Be carefull if you have any complaints about Poser5 and verbalize them.I was sent a private message from a "boss" here who told me if I post any more,I will be booted.So for the record,say only nice,kiss butt things.I for one,will say nothing anymore.I don't like being "warned"(threatened).I did not abuse anyone personally(though I was attacked by maybe 2 people)and I had ALOT that agreed with me,and I did not call anyone names or act viciously.So from now on,I will be an automoton.God Bless.

I have a feeling it wasn't what you said about Poser5 that was the problem it was that you repeated the same thread, but still if I have anything bad to say about Poser5 I will, if that results in a ban then goodbye Renderosity!

I repeated it ONE TIME.Not an amount to threaten me.But now I see how things work here.Thanks for the support c1rcle :o),for real.

Um, I'd like to point out that what Artist3D did is not against the TOS. The PTB could possibly be putting it under "* Any practices that affect the normal operations of the community", but I hardly think repeating a post ONCE constitutes that. And second action is supposed to be "# Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days.", not immediate banning. We all know that the TOS is enforced rather haphazardly and with bias, but guys, come on. Be a little more subtle about it, huh?

Well, for starters he hasn't BEEN immediately banned, has he? (checks Artist3D is continuing to post 2conspiracy theory" posts about Renderosity..) nope, he's still here. I haven't noticed (probably though lack of looking) anyone being harsher - or even AS harsh - towards Artist3D or other P5 dissenters (like myself about 40% of the time) as Artist3D appears to be against Curious Labs, Poser 5, and Renderosity. Sometiems it appears to me that it's allright to slag people off, but if anyone responds half as strongly in rebuttal then that's "attempted censorship". Freedom of speech is supposed to work from all directions, not just 1. Cliff Bowman

I didn't say he had been banned. Disciplinary action for TOS violations is supposed to be: * First event - warning by email and/or IM. * Second event Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days. * Third event Membership revoked, and access to the community permanently blocked. If I understand correctly, #2 will be skipped if he continues, and I hardly see where that's called for. As for Poser 5, Curious Labs, and Renderosity, the first is a program, and the other two are business entities. As they are not "people", they really can't be the target of "personal attacks". I haven't read the arguments. If someone argues about the subject and/or gives evidence to the contrary, that's perfectly all right as far as I'm concerned. If the "rebuttal" is some variation of "You're an idiot!", then no. That is a personal attack.

...b/m

This is a poser forum, and if there is an unwritten rule that only nice things can be said about a company/product I think it's time for me to leave as well, for I must also be on the verge at least 50% of the time. CL has not been completely up front with us, and I did not like feeling like a donkey with a carrot on a stick in front of it to get me to buy their product. They are doing a better job of cleanup and repair, but the bad taste is still in a lot of people's mouths. It's going to take some time to get back the trust of myself and others, and to protect them by banning or deriding people for stating their opinion is wrong. I love the internet with it's worldwide views, but I live in the U.S. and as far as I know we still have freedom of speech here. Artist3D was voicing his opinion and was attacked. I wonder if the people who attacked him, a person, not a company, were warned of an impending ban. Take care Renderosity that you don't become trapped in the CL treacle and forget that you are also supported by users here. Marque

Well, here goes.... Renderosity depends on POSER to generate its income, if it is indeed a money making affair, which I have to assume it is. Thus, if we whine and bitch and post negative comments on Poser5, the future of Renderosity and the Poser community, contributing to lost sales to CL, which rolls down to lost revenue for Renderosity.... I don't think any more need be said. Whoops, a sudden thought.......... I suppose it does get a bit old if the same stuff is brought up over and over...even I tend to gloss over after a while..but sometimes issues do need to stay in the forefront.

FyreSpiryt: I agree almost completely, with the one exception that the members of a small company can feel just as slighted if you attack the company as if you pick them out individually (ditto if someone feels that a product is the labour of much work of theirs they can feel slighted if it's attacked as a "piece of carp" or somesuch). Otherwise yes, everything else you say echoes my feelings. There's no reason for slighting anyone, or indeed any attacks at all - P5 has sufficient flaws for mere reporting of them tobe bad enough :( Marque: Aside from adding that IMHO it's wrong to protect either side of an "argument" (situation, whatever) by deriding the other, I agree. That has indeed been my issue with Artist3D - not what his initial issues with the program and company, but the apparent conspiracy-theory reaction to anyone having a different POV. God knows I've seen too many anti-Poser 5 posts which were bang on without resorting to anything but demonstrable (and repeatable) problems with the program :( I may have missed something, but AFAIK any "attacks" of anything like the strength of artist3D's posts have been offline? Or did I miss something? (probably). Cheers, Cliff Bowman (who probably OUGHT to just quit responding to people who appear to be 95% in agreement with him on this kind of issue).

Yes, there are certainly a few here with their self-righteous attitudes against ANYone with ANY negative feedback towards CL. I truly wish CL was as wonderful and blameless as some of the followers that support them blindly seem to think they are. Without criticism CL wont have the feedback or the motivation to ever improve on their product.

I perfectly understand artist 3D's frustration with this entire CL fiasco. I too continue to have unacceptable problems with this program. One just has to look to the top of the page to see the hot link for "the Bug Parade" and realize the score here. That said..I also respect those with polar viewpoints to my own and wouldn't want those viewpoints silenced. I don't think this community will tolerate a "silencing" of any type. It flys in the face of our freedom to express ourselves. WIth out this freedom we lose our wings of creativity and are herded into fearful, mindless sheep! I for one won't stand for this! I've said it before and I'll passionatly say it again and again....Censorship cannot be tolerated. This community and any other depends on a diversity of ideas and viewpoints. We cannot be subjected to a "watering down" or control of our ideas. I will defend the freedom of all are viewpoints, even the ones I disagree with. I have found a family here but I cannot find myself, or any other member, stymied, or it will be time to fly from the nest and make a home elsewhere. Thanks

Does this mean I'm on CL's payroll now! "I know I personally don't need to see post after post after post here with the same gripes." I feel the same way about post after post after post about posts like the one you just made. "We all know Poser 5 has bugs. It's been TWO MONTHS and if there's even ONE member here who doesn't know it he's either blind, illiterate, or stupid as hell." Its nice to see your admitting this but my question to you is why do you feel the need to stop by this post and "defend". Perhaps living by example would go a long way to demonstrate your dedication to CL and this community. Perhaps your time could be better spent helping out in "the Bug Parade". Isn't that what your suggesting of others. Lead by example!

Thank you Legueme. I would like to point out that only one person has been banned because of this whole mess: The guy with all the poop pictures, spamming like no tomarrow. And if I'm not mistaken it took a whole 2 min for him to comeback with a new nick.

If Poser 5 was working well for me I'D BE USING IT RIGHT NOW! Perhaps in "Leading by example" you could be giving helpful tips in this forum, working on content for the community, etc. Leading by example takes many forms! I'm glad your COpy of Poser 5 is working. If mine was working consistently I'd spend less time in the forum and more time rendering. With a "fine" working copy, I'm suprised you devote any time to "complain" in posts such as these.

I just wish there was a separate forum for Poser 5 users (as was suggested a while back by someone with more foresight than me). Before 5 was released, it was easy to come here and just read about ways people use the software, helpful hints, questions etc etc - USEFUL stuff. Now it takes an age to wade through all the Poser 5 complaints, rebuttals, speculations, first tries in the material room and other such stuff. None of it interests me as a Poser 4 user. If and when I decide to upgrade (?) to 5 then I'll go looking through all these threads, but until then I just wish they were somewhere else. Sorry, just a personal opinion.

They are doing a better job of cleanup and repair They have a reputation to recover, so they start up a forum where people can help test it. Damage control? Good PR? Helpful company? You decide. I live in the U.S. and as far as I know we still have freedom of speech here. Yes, in public, you can say whatever you want. However, the last I looked, this is a private site, owned at operated by individuals. Therefore, they set the rules about what can and can not be said here. They have every right to censor the posts for whatever reasons they see fit. If they want to change the TOS to say that badmouthing CL or Poser is a bann-able offense, then can.

Chaps, chaps - whatever the right thing to do IS (and here I make no comment) I'm pretty sure that infighting isn't it. I've seen far too many intelligent sentences/paragraphs from us all to believe that this thread is going in a direction worthy of any of us. Cliff Bowman

Why should I work on a program that isn't working and throws errors and mess's up computer systems? No thanks I'll just wait till CL. has a acceptable patch. I thought of trying to get my money back, but I really want to believe CL will fix this Poser5, so then I can reprogram it back in. And Have lots of fun as promised.

Has anyone recieved the tell a friend promotion from CL with savings on Poser 5 in their email. They have cheaper upgrade prices as well. I wonder if they would consider a "downgrade" rebate. Something I'd seriously consider. Rather have a stable P4 with ProPack than my current highly unstable Poser 5.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=923390&Reply=924101#6

-JH.

Very suspicious!

My thoughts exactly, Lapis. -JH.

"Why should I work on a program that isn't working and throws errors and mess's up computer systems?" Why in god's name do you own a computer then?

I understand the frustrations because when I started having problems after the first patch, I contacted CL via the tech support form on their site. No response. Thread after thread in the beta forum is only answered by rosity members (who have really been more help than CL) and I was getting upset that someone, anyone from CL wasn't bothering to respond. Finally, Anthony did offer to look at my pz3 file but I honestly don't know if I would have gotten a response if I hadn't gotten angry.
The sr2 patch corrupted something in my pz3 file. That isn't user error. And I still can't seem to get anything to render large/print size.
CL does need to respond to these issues and when all you get is silence it's damn frustrating. And if you haven't had any of the problems, you can't understand the frustration but you need to try before you criticize.

Exactly Kendra. What frustrated me even more than my ill copy of P5 is the fact that many threads that point out problems either end up here or go missing completely. I cannot condone censorship in any form. But they can't delete them all or there'd be little left in the forum.

Lapis,

Maybe you don't know this, but no thread has been deleted. It's not possible unless it's done from the backend by a tech.

We don't have a true delete option for threads or messages and we don't censor.

When a thread is moved to it's proper forum, ebot links may come up as deleted, but it's right there in the forum it was moved to.

-JH.

It would be very nice if the mod moving would put a note saying where it went. Just start a new conversation saying "X string was moved to Y forum" and lock it so it doesn't get added to. That wouldn't be so hard, would it? I only found my way back to this one because of a lucky guess when it wasn't in Poser or OT.

Sorry Jeff. This was my problem too! I agree FyreSpiryt. My next question is why was it moved in the first place when there are so many other "off topic" threads that are allowed to flourish in the Poser forum. Consistency would be nice! It seems that anything negative about poser is washed from main view. Its hard to come up with another explanation when other threads are left alone. This was a poser topic as much as non CL content for poser is a poser topic. Kendra, how's your P5 working now?

Kendra said: "CL does need to respond to these issues and when all you get is silence it's damn frustrating." Well said!! And I am sure this isn't the first time CL has heard this said... or even the second. I can understand being busy working on stuff to get patches made or new builds done. But there has to be some form of communication that goes on between the Company who is having their product tested and by the individuals testing that product. Soap box opinion here...: Customers and consumers of products want to be sure that their needs and concerns are being met regarding software issues. In a forum based test pattern, they want to know that their concern has been addressed or even looked at. It provides a sense of security and bonds the Customer/Consumer closer to the Company that they try and support. If anyone called a tech support department, was asked to explain the situation or problem that they are having and did so and upon finishing their explanation received only dead silence as an answer... you could write that person off from ever being a Customer again. The same holds true to people that post problems in a forum which is supposed to be used for Beta Testing (such as the Beta Testing Forum here on Rosity). These issue are IMPORTANT to the User that reported them, it directly affects them... moreso if they paid for the program and are working diligently in an attempt to support the company whose product is faulty in some regard. They should be told that their concern has been at the very least "LOOKED AT" or that: "Thank you for the report, we will be looking into it." Curious Labs should have two or three individuals going through that Beta Forum, writting down the reports, thank the poster, then pass those reports to the PTB who are in charge of fixing those errors. The individuals in charge of doing that should be identified as CL employees or representives and their actions are just as important as the software itself. Customers want to feel like they are heard and appreciated. Understandably a company may be hard pressed, stressed, stretched thin or burried... but they should STILL make it a point to nod, or wave, or even let the Customer know that they've been seen. The product could be the BEST THING in a world, but it Customer Support that helps to sell that product and establishes return business, expecially if the product is bug ridden and needs more work. THAT is the kind of dedication a customer wants to see from a company and that kind of action from a company insures it's future. ...End Soap Box opinion. Jack

Well spoken Jack, but when posts are reefed away and hidden like this it makes it even harder to get the point across(unless the point is to have negative comments buried on purpose so unsuspecting buyers can be pulled into this mess and join in on "The Bug Parade"). I'm begining to think they don't want to listen anyway. Arrogance is all I'm continually sensing. With a software product release very soon from DAZ, they're continuing to blow up there PR efforts. To me, and what I have witnessed with this company so far, this is the beginning of the end.

I didn't realize this thread was moved, until it was mentioned here...I got the email that there was a reply...I usually just look at the subject and hit the link.... Its hidden well. I think one of the main problems with CL responding are the numerous bugs and posts about them....just too many...they are concentrating on certain ones, like the exception errors and stuff.... Also, very short staffed....I've been corresponding with Tori, the beta goddess over there at CL, she has been out sick for a couple of days...none of her email gets answered when she's not there, of course...so all those little things add up. BUT, they really need to be reading and responding to those posts on the SR-2 beta forum....every one of them...is it a bug..yes...no...we know about that one, there is a fix coming, etc etc....or request furthe rinfo, a file be sent and so forth...but most of those posts appear to be totally overlooked...perhaps they are being read, but there is no indication of that.

A"Fixed Bug" forum or data sheet would be helpful also. This way testers can go there first and see if the bug they are about to report has been fixed or at least reported. Otherwise testers have to wade through endless post to find out what is being addressed. Confusing and time consuming for everyone. Tom

Please remember to post all Poser 5 bugs in the Poser 5 SR-2 beta forum so CL can put it on the list of things to fix.

Well said Tom and I think that would greatly help out the CL Staff as well. Granted, P5 may have allot of bugs to begin with, however, they can seem allot more numerous than they are if people double up on the reports. For example, you report a bug in a thread (that I might not even read), then I come across the same bug and post it again... People curious about P5 and checking the Beta forum will not realize the fact that they both (the posts)are actually the same and make a judgement call on whether or not to buy p5 just on the sheer amount of posts. Great input, Tom!! Jack

Thanks Jack, I Alpha/Beta tested alot of software and and organization is the key to a sucsessful beta. 1) report a bug section 2) fixed bug section 3) upload a file section 4) download a file section. 5) pending fixes The report a bug section should have a form to fill out with information such as hardware and software environments(OS,CPU,Mem,etc.) A comments field for additional information and steps to replicate the bug. The upload file section is a great way for the developer to run the file on His/her system and compare data. One thing I've noticed in the P5 sr2 forum ,is that some folks dont even know "Who is Who" in there. It would be helpful to all if the CL employees added a signiture that indicates who they are. Tom

Tom this is good info. Have you posted it in the bug forum?

No I havn't Lapis. but I could if it would be helpful in moving this Beta forward. Tom

They need all the help they can get.

lol...okay I did it. I edited it and speelcheked it and added some more mispeeld werds while I was at it.. 8 )~ Tom

Forward merch!

"Yes, in public, you can say whatever you want. However, the last I looked, this is a private site, owned at operated by individuals. Therefore, they set the rules about what can and can not be said here. They have every right to censor the posts for whatever reasons they see fit. If they want to change the TOS to say that badmouthing CL or Poser is a bann-able offense, then can." I disagree. R'osity is a public site that anyone with an internet connection can come to. So, verses saying "this is their house, play by their rules", this is more akin to a coffee shop or a town hall in which any member is free to speak his/her mind; pro, con, or indifferent. If R'osity was a pay site or members only, then it could be considered private. However, even then their right to restrict speech could be questioned. Ceratinly, even if the members disagreed and the restrictions were enforced anyway, I doubt R'osity would survive very long. The rules need to be clarified and enforced consistently across the board. Regardless of what the issues are behind the seemingly public display of inconsistent enforcement of the rules, only R'osity can address those issues.

The rules definately should be adressed at this time. Also,a discussion of this magnitude shouldn't be hidden away, it should be front and center. I think if people knew this type of censorship existed here they would be asking many questions.

Renderosity and other sites like it are private, not public. Renderosity does require membership in order to post, as does most. While I might not agree with some of the actions taken, I can't argue that they did anything illegal.

"The rules need to be clarified and enforced consistently across the board. Regardless of what the issues are behind the seemingly public display of inconsistent enforcement of the rules, only R'osity can address those issues. I agree "R'osity is a public site that anyone with an internet connection can come to. So, verses saying "this is their house, play by their rules", this is more akin to a coffee shop or a town hall in which any member is free to speak his/her mind; pro, con, or indifferent. If R'osity was a pay site or members only, then it could be considered private. However, even then their right to restrict speech could be questioned. Ceratinly, even if the members disagreed and the restrictions were enforced anyway, I doubt R'osity would survive very long. " I disagree Although the rules should be clear and have a level playing field. I Think these sites have every right to enforce their rules. Just because it's a free site doesn't mean anyone should be able to just troll away and then yell censorship when it is addressed.(not that anyone is doing that in this thread,it's just an example) The TOS is in place when everyone signed up and agreed.to it You cant agree to the rules,then come in and expect to break them,and yell censorship. So it doesn't matter what the rule is.you agreed to it when you signed up. The coffee shop analogy: Sure if patrons were discussing amoungst themselves(lets call this and IM) they could say what they want. But if someone was standing on the tables,shouting and yelling(trolling public threads) you can bet the managment would adress it in the interest of making it an acceptable place for the rest of the patrons. Again...not saying anyone here is doing that,it's just an example of why the rules are in place. 8 ) I have no comment on the moving of threads or favoritism,I'm just addressing the censorship issue . Tom

Quote from Tom: "I have no comment on the moving of threads or favoritism,I'm just addressing the censorship issue." Heh... actually you do, but you're just being polite and not stating it. =o) Jack

LOL You know me all to well Jack. or am I that transparent? lol It's called "self censorship"..lmao otherwise known as "biting my tongue" Tom

"I Think these sites have every right to enforce their rules." Then, perhaps someone could point out the rule against posting the same message twice? Or the rule about not being able to make an adverse post about a sponsor? Or the rule that specifically addresses the issue(s) of moving/deleting threads for "tagging"? Of course, in a civil society, there are limitations on the Freedom of Speech, insomuch that it does not generate a "crisis" situation in which people may be placed in harm's way. I do not see any such conduct in A3D's posts, (or for that matter any of the posts that I have seen moved), that would voilate the TOS in any manner; except with a highly liberal interpretation of some vaguely described policies.

Having worked with you as long as I have, I'd go with the former rather than the latter. :o) That and I've always admired your ability to self censor yourself... I've tried to mimic your ability, but I always get the "But you've always been the type of person who didn't have a problem speaking your mind"... :o) Jack

The bottom line here is this thread was yanked away and placed in a dark closet based on a ruling of which there isn't even a rule for. Damn weird! Hello.....(faint echo fades away...hello) Its dark in here. Rather quiet too.

Fair enough CS. The never-ending document known as the TOS is...well..exactly that.."never-ending and is constantly being updated and modified to address new concerns or modify old rules that needed tweaking. Usually an update to the TOS is followed by an announcement so folks can go read the amendments and decide if they are acceptable changes and make a decision to either comply with the changes or resign their membership. I confess I haven't read the TOS here in a couple of years and don't know if the issues you outlined above are addressed. But where does it stop? I'm sure it could get down to "saying THIS is okay" but "saying That" is not". Or "The following criteria will result in a thread being moved" There has to be a point where it's a judgment call on the part of the staff. Again..I Haven't read the TOS in a long time but I would bet there is a spot in there that says" R/osity reserves the right to delete,move threads at their discretion"(or something to that effect). and that was agreed upon when folks signed up. I'm not trying to stick up for the staff here.Just trying to illustrate another point of view. As someone who has had a little bit of experience with this,I confess I'm probably looking at it from another viewpoint but I'm trying to be unbiased about it. Peace 8 ) Tom