i am not understanding the locking of the thread a bit down, by minuteman. threads get locked for warez. threads get locked for personal bashing. threads can get locked, or, even deleted, for bashing poser five. threads get moved, if they are considered a non poser learning experience for the community at large. i read that thread, and, i saw nothing reprehensible enough for it to be locked, and, locked quickly. granted, it could have spurred some interesting "debate" about the merits of poser, and what folks can do with it. but, what is wrong with debate? it can be part of the "learning" process? pop...pop....Poppi!!!

I imagine it was locked because it obvious flame-bait. Anyone ever heard of Minuteman before? Although the writing style does remind me of Bebop. Of course, that may just be coincidence.

I think it is interesting whenever someone trashes art so much, that if you go check their gallery there is nothing there....

I have to wonder why people like Minuteman even come into places like this in the first place, if they hate digital art. What do they gain from it? I wonder why they bother. shrug Maybe the admins were worried it would get out of control. Melanie

It wasn't going to go anywhere constructive. I've seen those kinds of remarks a number of times and they never do (go anywhere constructive). People just get angry. Don't get me wrong, I've read interesting perspectives on art but it always gets ugly sooner or later. Maybe instead of locking it, they should move stuff like that to the "Art Theory" forum. Here in the Poser Forum, it just gets ugly. And I don't think for one minute it wasn't flamebaiting.

It looked like the same old tired, "there is no art on Renderosity" thread to me. But with worse language and poorer manners. I don't care if people think there is art here or not...I just wish they wouldn't trash the people who are enjoying what they are doing here. Looks like there are people trolling artists that get into the Hot 20 too. Now I think about as little about the Hot 20 as possible, but what's the point of sending nasty IM's to people who find themselves there? It's cheap and it's childish. Don't like the Hot 20? Don't look. Don't like the gallery? Don't visit. Or do something better and show how it should be done...you can do that without trashing someone else. Personally I'd rather look forward to ladynimue's latest list of graphics. She picked some very nice ones this weekend.

probably TOS violation, started biting into each other personally, and that's a no no. I do love that almost 99% of the time if you check the user posting the complaints, they have no gallery, no images, and are just baiting people into a storm. very unproductive. shrug

'Maybe the admins were worried it would get out of control' GET out of control? I think it was already out of control in the original post. Using infantile language and insults a 5 year-old moron could better aren't exactly great ways to spark a deep, soul-searching discussion amongst poser artists. Maybe if the guy actually had a point (other than 'your all 'shite'), it might have helped. I imagine part of the admins job is to spot troublemakers and nip them in the bud quick. mac

well, it seems as if this was just some jerk spouting about what he/she did not like about poser gallery. the quick locking kind of made me feel like...gosh, the mods think that the population here cannot "handle" a thread like that. sure, the poster may have been a trouble maker from the beginning...but, i'm not a child, and neither are most of the folks here. i think the thread would have soon died. and, yeah, sadly there are some groups, like raph.com, who view poser as a joke. still, they do have a couple of gallery postings (to post there you must be "voted" in)by some of our own poser users. i doubt that minuteman is even a junior member of that site, though. as for the poser gallery...has anyone seen the latest by picky? awesome. i can learn by just looking at it. the 20....actually, this week it is really good. (that means i like what got voted in). Looks like there are people trolling artists that get into the Hot 20 too. sadly, this is true. my last render made the 20 for almost 2 weeks. i ended up disabling comments and rankings. don't folks around here have jobs? looks to me like some just hang out...like a gang on the corner...and make problems for others. but, what do i know? my best friend is a bird.

I have to agree with you Poppi, that thread would have been recognized for what it was and ended quick. As for the Hot 20, I don't always have time to surf the galleries everyday, so I check it out from time-to-time to see what really good pieces I have missed (although, IMHO, there are pieces there that make me shrug my shoulders wondering how they got there, and others that should be there, are not). And as for your last piece Poppi, I loved it and if I remember correctly, I voted for it.

Are you all referring to the 'Hot 15'? It's 15 now that at least 5 slots are permenantly spammed in positions! :)

I belive he was attempting to insult the Poser community here at Renderosity, I belive it was mentioned before that he had no gallery, I belive this person has no right to talk and critisize, I also belive this person thinks that his work is substandard therefore he has not posted any. By saying that 99% of the work he has seen was crap...well that just shows that he can't take critisism.

Trolling is a TOS violation. How do you stop it? Ignore the trolls and they'll no longer find any entertainment value.

I dont know I kind of liked the way the thread ended. And it was definitly going nowear fast.

Definitely a Troll....one should never feed The Trolls :) About 15 years old I'd say....could be male or female...at that age both sexes can be real "bongheads". I suspect this person and their buddies are giggling like "dorkwads" and cruising on to the next site by now....

Gulp... uh... go easy on the mods in this case. I'd made an off-color, off topic joke, but realizing that wasn't the R'osity way, and that I was just "feeding the troll", went back and deleted it a minute later, however the thread was locked almost simultaneously.

pity it was locked so soon, it was very interesting to read the comments made by minuteman. I'd have to disagree with Fyre tho, no disrespect but it didn't seem like a Bebop to me, too much foul language for one thing plus Bebop would have made sure to have at least 6 pics in the gallery before posting anything to the forum :) I would say that a large portion of the people posting to the gallery (myself included) can't draw, but does that really matter? The whole point of posting for me is to get advice on how to improve my techniques & to show off when I get something right ;) Ah well I can't stand around here all day, I have to go back to playing with my favourite toy (poser)

Well, I must say I do agree to an extend with the feller ( not his language). I used to go to rosity and look at the Bryce and Poser galleries. I grew tired of weeding out the gems out of the (in my humble personal opinion) garbage in the Poser one, so i stick with the Bryce gallery and poser hot20's.

Maybe if he had stated his case more eleqently, the thread would have stayed open and a mature discusion could have taken place :)

I don't think a mature discussion is possible. Every time this topic comes up (which is at least weekly), the same things are posted: Everything done with Poser is junk. Everything done in the galleries is junk. Real artists don't post on Poser. There is art on the gallery but there's too much junk to wade through. Postings should be limited. Voting should be limited. No one should be permitted to post unless they show their art degree. blah, blah, blah. It's a site with enthusiastic learners, talented artists, and jaded pros who are all mixed up in the same arena. You can definitely find art in the Poser galleries and not have it show up in the Hot 20. Takes work. You betcha. But, you know, it's kind of fun to watch someone start new and start growing a talent in front of our eyes. Some of us will never be artists, but others have the spark. Art snobbishness is a bad thing when it blocks out seeing someone develop their talent. Some people are born with ability, but it often takes time to see it flower. If we weren't such an immediate gratification society, we'd see the benefit of allowing growth to happen in its own stumbling, slow way.

If the post had said something like, "Gee, with all the software and talent around, why can't you guys do better?" that would have been okay. Not great, but okay. (And the last time we had a post like that, it devolved into a slug fest after about 40 posts, but it did have some good points on both sides before it hit the mudslinging.) A post that starts off by insulting everyone who uses Poser, in the Poser forum, is a post designed to start a fight so it was locked. BTW: You don't need to have a gallery here to have good advise. I know several people whose art opinions I respect that don't have galleries here. Yeah, trolls also don't have galleries because they know they'd get hit with some of the mdu they sling, but simply not having a gallery here does not automatically mean someone is a troll. Cheers!

Well, personally speaking whoever they are I think they have a point. I'm in the galleries most days, and while much of it is interesting I wouldn't call much of it "art" for the same reason that I don't call large lumps of Bronze with bits cut out of them "art", even if they are on public display. I'm no artist. I'm a hobbyist. To me this is the cultural equivalent of playing with dolls, mix and match, take a photo. I personally don't see that there is anything artistic about placing several products in a scene and hitting Ye Olde "render" button (so to speak) Just the same as if I wrote a story I wouldn't call myself an author. Or if I install a kitchen sink or a toilet, call myself a plumber. Which is not to say it's all crap, there is some stuff I call "art" in the galleries, but certainly not mine. I place stuff in the gallery more to "take part" than anything else. A sort of "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" deal, not because I'm under the impression that it's actually any good. I do pinups for the most part, and quick ones at that. I like them, your milage may vary :) later jb

Like praxis 22, I'm just a hobbyist, with no pretention to real Art. I understand it can be frustrating when you're looking for art to stumble upon some poor pic (such as mine for instance). But on the other hand, it is very intimidating for a button-presser like me to see some of the pics on the regular gallery : I always think "damn, I won't ever reach this mastery, so what's the point of posting ?" Why couldn't there be a gallery for us hobbyists to post to ? I mean, instead of polluting people with real artistic talent, I'd gladly agree to post on a hobbyist gallery, where the main goal would be to improve one's talent, not to reach the 20's. This way, people who would like to search for art would search the Poser gallery, while those seeking improvement and ideas would review, comment and post on the hobbyist gallery. Is this idea so stupid ? Compiler

I would vote for that idea, Compiler. I would be much happier in a hobbyist gallery. I'm not an artist either. I'm not quite a beginner but not really comfortable being in with the artists. I think that's a good idea. Maybe you could post it in the Community Ideas forum????

Dahhhh...I have not been able to find anything on this site to value minuteman's critique of poser art. I never listen to advice or critisism from someone I don't consider to be an equal or better. How can you be better than "0". I have been a working artist for 40 years and found poser to be a huge help in my work. I don't need $100 per hour models anymore..nor worry about the light. I also have learned a LOT from some here who consider themselve amatures. I have seen a lot of art I don't care for, but never even considered berating someones art just because it doesn't appeal to me.

I think some people here are failing to understand what art is. It is so much more than what you see in the end product. My son arranges leaves and stones in an awkward pattern, no, technical it is not. He scribbles with crayons, things he sees in his imagination. You mean to tell me this is not "art"? So, what is the difference here? If you can see that SOME thought went into the creation of something, and put aside the technical aspect, you will see that "like it or not, it is art". I don't care for Ruebens or Picasso, but I surely am not arrogant enough to say that it is "not art". Art is not what you see, but the process that has brought these images before you. Before you stick your nose in the air, realize that someone somewhere will think that you too are talentless. Mark

The beginner's gallery doesn't do it. Some of us are beyond the beginner stage but still aren't artists. The famous person is Theodore Sturgeon.And he actually said: "Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That's because 90% of everything is crud."

I choose to not label myself an artist, why is that considered a bad thing? I'm not talking about having a hobbyist's gallery where bad art is banished. I'm talking about a gallery for those of us who label ourselves hobbyists can go to post because we are NOT beginners and we are tired of being told we aren't worthy of posting with the real artists. We know and admit we aren't artists. We just want to be able to enjoy our hobby.

That is the problem, dialyn, if you put yourself into your work, you ARE an artist no matter what critics say. It has nothing to do with public opinion. Constructive criticism is good, saying something is "shite" is wrong. This seems to be a community in which "artists" and "hobbyists" stand as equals, let it be as it is. The world of art becomes quite disgusting when egos and arrogance takes over. Mark

Sigh. I'm not saying anyone told me I wasn't an artist. I said I am not an artist. I am not trolling for public opinion. I don't open up my gallery to comments. Normally I would just post my little bit and allow myself to be happily ignored. Because this is just a hobby for me. Not a vocation. Not a calling. Not a profession. A hobby. And when people complain there is no art in the galleries, I have to admit...I am not creating art. So provide a hobbyists gallery. Not a beginner's gallery because I'm not a beginner. A place for someone who admits they have artistic limitations and isn't embarressed to make that admission. I think I'm not being clear but I don't know how to explain it any better. Art is a matter of the heart. Your heart tells you that you are an artist. Great. Terrific. Wonderful. My heart tells me that I would be pretending to be what I am not if I made any such pronouncement. So I have a hobby. And my hobby is Poser. Hurting no one. So have a gallery for the amateur rank so that the professionals don't feel so put upon. That's all. End of me on this thread. If it isn't clear by now what I mean, it never will be and I don't want to waste anyone else's time with this train of thought.

although his delivery was inappropriate,I have to say(Again) that what I don't understand is that when anyone ever leaves a less than shining critique,there is always the.. "I think it is interesting whenever someone trashes art so much, that if you go check their gallery there is nothing there...." argument. What does that have to do with it? I've said it before: I don't know how to play a piano so does that mean I can not decide what piano music I like and what piano music I don't like? I've been a member here for years(From the PFO days) and you don't see any images in my gallery here.I post them elsewhere. So does that mean I am not eligible to critique the art here? If said person was to leave a gleaming critique,would you still check to see if they had a gallery? Are only good critique's allowed by folks without galleries? That's like saying"Since you don't have a gallery,you can know what you DO like,but not what you DON'T like. Silly argument IMHO. The thread was obviously flame bait,but the fact they had no gallery should have nothing to do with it. Tom

wow, gang...i make money off of art. mostly i do 4 color print jobs of menus, flyers...such fun. woohoo....and, the best part is: there is no work involved. most of the folks who buy my services want pretty much the same thing they used last year/10 years ago. of course, they all want it yesterday. then there are the website designs. okay, cool, lots of pet growers, here. "king fluffy of siamerica look prettier than he is....I COULD NOT!!! GET A DECENT SHOT OF HIM....HE'S SO HIGH STRUNG. then, there is the paralegal side of what i do.....i wasted hour upon hour upon re-inacting an accident scenario for a legal firm, who basically ripped me off....they took the stills and did not pay me. i'm a "hobbyist" too. even though, i earn money with my art work. because, when the day is said and done....i come home to my parrot, my computer, AND DO WHATEVER THE HELL FEELS GOOD. however, i am humble enough to NOT ask for my own "hobby" gallery. i am satisfied to occasionally get a glimpse of works by picky, or rio, archangel gabriel...etc. when i see such good works....i feel like a beginner. and, i look, and, look, and try my best to learn from what i see. and, yeah, i have a master's degree in fine and applied art. that and 50 cents will get me a phone call.

most phonebooths charge 75 now here :P (totally understand and agree with the rest)

If said person was to leave a gleaming critique,would you still check to see if they had a gallery? why, yes, i would. if you left a gleaming critique, i would want to see where you were coming from. if your gallery really sucked, i would feel a bit shamed.

I give up. The artists complain because non-artists contaminate their galleries. If the non-artists try to come up with a solution, then we aren't humble enough. The bottom line is that no one wants to come up with a solution. They just want to complain. Do whatever. I don't care anymore.

thanks, machine claw. work is work. it is more often than not, tedious. i think poser may be a hobby to more of us than we think. god forbid, that it ever really becomes work.

Why would you be shamed? Because the person leaving the critique doesn't posses your skill level yet,his critique is somehow less valid? You never see the complaint:"so and so left a good critique on my image and can you believe it,he doesn't even have a gallery". It makes no difference. what apeals to people is what appeals to people,regarless of their abilities. It's a silly argument,and one you always see within the first three posts,when someone leaves a bad critique and they have no gallery. Tom

my last render was about a week as number 1 on the hot 20. this made me really happy. especially, because one of my few friends here, wrote to me and said...just do a render for fun. i did....and was so amazed that it hit the 20. i had serious creative blockage with poser. the person who left the hurtful critique does have a gallery. it was not a critique for improvement. it merely said...oh, i thought this render was a joke. (no, i am no any legume. i posted something i was working on, and, thought that people liked it. it wasn't perfect. i wasn't going for that. i made a render in posr that i liked, and, shared it.) i am not sure why i felt shamed...but i disabled/deleted comments and rankings.

Some appear to define "art" as the technical ability to depict something. Some appear to define it simply as an act of expression. Some use the popularity of their work as a measure of its "quality." Some don't care about whether others like their work or not. Humans. What an interesting species.

Okay,(congrts BTW)..Lets say some of those who voted for you had no gallery. Would you be upset? That is exactly my point. My point is,...it only seems to matter if someone has a gallery if they leave a bad critique,but not if they leave a good one. Congrats again on the Hot 20 Tom

Aside from the really beatifull artwork which is to be seen in the gallery there is also the "lesser" (lack of a better word) artwork in there. There are two kinds of those: Art from people who are working to improve their images. They might not have all the skills down, but they are striving to better themself. The second category is harder to describe without kicking people in the shin. I think you know what i am talking about when I mention the voluptuous-zombie-chracters. When i see an image where you can see that the only dial which is used is the "large"-dial on the chest object I can but shake my head. I call that bay-watch art.

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