"As for all the other silly mis quotes and flaming above I'll just ignore" That doesn't surprise me - if you think that they were silly things for you to say, then that's ok, but for the record, what I posted were direct quotes (very much in context if you go read that thread).

LOL at Spanki

I'm an artist and you're not. You're an artist and I'm not. You know it doesn't really matter because your opinion isn't the one that counts and mine means even less. Somewhere, somewhen, somebody is going to look at an image and they'll decide for themselves whether there was an artist behind it or not. So sometimes we're artists and sometimes we're hacks and either way it's okay by me. - Jack (who used to have an ego until he discovered it wasn't worth the hassle...)

okay...i am just loud mouthed poppi...who has not sold anything, here....but has survived off of my own little "private" sales. until, i moved "uptown", in what goes for my town...way, small. poser is alot of fun. it makes me a child again. yup...it makes me that little girl whose mom did not buy all the current barbie clothing...my grandmother was a dollmaker. she sent clothing. okay, the grandmother's clothing held me for a bit. but, but, but...we little girls began to tie little ribbons on our barbies....others had their moms buy new dresses. the rest of us....a little less spoiled, had our moms buy us scissors, and, materials. my mom was real stupid...but, hey mom..you up there....you were beautiful....anyway, she always bought too much material. it could be shared...doh, maybe she was smart. anyway, those of us whose mom's did not buy us the bestest, newest, grandest, for that week barbie clothing, had tons of fun making our own, with tiny stitches. i am just another product of my environment. i did go on to get a master's degreee in fine and applied art. even then i knew that that and money could get me a phone call.

Oh oh, here we go again! This topic has been rehashed over and over in the past. Ahhhh!!!! :o Melanie

"Unbelievable... Tell me this is a joke " Sorry guys, I can't let this go on. I'm going to have to spoil the fun. ["Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! But... !} Nope. Gotta be done. You caught us out. It's a joke. See... we all got together one day in the secret merchants forum, at the behest of our ringleader, ClintH - whoshalleverbereffered to only as "C", and... being bored silly, said amongst our selves "Gee, been a long time since we had a major product rant followed by a merchant lynching, and the natives are restless". And then we all loked at each other and said "Er... so?" And "C" said "Never mind that - it's got to be done. Everyone is getting bored with Poser 5..." So, we put our heads together and hammered out a plan. And looked upon the plan and said something like "kEwL! Any volunteers?" And Eowyn, brave soul that he or she is... well, you get the picture. Don't blame Eowyn. It was mostly my idea. And it worked too. ;]

So, Tisa... slapping a bit of dull green on a box is your version of art? Slightly dribbling over a photo is art? What makes you the expert, or the one to make fun of utilities... you don't seem to be qualified to judge, going by your gallery. Oooooh, right... beauty is in the art of the whatever. And why the f should we have to reinvent the wheel - the tools - over and over again just because you don't like what we use? Go play in your sandbox.

Tisa you might want to check Fred Miranda's website, he sells PS actions to...oh my God...photographers

Well here is my two cents on the matter, Personally I think it is great that people make these little products to help make these programs easier to use, for beginners its great starting point and eventually it will teach them to start to do things with out these little tools, for example before I got my associates degree in programming, purchased an HTML editor, that basicly design pages for you by pressing a tool bar button it added the coding nesscary for it to work, eventually after seeing the code enough I started typing in the code by hand and fully learned html. just like these tools they are a starting point to teach you techniques. Also someone made the comment that if there things out there to make jobs easier then use them, think about this, if it wasnt for programming langues like Visual Basics, Visual C++ guess what Programmers like myself will be making all these neat little programs using binary code and if you know what the is like combantions of 1 and 0 make up one letter such as the letter A for example now imagin creating a whole program using 1 and 0's. lots and lots of typing. So with that being said then I say go on creat these products to make learning easier for us new people...:-P Dark Raven has spoken thank you all and good night

OK, so here I am again. Actually, just checking to see if people are STILL giving Tisa the attention she doesn't deserve. OK, so, I don't have a gallery worth discussing. But I don't post messages in the forum as if I'm the GOD of artistic decisions. I post comments on other people's art saying, "I might have done this or I might have done that." But I NEVER speak as if I am some sort of authority! I just say what I think about something. But, Tisa seems to think that she has the right to pop into this forum and speak as if she has some sort of authority to point at this or that and designate it as being art or not. She reminds me of people I work with. They spend too much time pondering what other people's ability are. And they do so to throw ... Never mind. When she has a gallery that can compare with the incredible galeries I have seen here, then, coupled with some sort of respect, can she make the comments she has made here. But from what I have seen, she needs something this community can't give her.

I have a friend who can find Prada, Versace, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, etc (you get the point) at Kmart prices.

Now that's art!

By the way, how's the air up there Tisa?

You are lumping all poser users into some same category of equal ability with these little arguements of yours. Many people have pointed out galleries where people have taken poser beyond it's limits and I guarantee you there are newbies here today that will be able to do the same in the future.
Is it art? Hell yes. Are there plenty of newbies in the learning stages? Yes. Should those learning avoid posting work at this stage to avoid upsetting your sensibilities? Hell no.

You need to give people a break, get off your high horse and concentrate on whatever it is you want to do.

Unless of course what you want to do is create problems and not art.

Attached Link: http://share.studio.adobe.com/Default.asp

I was one of the people who bought the Photoshop actions from both Eowyn and Coleus.

I am most grateful for them and use them along with other actions I have either learned to make or downloaded.

If folks are interested in more actions here is a free website you can sign up and get many great actions for photoshop as well as other items for PS as well.

http://share.studio.adobe.com/Default.asp

Warm Regards,
Nancy Deer With Horns (SophiaDeer)

perhaps a bit mizzundaztood, but isn't the point .......... "I hate someone else's work /stuff /product then I bitch / complaint about something that doesn't make sense at all ?" whatever you are trying to say be sure that your words reflect your persona...........

I use Eowyn's photoshop actions time and time again to enhance my photographic work. I spend an unbelievable amount of time and effort to get just the right 'shot', just to have it ruined due to the fact I could never get across the right mood. My partner me both sets as a little suprise and I just love them...so no, they are no joke. They are a bloody damn good product. Cheers, -Des

Tisa, Just because some use filters, does it mean they are not putting in as much work and thought in to the image? I dont do any post work really on my images, but does that mean I should be put in a gallery meant for those who dont make an effort, even though I still spend hours posing, modelling, and texturing? Quality isnt judged by how they do the work, its how the work looks.

Not getting into the thing of 'what is art' too darn difficult. However. What is an artist? An actor is an artist (only his mum and dad made him, not an artist) The people who do the scenery aare artist. The team who make the props are artists. The one who write the story, artist scrip, artists director, artist (The person who designed the pattern on the cups in the canteen is an ptobably artist, but I digress) CGI models, artists Textures, artists Poser people, artists Take em out the box and bung em together, art!, doh! , no art ??? may need something else here. I know, AN ARTIST A piece of art can, and has been produced from anything from garbage, fruit, paints, charcoal, wood, granite, ........, and dare I say computers. The artist creates the image from imagination, and uses whatever is at his/her disposal to achieve it. I f the end result is what they set out to achieve it is successful art. If it involves, pleases, horrifies, or stirs emotion of some kind in others it can be descibed as successfull art. There always luddites knocking the next technological jump, people knocked the car, calcuator, telephone, record, any number of machines and of course computers, dismissing them as unnecessary and 'what would be left for people to do' Howevermuch comes out of the box in computer art, an artist will always have to have imagination at some level to produce something worthwhile and there will always be very talented artists pushing the envelope and producing stuff with the wow1 factor at the top level. Most of us will flounder around very happily in between. Like most things in life, Have Fun! and Support rather than knock others. Have a good one ;-)

OK, Tisa, do you create everything you use in your daily life, all yourself? Do you sheer the sheep, spin the thread, weave the cloth, then sew all your own clothes? You buy them, don't you? When you fix dinner, do you raise the cattle (or the crops), slaughter (or harvest), clean, dress, then finally cook it on cooking utensils you've made yourself from materials you've mined or created? How many oil painters out here don't go to the art supply store and buy their oil paints, brushes, canvases, etc. to complete their work? Do sculptors go out into the wilderness and dig up all their own clay? No, they buy it from an art supply store. Caligraphers go to the art supply store to buy their pens, paper, and ink. What the heck is wrong with buying the supplies needed to create digital art? How is that any different from any of the other art genres that I mentioned above? Lady, you sure opened a can of worms on yourself here. You see, this topic has been discussed numerous times over the years that I've been a member of the variious 3D art forums. You didn't come up with an original rant here. And every time it's come around again, the rest of the community proves the ranter wrong. If you find it such a waste of time and effort to create digital art, then why are you using the program and creating it yourself? The mystery of the day..... Melanie

I'm afraid anyone who considers a request to show me an example of their complaint and help me understand it to be "silly mis quotes and flaming" is unworthy of my time, so I'll bow out now.

Yes, traditional artists buy their paints and canvases, and 3D artists buy props and textures. But if a traditional painter buys a canvas with "painting by numbers" on it, one might regard the end product as less than a work of art. Some parts of the 3D creation process (for instance lighting) are an integral part of the composition. Putting in a ready-made lighting set means that the artist won't learn an important skill, and worse, will get the idea that lighting is something extraneous to the composition.

marketplace has died, can't see it, bugger! :)

im sure iv said this before but it seems ppl still dont know what are is...... art is not a pose or a texture.. and its not a camera or some paints art is using the tools you have to bring something you thought up to life from what you say tisa a sculptor has to make his own chisels and hammers... does he also have to go and cut his own stone?? 31,000 years ago little man made some drawings on a cave wall with a piece of charcoal, and they are still few of the best drawings iv seen... its note because what he used its because of how he caught the beasts... the movement, the power and the spirit and in a few simple lines when you make art its not supposed to be and effort it supposed to be a way of expressing yourself.. whether its through music, dance, software or painting you have to ask yourself why do i call myself an artist? is it because of the tools you use? or is it because of what you make? two of the greatest artist i know are the Female and the Male... when you combine those two you get the most amazing art of all.... Life and it doesn't matter what tools were use to make it so before you go condemning things stop looking through your eyes and try looking through theirs... look at what the see and look at what it really is how many ppl have looked at your work and dismissed it for rubbish without knowing the emotions and reason you made it? what im trying to say is camera's, paints, poses, texture and actions are all tools... its how you use them that makes art im guilty that as well doing that as well.. i look at a chisels and see a tool but to a blacksmith it is his art he created that with the best of his skill Eowyn is a brilliant artist and she is just sharing her tools with us... how we use them is up to us enough said i hope at least iv given you something to think about.. kyle

YES!! MEN, GRAB INTO YOUR PANTS AND USE YOUR TOOL!! Seriously though, art is the feeling and the quality of how its conveyed, not what tools were used.

Also, I forgot to add that, arent we as artists supposed to buck conformity and do our own thing? Tisa, you want use to follow rules and structure which hampers creativity.

Folks, I'd like to point out that seems to be exactly what Tisa wants. From my look at Tisa's gallery and postings this person just likes to stir people up and tick people off. So I'll continue to enjoy people's artwork on here and try to avoid the twits like this...most of the people on here are worth listening to, regardless if you agree with them or not, but this person is just doing this stuff to get a rise out of people.

Good points Phantast. Hopefully the same people who keep repeating the same old argument about painters not making their own brushes may understand a little better now. "31,000 years ago little man made some drawings on a cave wall with a piece of charcoal, and they are still few of the best drawings iv seen... its note because what he used its because of how he caught the beasts... the movement, the power and the spirit and in a few simple lines" Exactly. He or she probably did not swop a piece of mamoth for someone to do the painting for them and then trace over the top. Melanie like so many others here you completely fail to understand a very simple point.

sigh you missed it didnt you... no but they probably did use each others tools.... exactly want Eowyn is letting us do thats my point your still looking at the tools not the art

no didn't miss a thing. We all have the same tools ie Poser. What eowyn and others, who provide light sets, poses etc, are doing is doing the work for us not providing tools. The painting by numbers example quoted above is a good example. Or the cave man who borrows his mates piece of charcoal and produces an image is the artist. The caveman who traces over an existing picture and does not add anything of their own in the way of creativity is not. I really do not know how to explain it in a more simple way for you.

No Tisa, YOU miss the point! Let me see if I can lower the discussion to a level you can understand... (ratcheting word level to what MIGHT be something you can understand) Give a few ready-made props, a texture, Vicky (for example), lighting, and poses to 10 people. Let them do something with those items. Then let them post a picture. I am positive some will produce something that sucks and others will produce something that shows artistic talent. It's that simple. Now, just because the people who did well with the "tools" that were given to them doesn't mean they aren't artists. Besides the technical requirements needed to move things in Poser, one needs the ability to "see". And that's what people are talking about. I consider myself an above-average photographer. I took classes in it in college. We all had good cameras. We all had assignments. Nature awaited and some "saw" it and others did not. The people who "saw" it were more artistic than those who did not. Even though NOTHING was required other than camera and film (things "given" to them). I was amazed at the angles and ideas that people used to complete the assignment. NOW, having said that... Yes, the person who can make textures, props, etc. AND put them all into a pleasing render are more of an artist than those who pick those things up and use them equally as well. Some might say the ability to make props and textures, etc. is more technical than artistic. I wish I could do all of it, too. I can hardly do any of it, though. BUT, I don't pick on anyone or make nebulous generalized remarks like you do, either. You see, I can appreciate artistic endeavors no matter what the artist was supplied with. My advice to you is also simple. Make friends here...not enemies. And, although you are so perfect you don't need assistance, one of these days you might. There are SO many generous people here to help you it seems a shame to alienate them the way you are doing. Failing that...go somewhere else.

I just want to put my two cents in. First I need some information. Tisa how old are you? Not trying to be insulting. Being young is wonderful. Judging by Tisa's gallery most of the images smack of budding sexuality. Which makes me question her age. Also her comments. Maybe not meant as bad as they sound but just the arrogance of youth and trying to sound more experienced in the forum. Again not an insult. We were all young once ( I think) it's been a while for me. I think a new addition should be made to the old saying "never discuss politics or religion, now the addendum "art" LOL Art like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I know when I'm working on a piece no matter what it is PSP or Poser I'm always thrilled when I'm working on it then I pick it to pieces when it's through, and not satisfied with it no matter how long I work on it. I for one am very grateful for all the technology. I wouldn't want to live like Van Gogh. Most of us here have lives outside our "art" and the time saving utilities are wonderful.

ChuckEvans If someone put the film in the camera, set the exposure, aperture,set the lighting,posed the model, framed the picture without any instuctions from you and all you did was release the shutter; the picture turns out, after someone else has developed and printed it then perhaps a little dodgeing and burning, to be wonderful, who is the artist?

learning is done by exaple and copying this done before us thats how you learn.... then you add and improve on that once you know how art is in everything whether it is traced or not an action is a tool nothing else you use it to help with an effect then you improve on it you learn how that effect was created my looking at how the action was made....

Tisa if you think it's that easy, you really are clueless

Tisa: Your analgy sucks. NO ONE opens Poser and clicks on props/figures and they appear just the way you describe in a photo. They all appear in the center of the screen. Have to be moved, positioned, and sized. And while one may use pre-set lights, it doesn't always mean it goes with the scene one is picturing in one's mind. A better analogy comparing a person with a camera (that exposses the picture on fully automatic) to one working in Poser is to place the photographer in, say, a wilderness and let them "find" the art. Just as one working in Poser must "look" at the items made for them and "find" the art. If it's so easy, then go to the freebie section, get some lights, poses, some figures, textures, and props and "click" them into the poser work area, render it and post it. Do it without any planning or composition and let's just see if it's automatic art. Of course, it's easier to talk and make fun of others...isn't it? Maybe THAT's your art.

Or do you even OWN a (legal) copy of Poser?

I don't think anyone should be criticizing Eowyn. She's doing a great service to those who use Photoshop as their post render work. And her price is more than reasonable for the time she spent to put the package together. It really isn't any different than using Eye Candy or some other commercial filter or plug-in for Photoshop or PSP. So, what's the problem in that? Melanie

You are so funny Chuck.

And you sweep aside my challenge with gutless words. If it's so easy...it should only take you a few minutes to assemble some art. Put up or shut up is what I say!

Chuck be careful she might call you a meanie next

Oh wow, I go away for the weekend and miss something like this? Sad, sad me. I promise to stay home next time. First of all, Tisa, thank you so much for all the advertisement and publicity you have brought to my product. I'm very grateful that you put so much effort in helping me even though we don't even know each other. :) Secondly: Postwork Magic is supposed to be a simple tool. Tool, yes. It's meant for people who don't quite know their way around Photoshop yet. They can run the actions and then see what is included them and that way learn more about the basic functions in PS. It is one of my best selling products and I've had nothing but positive feedback on it so I'm sorry but I refuse to apologize for creating it ;) And as for the other points you have tried to make... Well, sorry, but I don't agree with you. And frankly, if you find Renderosity such a lousy place, why stay? We're not Van Goghs here but we all have our own ways of doing our artwork. If you can't appreciate other people's efforts, it says a lot more about you than about us.

Well, THAT will hurt so much! Probably have to commit suicide after a dreadful word like that. Personally, I'm just waiting to see the list of contests she has won.

Haven't we all gotten it by now? Tisa's art is drawing attention to herself. And we've helped give her the attention she wants. I have every confidence that another thread will be started by her or another to provoke more reaction from the community. That's the game. They get to feel superior by trying to set other other people on the defensive. And what is achieved? Well, maybe some useful conversation about the nature of what is or what is not art....and I'm not the one to say Poser is or is not art. It is a tool and the art comes from the person using the tool and not the tool itself. Perhaps some people are thinking more. I am pretty sure that the persona that Tisa presents has ideas locked in concrete so there is no point arguing with her alter ego. Perhaps a better question that the what is art question (which has no answer in a world that provides art awards to a string of blinking Christmas lights and pays thousands of dollars for urinals that could be bought for $75 in a hardware store), but why we care so much. Tisa talks about the light within but I don't think she sees what is going on in the galleries very well at all. The light of creativity and pride is in each poster who takes the time to say through their graphics: "I want to enjoy, I want to create, I want to have the ability to share my vision, and I celebrate the fact that someone has finally given me the tools to do what I could not do before." Poser is cooperative in nature....many hands creating each graphic. I don't see anything nonartistic in that. Leonardo da Vinci, among other great artists through time, had apprentices and helpers who worked on his masterworks. Ultimately, it is the vision of the person who brings the tools and materials and the vision together that creates the point of view of the graphic. Is that art? I don't know. I'm not the expert. I just know I see a lot of creativity on the gallery and I, for one, celebrate that effort.

"a few minutes to assemble some art" yes I like that line :)

Tisa I still have not received a reply about your age. I would appreciate some honesty here.

LOL...looks like ALOT of people simply ignored ironbear's post here...still going on and on about Tisa as if she's really a person (too funny).

Tisa's chronological age isn't really the issue, is it? After the length of this thread, the only thing I know for sure is that I wish I had Photoshop so I could take advantage of Eowyn's tool. (Any chance for a Paint Shop Pro version?) I appreciate anything that helps me learn something new.

not really but it might help me understand her. LOL I wish they had one too for us PSP users. Some of us poor people would appreciate it. ROFL

edriver shusssh... It's supposed to be a secret

.

Okay, boys and girls and artists of all ages - enough with the name calling. 105 posts is plenty - we get the point. If you want to get into a mudslinging match with each other go to the OT forum, or use IMs, okay? Don't make me have to turn this thread around! hands on hips Lyrra (moderator)

But....She started it!!!