Having jsut been told that (to paraphrase very little) one cannot expect any support for any DAZ item if I'm using Poser 5, I was more than a little shocked and surprised. I was querying whether there was any documentation on the Vicktoria's Changing Ponytail Collection & Victoria's Changing Ponytail Expansion Pak, since they seem complex enough, with enough unexplained acronyms, to warrant some form of "Use this dial to produce this effect" documentation. OBVIOUSLY not a Poser 5 issues. Thanks to Reba's otherwise polite (as usual) reply I am now trying for a third time to contact Anton (the first 2 times having been to follow incorrect instructions re web site and e-mail address from the product's readme). So it would seem Poser 5 users beware - it's not just that DAZ aren't making stuff to utilitise Poser 5 features, but seemingly they'll actively deny you product support if you've been so nasty as to give CL any money. Hrrumph! And after reading all those "DAZ are wonderful, DAZ never lets anybody down" messages, too! Cliff Bowman, not quite so impressed!!!!

Awe come on who3d. That's not quite fair is it? Personally, I think your understandable frustration is pointed in the wrong direction. Can you really blame them for not supporting Poser 5? I certainly cannot given recent events.

Why would Daz want to be involved with a dud like Poser 5. I gather from a couple of Posts that DAZ are going to sell their own version of Poser ???

I agree about the lack of instructions, but it ain't just DAZ. I have products from vendors on many sites that have no dox at all; it's up to the buyer to fiddle and play to figure everything out. It's a pain and should be addressed. I emailed a vendor(from Rosity) about it once and was ignored.

Here's how I see it. I have purchased Poser 5. This is the product I plan an using going forward....If DAZ is not supporting its products within Poser 5, and CL will not cooperate and make it easy for the DAZ products to be compatible with P5, unfortunately for DAZ, I have no reason whatsoever to buy anymore DAZ products. Suppose I can take the risk and try them, but if they don't work, then I'm out my cash. If all I'm using is P5, then DAZ will not be a vendor I can do business with, unless they and CL can come to terms.

I just sent you a message before finding this. Why is it everythime people get a bit frustrated they march to the topic forums looking for blood? The product comes with a readme. And I fail to see how the Platinum Club has anything to do with your point. We cannot support P5 because we do not own it or plan to buy it. The program seems to be in a contant state of revision and it is not our place to de-bug it. You comments about us and P5 will only cause problems between our companies. If you are upset I can understand but speculating this way is not good for anyone. I was away yesterday visiting my elderly aunt. I was exhusted and went to sleep when I got home. If I didn't respond fast enough I am sorry. Anton

also Just so there is no misunderstanding there is no real difference between P4 and P5 cr2's. P4 products work just fin in P5 with very few exeption from what I have read. Please don't mislead people into thinking P4 items won't work if you have P5. This is far from the case. :) Everyone can have a bad day but you don't have to go for the throat. Anton

I'd suspect Daz meant that if there is an issue specific to P5, then they can't help. P5 ignores the MAT file instructions for the transparency fall-off setting, for example, and there isn't much that Daz can do about it. It looks like this week has been a pretty miserable week for a lot of people, so tempers are a bit short all around. Even banging my head against the monitor isn't doing any good this week. ;-)

To reinforce what Anton said, Daz employees, which includes me as a paid subcontractor, cannot even break the shrink wrap on a copy of P5 without running into EULA legal issues. It is hard to determine why a product, which worked well under P4, is not working on P5 when you can't try the product yourself in P5 because you can't have a copy of P5 running anywhere. I am not stating an official Daz position, but this is a basic, simple fact. If someone had problems with one of my brokered products on P5 I'd have to throw my hands and say there's no way I could try and figure it out because I do not own and cannot own or use a copy of P5. This isn't a conspiracy or an attempt to hose P5 users. This is just the way it is. Daz does not own a single copy of P5 and unless there is a drastic shift in the cosmos Daz will not ever have a copy of P5.

For what it's worth.... I've had no problems thus far using DAZ products within P5, but have only tried a few so far...what I have found, however, is they don't look the same as in Poser 4....texturing seems different, etc...shadows, rendering... Transparency, on hair especially, is a bit tedious..it just doesn't look the same. Much of this is from inexperience in using Poser 5. Yes, DAZ has issues with CL, but you guys have to know that the reason you're in business is because of Poser. A great part of your customers have purchased Poser 5.... I think it will be very detrimental to DAZ if you do not support your products within P5....provide tutorials and FAQs on how to use the Material Room to achieve the best look....how to apply the textures , etc. Provide settings and so forth.... You don't have to have vic and mike utilize the new features, although it would sure be nice, and you don't have to work with CL anymore...but Poser is your bread and butter....if you cut it off at P4, you're going to ultimately lose much customer base. You should at least provide as much user information as you can to use DAZ content in P5, to the level that is possible. To take a different look at it, DAZ can back off and the Poser users will provide the needed tutorials and FAQs. My philosophy is that I am a Poser user, be it Poser 4 or Poser 5, but a POSER user since version 1. I have now moved to Poser 5....yes, there are problems in P5, but it appears they are being addressed. Unless CL totally drops the ball and this baby falls dead, I'll be using Poser 5 exclusively at some point. DAZ, spawned from Zygote, to support the Poser community, is one of many content providers for Poser, but probably the best. If they are going in a different direction, away from Poser, what does this mean to me? I move to a different provider for Poser content. Is there a statement somewhere from DAZ that explains what their path is in regards to Poser? Will their new products only be developed for Poser 4---will there be a blip in the readme that they do not support their products in P5...or will DAZ sell the stuff and not provide support for its use in P5...I can't see it both ways...it seems to me it has to be one or the other.

Well I reckon it is fairly simple folks DAZ probably sat down around Xmas time and after a great deal of discussion realized that Poser 5 would be a dud and decided to start on a similar program. They must have known by that stage that the code was not being completly rewritten and as such Poser5 was doomed. There has been quite a bit said about whether DAZ bought POSER 5 . WHY WOULD THEY BOTHER. I have said it before.Curious Labs will be gone by the NEW YEAR. The recent discounted price is an indicator of worse to come. The whole saga is a bit sad, but Curious Labs sowed the seeds of their demise back when they failed to fix the P4 render problem. We could have all lived with P4 for another year if that had been fixed ,and as it turns out will probably have to, untill DAZ release their program.

Let me get this straight. DAZ can't/wont provide support on their products if they are used in a P5 environment? Lovely. No offense to you Anton or jbrugion but I'm sure I'm not the only around here that really wishes DAZ and CL would get their crap together and work this P5 EULA/DAZ app pissing contest out, because while both companies think they are doing whats in the best interest for their companies but what they are really doing is alienating the people who keep them in buisness.

Ps: Rereading you email I think you are daunted because there was a change in P5 someone reported where all the morphs for "changing" parts are now listed together into one giant list where in P4 they just appeared with the part they were using. Sorry. We have no control over that change in P5. Like I said all the dials are labeled with Prefixes though. Fringybangs start with FB... StrandBangs start with S.... Curled Bangs start with CB.... etc etc

So Daz won't support models in Poser 5. Does Maxon support Poser figures imported to their application? Or Newtek? Or Discreet? Or anyone else? If you don't have it, you can't support it because you don't know what it does or how it works. If someone write to me about one of my models in, for instance 3DSMax or Lightwave I don't have a clue how to help them. Poser 5 is the same. If you don't own it, you can't offer support for it. If you don't use it, you can't give support for it. Does Curious Labs offer support for all the Daz products seeing as it's their application things are used in? No? Why? Because they don't own all of them, don't use all of them and didn't make them. I understand the frustration, I've had problems importing Poser figures into Bryce but I don't write to Corel screaming at them about it, nor do I write to Daz screaming at them about it. Because I don't expect them to support it. I do however ask in a forum HOW to do something if I can't figure it out. This applies to other models or characters I might make in the future. I don't own Poser 5, so can't support it. I guess that makes me a mean nasty POS as well because I'd have to tell someone "Sorry, can't answer your question, you're on your own." That's why I state it on my site. As far as I know Daz have a similar statement on their site in the FAQ, maybe elsewhere.

Try some Jack Daniels.... I'll stop....why can't we all be friends ? BUT...then you guys need to stop talking about EULA...ISSUES. There is a comment right above mine that brings it up again...it is an issue. quote "To reinforce what Anton said, Daz employees, which includes me as a paid subcontractor, cannot even break the shrink wrap on a copy of P5 without running into EULA legal issues. " unquote To be frank....I hope both you, (DAZ), and CL the best...I love both of you. I want you both to succeed. But if either or both go down the shitter, I'll just find another product to use. As a consumer, all I want to see is my ability to use Poser and whatever additional content I buy, to work correctly. Nothing more, nothing less. If you or CL can't provide that, I'll move on to something else. Now I'll stop.

I don't think it is the same thing Questor as your examples. When Vue 4 came out people expected support from both CL and Eon for the importing Poser feature because it was the work of both companies. Now we have DAZ, a company founded on 'selling' models for the Poser application refusing to support the latest release because they are developing their own competing product while at the same time continuing to say they are commited to 'improving the customers Poser experience'. From the DAZ website History Section "DAZ 3D is committed to the ongoing development of exciting new products for Poser and to the constant search for new ways to improve customers' Poser experience." Perhaps they should change that to the Poser 4 experience 'cause they only reason this is so is because they have decided that the development of this new 'app' is more important than supporting their existing customers. I didn't know about the FAQ entry until yesterday and DAZ certainly didn't put on its front page "WE SUPPORT P4 ONLY!" And to the question you posed about you personally, no I wouldn't think any person making free items is a POS for not supporting them in P5. Nor would I think the same of any vendors if they were honest and marked their items p4 only if they didn't plan to support them in P5.

Who 3D, Dave-so, others, For reasons that we have discussed previously, we have not installed Poser 5 on any of our systems. Curious Labs has stated that Poser 5 is backwards compatible and Poser 4 content should work in Poser 5. Therefore we are building our products using Poser 4 with the expectations that Poser 5 is backwards compatible. As far as the future development of Poser 5 specific products (that incedently are useless for the majority of the customers who still only have Poser 4 at this time) we are working with Curious Labs on an agreement that would make us feel comfortable to do so (a unilateral agreement for all developers). This is definitely not a "pissing match" but a real catch 22 situation. We can install Poser 5 so that we can support products that should already be working in Poser 5, or not install and provide this market with additional options that hasn't been offered before. Our number one interest is to support you the customers. I think that we have done our best to proove that is our interest and there are going to be more things coming in the near future that will confirm that is still our number one interest. Sincerely, Dan Farr

Questor, If models are not supported within an app, I have the choice of buying them and hope they work, if not, messing around to try and make them work, or wait for someone else to make them work. OR...not buying them at all. I think I would defer to the, "not buying them at all," choice. IMO, what makes this situation a bit sticky, DAZ and CL were like hand and glove....through P4. Now all is different. I think most of us use products from DAZ with Poser, and pretty much expected status quo through Poser 5. Yes, the DAZ products work in P5, although with much more tweaking, and as Anton discovered in the post above, not always the same. I actually understand the issues here, and wouldn't expect Corel to help me import a DAZ model into Bryce, or vice versa, but my main point is that I would think it is in DAZ and Curious Lab's best interest to come to some sort of an agreement. And as a consumer, and user of both companies products, it is in my best interest as well.

I have used a lot of Daz models in P5 without any problems, the only thing I have had to do is reset transparency falloff to Zero. I'm sure there is a way to widen the hair, as I have taken outfits from dazs and made them fit on noggis iguana, just by turning dials. It's just a game of trial and error. I for one am happy with all I have bought at Daz's and also Curious labs. Just my 2 cents :)

I wanted to mention one more thing. As always we do offer a full 30 day satisfaction guarantee on our products. So if Poser 5 is unable to support Poser 4 content and you are unable to get the support you need from CL about combatability of Poser 4 created products we are willing to give your money back on your purchase. But according to Curious Labs, Poser 4 products should work fine in Poser 5. Dan Farr

Thanks Dan, for that response above. An agreement between CL and DAZ is exactly what is needed IMO, for what its worth :)

I agree with you Dave-so, it is in the best interests of everyone to have these two companies working together rather than as seperate entities. And, yes my decisions to purchase something would also, like yours be influenced on whether they work in a given application. To my knowledge though, Vickie and Mike etc work just fine in Poser 5, they just don't work in the Face Room, MAT files have a problem in that CL changed the materials around somewhat. But to slam someone for not supporting something they can't use is ludicrous. Would it be fair for me to attack Billy-T, or Anton, or DaCort because their models don't work properly in Poser 3 and they don't support that version? Isn't that the same thing? All those Poser 3 users who haven't upgraded yet who can't use transparencies etc. I feel that the P4/P5 issue is the same as P3/P4 Some things just can't be helped, but you don't see Poser 3 users littering the forum with complaints because they have an issue with something that's built for P4. This situation to my mind is the same. The models concerned were built for poser 4 and it should be expected that there may well be issues in Poser 5 with some of them. That the huge amount of discussions here and elsewhere where Daz has stated several times that they can't at this time support Poser 5 or make content for it - as well as the same statement from several other vendors - has been missed completely is puzzling to me. It's not like it's been any kind of a secret and the subject of P5 compatibility has been brought up several times in this and other forums. Seems to me that someone just wanted to rant and start another argument. I guess the existing ones are getting too long or boring. :)

Q....you're absolutely correct...there is no point is slamming DAZ for this, or Curious... did I slam them? let me read back a bit...no, not me... but, as a consumer, (doesn't that term get old?), I sure would like to nudge them in the direction of mutual cooperation and support. Maybe its the lawyers we ought to rant about. Anyway, it appears things are moving in a positive direction for all of us. Long live Poser and DAZ :) ps: the rest of you content providers can live long and prosper as well.

No you didn't Dave-so, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was accusing you of having done so, it was generalised reference to the start of this thread. Heh, maybe it is the lawyers who should be ranted at, they after all have a vested interest in making things as complex as possible to earn as much money as possible and justify their ridiculous fees. :)

Whats needed and needed soon is for both CL and DAZ to reach some common ground here. If the EULA is what is the major stumbling block, then legal provisions must be made and can be with just the stroke of a pen. Its that simple. A lawyer can do this very quick and easily. Its what they are payed to do. My wife reminded me of a simple adage used very successfully for many, if not all, successful businesses today. Its beyond market share, beyond psychodemograpics, beyond most of the technical business/marketing jargon any student will encounter. The best part is its simple. Most children understand the philosophy better than most adults. Your customer is always right! Operating with this mindset will set a course for a business's future that will be both prosperous and stable. Heard another way: treat others as you yourself would want to be treated. How many of you have met somewhere along the way, a business aquaintence that bends over backwards to get your business. You remember this person because his/her approach is refreshing, and seemingly rare in todays fast paced market place. If your like me, you hang on to this person who seems almost magical. That magic is available to any or all who understand the significance of what I'm relaying. Stephan Covey has a great way of looking at this. Any one serious about business would do well to read his 7 habits...book. Paraphrasing enormously and fitting it to the situation that we all see before us, we are reminded of another simple philosophy. This time it comes from our childrens world of literature. (those kids are smart, we should listen to them more often). Don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. In the current situation regarding DAZ and CL as well as other 3rd party vendors. It seems as if the core issue is the EULA. Once this is worked out ( and it needs to be very soon) two old friends, will for the most part, reunite. They will then be working in the same direction instead of independently and the geese will once again produce golden eggs that will sustain the land of poser. Is it really that simple? Yes folks it is. What would happen with the Poser community if you read in a weeks time that an agreement over the EULA was reached by DAZ, CL, and third party producers, and that because of this each company would support each others creations whether software or content. First a big sigh of releif. Then,in short order the community would soar. The bonds would be lifted overnight. Soon we'd all be looking for new growth markets and artists would soar unhidered by politics. The spin offs would be immense and the rekindled momentum would drive poser forward like never before. Is this realistic? Deep down away from ego, and the noise of the world, we know it is. Some of us have just forgotten, that's all. DAZ...CL...please someone get the ball rolling here. There's too much at stake for the entire family. One call and the right attitude and we change the course of history. Please! Thanks for listening

Not that anyone cares, but I like Pokeydots have been able to use all my products from DAZ on Poser 5, all seems well and renders wonderfully.....I bought the Platenium from DAZ, happy with that too..... My opinion, the title of this post may confuse some. Sharen

Dan Farr- As a software developer, my biggest problem with Poser5's EULA is that the file formats are proprietary, with additional language that would interfere with my ability to create other software that uses any new features in those file formats. Do I hope that my products eventually become part of an alternative powerful enough to make Poser5 unnecessary? Of course I do :-) But whether that happens or not only time will tell. The point is that customers shouldn't be locked in to any one vendor, but should be able to use whatever tools are useful to them at a given time. Therefore, I hope that customers will learn to shun products with tight EULA's, as soon as any alternative exists. If DAZ (or anyone else) is working on new applications that are alternatives to Poser, PLEASE make your file formats public domain. If an alternative with less restrictions became successful, I would give that preference over Poser 5, unless the Poser5 EULA is changed. I don't think any company smaller than Microsoft can really afford the consequences of trying to be tight-fisted with file formats. -- Steve S. (ToolmakerSteve)

I think it is pretty easy for people to 'miss' all these debate/explanation threads. I for one hang out around Renderosity and Poser Pros a fair amount. I read a fair amount of the threads and it wasn't until this week I realized how far all of this has gone. And I didn't realize until reading Anton's statement that Daz couldn't and thus wouldn't support DAZ products in P5. The FAQ states it differently, saying it won't sell/support P5 or products specifically for P5. I'm not trying to slam Daz but to make it easier for their customers to understand the issues they should state, where it can be easily found, say on the products page that they cannot currently support their products if they are used in P5 until CL and Daz come to the agreement Dan mentioned, if they ever do.

I just want this all to be resolved and go away. This has taken the fun out of the whole thing. And it is getting old and tiresome already. Just put this issue to rest Dan/Michael and lets get back to the artwork. PLEASE

Who will make the first call?

Dan farr and Curious Labs, let the children hold their breaths until they turn blue, and throw their tantrums, it'll all pass soon enough. Thanks for the constant good job Dan , and Curious Labs when the bugs are all fixed poser 5 will be praised like never before. So many people around here bitch and moan, you need therapy or a good doctor to remove poser from your ass. Give it a rest, until you own stock in or are the president of one of these companies, it's really none of your business. They have to do what they have to do.

"Dan farr and Curious Labs, let the children hold their breaths until they turn blue, and throw their tantrums, it'll all pass.........it's really none of your business. They have to do what they have to do." As my wise father would say: listen to the above post and do the opposite. Dirk5027, I highly recommend you read the fable about that golden egg laying goose one more time. Success leaves clues. Perception is reality.

Good grief what a monster THIS has turned into! I've just come back from shopping with wife (sorry - Real Life intrudes). I take great warmth from some of the response sI've read though, and hope to read through the whole lot and respond more fully when my leg has calmed down (acute pain from osteoarthritis not being condusive to reasonable conversations!). Many thanks, Cliff Bowman

I just can't keep my big keyboard shut :) It is our business. We are the customers. We pay their salary. We buy their products. And we would like to be able to use their products..that's why we buy them. Simple enough....and I tend to think of it as we do own stock in both of them...if CL goes under, my use of Poser ends. If DAZ goes under, my future pleasure of using their product ends as well. And I want to be able to use the dAZ products, and future P5 DAZ products in Poser 5. So, it is our business to bitch and moan. If everyone had their heads up their butts and walked around in tunnel vision like most do nowadays, nothing would change....if you don't care, stay out of it...just don't come whining later when the whole deal falls apart. And I'm not just talking about Poser here either. There is just too much apathy for anyones good nowadays. I bitch and moan, and add some whine because I care. I don't want Curious and DAZ to be going in different directions...as a customer of both of them...I use their products because they are meant for each other. I love Poser and I don't want to see it fail. I love the DAZ products, and I also think they do business with their customers in mind...they have excellent customer service...and products. There are many instances of customer concern and feedback changing the direction of a company. If DAZ is off developing a product to compete with Poser, guess there may not be a lot that we can do about this. I respect DAZ for trying to come up with an alternative to Poser, if that is what it is....although it does not seem to be a full replacement to Poser, unless I'm misunderstanding what I've read, but even then, if the new product warrants my use, I'll give it a try. And who knows, I may use it and Poser 5. Competition is good, most often :) If DAZ is trying to move away from Poser, or at least just produce products up to Poser 4, then all my rhetoric is in vain...but if it is all a matter of that EULA, I think the Poser community can help nudge CL and DAZ to work it out.

Hey cliff you've gone and done it again. Thanks for making some of us think.

Oops, forming another bad habit here. Well said Dave-so. I tend to agree with you there. :)

"if CL goes under, my use of Poser ends. If DAZ goes under, my future pleasure of using their product ends as well." So, does this mean the program and all the products you already have stops working completely and you'll never be able to use what you already have? The company has to be in existance for that stuff to continue working? I think not. Whether CL or DAZ should fail doesn't mean 3D rendering or the existing Poser programs will cease to work. This is a hobby for most of us and not a way of life. Alot of people around here make me think they can't exist without Poser. It's almost like they live, eat, and sleep soley for Poser. You did have a life before you got involved in this media. I know I did and still do. This is a HOBBY for me and not my life. If either of the 2 companies prosper or fail, I still have the products I've purchased and they, along with the program, will still be useable and I won't die because one, the other, or both companies failed if it came to that.

I think I would just go MAD without Poser...how could you even live without it ???? This is all I do...day and night....haven't slept in 2 months. Well............guess I could go back to Bryce

"This is all I do...day and night....haven't slept in 2 months." WOW, you've got to be kidding. Lord dude, there is a whole world out there. Like I said before, this is a hobby for me and I don't loose any sleep over it at all. I have a job, family responsibilities, other things to do as well. I get to poser and working on something when I can and I sure don't live for this. I've had many hobbies in the past. This is just the one I'm currently working at. Until it gets boring and discusting (surprised it hasn't already with all bickering, backstabbing, favoritism, etc. that goes on in the poser community), I'll stick with it unless something more interesting comes along. I've been at Rosity for aver a year and I swear I've never seen as much of that (and definately in real life) as I have here.

I'm going to ahve to be as curt as possible if this is going to be shorter than hamlet - if I miss you out or am too breif, figure out who you sound most like from people I have directly responded to and clump yourself in with them . Greybro: "Awe come on who3d. That's not quite fair is it?" No, not at all fair. I'll go into depth with Anton but basically I made a query which is irrelevant to the platform (Poser 4 or 5) and got told "We support our products in Poser 4 not Poser 5.". If I'd kept my trap shut and not admitted I was using Poser 5 then I'd presumably have had a different response :( Jackson: "I agree about the lack of instructions, but it ain't just DAZ. I have products from vendors on many sites that have no dox at all; it's up to the buyer to fiddle and play to figure everything out. It's a pain and should be addressed." I can't help wonder why you managed to figure out exactly what my query was, what my "problem" was, and why I was therefore SO outraged with Reba/DAZ so quickly from so little from me when, it seems, others have much more to work on and are still scratching their heads. Cheers mate, you hit the nail on the head. With a hammer. Or something :) Dave-So: A little strong but basically a part of the warning I'm trying to flag up - to both unwitting Poser 5 users who could get stung, however unintentionally, and to DAZ for what I consider to be not, perhaps, the best customer service and marketing response in the world, ever. PheonixRising: "I just sent you a message before finding this. Why is it everythime people get a bit frustrated they march to the topic forums looking for blood? The product comes with a readme." Ahem. Want me to repeat teh readme here? Discard the fact that the web page it lists isn't there any more. Forget that (I assume, from Reba giving me your correct e-mail address) the e-mail address is wrong. Imagine you've JUST obtaine dthe ponytail and expansion - never seen it before. How much info does the readme give you on actually USING the hair set? "And I fail to see how the Platinum Club has anything to do with your point." IIRC that aspect was "I just paid out lots of money - you could too pay loads for the hair set OR loads for the Platinum club then get the hairset cheap - the way I went - and then find that DAZ don't support you because you're not using Poser 4". It's a fair bit of money to have paid, and I was trying to pre-empt a "You only paid $4 total, so push off" response by showing that in fact I'd paid a fair bit more (admittedly in the hope of long-term savings I'm now far from convinced about). "We cannot support P5 because we do not own it or plan to buy it. The program seems to be in a contant state of revision and it is not our place to de-bug it." My problem with the product has nothing to do with Poser 5, zilch, zippo, De Nada, nowt. "You comments about us and P5 will only cause problems between our companies." I beg your pardon? 1. where were you when there was a thread blowing fluffy kisses at DAZ and how wonderful it's after-sales support was, and how poo CL and their support were? It's only unfair when it's DAZ support that's being queried? I find that response to be offensive and somewhat bizzarre. "If you are upset I can understand but speculating this way is not good for anyone." What speculation? "I was away yesterday visiting my elderly aunt. I was exhusted and went to sleep when I got home. If I didn't respond fast enough I am sorry." Nope, it wasn';t your speed of response at all - I'd have been happy to receive your first e-mail when I got home and enter into a dialogue until we got to the point where you "got me" as well as Jackson seems to have. What got me was being told that although I was asking for documentation which simly isn't provided with the product, that my using Poser 5 was in any way an issue. Reba's comment, following on the heels of misinformation in the product's readme file (out of date, I assume) is what pushed my button into wanting to prevent other Poser 5 users from getting into similar scenario unwittingly. "also Just so there is no misunderstanding there is no real difference between P4 and P5 cr2's. P4 products work just fin in P5 with very few exeption from what I have read." Thankyou. This is precisely a large part of my point. My query has nothing to do with Poser 5 whatsoever, although I'm glad that this conversation is coming out now rather than later - the sooner this issues gets clarified or changed, the better for all concerned (I believe). "Please don't mislead people into thinking P4 items won't work if you have P5. This is far from the case. :) Everyone can have a bad day but you don't have to go for the throat." I have not been attempting to do this at all - quite the reverse. It is REBA of DAZ PRODUCTIONS who said that Poser 5 is not supported by DAZ. I wasn't going for the throat at all , and take offense that you have assumed (it seems) rather unpleasant and entirely inaccurate motivations behind my post. Crescent: "I'd suspect Daz meant that if there is an issue specific to P5, then they can't help. P5 ignores the MAT file instructions for the transparency fall-off setting, for example, and there isn't much that Daz can do about it." Absolutely. There was one P5 issue, as you mention, but that was sorted within seconds of loading the hair prop, without recourse to DAZ - and I wouldn't expect them myself of offering such support, not having Poser 5 (and being in a situation where they feel the need to be able to prove that, if need be). But there's a gulf between being unable to solve a P5-based probklem and telling a client that Poser 5 isn't supported - no mitigation. jbrugion: A sad, silly situation but.. yup. Agreed. thos this isn't a P5 related issue, but a product/documentation related issue. Dave-So: I agree - it's users DAZ should be supporting in the main, rather than the application. Though there could (sadly) be issues, in theory, where DAZ are unable to provide support due to being unable to replicate the problem (and trying to sort a problem u can't replicate is hell, pure hell!). PheonixRising on 10/25/02 10:37 Oh thanks, posting an image as poor as that (in a private communication about an issue I was having was one thing, but that abhorrance was never meant to be seen publically). I'm not great at art OR Poser, but now I look even worse. Are you actually STRIVING to annoy me??? "I think you missed the readme." Does everyone want to read this readme? Or maybe I HAVE missed one that wasn't mentioned during install...? by Moonbiter on 10/25/02 10:47 "Let me get this straight. DAZ can't/wont provide support on their products if they are used in a P5 environment?" Apparently - and I can't agree more with the rest of your post. Cliff Bowman

PheonixRising on 10/25/02 10:49 "Ps: Rereading you email I think you are daunted because there was a change in P5 someone reported where all the morphs for "changing" parts are now listed together into one giant list where in P4 they just appeared with the part they were using. Sorry. We have no control over that change in P5." Nope, not one of my issues at all. Does P5 do this? Hadn't noticed it... "Like I said all the dials are labeled with Prefixes though. Fringybangs start with FB... StrandBangs start with S.... Curled Bangs start with CB.... etc etc" Starting to get there now - although I've not seen that before. Maybe it's in 1 of the e-mails I haven't read? I'll get to them later, hopefully. "his is what I woudl describe as "somewhat inexcessive" as far as documentation for a product costing multiple tens of dollars is concerned (especially where the per-item manufacturing costs is low due to a lack of materials being used). I'm not a particularly skilled hairdresser, but I'm pretty sur eI know where the fringe is. I'd guess that maybe fringy bands, therefore, would be near the fringe (or be the fringe). Since they are curled, though, I couldn't tell you where the Curled Bangs are. I'd like to refer to the image no. in the user manual (documentation) where all this is laid out, except it isn't. there's no such documentation. where I said in my original e-mail: 'Anyway, I wondered if there was any documentation on the huge array of options because I'm having trouble shaping the hair past (rather than through) the young lady's cheeks' What I meant was 'I would like to see some documentation that tells me how to use this thing, labels the parts, or at least describes what the acronyms used MEAN'. In case this still isn't clear, let's start with some of the advertising blurb: ---------------------------------------------------- HAIR - 59.95 Perfectly transmapped, over 100 poseable styles are possible using Vicki's Changing Ponytail figure 5 poseable ponytails 4 poseable bang options 4 free textures Hairline shaping morphs to fit all your versions of Vicki or Poser4Nude Female. 16 shaping, stylizing, motion, and length morphs EXPANSION PAK - $29.95 73 NEW detailed shaping, stylizing, motion, and length morphs for the 6 bangs, 1 base and 11 ponytails. Includes a new type of morph, not available in any other product for Poser, which swells the size of each individual strand without changing the way you've styled the hair. Expands Victoria 2.0's Changing Ponytail Collection to 11 Ponytail alternates and 6 Bang Alternates 5 New Ponytail poseable alternates 2 New Bang alternates ----------------------------------------------------- Now I for one would contend that a product of that apparent power, that aparent flexibility, that much complexity and a full prioe tag of nigh-on $90 deserves SOME documentation. Poser 5 is busy rendering a test aniamtion at present - based on MIMIc with "Ugly Girl from the 60's" that you've so kindly posted publically for me, and using said hairpeice. It's gonna take a while, so I can't read out the names of the dials for you - but are you SERIOUSLY telling me that a plea from a Poser 5 user for some form of documention shoudl be met with a response telling him (or her) that DAZ products are not supported under Poser 5??? Does such a product not DESERVE at least a simple manual? Does it not even deserve a readme which gives up-to-date web and e-mail addresses???? Questor on 10/25/02 10:52 Poser 5 was never the issue - at least until DAZ made it the issue. Moonbiter on 10/25/02 11:11 Can't add anything of any value here, certainly can't contradict :) danfarr on 10/25/02 11:17 My problem was and is unrelated to the fact that I run Poser 5. see above, but CL and Poser 5 are irrelevant to the product containing no documentation, my asking (initially quite politely I thought) for assistance in finding such documentation, and then Poser 5 being made such an issue out of. "As far as the future development of Poser 5 specific products (that incedently are useless for the majority of the customers who still only have Poser 4 at this time) we are working with Curious Labs on an agreement that would make us feel comfortable to do so (a unilateral agreement for all developers)." Yay, go for it. "This is definitely not a "pissing match" but a real catch 22 situation." If we're going to use terms like "pissing" then, frankly, I felt pissed on BEFORe Anton dug in and started sharing the exact contents of private communications (OK, I'm learning that nothing in a private communication is sacred around here, it's just taking time to come to terms with). I had an issue unrelated to anything but poor and incorrect documentation in a product purchased from DAZ, and feel like I've been pissed on from a great height - at least partly by someone shouting "Hey! Have some consideration will you? I'm trying to enjoy the sunshine up here!" "Our number one interest is to support you the customers." Glad to hear it, and I hope that this glitch at best contributes to getting the best resolution to what/who you support sooner than otherwise - because if it doesn't then it's been a waste of time and effort :( danfarr on 10/25/02 11:25 "I wanted to mention one more thing. As always we do offer a full 30 day satisfaction guarantee on our products. So if Poser 5 is unable to support Poser 4 content and you are unable to get the support you need from CL about combatability of Poser 4 created products we are willing to give your money back on your purchase. But according to Curious Labs, Poser 4 products should work fine in Poser 5." Please stop it. Stop the pissing match, because that's most certainly what you're doing. Creative Labs cannot help me with the utter lack of documentation provided with Victoria's Changing Ponytail Collection & Victoria's Changing Ponytail Expansion Pak. This is in no way whatsoever a Poser 5 problem but soley an issue with DAZ/Anton providing what I consider to be an incomplete (as undocumented) product, and the failure of DAZ to respond to my initially polite call for help with a positive or helpful response first time. second time - anton's e-mails to me - are probably much better, but to tell a customer he's not supported as the first step and attempt to lay the blame at Curious Labs's door is so incredibly ingenuous that I am seriously considering requesting a refund for everythign from platinum membership and onwards and washing my hands of DAZ. Get a backbone, stand up for yourself and stop trying to spread waht looks like malicious rumour!!! Questor on 10/25/02 11:33 "But to slam someone for not supporting something they can't use is ludicrous." If you can find anywhere wher eI have done this then I apologise from the ehart of my bottom, but that is so far removed from my issues that I'm stunned at how well the DAZ folk and/or supporters seem to be making this the issue. "Seems to me that someone just wanted to rant and start another argument." I refute that utterly and without exception, and indeed take great offense from it as nothing could have been further from my mind. Please respond to this and let me know if, having hopefulyl realised that Poser 5 is indeed irrelevant to my plight, let me know if you still think I was trolling, and I shall have to consider how to proceed (e.g. whether to quite posting on this subject on the basis of being unable to make myself understood). Moonbiter on 10/25/02 12:36 You've a good way with words :) Lapis: Hehe - no worries. My favourite one is where people think I'm on "Daz's side" or "CL's side" or "Renderosity's side". I am, of course, on my side - I want stuff that works. Preferably stuff that works well, and works easily - and that's about the limit of my agenda (with a side-serving of consideration for other users who might fall into the same pitfalls as myself if not warned - but that comes after wanting the best for myself!). now...what else has been written meanwhile? I ought to read Anton's e-mails... Cliff Bowman PS had to split my post in 2, apparently it was too big...

Poser 5 was never the issue - at least until DAZ made it the issue The assumption that poser 5 was the issue was taken from your thread title. Sorry if that assumption was wrong but it's kind of misleading to read:- P5: DAZ/Platinum club - bad for Poser 5 users? Where the thread is labelled P5: being poser 5 specific, and Poser 5 users at the end. Only to find out that you have a problem with a "general" poser problem using the hair. This is not the implication given. My apologies for misunderstanding you but it's an easy thing to do lately with so much Daz or Curious Labs bashing going on. :)

I'd like to ask that this be taken private from here on.

Seems like a customer service issue that should not be worked out in public.

Thanks.

-Jeff

cherokee69 :) That was a joke for sure :) I do have a life beyond Poser. I've noticed that most of the lists and forums, unless heavily moderated, are turning into bitch sessions, and folks slamming each other. The Yahoo Poser group is like that, Bryce, and several others. I know I don't help the situation here all that much...but I think I've stated my reasons. Not sure why this has gotten like it is...especially the cutting on each other...it is easier to do online like this, and I think if we were to sit down and have a normal conversation, much of this would go away. Its very hard to infer a tone, and obviously impossible to see someone's facial expressions using email :) So things are sometimes taken a bit differently than what the poster has stated or meant to state.

Hey Cliff...you succeeded in keeping it shorter than Hamlet... A bit longer than Short Shorts, however :)

lol. You guys are so viscous. I give up. I'm going to stick with answering emails. You need arour and a bodyguard around here lately. :) Who, we tried so hard to answer your questions and make you happy. You could have responded to at least one of my emails. Anton

Whatever feelings there may be between or within both companies the decision to work together again may not be entirely in their hands any longer. CL/EGI-SYS and DAZ both have shareholders and a board of directors. So it just isn't as simple as stopping the train once it's moving and change directions (sort of speak). Obviously, DAZ felt it necessary to move their company and business into a new arena, expand their growth and have invested sufficiant time and money in those areas and dropping them now is highly unlikely. Once those wheels are in motion, there is no going back. I think any investor would be unhappy to learn whatever money they invested in a project wouldn't come to some of fruitition. As well as, Curious Labs/EGI-SYS have to make sure that their shareholder's earnings are protected and continue to remain protected, possibly through their current EULA. I am of a mind to no longer believe that it will be changed because of those reasons. I don't think it is beyond the realm of belief that there is going to be a measure of animosity between both companies considering that they are now going to be direct competitors. However, unlike Curious Labs, DAZ has the ability to build a stable application and supply product for that application. Whereas Curious Labs can only build a... well... hopefully build a stable application. Working together will certainly be more to the advantage of DAZ, who would have two markets in which to create and distribute product for. Whereas, the only benefit for Curious Labs, would be that they don't have to try and scrape up revenue or money to fill product and increase value to their application. As it stands, Curious Labs has stated that DAZ figures will work in Poser 5. Perhaps as the members here and at other sites find trouble spots with getting DAZ figures to work in Poser 5, they contact Curious Labs to alert them what those trouble spots are so Larry, Steve and crew can fix those spots so that they do. Rather than jumping down on DAZ and bitching at them, since they have stated that they wont purchase Poser 5 till the EULA issue is resolved (in order to protect their own copyrights) and that Steve Cooper has specifically said several times that they would work in Poser 5. I can understand the frustration that many of the Community members here may be feeling regarding the split between Curious Labs and DAZ. Some of you may feel prompted to support one company over another, or some may be able and happy enough to support both. Either way, the likelihood of both companies going back several steps, to the way things were before, are unlikely and we need to be realistic enough to understand that and support who we support without faulting anyone for doing their best to survive in this business. If you have a legitimate beef, state it, but state it in the right direction. Just my thoughts, Jack

Final Scorecard:

Dave-So gets mucho quatloos for staying on point, with a reasonable point, reasonably and courteously expressed.

That said, Questor gets the most quatloos for making the most valid points. (DAZ obviously can't commit to create the compatibility that CL promised and only CL can deliver.)

Anton gets points for trying to reach and service his customer, despite said customer starting this thread with an outrageously inflammatory heading. Considering that heading, Dan Farr also deserves points for keeping his cool in his own reply. (Perspective: The only P4/P5 issue involved here is perhaps that the rearrangement of the parameter dials made use of the product more confusing; and Cliff couldn't reach Anton to expand on the documentation as quickly as -- in an ideal world -- he might have wanted to. I'm not knocking Cliff, running into a few bad e-mail links on his way to Anton is the sort of thing that frustrates anybody, especially with the arthritis kicking up -- been there, too -- but no matter how you slice it, there's no way this tiny problem comes out DAZ/PLATINUM CLUB BAD FOR P5 USERS.
No . . . way.)

Pokeydots gets the quatloos for keeping perspective, as does SAMS3D for being perhaps the only person to make the point that the Platinum Club name dragged into this means only one thing: unbelievably slashed prices, a very important form of customer support and enhancement of the "Poser experience."

[More perspective: what are the incompatiblities, anyway?

a.) MAT poses. A biggie, to be sure. Of course, CL didn't invent MAT poses or offer them as a feature of P4, so they're not obligated to make them work under P5. However, it would be much easier to make them work again if the problem were tackled from CL's end, and it's really in their customer good-will interest to do so; if we would concentrate our efforts on politely requesting this enhancement, it's probably very doable. But if CL never tackles it, well, hell, MAT poses were a hack in the first place, someone will hack a new MAT pose maker that works in P5, and then no doubt lots of people who offer MAT poses in their products, DAZ and independents, will find it in their interests to offer P5 updates. Somebody'll do it, but you can hit your high chair with a spoon all you like, it won't happen overnight.

b.) The Face Room. Since I'm not out to bash CL, I won't say Big Deal. But notice that Morph Putty does work on Victoria's face morphs; it's the same thing as the Face Shaping Tool, it's just not in the Face Room. It's nothing to write home about, IMHO, but neither is the Face Shaping Tool. Yes, the photo thing doesn't work with Victoria and Mike, and that's because CL didn't feel like spending a hundred grand to accommodate a product they don't make and won't profit from, and DAZ didn't feel like spending a hundred grand to add a new feature to a product that was already worth what they were charging for it. When you consider that most products in the economy have a profit margin of 1-10 per cent -- and usually closer to 1 -- can you blame CL or DAZ for thinking that they probably aren't going to get the millions of bucks in extra orders it would take to justify this expenditure? Or suspecting that the crybabies who flame them would not stand for the price hike necessary to cover it? I don't. And -- calming back down into Perspective mode -- it's not as if the photo thing works all that well even for Don and Judy.

Summary: the only true non-trivial compatibility issue (Face Room is a new feature) is the transparency thing on MAT files. It will probably be addressed very soon by the same CR2-hackers who invented MAT poses in the first place. Is all DAZ stuff -- any DAZ stuff --- useless now and DAZ refusing to do anything about it? NAAAH. Has CL made all pre-5 stuff useless and refused to do anything about it? NAAAAH. That being the case, is there any reason for hysterical ranting against both companies? NAAAAAAAAH.]

Final score, then:

Questor -- Most Quatloos (winner)
Dave-So -- Mucho Quatloos (loyal opposition)
Anton, Dan Farr, pokeydots, SAMS3D -- (honorable mentions)

Submitted for your approval by the referee,
Bill

OK...my apologies as well, for going off on the DAZ/CL thing...it did seem the original post was concerned with that and the overall situation... I've made my point, I think, and will sign off as well...unless someone else would like to start another thread.... By the way Anton, I bought the products mentioned as well...and agree on the documentation.

Questor: "Poser 5 was never the issue - at least until DAZ made it the issue The assumption that poser 5 was the issue was taken from your thread title. Sorry if that assumption was wrong but it's kind of misleading to read:-" My bad, in trying to keep it short (blink!) It wasn't MY original issue - but I felt that DAZ telling me that I wasn't supported becaus eI'd said I was using Poser 5 - despite my problem being a general support issues that the version of Poser doesn't affect - added an extra issues (that of DAZ not supporting Poser 5 users - according to them) that I felt was worthy of discussion :( Jeff: Seems like a customer service issue that should not be worked out in public. I personally think it should have been worked out in private e-mail to begin with. I've e-mailed Anton and hopefully we can thrash things outprivately and post a "closed, sorted" post anon :) Dave-So: "Its very hard to infer a tone" Isn't it just though? :( PheonixRising: "lol. You guys are so viscous. I give up. I'm going to stick with answering emails. You need arour and a bodyguard around here lately. :) Who, we tried so hard to answer your questions and make you happy. You could have responded to at least one of my emails." ...and that's why I've refused to give you my phone number. WE'RE "viscous" (do you mean vicious or thick I wonder?). I am sorry I did not answer any of your e-mails whilst out with my wife and 15-month old son, or before answering the many wild and wonderful posts on here where the thing was obviously getting way out of control. I am just as unable to respond when no-where near my computer as you - I had hoped that I would be as worthy of forgiveness for that :( See my e-mail(s) (about to author #2). Cliff Bowman