WOW ... looking great! I like that Elephant :) Chris

Let's see a comparison between Firefly and P4 using your pics.

My God! Is that Michael in the first pic? Love the "sweaty" texture and facial/body morphs! Drooliscious!

I'd like to see s Firefly render comparison to Shademaster's Poser 4 Render Upgrade of the same scenes. That would be avery interesting challange.

Egad! How long did it take you to render with that much "hair" on the groundplain????

I really really like it...I did a recent render with the Firefly and then the same render exactly with the Poser 4 renderer...and the Firefly was much better. Mind you for some things the Poser 4 renderer is still really good, but not in complexly light scenes with different surfacing materials than the usual Mike and Vicky photoshop generated texture maps. Harvey

Just out of curiosity, what where the render settings, and how long did it take to render? ~DM

Is it hair... or noise in the material room?

I used P5 yesterday for the first time since SP1 came out, (experimenting with SP2.1) I rendered the same scene with both P4, P4 in P5, and Firefly. 24 light global lighting, (by Blackhearted) 2x Mike, 3x Vic, hires textures, transmapped hair on the females, and the result surprised me. The P4 renderer was on a par with firely, the shadows were a little better, a little more subtle with firefly. This is switching everything on except texture filtering, (texture filtering is a no no, for hires textures, renders stop when you run out of memory, see the beta forum) I didn't use any of the rooms, default everything save the switches in render options. The P4 in P5 renderer was quite a suprise, while the p4 and firefly renders were consistent, the p4 in p5 render skewed the lighting, if you flick through the three you can see the shadows move back and forward. The real odd thing thing was that one of the vickies has a half shaded face, but in the p4 in p5 render the face was fully lit. Another weird thing is that one of the vickies (the same one actually :) is using blunt hair, down to the shoulders, yet in firely it's actually lit, (from the inside) whereas the P4 render is dark, (as it should be) I figure that's because firefly has a much more advanced lighting model, and I haven't tried to tweak it yet. It's a little daunting to hear people talk about working out depth of field on a calculator I'd show you the images, but they're both big, and vaguely pornographic, technically speaking they within the TOS, but given what has been yanked lately, I suspect the same fate would befall them :) later jb

You didn't happen to time them did you praxis? I'm trying P5 for the first time in a while and am having some better luck with some things, but the FF renderer still crawls. Even in draft mode with everything off is 10x slower than P4's higher settings. FF even crawls when rendering blank space (for me anyway).

More P5 marketing drivel? Is this not what the Galleries are for? Perhaps CL needs to try to entice sales again? Sorry to take such a hard-nosed stance, but this was the same type of post made pre-release with P5 (ie, "California Dreaming" and "Ruby Tuesday") in order to get the community to drool over pre-ordering P5; and we all know the history of P5 enough not to rehash it. Anthony should also share his system specs since, IIRC, his system is well above the average users'.

Now I'm not attempting to sell a darn thing. But I have to say that the firefly in 5 has come a long way from thr P4 linear render engine of P4. While in some cases the textures do better in linear (More detail) the FF engine yields better visual effects. Since it's arrival all the images I've posted are all FF renders. including the hacker series. P5 still does some wonky things but, it has become (at least for me) the prefered application to work in. True, first impressions are a killer and CL could ahve done a good deal better, and they have a good deal of damage control to do. But they have come a good distance and thier application is now in a position where it is useable for the avaerage user (I Think) So say what you will, but for myself I have to admit that CL has done a great deal to both fix and stabilize thier application and answer the needs of the poser user. Are there going to be the die hard dislikers? sure, I think those ppl are always a good barometer as to whether you are doing what's right versus good businness. Is there going to be even more "Hype" you bet, that is what the world expects now, if you aren't gonna hype it to death then it isn't any good. whether it is good or not. Marketing tells you you gotta have this, and will keep it up till yu finnaly cave. Personally, I would challenge anyone to look me in the eye and say they are completley and utterly 100000% happy with anything they buy and that every last feature the wonder thing has is deftly and expertly used, and if you had to do it again you'd do it twice because it is that good. Likley, no one could, I know that I would not. There is always something one doesn't like or finds useless, but gets it anyway and finds that for what they got it for, does a good job. In my opinion, P5 is pretty much there, or rather where is should have been for an intial release, it just too bad it took so long to get here.

I am not passing any judgement on P5, since I do not - and likely never will - have it. What I am finding less tolerable is: 1) CL using the fora for posting pictures to promote P5. IIRC, the Galleries are for posting pictures and they usually only get fora exposure when they: a) are WIPs and/or seeking advice, b) may contain others' copyrighted works, c) part of the Hot 20, d) display newly available FreeStuff, etc. 2) Although most of us who have been around know many of the CL crew, the lack of using CL credentials in the post could lead newcomers to think that these are renders made by average, run of the mill users; not the makers of the software. 3) CL and crew have been silent in the fora, up until recently, and instead of promptly answering bug reports in the Beta forum, supposedly because they have had precious little time, they can find the time to post new renders in the fora? 4) Just like in the Beta forum, system specs are a major influence on the capabilities. Anthony had previously listed his system specs (which are well above the recommended specs, btw). This gives the impression that an average system is also capable of the same output. 5) I thought that advertising/marketing were not allowed in the fora? Granted, this is not blatant marketing, but it has the same "feel" as the "California Dreaming" and "Ruby Tuesday" threads in trying to pursuade users to purchase P5; especially seeing as how it is a CL employee posting and the title of the post touts P5's firefly renderer and lack of postwork.

I'm only on the SR2 since I started having problems after installing the patches and I'm not impressed with Firefly yet. Is it improving with each patch? Because of my problems I've been afraid to install the rest of the patches and up to SR2, firefly is not better than P4 unless you need hair or water reflection. Textures look much better in p4 for me right now but if firefly is improving I'll consider the rest of the patches. (~and hope for the best)

For speed, I'd go for p4 any day, for my setup about 6-7 mins, (all but 20 seconds of which was calculating the shadow maps) P4 in P5, 15 mins, (rigged to as P4 like as possible, including "ignore shader trees") 10 mins of which was shadow map. Firefly, gave up timing it. I did it several time to verify a bug somebody reported, (didn't happen to me) went back to look every 30-60 mins or so, (I was watching TV) I knew it was going to take ages, I had everything switched on, so I purposfully didn't bother. You want firefly, you wait. So yeah, the renderer is much, much slower in P5. My Spec: P4 2Ghz 1Gb PC2700 DDR RAM 80Gb drive (20Gb poser partition) Radeon 9700Pro + DX9 drivers & DirectX 9.0 RC0 DVD & CDR/RW XP pro, (SP1 refuses to install) but fully patched appart from that. (No temp files found) Zone Alarm and NAV running in the background. later jb

La misma vieja mierda, diverso d. ;]

CyberStretch, as far as your concerns as to Curious Labs promoting their product in this forum. This is the POSER FORUM and Curious Labs is Poser! This is a forum to discuss their product.

"This is the POSER FORUM and Curious Labs is Poser! This is a forum to discuss their product." Discuss, not Market/Promote! Big difference.

They make merchants here at this site put promotional images and ads over in Product Showcase forum and gallery. They even made Rena start posting Poserworld promos over there. Why should software vendors and site partners be any different? This thread could easily have gone into Product Showcase forum like any advertisement.

So what your saying is Kupa and any employee of Curious Labs is not allowed to say anything or show anything in a forum that is for THIER product? This is not the Poserworld Forum or the Daz Forum or the Free Stuff forum for that matter. It is the Poser Forum!

I'm saying if it applies to one member posting an ad here, it should apply to all. The member working for a company that owns poser and is a site partner, rather than being a Renderosity merchant, shouldn't matter. Advertising is advertising.

what's next then, only asking poser questions in the "poser technical" forum? oops, I guess this what a question for the "where do I ask this forum"

Okay this is just rediculous. How in the world can the two images and the sentences, "I think it speaks for itself ;-)", and "And this one just- well, trumpets Firefly's abilities - no pun! ;-)", be misconstrued as advertising?!?

Neither image nor wording implies anything more than personal pleasure at achieving a successful render.

So what if Nosfiratu works for Curious Labs! Does this mean every image submitted by him will now be considered advertising?

I can't believe how quickly this degenerated into a complaint about something totally unrelated to the technical aspects of the pictures that were presented. Look at any number of other posts in this forum that show firefly renders and you'll find the same type of comments from people totally unrelated to CL.

"This is a learning forum" ;] At least that's what they keep telling us. ;]

I had a couple renders I was pretty proud of. Wanted to show them off. That's all. No agenda, no nothing. It is without publc comment that I have deleted them.

And? Isn't showing us what Poser 5 can do helping us to learn?

Thanks for the info, Praxis. I expect a long wait with FF in production mode. But my problem is it's so sloooow even in draft, with nothing turned on. This makes the FF renderer unuseable, as I often make draft renders to check my progress. On the bright side, though, I was able to work in P5 for an hour and a half before lockup. That's a huge improvement for me. Course, I didn't use any hair, collision detection, or any of the new features. Maybe that's why.

No probs, and apologies for the fuss, Anthony.

you people are unbelievable...got any other links to the pics anthony? I would to see them. Cyber, quick now, name all the nics of CL employee, I can think of four of the top of my head...all of which took turns posting in the beta, they only took thankgiving week off...which is where most of the cries of where is CL happened. BTW: Daz is doing the same thing, mostly at PoserPros though.

Frankly I wish all the people who "Never have any intention of buying P5" would quit commenting on it. I wish someone would make a "Pointtless bitching and whining" forum.

BTW Nosfiratu, I really wish you hadn't given in to the Trollish behavior and deleted the images. I never got to see em. :(

How are people supposed to be inspired to learn new techniques and processes if members who KNOW the tricks of the program are not allowed to display their works without being blasted as covert advertisers.

Who better to teach people how to use a program than THE PEOPLE WHO HELPED DEVELOP IT!

I seldom jump in and get angry about an issue posted on these forums, but this one has bothered me for a very long time.

Nosfiratu's deleted two very good renders for no logical reason other than a desire to keep the peace. The loss of the images was a disservice to this forum for a couple of reasons.

First, because the images were great technical demonstrations of what the firefly engine can do. They generated the very type of questions that a learning forum should: questions about the models used, the time required to render, the render settings used, etc...

Second, because it is a reinforcement of a dangerous trend. Renderosity has become so obsessed with remaining ad free on anything but the ad forum, that people are becoming rabid about it and jumping the gun on anything that might be misconstrued as an ad. No one said anything about, "Now in the Marketplace", or "On Sale Now at Curious Labs." There was no marketing involved at all.

Renderosity needs to rethink its policy on advertising and how it is handled. Blatant spam is one thing to jump all over, but in cases like this, things are going too far.

Posts from CL employees regarding Poser 5 are on topics and quite acceptable. This thread broke no rules in the slightest. I am bothered to see that Nosfiratu deleted his own posts. I for one see no problem with aynone posting images here showing off Poser's abilities. If I'm not mistaken that is one of the reasons for the existance of this forum - to discuss using Poser. My annoyance in this case goes to the members who harrassed Nosfiratu until he deleted his own things. I will decide when a thread is not acceptable. Please stop trying to do my job. Thank you. Lyrra the Barely Awake

"I wish someone would make a "Pointtless bitching and whining" forum." zechs, we had one once upon a time. It was called C&D and they should have made sure some were inside it when they boarded the doors closed. ;) (Just ask Ironbear, he ran that forum.) Nice face Brian! :)

I, for one, am angry. Why on EARTH! did you delete these images????? I want to see all experiments with P5 and, listen up folks, I am well aware and quite old enough to tell the difference between an advert and an experimental render, no matter who posts it. This is rediculous. Q

Sorry Ironbear. My fingers didn't fly as fast as my temper on this post. No hard feelings. Thanks for understanding.

OK, people. We all work in 3D so we all have the concept of "light" down. The building you are currently occupying has a number of brightly lit rectangles, which are probably hidden by a piece of semi-translucent draped cloth. This is called a "window". Approach your nearest window. Reach out, and move the cloth. Don't worry, you won't crash anything and the simulation recalculates instantly with perfect collision detection. The "window"contains a piece of material with a Trans value of 1 and a Refraction of about 1.667. Because of this, you can see through the "window". You will notice tens of thousands of props, all with unbelievable texure, bump, transparency, displacement- every type of map and shader imaginable. Talk about OpenGL previews- You don't even have to wait for a render- And even Firefly can't hold a candle to the stunning realism. NOTE - At the risk of severe disappointment, be warned that you will probably NOT see anything having to do with temples, swords, bare-breasted women, etc. Of course, you probably also won't see any marauding dragons, hydras, orcs, or that sortof nastiness. You will see a bunch of pig men though and may see a house mouse or two. These are just simple quirks, nothing to be alarmed about. Somewhere in the building you occupy is an object called a "door". It is usually of darkened wood and sitting in a corner of a room or at the end of a hall. Open this door. Again note the perfect collision detection. Now step through the door, being sure to close it behind you. You are now "outside", which is the metaphorical equivalent of falling into the workspace - but don't panic! - You can always return to your studio through the same door. That is, unless you've forgotten your "key". Now step outside. You did bring warm clothes, yes? The atmospheric effects are unreal! Wind forces, waves, even things called "rain", or "snow". And talk about volumetrics! Look at all the figures walking around. All free! They may not be named Don, Judy, Will, Penny, Michael, or Victoria- In fact, it's a safe bet none of them have "Millennium" in their names. Most of them do resemble trolls, aliens, etc. with their funky proportions. Go ahead, laugh at them. They're products of a cheesy third-party outfit that thinks they can model. BUT - Admit it, no one can top those maps - and no application can top the EYES rendering engine for speed, reliability, and photorealism. Take a few deep breaths. Did I mention atmospheric effects? This place is like Adobe Atmosphere on steroids! Spend a few hours exploring and drinking in the stunning 3D effects. Interact with some of the figures. Now there's an AI engine for you! Take the time to truly explore your small section of this big 3D environment called "Earth". Enjoy it. After all that is done, come back to your home and go in through the same "door" you left from. Sit down in front of your artificial window and fire up any application you wish, be it 2D, 3D, or something unrelated. Play with it for a while. You'll eventually realize that nothing can ever truly replace the romp you just enjoyed. Best of all, you can go through your "door" and interact with the big studio beyond any time you want. In fact, the more you do, the longer you'll live - meaning you'll have even more time to play with your computers. I'm going to shut down and go practice what I preach for a while. Enjoy your Sundays! ;-) Anthony Hernandez Who is NOT speaking on behalf of any third party

Attached Link: http://www2.hdm-stuttgart.de/~sw19/visu/Egyptian4.jpg

Attached Link: http://www2.hdm-stuttgart.de/~sw19/visu/Oliphaint.jpg

"I can't believe how quickly this degenerated into a complaint about something totally unrelated to the technical aspects of the pictures that were presented."

Where are the references to the "technical aspects of the pictures" in the posts? "I think it speaks for itself ;-)" and "And this one just- well, trumpets Firefly's abilities - no pun! ;-)" constitute a technical discussion?

To me, posting a picture of your product, labeling it as such in the title of the post, and not engaging in any discussion about it infers advertising, not discussion or learning.

"Look at any number of other posts in this forum that show firefly renders and you'll find the same type of comments from people totally unrelated to CL."

You see, that is the difference. If a member "totally unrelated to CL" posts renders, it is different than when a company/Merchant does the same with their own products. "Word of Mouth" is allowed while "Advertising" is not.

"Cyber, quick now, name all the nics of CL employee, I can think of four of the top of my head...all of which took turns posting in the beta..."

Well, DefaultGuy is one. ;0)

The issue is that CL employees should identify themselves as such, people should not have to guess; especially newcomers.

"they only took thankgiving week off...which is where most of the cries of where is CL happened."

In the Beta forum, there were several posts that went unanswered for quite some time, and the answer from CL was that they were "too busy to post"; although copy and pasting SR announcements seems to take less time than copying and pasting "Problem Noted. We are looking into it." regarding bug reports. All the beta testers wanted was a little acknowledgement that they were not testing in vain; and some never even received a "." bookmark from CL, nevermind any comments.

Out of the first 25 (out of 555) posts in the Beta forum, I can only see 5 in which a CL employee that I recognize posted to the thread; out of 19 threads that appear to require technical feedback. That is around a 25% response rate and only the first of 23 pages worth of posts; and this is not even a Holiday Week.

"BTW: Daz is doing the same thing, mostly at PoserPros though."

Different sites, different policies.

As already stated, if you allow CL to promote their products, then the other Merchants/Vendors should be allowed to do the same. Do a search in the FN&TC, Poser, and Product Showcase forums for "advertising" to see some of the historical discussions and decisions by mods/admins on moving/removing "ad posts" and the reason behind the creation of the Product Showcase Forum and Gallery. Just because "they are Poser" and they are site sponsors, should not mean that they can have preferential treatment over other members/Merchants.

Some of the posts, for reference:

1. Forum News and Team Contact Forum:

• What is happening here ? by pokeydots on 11/21/02
• A question to the Mods / Admins by Kaibach on 8/3/02

1. Poser Forum: - Product Showcase Forum and Art Gallery Guidelines... by ClintH on 2/26/02

• Reminder about commercial items and this forum by ScottA on 3/9/02
• Just a question to void any unwanted message. by Virus on 12/5/02

1. Product Showcase Forum: - "Welcome to the Product Showcase Forum. The Showcase Forum and Gallery are intended for all commercial related postings within our community. This is a highlight area where our membership is invited to review in greater detail the various art products, software and resource site subscriptions available for purchase."

• coming soon.... by atom on 6/20/02

It is great to see that DefaultGuy has so much time to create tutorials and respond to Beta bugs. :0)

For more technical information, please go to the Bugs forum. I posted there yesterday in repsonse to the following user issue http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=990485&Reply=990581#10 Thanks for your continued support, -Brian

Thanks for the tips guys.

It is interesting. A mod here finds no problem with the post that started this thread, but yet Cyberstretch does (who incidently, is not planning on buying Poser 5). So, instead of ignoring this meaningless thread, he turns it into a personal vendetta against CL. But I guess that's how he gets his jollies. And have a great day!