Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2372

Yep. Wish them the best. Paul

Hi VS, nice to "here" your voice again, you have been missed my friend. I think it's definately "watch this space" time, definately sounds interesting. btw If I had known you were hanging around over there I might have joined sooner, looks like a fun place.

Let's be upfront and say that DAZ aquired PoserPro. And now DAZ has posted a stance there that basically says anyone sharing or selling clothing using the Tailor is violating copyrights. Of course DAZ has failed to post anything concerning this problem here at Renderosity. I found it buried in a thread about Mike's Bodysuit. It's strange that DAZ waits several months, gets exclusive rights to selling Tailor, then hits us with a bombshell. This is one hell of a stain to put on a new relationship.

Ouch. I thought Russ and Mehndi were trying to swim against the tide of rampant commercialism? All that talk about building a store where the artists get a bigger cut and the site pretty much only keeps enough to cover its costs... And Daz couldn't just open forums, they had to BUY them?!?!? "This means more artists can now sell at DAZ, and all those who have had to be turned for lack of space in their store..." So this is going to be the B-class Daz cast-offs? Come on, like Daz couldn't just expand their store if they needed more room. I don't blame Russ and Mehndi doing "business deals", but it certainly leaves them with their feet in their mouths. Not that I haven't tasted some toes in my time myself, but I still can't help feeling very disappointed.

Just keep spinning it, huh, Ron? What you forget is that people can read. They can even think for themselves upon occasion. They don't need issues to be painted blacker than they are or white-washed either. They don't need yelping and accusations. They don't need stories of personal hardships and sacrifice. They need facts... clear unemotional statements of intention... well-reasoned approaches towards a solution which will be equitable for everyone... Most people won't form their opinions based upon a couple of resentful and heated posts. A vocal few might blow up like dry tinder, but thousands more will wait to see how the situation evolves before taking actions which will make them look or sound foolish later. Carolly

I guess I read my "readmes" differently. Cause what i reread, was what i always knew....cr2's for mil2 characters are not to be distributed in ANY form. so, why the hysteria, Ron?

Why should this bother anyone. Daz is the only store that you can return products bought, without a huge hazzel. At Ren. it's terrible to try and get your money back. But I do have to say 85% of the people selling there products go way out of there way to make you happy. But It makes me sick to look at my purchases and know that a bunch, aren't even on my program. Money just thrown down the spetic tank. I love the forum here and the gallerys.

Well, I'm certainly not a business-minded person, but I think I can recognize a good idea. DAZ "appropriated" PoserPros...they got good and dedicated people with good sense. And a ready-made forum. They could hired thier own, developed a forum, and integrated it to thier site, but this seems like a good-sense move to me. Corps do it all the time instead of starting from scratch. I don't think Russel and Mehndi "sold out". I think they made a decision that many in their shoes would have made. Otherwise, they run the risk of trying to fulfill thier dreams while faltering like other "Poser" sites have done. I think everone needs to give it a chance and stop mulling over how it's going to affect themselves. I have faith in the founders of PoserPros AND those who operate DAZ.

Well, here's the thing: Russ and Mehndi touted PoserPros as an alternative to the "evil" money-minded sites. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago that a few folks were attacking their non-profit attitude as being a mere facade (an attack in which I defended them, no less). They attracted the best and brightest of the Poser community with their utopian promises, and then when they had had them all within their grasp, they sold out lock, stock, and barrel. Daz "acquired" their site. They sold it straight off to the highest bidder, frankly. So much for non-profit, huh? Why in the hell would Daz want to buy a forum site in the first place? They could set up their own very easily and cheaply. Here's the reason: because their new forum wouldn't come already stocked with the most talented Poser creators. Let's get right down to it, here: Daz didn't buy the site, that would be stupid. A mere forum site has no value at all. They bought the people in it, the people that Russ and Mehndi attracted with promises of a site that never was nor will be. Daz bought Xena and Jim Burton and Jaager and all of the others. And apparently Russ and Mehndi were only too happy to sell them off. Yeah, congratulations. If Renderosity sells themselves off to, say, Curious Labs shall we throw a party for them, too? You know, Renderosity, the evil money-minded commercial site that they were supposed to be offering an alternative to? Does the word "hypocrisy" mean anything to you? "Credibility"? "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss..."

Yes, and Dr Legume is now gone. I'd actually checked out Legume's forum, and thought it was very interesting and informative. That may sound strange coming from me, but it's true. So what's up with that situation? Why has Legume left at the same time DAZ steps in?

they should ask for a refund in my case then :)

maybe Legume's gone over to work on the CL website

Well Ron, it could be a coincidence, but I have my doubts... I'm also wondering if this has anything to do with PJF's disappearance over there. No goodbye or announcement that I could find, and still no answer to my question about it in the General Discussions forum some time ago. Just a mod one day, and then poof gone the next.

What bloody difference does it make to all you nay-sayers who "owns" the place... it is still a GREAT source of information, a nice, calm place to just hang, with lots less arguments and petty squabbling than here. The people over there are still the same they were before DAZ stepped in, so get over it already.

X2K... Everyone knows I am a nobody, so I guess I risk nothing taking on the real people here. I have no talent, no seniority in R'City, and, it seems, I find myself trying to make a point in messages in an ever-failing way. I've only been around half a year. I certainly don't know the "ropes" as they say. But I have been around long enough to see sites close their doors. Usually due to money and lack of patronship. I'd hate to see that happen to Russell and Mehndi. So, why can't they have their cake and eat it too? Why can't they merge with DAZ, a great group of people, and still offer all they have already AND expand on it? Why does it seem like everyone is upset based on what effect the merger has had on them? Speak of selfishness!!! Makes me want to post a few expletives and get my message deleted.

Chuck, you are definitely a "somebody!"

Chuck: I don't think you get it. Mehndi and Russ have been selling every member on their non-commercialism, and now they're selling to the most commercial site out there. Not only that, they're currently supporting a few policies that DAZ has that are shady as fuck ( and not quite legal ). Paul

Thanks, Ron...(but I am a nobody) Thanks, Entropic...(no, apparently, I don't understand) But I am very upset...Ron knows me too well...he knows I am crying by now. I would start a new thread to explain what naivete (sp?) is, but this seems be the right place... I would start a new thread to explain what a nobody is, but this also seems to be the right place... Before I start, tho, I'd like to let anyone who reads anything I have to say that Russell and Mehndi have NOT reqeusted my remarks...indeed, they probably wish I would just shut up. I apparently know didly-squat...but still feel the need to run my mouth...perhaps that is my art...such as it is.

Let me first explain what a nobody is. A nobody is one who is not a seller. Has nothing for sale. A nobody is a person who has no freebies to give away. People without incredible art for people to ogle over are nobodies. There is a pecking order in R'City. By that, I mean if you have none of the above, then your remarks are diminished. People who have great art AND sell stuff AND offer freebies seem to have more sayso than the rest of us "nobodies". And so on. When people like SAMS3D, BH, IH, and so many others that I don't mean to impune by omitting speak, it means more. So, when I speak, I speak as a nobody. I also speak as a newbie...one who doesn't seem to know that the hell is going on. I'm not an artist. I just want to be. It's hell being surround by those who are. So, I don't understand all the egotistical feelings as much as I should. I guess 'cause I don't have anything to feel egotistical about.

SO many sites have started up with great intentions. So many sites have caved in due lack of money and patronage. I feel that Mehndi and Russell had the best of intentions, and still do. I respect their decision. It allows them to continue what they were doing. Here is the naive part, tho...'cause I may not understand business. People seem to think that their merger with DAZ has somehow clipped thier freedom. I can't believe they would agree to that, nor do I feel DAZ would demand that. Latest example I can recall is DAZ's response to the negativity on their Versa hair and how they acted. They listen. I can't see why they would force a "clamp" on their new forum...to restrict viewpoints. Can't see it at all. So, unless I am foolishly naive, just why is it that the forum and "secondary" DAZ marketplace that will ensue is a bad thing? Why is it that people think that the new forum will not be for free-thinkers? Why is it that people "comdemn" Russell and Mehndi for their choice? Why are people upset that they "sold out"? Is there any jealously involved? Is it all because of how it affects each individual complainer? GROW UP !

hummmm.... I sure wish that new folks like chuck could read the old c&d archives. i wish r'osity would reopen them for a bit, just to let folks see the various things at play....just for a couple days, or so.... i also wish i could fly. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!! and, giggle...i gotta bring this up....it is hard to trust anyone who would call me "Poopi" on purpose. that thread...yeah, right guys, go ahead and laugh...it was important in its day....shows volumes about honesty, integrety, and, maturity. there were sooo many good ones...the mehndi/neftis...braid copyright hassle...the blackhearted/steffyzz hassle. you would understand all this, if you could just go back and read where folks are really coming from. Pop...Pop....Poppi who is only a "somebody" when she has the virtual time.

I've been bought? Jeez why didn't anyone tell me ;P

Chuck, nothing personal, it's just that you are new here, and a lot of things have gone down that you missed. There's a whole history that you don't know, or have only heard second-hand. The short version is that Russ and Mehndi split off from this site, and it was a messy separation. They promised great things and constantly tore at R'osity for not providing them already. They drew some of the biggest names in the community to their site, then proceeded to pull the rug out from under everyone. It's like marrying a girl who swears she's a virgin then finding out she used to be a hooker. If they hadn't been so militant about providing an alternative to the more commercial sites, it would be different. But this is like someone who constantly preaches the virtues of Macs going to work at Microsoft. I'm not saying that they didn't have the best of intentions when they started, or that they're bad people. But in light of their histories and reputations, in light of all the things they've said since they started PoserPros, this is just plain and simple hypocrisy. "Why does it seem like everyone is upset based on what effect the merger has had on them? Speak of selfishness!!!" Nope, nothing of the sort, at least in my case. Doesn't really effect me in the least, except maybe for looking foolish when I defended them against charges of doing exactly what they ended up doing. Hell, I haven't been spending much time there lately anyway. But it is sad to see someone sell out their principles and credibility like that, especially folks that I had a great deal of respect for. Not the first time I've seen it happen, probably not the last, but it never gets any easier to watch. "So, unless I am foolishly naive, just why is it that the forum and "secondary" DAZ marketplace that will ensue is a bad thing?" Nope, not bad at all. But if you think for a minute that PoserPros isn't going to change drastically, THEN you're naive. There are some things that Daz is NOT going to tolerate, PJF and Legume probably being two of them. "Let me first explain what a nobody is. A nobody is one who is not a seller. Has nothing for sale. A nobody is a person who has no freebies to give away. People without incredible art for people to ogle over are nobodies. There is a pecking order in R'City. By that, I mean if you have none of the above, then your remarks are diminished. People who have great art AND sell stuff AND offer freebies seem to have more sayso than the rest of us "nobodies". And so on. When people like SAMS3D, BH, IH, and so many others that I don't mean to impune by omitting speak, it means more." Renderosity has its faults, but that's not one of them. I've been here a long time and let me tell you, I've had my say at times. I've never felt that my words were taken any less seriously than anyone else's. Of all the things they've been guilty of here at times, never that. And if you're a nobody, so am I. Oh, I just got a product into the Marketplace last month. Woopee. That doesn't mean much, trust me, and I was here a long time before that happened anyway. No freebies, no tutorials, no gallery, just me and my big mouth roving the forums. So before you go on attacking everyone with a negative comment about this, you might want to listen a bit more to what people are actually saying. Because as I can tell you from experience, there's often more to things than you know. Hell, I flamed Entropic over there a while ago when he accused R&M of being full of shit on the whole non-commercial thing. I trusted them and thought he was way off base, kind of like you do right now. Well, guess what...

So, umm... if their freedoms aren't be restricted or clipped.. um... Where did Legume go? I guess the mormon church must have abducted him. Paul

Btw, x2k; No need to eat crow, chief... I never held it against you for flaming back, and you've always been cool as fuck. My entire intention that night was to make the community aware of a situation that I felt they deserved to know about. As it turns out, a lot of things I said are turning out to be more and more true, but that's irrelevant, cause, I honestly don't think I would have listened to me, either. The fact that Mehndi has already sold out Legume tells me that I was completely right in my pronouncements. They have never been non-commercial, they have never supported their friends, and they have consistently acted only for their own good, despite their pronouncements to the contrary. Now, I know that this post is likely to bring down the flames, but I don't give a flying fuck. Paul

Since the TOS doesn't seem to protect outsiders, I'll respond to a few points. "There's a whole history that you don't know, or have only heard second-hand." Sorry x2000, but anything you know, is also still second hand knowledge. There are many sides to every story and the truth is always somewhere in between. "Russ and Mehndi touted PoserPros as an alternative to the "evil" money-minded sites. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago that a few folks were attacking their non-profit attitude as being a mere facade (an attack in which I defended them, no less)." I certainly don't consider sites that make money "evil" as you put it. Come on, even you know I've been working on code for a store for about 2 months now. And "non-profit" was never a goal, it was just the result. The result of us trying to create a store where we could give the merchants more. We knew our store would not have much traffic, so we decided to raise the merchant cuts through the roof. Now our store will have more traffic. We found another way to make more money for our merchants. A different way than we had planned, but it ends in the same result. "Where did Legume go?" Legume (and maybe another or two of our mods) decided that he wasn't compatible with DAZ and decided to leave us. We wish him well and hope he will continue to enlighten us about artists who walk a different path from the norm. "Mehndi and Russ have been selling every member on their non-commercialism" Again, it's public knowledge I've been working on store software for over two months now. That hardly qualifies us as "non-commercial". We were only non-commercial because I couldn't write code fast enough to start selling products! :) No flames here Paul. Just explainations. Wish it were the same coming from the other side. Have a great weekend! Russell

"Legume (and maybe another or two of our mods) decided that he wasn't compatible with DAZ and decided to leave us. " This sounds like bulshit. Sorry, russ, but the mormon tabernacle has nevre liked the doc or the doc's friends, so I'm gonna assume that you're lieing. Paul P.S.: Russ: Tell DAZ I have some free siteware running on my home pc if they're interested... What exactly did they buy?

"Since the TOS doesn't seem to protect outsiders, I'll respond to a few points." The TOS doesn't protect corporate entities russ, which is what you and Mehndi now are in association with DAZ. The fact is, I can bad mouth Microsoft or DAZ or PoserPros all day here without having made a single personal attack. I choose not to do so normally as it's counterproductive, but lately I can smell blood in the air and it's making me edgy... Paul P.S.: In case you haven't noticed, russ, you can also bad mouth rosity here, and no one will come after you for that, either. Although a few of us might take hat real personal and all.

Their are marriages and their are compromises. Sometimes it's the same. Yes, I am niave...I admit it. Somtimes compromises are the best/only way to continue to offer your dreams to people. I wish everyone the best of luck. Legume? Who knows why he does what he does? He is the most independent person/artist I know of here. Maybe he left because he was worried about what his continued "enrollement" would mean to the merger. Maybe he left becasue he thought he might be censored. Maybe he just stepped in to help out PoserPros in the beginning. Who really knows? Who could figure him out...LOL

This isn't about Legume. It's about PoserPros becoming a division of DAZ, despite numerous pronouncements to the contrary. So they're hypocrites...

I do see what you're saying Russ, I really do, but you've made a deal with the devil. One of the biggest selling points of PoserPros has been the freedom: no locked threads, no bannings, all of that. Maybe you can maintain that under Daz's thumb, but somehow I don't think so. I wonder how long it will be before you find yourself oppressed and feel the need to go start yet another site. And I wonder how many folks will follow you next time. A lot fewer, I'm betting. Daz isn't just another site with its own store. Daz IS a store, period. I think you'll find in the long run that that distinction is going to make a hell of a difference. It's not that I begrudge you the chance to make some money. Hell, I was the one in the "non-commercial" thread that urged you to re-think the idea of only keeping enough money to cover costs, to keep enough to actually make a profit for all of your hard work. But this... "Acquired". Not a parnership. They bought you. If PoserPros was your dream, they bought your dream. That's a hell of a thing to sell. I hope you got a good price for it. The hard truth is that if people had known in the beginning that you were going to end up selling out to Daz, there weren't be so many folks there in the first place. Of course, if there weren't so many folks there, Daz wouldn't have bought it, and... BTW: "Sorry x2000, but anything you know, is also still second hand knowledge. There are many sides to every story and the truth is always somewhere in between." Nope. I've been around longer than you think. Might not always have been so... visible, but I've been around. As far as anything that happened before I joined up, I'm not even thinking about that, because you're right. But I know what I've seen, and this move is totally inconsistent with everything I've heard you say. You may, as you've said, have done it for the best of reasons. I'm not saying you're money-grubbing scum or anything. Well, not really;) But I think you did the wrong thing, one that you'll regret. Your site, your life, your choice. But it still stinks. And that smell is going to follow you wherever you go. Like Paul said, PoserPros is now merely a division of Daz. So much for big ideas, eh? Welcome to the machine. "And did we tell you the name of the game, boy? We call it riding the gravy train!"

{{{{X2000: Ouch. I thought Russ and Mehndi were trying to swim against the tide of rampant commercialism? All that talk about building a store where the artists get a bigger cut and the site pretty much only keeps enough to cover its costs...}}}} Our goal was to manage to make back for the artists of DAZ the income they were losing when some of their products had to be removed from DAZ's main store, and due to overcrowding other equally fine products had to be rejected just for lack of space issues to be able to still take mainstream "bestsellers". Thus our idea of paying artists the highest percentage possible for the site to still stay afloat. We chose this idea as our initial path we could foresee due to the fact that as realists, we understood that a tiny backwater site with few members would not get alot of eyeballs to draw in large volume sales. Now we were presented an alternate Path to the same end goal by DAZ, and after LONG consideration and weighing of all factors with our staff working with us to weigh out the pros and cons, we chose this path, since it achieves the same end goal MUCH faster. {{{{X2000}}}}} And Daz couldn't just open forums, they had to BUY them?!?!? By buying ready to use forums, as you pointed out later, which I will address, DAZ has aquired a site that is already up and running successfully. This has shortened their path to achieving their end goal, just as their offer to us shortened our path of achieving our end goal. {{{{X2000}}}} So this is going to be the B-class Daz cast-offs? Come on, like Daz couldn't just expand their store if they needed more room. DAZ has chosen to not expand their existing store interface due to the fact that if they did so, soon it would face the same overcrowding problems that Renderosity's Marketplace does. Each artist would stand to lose in this way who brokers through DAZ. By keeping the main store site small, they can give maximum exposure to each artist who was present. It is a business decision that I support as a DAZ broker. However it DID create a need for a new secondary High Quality store as a place that DAZ brokers, and those wishing to broker with DAZ in the future, can turn to. {{{{X2000}}}} I still can't help feeling very disappointed. I hear you X2000. I do believe you feel disappointed, and in time, I hope we manage to regain your faith and trust. We know you put your trust in us, and that right now you feel it may have been misplaced. I am sensitive to that, and am available at any time to talk to you on it privately. You are a friend whom I value and respect and wish to keep as a friend. {{{{ChuckEvans: DAZ "appropriated" PoserPros...they got good and dedicated people with good sense. And a ready-made forum...I don't think Russel and Mehndi "sold out". I think they made a decision that many in their shoes would have made.}}}} You may have struck paydirt Chuck, whether you realize it or not. These people speak of the past, but they fail to tell you the total past. Only a week after we opened our doors to the public, Entropic wished to form a war site against Renderosity, and to persuade Russell and I to let HIM aquire PoserPros. Others here in this thread also have had their fingers deep into many pies. That DAZ in fact has chosen from amongst all the sites it could have chosen out there, PoserPros, must be a bitter glass of wine to drink for some. However, DAZ approached us. We did not "earn" this priveledge by climbing on the back of anyone else, and we built what we made, all of us on PoserPros, from the ground up. It was within our right, all of our right as the staff who built it, to choose to take DAZ's offer and we have. {{{{X2000: Well, here's the thing: Russ and Mehndi touted PoserPros as an alternative to the "evil" money-minded sites. They attracted the best and brightest of the Poser community with their utopian promises, and then when they had had them all within their grasp, they sold out lock, stock, and barrel. Daz "acquired" their site. They sold it straight off to the highest bidder, frankly. So much for non-profit, huh?}}}} We have NEVER touted PoserPros as the alternative to any evil. In fact, other than letting others speak openly and get things off their chests, and not suppressing free speech on our site, we hardly ever say a single word about Renderosity. I attracted the best and the brightest because I personally sent out several hundred emails to people, not even form letters, but personal messages and letters of invitation, one at a time. I took the time to do that. I attracted them because they know that I don't give a rat's ass what I say or who I say it too, or in front of, or the heat it draws on me, and I do not lie. I attracted them because when I said, "come see what I am doing, you will be refreshingly surprised", they believed me based on past experience with me personally. They came, they chose to stay on when they found what they had been looking for in our site. {{{{X2000: Here's the reason: because their new forum wouldn't come already stocked with the most talented Poser creators...They bought the people in it, the people that Russ and Mehndi attracted with promises of a site that never was nor will be. Daz bought Xena and Jim Burton and Jaager and all of the others. And apparently Russ and Mehndi were only too happy to sell them off.}}}} DAZ approached us all. Each of us has made our choice in this matter. Russell and I would have turned DAZ away cold if our staff had not gone with us in this with their full consent given to us. They built it with us. They also own it, and we plan to "split" the money we are paid (not very much btw) for the site with them all. Even those who are choosing to give support and consent for the sale, but ask to be let to go free and go their own way will get his or her share. {{{{RonKnights: Yes, and Dr Legume is now gone. I'd actually checked out Legume's forum, and thought it was very interesting and informative. That may sound strange coming from me, but it's true.}}}} RonKnights, shame on you. What would people think if they saw the LONG hateful messages you sent me about Legume, and PoserPros. You recall don't you Ron? Things about how you would NEVER give support for PoserPros due to the fact that I gave Legume a job as a moderator, and how you will always be our enemy and work to defeat my site and bring it down so long as Doc is there? Well, now dear, you no longer have to fret. Doc, of his own actions, will not make this transition with us. His reasons are his own and concern not one single soul outside the privacy of his relationship with Russell, myself, and his fellow staff. {{{{X2000: Well Ron, it could be a coincidence, but I have my doubts... I'm also wondering if this has anything to do with PJF's disappearance over there...Just a mod one day, and then poof gone the next.}}}} There was no poof about it. Peter made a choice to resign due to personal reasons quite some time ago. I frankly bowed up stubbornly and refused to accept his resignation for over a week. He had to work hard to convince me he was serious and actually did need to be let go out of mercy for him at that time. Peter is like our own personal King Arthur and we await the day he will return to us. We love him, he is one of us. {{{{Entropic: Mehndi and Russ have been selling every member on their non-commercialism, and now they're selling to the most commercial site out there. Not only that, they're currently supporting a few policies that DAZ has that are shady as fuck ( and not quite legal ).}}}} If you will go read the FAQ thread on our site, you will see that myself and my staff were amongst the VERY first to worry on the meaning of the FAQ, and question DAZ. We have the members wellbeing to see to, and will always be the first to mention to DAZ that things need better clarification when they do. We see our role as that of supporting both our community and its members, as well as DAZ. {{{{Poppi: and, giggle...i gotta bring this up....it is hard to trust anyone who would call me "Poopi" on purpose. that thread...yeah, right guys, go ahead and laugh...it was important in its day....shows volumes about honesty, integrety, and, maturity. there were sooo many good ones...the mehndi/neftis...braid copyright hassle...}}}} Poppi, truce is off now? You know, I never actually brought this up, since my method of dealing with any flame war, including that one, was to go silent, but that was a typo dear. That you so panicced over it though was something I did find a bit interesting at the time. And it was a good time for me since I needed strong motivation to get the Wood Elf done. You helped give me that. Your personality, your strength of character and tenanciousness is in his face :) Thank you for all of the inspiration you provided me. {{{{X2000: The short version is that Russ and Mehndi split off from this site, and it was a messy separation. They promised great things and constantly tore at R'osity for not providing them already.}}}} Naw, we did not get into messy seperations, we just left one day and took half the known universe of people who matter to us with us. Messy is not our style. It does happen to be the style of some of you folks in this thread for the most part, who then took it upon yourselves to even back then make things messy. {{{{Entropic: So, umm... if their freedoms aren't be restricted or clipped.. um... Where did Legume go? I guess the mormon church must have abducted him...The fact that Mehndi has already sold out Legume tells me that I was completely right in my pronouncements.}}}} Legume is my personal friend. Moreso than many of you are aware of. We are VERY close, and I consider him like the brother-soulmate my own brothers never were to me. We can talk about anything, and I always feel good, comfortable, and accepted in his presence. I thank Allah for bringing Legume into my life. Where he went, and why he chose to both give his consent and support to the sale, but will not make the transition with us, is his own business. Now, I invite all of you to stop clogging up Renderosity's forums with your worries, and stop breaking their TOS by posting your anxieties and anger and attacks, and to instead come over to PoserPros and make your posts to our faces as the old saying goes, where you know we always welcome open dialogue and it is not against our TOS to say what you will to our faces, nor will any of you risk being banned for doing so, as you do here.

Look Mehndi, I'm not besmirching you personally for your actions. Hell, I kind of admire the two-faced way you sold the site. Shows that you got balls if nothing else. But lets let the facts show. You pull this crap of selling your "close friends" down the river, then you use double speak and a manipulation of facts to try to make it appear like it was their fault. What you haven't learned from reading 1984 is that, in the real world, people get pissed when you try this on them. For instance: "We have NEVER touted PoserPros as the alternative to any evil. In fact, other than letting others speak openly and get things off their chests, and not suppressing free speech on our site, we hardly ever say a single word about Renderosity." Want me to post a few IM's from you in my gallery, Mehndi? I bet Renderosity wouldn't delete my them in the same fashion you did at PoserPros. But then, that's not censorship, is it? That's just russ and mehndi looking out for russ and mehndi after all. "RonKnights, shame on you. What would people think if they saw the LONG hateful messages you sent me about Legume, and PoserPros. You recall don't you Ron?" Well, Mehndi, this is always your classic threat of blackmail, isn't it? Same as the one you tried on me. Nice to know you're professional enough to try to blackmail those who oppose your actions. "Entropic wished to form a war site against Renderosity, and to persuade Russell and I to let HIM aquire PoserPros." Again, this is a load. I sought to create an acceptable alternative to renderosity and invited any third party sites who were interested to partner in the effort. If you're going to try to air my dirty laundry, don't do a half-ass job of it. I'll be glad to post all the correspondances and logs of those days. "Now, I invite all of you to stop clogging up Renderosity's forums with your worries, and stop breaking their TOS by posting your anxieties and anger and attacks, and to instead come over to PoserPros and make your posts to our faces as the old saying goes, where you know we always welcome open dialogue and it is not against our TOS to say what you will to our faces, nor will any of you risk being banned for doing so, as you do here." Ok, baby... you got it. But you really should know, that we're not clogging up these forums, there's plenty of room here. What you're really saying is, "I need more page hits, so please come argue at my site cause it's better for business." Paul P.S.: You want TOS violations? How about threatening ron knights?

ChuckEvans: DAZ "appropriated" PoserPros...they got good and dedicated people with good sense. And a ready-made forum...I don't think Russel and Mehndi "sold out". I think they made a decision that many in their shoes would have made.}}}} You may have struck paydirt Chuck, whether you realize it or not Mehndi...If you had so much sense, you never would have made the "Poopi" remark, right here...back in the old days. My business may be small, but damned if i need any of you. i am reputable. i am honorable. and, you damned well knew my little..."cl" reference to russel meant clown, not "clunt"....i really don't know if he is a "clunt", or not...i don't sleep with him. and, i am concerned, also, about the proposal for the guild...that i was so gung ho for, when you first proposed it. did you put it on a back burner? for now? or are we all gonna wake up one morning to find our creations are worthless because you haven't given them your stamp of approval? after your ever so kind extension of your olive branch to radart, destiny, and, myself...i tried to ignore what had gone before. however, this last bit is way over the top. when you were here, you moderated the copyright forum....you know the rules. you could have given some explanation YOURSELF, early on in the day. no...why???? because, you know in this new bit...Daz...has no legal leg to stand on. they failed to foresee new products...and, hon...if ya snooze ya lose....you can't then, just change the terms of the contract. daz was snoozin' while codetwister was working out his tailer. i did not buy it, 'cause i could FORESEE....some real grey areas of the law on it. Too bad the minds over at daz weren't that sharp...could have saved the whole community alot of anguish. Pop...Pop...Poppi Keep Good ;*)

and, to be fair to mehndi, and, russel...i went off to the keys for a number of weeks....i do not know what exactly transpired when they left renderosity. i do know that strong personalities sometimes clash....i hate clashing...i love the keys...go figger. ;*) on the bright side...my "cl" took me out for a very fresh seafood dinner, tonight. and, like...doncha dare call him a clunt...he's my CLOWN, dagnabbit!!!!

Mehndi, this quote is utter bullshit: "RonKnights, shame on you. What would people think if they saw the LONG hateful messages you sent me about Legume, and PoserPros. You recall don't you Ron? Things about how you would NEVER give support for PoserPros due to the fact that I gave Legume a job as a moderator, and how you will always be our enemy and work to defeat my site and bring it down so long as Doc is there? Well, now dear, you no longer have to fret. Doc, of his own actions, will not make this transition with us. His reasons are his own and concern not one single soul outside the privacy of his relationship with Russell, myself, and his fellow staff." I told you that I was disppointed and shocked that you'd take Legume on, that he represented a menace to any good online community, etc. That was based upon the way Legume presented himself here at Renderosity, and some things that had happened to me personally at the time we last clashed. The fact is that I've rarely even visted PoserPros. I did check out Legume's forum once, and found it interesting. I checked the forum recently, and didn't agree with the way he glorified one of the "Charles Manson Killers" as an artist. I said nothing about it. I saw an entirely different face of Legume on PoserPros. I saw a man who spoke intelligently, and yes, one I wouldn't always agree with. But he was also a man I could respect. Nothing has ever been done to put our past harsh feelings to rest. I've never been happy about that. But the pain dies with time. I've never harbored the anger and resentment to the point where I'd consider attacking Legume or PoserPros. You should know that based upon the infrequency of my visits. The only reason I visited PoserPros recently was because of a thread that led me there. So you see, the accuracy of your words is suspect. Mehndi I hope, for your sake, and DAZ's, that you learn quickly to moderate your public interactions. Ron

Chuck, I want you to read my words and listen to me very closely. Your value to this community is not the total sum of the pictures you draw, or the goodies you give away. Your value to this community is comprised of who you are, what you say to others, and how you present yourself. It is based on your own personal worth and feelings of self-worth. Chuck, I first reached out to you when you posted a timid message about being a newbie. I encouraged you to speak up, show yourself, and continue to stay in touch. I know what it was like to come into this community, a total newbie, and feel so insignficant, stupid, etc. I remembered that most everyone here was very helpful and civil, even when I continued to be bewildered by even the simplest things. Many people still speak to me even though I've caught myself into some raging controversies. I've resolved that if I do nothing else, I want to reach out once and awhile and say "Hi, welcome to Renderosity." That's "giving back" in a small, but entirely significant way. Now repeat after me: "I am somebody, and I'm proud of it." Ron

"Naw, we did not get into messy seperations, we just left one day and took half the known universe of people who matter to us with us. Messy is not our style. It does happen to be the style of some of you folks in this thread for the most part, who then took it upon yourselves to even back then make things messy." Funny, I remember it differently. Could it be that Pink World of yours is coming down again? Maybe a little closer to home this time?

"Now, I invite all of you to stop clogging up Renderosity's forums with your worries, and stop breaking their TOS by posting your anxieties and anger and attacks, and to instead come over to PoserPros and make your posts to our faces as the old saying goes, where you know we always welcome open dialogue and it is not against our TOS to say what you will to our faces, nor will any of you risk being banned for doing so, as you do here." I appreciate your concern for Renderosity fragile little forums, but no thanks. I expressed my reservations at PoserPros and got a nice corporate little form letter of a response: "We understand your concerns and feelings on the matter. Thanks for sharing them with us." Well, that was a free and open exchange of ideas, huh? As someone who's never been banned to someone who has, thanks for your concern, but I think I'll manage just fine. I've said my piece anyway. Not much left to say anyway, is there? Come to think of it, there is: I have a big mouth. You know it, I know it. I've never been shy about speaking my mind. But I assure you there's a lot of other folks out there who aren't so open but who share my feelings. You've lost any credibilty you ever had. I hope whatever you make from this is worth that loss.

X2K: Well, in Mehndi's defense, she has managed to get me to post over at PP with her invitation... Not sure that either she, russel, or DAZ will appreciate me "openly expressing my concern", though. I have a big mouth, too, and very few reservations about what others think. Paul

snicker I love watching forum history er... evolve. Artisticaly even.