sure when I'll have my wife in such a good mood to let me spend, "waste" her words, that amount of money on something she can't use. Rob
Attached Link: http://www.estec.esa.nl
Huzzah! It worked! I had to hack out a chunk of PHP from the base class of the entire site (Eeek!) But it lives breathes and functions again. "It's alive! Alive, I tell you!" We now return you to your regularly scheduled bitch about upgrade gouging. ;P I can afford it too, but that's not the point... later jb
Ehm, I don't need the box, CD's or a printed manual: just a download link. I'll print the PDF myself (if so required) and burn my own CD's.
Why bother talking about shipping and handling? So charge my creditcard for the $-price online, mail me a registration code and the link and Im as happy as a kid eating icecream.
BTW Wolfgang, a wide market is created by having happy customers....
Oh yep, I am an European dumbass too (although my girlfriend repeatedly reminds me that I have a cute one).
Maxx
Well, much as I laud your efforts Zed, I don't think we stand a chance of getting a cheaper price out of CL or Egi.sys. They'll have worked out thier pricing months ago, comissioned advertising, printed marketing "bumf", etc. We're not getting it cheap, (well, not as cheap as the Yanks) no matter how much we bitch, whine or plead. Ain't that right Wolfgang? Like I said, I'm going to wait, I suggest you do likewise. In a few months, it'll be going far cheaper, then of course there's always Ebay :) later jb
Praxis22, it's not really to get it exactly at the US price. I live in the real world and can understand the situations. It's in the figures (=amount) of the difference. In other words: I am ready to accept a +20 or +25 percent increase including VAT. That's sad if you consider that CL through EU web stores is reseller of itself (thus owing no shares), but still in the "logic" of overseas sales. What I am not ready to accept is the current +78 percent increase including VAT. This is TOO bad and TOO large for any reasonable justification/excuse.
jb we never will get any changes if we accept everything. Think back a couple of months: CL wanted to sell us a software with a very "special" copy protection. Due to the overwhelming efforts of the Poser community they drew back a piece of software which was already programmed and removed the copy protection. Every price can be changed if the customers (we) don't agree.
If you'd just install Zone Alarm it would never have made it off your PC in the first place. There's even a program called "incognito" on the mac that was built for this express purpose, to mask a program, so it can't register itself on-line. I've not looked, but I'm sure there's a PC tool that'll do the same thing. As for P5, code changes are one thing, price changes are entirely another. They've signed (possibly exclusive) distribution deals in Europe with big software distributors. Part of that agreement is that they will not compete with the distibutors on price, I imagine they're allowed a little leeway on upgrades, since most distrutors don't bother with them unless it's something large like windows. But while the software may belong to CL, the market to sell belongs to the distibutors, and you mess with them at your peril, esspecially if you're small fry like Egi.Sys and CL are. If you want it now, you pay the going price, or you wait, these are your choices. Sucks to be a consumer don't it! ;) later jb
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Dear US Customers, you get: Poser 5 Full Version Place your preorder today and Get Poser 5 for $ 329! That's a $ 20 Savings! or Upgrade from Pro Pack Upgrade to Poser 5 from Pro Pack for $ 129! Place your preorder today! The stupid customers in Europe can get: Poser 5 Full Version Win Intl English: Preorder Poser 5 Full Version Windows Today! Retail EUR 489.00 Or - even better - preorder it at amazon.de for EUR 509,00 (which is about 500 $ depending on the exchange rates). Question to Curious Labs: Is that fair? Did you forget that egisys is a German Company? HOME EGISYS Aktiengesellschaft Wilhelmstr. 44-46 72074 Tingen Is there any chance that Curious Labs thinks about the pricing policy for German and other European customers?