I'm not a "regular" in this forum, well I even don't come to this comunity on a regular basis, and when I do, it is mostly for the Cinema 4D forum. But in the last 24 hours, I read a lot on Poser 5 here, wise statements und bullshit alike. It may be a dead topic, but I have come to a descision, I want to share.

All things discussed here on the "protection" system for Poser 5 will lead to nothing, CL has come to an descision, and it will not listen to to the opinions of the users. All that can be said has been said, there is no need to discuss it any further.
So I will resume to only what is my point of view:

I don't deny CL the right to protect thier intellectual property, but I do deny them the right to "harass" me with this scheme as a paying client, giving me the feeling to do something illegal in using a software I bought, without telling them if and when I change my hardware. THIS IS NONE OF THIER CONCERN!
I feel tricked into buying the overpriced ProPack just for the ability to use Poser for pictures done with Cinema with an almost useless Plugin, a "ProPack" which will be more useless to me once I have Cinema R8 installed. And now there is this scheme, where other, less invasive measure would have been more apropiate.
So, I don't need Poser 5, I (will) have better things.
So, my descision is in the only language businesses understand: Lost sales.
Therefore:
I WILL NOT BUY POSER 5 OR ANY OTHER CL-PRODUCT AS LONG AS THEY KEEP UP SUCH SCHEMES!

This is not said to influence the descision of any other person visiting this comunity, everyone has to make his or her own one, but I would not mind if others would make the same one.

And at this point, if CL has to close its offices, to me it would be no loss. At current information basis, CL is, for me, on the list of companies not to make buisness with.

This is my opinion, and it will stay this way unless CL proves otherwise.

I agree CL will not change the protection, it's too late anyway. Although they may change it later. There was a thread on the issue last weekend in which plenty of people said they wouldn't buy P5 because of the protection method. We were asked to "wait until after the holiday" for a response from CL. No response yet. Many people feel ProPack was a ripoff for many different reasons. And if P5 doesn't turn out to be the great product that's expected, CL just might have to close their doors.

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/articleview/259/1/48/

There was a lot more to PPP than just the exporters and the validation was quite painless. If you don't buy P5 you're a fool...

I think the link that kupa posted answers almost everything that people have been concerned about regarding the security measures. I haven't been influenced by kosmokrat's statement, I was influenced by seeing poser5 renders & kupa, nosfiratu & others being really excited about Poser5, that's why I've ordered it & I'm going to enjoy using it as much or even more than I've enjoyed using poser4. Rob

Hm, answer was given in a second thread, knowing that the question was asked in the first thread? Think of it like I do. It says enough, I think. I,m now as frustrated as I was happy as I,ve readed about the new Poserversion. No need to think that you can live without my money. Right Kupa? Robert

Well, for one thing, the first thread was locked and couldn't be responded to.

Yep, I just found Steve's response, sorry for speaking before checking (although it was kind of far back ;) ) Saxon, people who don't need the new features would be fools to buy P5, at least at this time. There is only one significant improvement (as far as I can tell) to the old Poser 4: the new Library system. Everything else seems the same. Many might not consider that one improvement to be worth $129.

What's the problem here!!! Ok its a drag having to go through this rigmarole_ BUT you know why its thought neccessary??!! Its because some arseholes out there think that free and warez stuff is somehow their god given right. And sure there will be hackers and other criminals out there who have the system cracked within days-but it'll stop the casual warez user who thinks he's doing no harm to anyone.Bullshit. The guys at CL have families and livings to make just like other decent folk.If the company thrives our community thrives. If its undermined by idiots who think a free copy is a great wheeze then we all lose.If you are going to boycott the product because the company is trying to protect your investment, well, more fool you. I for one am happy for CL to make sure that all users are legitimate(in both senses of the word!)

The main reason I am excited is the new rendering engine, and the library system, the cloth system, the face room. All of these seem significant to me.

If you are going to boycott the product because the company is trying to protect your investment, well, more fool you I,m trying to protect MY investment, Noggin. If you would have readed the other thread you would know what I,m talking about. Ooops, you,re right Jcleaver. It,s a little bit difficult to answer on a locked thread. So I,ve to say 'Sorry, Kupa'. I was a little bit to fast with my answer here. Robert

Some Will ...
Some Won't ...
So What ?

... and when the dust settles ...

... and the absolutely beautiful pictures begin to appear here on Renderosity <---(just possibly the greatest web site in the world for graphics artists) ...

Those that did not participate in using Poser5 ...

... MAY reconsider their decision. IMVHO!

I'm excited and ...

I can't wait and ...

I will participate in whatever security scheme that Curious Labs has used to try and protect it's investment.

PERIOD!!!

cheers,
dr geep <--------------- hoping my P5 is 'in the mail'
;=]

I find it a big pain that they even charge for the software. Until they start giving it out for free i am boycotting them as well.

I'm with you Kosmokrat! CL can live without my money. I don't blame tham for protecting there property - but i'll be damned if i'll mail them everytime i make a change to my hardware - That IS none of their damn business. Saxon; Read his mail again! He's a Cinema user - why would he need P5?

Doesnt bother me a bit. I am so use to owning apps that do things like this that I would wonder why CL isnt. I am just glad CL is still here with all its great people. Kupa, Anthony, Scarlet and all the rest. Thank you for an incredible app. Ron

(shrug)... As a Linux Freak who went out of way to ditch a pre-installed copy of Win XP on his laptop in favor of Win2k because of XP's activation spyware and BS, I'm still buying Poser 5 with no hesitation. Why? Because: 1) I have nothing to hide. I want absolute proof sitting on file with Curious Labs that I'm not a warez kitten, unlike more than a couple of users prolly are. No accusations at anyone in this thread, just stating a basic fact. To clarify: I strongly suspect that the reason some folks won't go to P5 is because they warezed P4, and are secretly hoping that a P5 crack becomes available real soon. Again, no accusations are to be made against any individual in this thread, period. 2) P5 != Operating System. If this registration thingy fails and causes Poser to crash and burn, I'm not out a boatload of data, like XP users would be. 3) I'd trust Curious Labs a HELL of a lot more than I'd trust Microsoft. 4) If you think P5's registration routine is bad, try getting your mitts around setting up a legal copy of 3DS Max, Inventor, Maya, Lightwave, Shake, or other high-end proggies... P5 is a complete kitten to register by comparison, and there's no hardware dongle to lose. 5) How many folks here use Windows XP, Office 2k/XP, etc? ALL of those require the same damned process to activate, yet I'm willing to wager that a few of those who complain about P5 are using Windows XP right now! /P

;=]

Although, I knew the protection after I ordered the P5, I dont change my mind. I can live with the small inconvenience. It is nothing to do with the P5 quality. My main interests are the quality of the Poser5. I respect the right to protect themselves. If I work hard on something, I want to protect it. I, myself, dont consider the protection an important issue to judge the P5

Opps sorry i meant starlet. Larry you still around. If so speak up!!!! Ron

to WISARDOFGAUZE Where have you been, man ??? Haven't you read the feature list and the discussions concerning P5 ??? The library system is one of many new improvements... How about the ability to develop hair. The fact Pro PAck is integrated into P5...for those that did not buy PP..they now have it...minus the plugins-, but they're on the way. Face Room...use photos, face sculpting, etc etc the new renderer--hybrid micro-polygon and Ray Trace render engine with subdivision surface rendering of polygons. Dynamic Cloth... come on--this is a major upgrade..... >Saxon, people who don't need the new features would be >fools to buy P5, at least at this time. There is only one >significant improvement (as far as I can tell) to the old >Poser 4: the new Library system. Everything else seems >the same. Many might not consider that one improvement to >be worth $129.

Boy, I'm tired of the self-rightousness. You don't like feeling like your criminal? What have you done that security would make you paranoid? It's like this applicant we had today. He came to the building we work in, was stopped by the security guard and asked to wait for an escort. He threw such a hissy fit that he had to be taken off property by the police. yelling things like I'm not sadam hussain. Sound alot like all you nay sayers to me. I have bought cl on the new features that it has. That is the hair room, cloth room, content paradise and collision dections and things like wind and new renders(for those of you that didn't pay attention. People have no paitience or tolerance any more....poor you with inconvience. Security has been address, they are going to sell your info. Other than that quit whining.

Oh, just wait till you see what I can do with this and how well it'll animate. Get ready to eat your heart out...

This registration is relatively innocent and not that much of problem in and of itself. It is, however, just part of an overall trend toward which all computing is being steered. Before long, with the system that is the (already publicly admitted) GOAL of M$, you will HAVE to pay EVERY single month in order to use your operating system from M$ (probably around XP v3 or so). If you don't pay them EVERY month, you will be cut off, and totally unable to access any and all of your own files. If you have to pay somebody else to access your own work, who does it really belong to? A lot of the reaction to this protection "scheme" is really a reaction to the overall, rather scary trend toward propritary software manufacturers having complete control over YOU and me and everyone else. Lordy, when the HELL is the Linux community going to get it together so that some version of Linux will run ALL windows programs and people will actually have some choice again?? There are zillions of people who would drop Microslop like a red-hot turd if Linux systems that actually can run everything were available.

Well I'm slightly less concerned about the authorisation, after reading the FAQ...as long as it works as advertised :o) Overall I think it is a fair way of protecting their investment, although like Allen9 I'm very concerned about the trend and where this is all taking us as PAYING CUSTOMERS. As for upgrading?...well not yet;o). Cinema4D XL R8 is being released soon, so that takes priority for me. I'm sure that CL have made certain it will not happen again, but the uproar when PPP was first released with all them bugs has made me a more patient person. P5 is a lot more complex then PPP, so I think I'll be a coward and watch other people pay to beta test it first. I do hope that I'm wrong and putting my order in soon though :o) Cheers

Security, security, that's all I see CL doing. What's wrong with that, we all lock our houses and cars, this aint the 1920's no more. Now Invasion, spying, and manipulation, that's different and that's why I won't go to WinXP no matter how stable others say it is. CL has my vote and I will definatly be buying (just looks like I'll have to wait till next year - SO YOU ALL BETTER LEAVE A COPY LEFT ON THE SELF FOR ME, YA HEAR!!)

Ah yes, Dot Net looms above us. M$ has always wanted it all hasn't it. HOWEVER I still don't equate CL with M$...not even close. CL is actually part of the community in maintains with it's software.(thank you) M$ would probably have us all killed if given half a chance. As the only company that has done something the drippings of Metacreations run off, I must say I love you guys. There arn't that many companies that get this involved, in fact I can only name one other.

but Renderosty's slowness is catching me out, with "timeouts" every time I post ;o/

Guys' don't forget the node-based material shaders. that may be the stelth feature that makes this version of poser a must have for illustrators. I didn't get this feature at first but after reading over the manual a couple times I want this more then almost anything else. look at the skin node for example, adjustable translucency! the reason I suppport CLs registration scheme is Photoshop does anyone wonder why the most popular and widely used graphics program costs 800 dollars and adobe has miserable margins? casual pirates! I know dozens of people who have photoshop on their computers and and none of them paid anything for their copys in fact several offered to load their copys onto my computer suplying the password that was supplied to them. I cant afford to buy the retail version of Photoshop but I'm quite happy with my $89 PSP7 I turned them down. these people didn't buy cracked versions most of them wouldn't know where to look or would be too nervous of downloading a virus instead of a crack. CL is not doing anything that most other software companies won't be forced into doing in the near future.

Would be nice to be able to buy it. I pre ordered like a bunch of folks here. Just now got an email saying they can't ship it to a P.O. box. I ordered it using my address at my house. So what is up? I am ready to cancel and just say to hell with it, too much of a hassle. Sent them an email back with the info, but it will probably put me at the bottom of the list. Tried to order it next day when I did the pre-order and their site was screwed up and could only take regular ground shipping. I think I'm done, don't need it that damn bad. Marque

No software company will be FORCED into doing stuff like all the invasion and spyware in XP (and much much more in future versions). There are other ways to go that don't ASSUME that every single user is a likely thief. As I said, this particular protection scheme by CL is NOT the main reason people are unhappy - it's just a symptom of an overall trend that makes many people very VERY nervous. A trend that does not HAVE to happen, unless complacent people let it. I am among the many who will NEVER own a computer with XP on it, nor will I sign over full ownership of everything I ever create to some greedy software company just so I can access my own damn files.

"M$ would probably have us all killed if given half a chance" Now THAT'S a paranoid statement if ever there was one! They wouldn't kill me, they don't have all my money yet. :) As far as P5 goes, I voted with my credit card, pre-ordered even knowing about the protection scheme... Thanx CL!

Yet again, CL is not addressing render farms or efficient use if you are animating. I have asked about this a few times and this is never addressed. The assumption that anyone who wishes to do this is a criminal or pornographer is out of line. It's about meeting needs of the consumer. Hopefully something satisfactory will be worked out before the Mac version comes out.

Ok, well, that FAQ does a very nice job of answering "what" and "how". I still want to know WHY Curious Labs chose a security method that was known to be (in some cases fatally) unpopular in their intended market. Why was this particular method chosen over a number of equally effective methods?

Very Good Question!

Allen - Linux can already run 100% of it's own programs and 80% of all commonly used Microsoft compatible programs, including the entire MS Office suite... Give it 10 months, and it'll run practically all MS-compatible programs. That's a damned sight better than what MS can claim. Also, you missed a great big point - If people get disgusted with paying rent on their computer, they'll vote with their wallets and go get something better. Instead of whining about "oh, when will Linux do this/that", perhaps you ought to get off yer duff and help out a little? After all, Linux is about community, not about carping on some corporation to get things done for you. FyreSpirit: Why? It's simple - they want to protect what they made. /P

bleah - forgot the /u tag... my bad.

FAQ still doesn't say why we should trust them even though they don't trust us. But like the others said it looks like CL can live without my money too. Question is, will this protection scheme have the opposite effect as to what it was intended for.

"It will be helpful for you to describe your reasons for requesting additional Response" I respect that they want to protect the soft but I don't like what I read above. What reason is OK? They should not care!!

Attached Link: http://www.brickhousedigital.com

"Oh, just wait till you see what I can do with this and how well it'll animate. Get ready to eat your heart out... " Yah... The 12 people on this forum who actually have the patience to do animation with Poser, are gonna have a ball.

People here sure seem to hate Microsoft. Why is that? I'm pretty happy with the MS products I own. As far as the protection, I still think it would be much more acceptable to buyers if it actually did prevent piracy. In the real world honest people have to go thru hassles because of thieves. Be we put up with it because the thieves have to go thru the hassle too; and are prevented from stealing or even caught stealing. But in the software world, ONLY the honest people get the hassle. The thieves will get a cracked version and go merrily on their way.

"Usually, the loudest whiners are those who wouldn't buy it anyways" Or maybe they are people that actually actively tried to help out CL in the past with fighting warez and are a little less then happy at seeing what the returns are for legitamate users. But I digress, there has been more than enough d*ck swinging on both sides of this matter. Like they say: Arguments on the internet are like participating in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded.

Penguinisto, you completely missed my point. Would you care to try again? (Hint: read the whole thing.)

Will it come with French Fries? I like French Fries. If it comes with French Fries, I'll buy it. I just hope the ketchup doesn't slow down my hard drive. Or leave stains in the cloth room. Or make Michael so fat he no longer fits his exotic chainmail warrior g-thong. But most importantly: the French Fries.

"I think the link that kupa posted answers almost everything that people have been concerned about regarding the security measures." I liked this one best: "If you do not have a connection to the Internet, you can contact Curious Labs via email" :-). First draft maybe read "Surely you know someone you can mail your key to and have them send it by email":-). That said, the protection scheme seems pretty much par for the course nowadays with all the warez copying going on between the China Sea and the Volga (folks who have traveled a bit & seen a retail stores full of American and European software for pennies an app know what this system is an attempt to curb), & I'll be ordering P5 tonight:-).

No one denies CL the right to protect their stuff. The hassle may end up being less than we think, time will tell. I didn't want to shell out for a HD until end of the year, but I'm going to try and get one this weekend (I don't live in a town where computer parts can be bought, have to mail order or take a weekend drive to get stuff) Here's one bright side to it all. If the protection works, and the legitimate buyers find themselves exclusively in a community competing with other legitimate buyers, then this could be a plus for the end user. Imagine loosing out on a contest, etc, to someone who has a warez version. Right now anyone can throw out art in P3 cuz I think that was finally made available on a magazine some time ago. Almost anyone can throw out art made in Poser cuz if you don't have it, some guy in Russia probably has a free crack download. Not anyone can throw out P5 art, cuz not anyone can get it. Only those who choose to make the investment. I believe that if this scheme works, the community will be better off. Our investments will be protected. The software will have value. If the scheme fails, then I don't want to be hassling with it any more and I hope CL will release a patch that bypasses it. So don't worry, be happy. Have another Corona. Oh, as for some of the other comments, CL has been active in this community and shown that they do care. The upgrade pricing is a blessing. I see a good wholsome company in their professional and timely responses. Grouchy as I may be from time to time, CL does get my vote of confidence. As for CL going down in the future, well, all things are possible, but I for one think that P5 can vault them into a more pro arena and that only means future success.

"Haven't you read the feature list and the discussions concerning P5 ???
The library system is one of many new improvements...
How about the ability to develop hair.
The fact Pro PAck is integrated into P5...for those that did not buy PP..they now have it...minus the plugins-, but they're on the way.
Face Room...use photos, face sculpting, etc etc
the new renderer--hybrid micro-polygon and Ray Trace render engine with subdivision surface rendering of polygons.
Dynamic Cloth..."

Dave, stop. I'm getting excited. :) Mine won't be here till next week sometime.

Quote by Allen9 -

"Lordy, when the HELL is the Linux community going to get it together so that some version of Linux will run ALL windows programs and people will actually have some choice again?? There are zillions of people who would drop Microslop like a red-hot turd if Linux systems that actually can run everything were available."

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Okay...that's all I had to say. :oP

For those of you who are buying, shouldn't you be reading your P5 manual!?! For those that are not, no amount of discussion is going to change anything. Get over it.

I've had at least a dozen different security schemes used for differing programs. Everything from a doggle that attached to the printer port, to red glasses to pick out an image on a piece of paper, to looking for a specific work in a manual every time I used a piece of software. They all worked. They all had their problems. I just don't care anymore. It'll work for me. If I have to move it to another computer, I can regegister, or if that proves impossible, I'll just move the whole application and settings (nice to be a programmer). Or someone will crack it, they always do. The security method really isn't that important. And porting it to Linux will still require the same security. If you don't like the system, don't buy it and do without. CL is coming out with a great product, and whatever conditions they have, I chose to live with. I know this is an emotional issue for some people. I respect that. But we keep making the same points over and over again. If you don't like the method, let CL know via email, and don't spend your dollars. If enough people don't buy because of the method, it'll get changed. I've already spent my cash, and I want P5 NOW! I'm looking forward to what I think is the next big topic here: "OH MY GOD! SEE WHAT I DID IN P5! - Ain't this NEAT!"

pdxjims has kinda "said it all." And I agree. Thnx pdxjims. ;=]