Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=1011598&Reply=1016068#

"I din't say it was againt the rules to "promote yourself" I just think it's in bad taste to campaign in a contest like this. " So far, I've seen no evidence to suggest that R'osity does anything to discourage bad taste, as long as it's management-approved, product-driven bad taste.

No Mosca, it means that the rules were changed after LAST YEAR'S voting irregularities, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH VOTING THIS YEAR. Who was in what position THIS YEAR had nothing to do with the removal of the poll. How many times must it be repeated Mosca? A mistake was made in putting the poll up in the first place, and as soon as it was spotted the situation was rectified. Notice that I didn't use a phrase like 'put right', because it's not 'right' until we can get past the fighting and come up with a solution. So instead of playing semantics, how about helping come up with one?

Okay, Sir Legume, so you ask me why it is WRONG, the way you would plan on winning? I actually wasn't implying clone voting because if that was the case I would think the site folks would catch on and stop it immediatly. I also stated that if the way you recieve votes is not illegal, it SHOULD be, but I never said it WAS. If it WAS illegal, then I guess a lot of political folks and such would be in big trouble too. See, I find this place to be an art site, not a political arena. I think that what you, Sir Legume, and this Mr. Mosca are doing is making all this into some kind of political statement, maybe even some kind of popularity POINT, or to set some kind of "example", and at the expense of what and whom? All the other artists and whatever credibilities this place has to lose with this contest and the prizes included, that is what and whom. See, the top twenty stuff, (I have been following this stuff adamantly), is one thing, it can be just so much back patting and glamor voting and yes, a lot of times a cool way of aknowledging your friends, being acknowledged, and also merchant market criterias being in the highlight; as well as some really cool artists that do pop up to really deserve all the ooh aah millenium comments galore. But the top twenty isn't about real prizes and it doesn't represent the entire site when it comes to artistic merit and artistic value and artistic substance that is presented here by the many hundreds, maybe thousands of artists that reside here day after day, sharing, learning, selling and even just being beautiful. As much as I really DO find your artwork incredibly original, stylish and especially contravesial Sir Legume, I honestly believe your many friends vote for you on "personality" and "popularity" and "friendship" and on a "wit" basis and although it is wonderful to have many friends both online and off and to be liked by tons and tons of people, I ask if THIS is the right way to win a contest that is about "ART", not about any "person". If this place was to hold a big contsest on "Forum Man of the Year" I would be VERY unimpressed if you did not win that one hands down Sir Legume, you would deserve this honor without a doubt, but THIS is not about you and what a wonderful person you are and how witty you may be and how loud you can get Mosca or anyone else to scream on your behalf, or how many laughs you can gather up at the expense of whatever lunacy may be happening here that you can mock about this place, it is about...ART. Art that has something to say about this site, represents this place, and not just as a cocky reminder of the absurdeties here or to make an editorial jackass crusade out of Renderosity, but to make this place have a symbol, an expression, a portait so to speak of what this place is "supposed" to be about for ALL the people here, members that come here, work here, share here, sell here, learn here. Your art speaks great things Sir Legume. It is a laugh a minute. You have made me laugh with your art more than anyone here many, many times. But I also know that many times the laughs you portray are subtly and even sometimes blatantly directed at this place and the people here. I question if that is really what all the folks here would want to have represent this place above all the other artists that also put very much "emotion" into their work, only not quite as determined to transmit a message with each rendering about whatever is absurd here, but what may actually bring "hope" and "crediblity" to this place for many, even if it may be a hard task ahead at times. See, it is one thing to make funnies out of a place, I think that is very cool and I enjoy the humor too. It can make folks see how silly they are and maybe even fix the problems; but I don't know if this place wants to really be the most laughed about art site on the net, there is more here than just whatever funny disinclinations an artist with your amazing style can find and point out time and time again Sir Legume. Please do not think I am making fun of you Legume. Fact is I admire your wit and art. But I think that your brand of winning is more about "statement" and a "personality contest" and I don't really think that is what this site had in mind when they ran this contest. I may be entirely wrong here and don't claim to speak for anyone, or this site, I just speak for myself, and what I have seen and continue to "see". My opinion is mine just as Mr. Mosca's is his and so on. I should be allowed to post my opinion whether I am an artist or not and whether I am new or old here. I know what I see and feel and that should account for something. I also wonder if all those folks you have come here to vote for you ever really come back to Renderosity for anything else but that, to vote for you. See, that is another problem I have. All those folks come here to vote, but they don't really know what this place is about, they can't because they only spend enough time here to "vote for you". I wonder if they even look at the art here or much of anything at all? Would all those many, many votes your nourish really, truly be a great representation of all the folks that really do spend quality time here? Happy Boxing Day

OK Legume I'm only answering this because your so passionate about this but I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you about this. So there is no rule against it. So what. There is such a thing as ethics and standards. You basicly tried to hijack the AOY just like you and Mr Godini did to the AOM. I saw it and many other people saw it. Thats why they changed the way the AOM is picked. I didn't say anything then because it is really no big deal to me. Now you try the same thing for the AOY and they shut it down. Instead of just taking your 15 minutes of fame you get greedy and go for the whole day. Then you and a few of your followers hop on the forums and bitch to high heaven on how you were cheated out of the chance to hijack the AOY. That has nothing whatsoever to do with art or being an artist. Most people wouldn't say anything because you have such a following. Hey I have been living for the last 7 years with multiple sclerosis so I think I can wheather any gallery trolls and flames that come my way for in the big picture I see them for what they are... nothing. So go ahead and rant all you want. your just proving my point......you tried to HIJACK the AOY...... and got caught as your buddy said live with it against the rules or not it was a low budget move in my opinion.

Just got to dive in here... The AOY poll wasn't shut down because Legume was in the top few. It would have been removed even if Legume wasn't in it.

Lon Chaney, I do not believe you have proven that Legume has been unethical or tried to hijack anything, so you really shouldn't be discussing it as if it were a fact. I am not sure what "low budget move" means. I still don't see why asking for votes is wrong. I understand that you think it is wrong and unethical, but I don't really understand why you think that. I don't think it is right to accuse Legume of being unethical without a real reason besides "I don't like what he did". This is not a fair way to debate. Also, it should be pointed out that you are contradicting what the admins say when you claim that "Now you try the same thing for the AOY and they shut it down." The admins are saying that they took the AOY poll down because it was not meant to be up; not because of anything Legume or his friends did.

This is my opinion only on the subject. It has nothing to do with the mod or admins on this site. If they say that's why then I have to believe that's why they shut it down. That said I still stand by what I said. In my opion it was and is wrong and unethical to solicit votes for a contest of this type. If he was running for office sure but soliciting vote for an art contest? come on souldn't the art be considered some place or is it all who has the most friends online and can promote themselves the best. When I was nominated for AOM I voted not for myself but for feri. Why you ask? because he is hands down a better artist than me. Low budget = doing somthing that may not be against the law or rules. But ethicly is wrong. Like getting all your freinds to "pad" the vote. not against the rule but moraly wrong. If you can't see that I waisting my time

But it's not art! It's just flippin' tomato soup cans! ...... (Oops, sorry, Legume, wrong guy.) ;)

Lon Chaney, I can't see it because you haven't explained it. You keep saying that you think it is unethical to ask for your friends to vote, but you have explained why you believe that. Repeating "in my opinion it is unethical" doesn't really explain anything. Here, I'll go first: In my opinion, asking your friends to vote for you is not unethical. The reasons for this are: 1) everyone can ask their friends to vote, so it's not an unfair advantage. Also, one can say "no, I won't vote for you". 2) judging what art is "best" is very subjective an personal. I don't think it is practical to vote who is the "best artist". 3) I think the AOY should be someone that the majority of people know, they should be someone who has a big presence and impact on the site. Therefore, I do not agree with people when they claim that asking people to vote for you is unethical, or "stuffing the ballot box".

kbennett--I've seen a number of suggestions from members about how the AOY selection process could, in fact, be put right. My own thinking is that closing the voting to new members who join after the voting is announced would help, as would culling the votes for clones--something I know you guys can already do. I haven't seen anyone in management propose any solution other than having admin staff select the winner. Nothing has been rectified at this point, if you ask me (and you did)--in fact, no one at the admin level has addressed this issue to date, except to say "sorry." Sorry is fine, but it doesn't solve the problem. And you're still avoiding the question about AOM voting--why can members be trusted to select AOM and not AOY? Here are a few more interesting questions: Why did it take management a year to address the AOY issue, if it's such a big deal? How does management plan to realistically address the appearance of unfairness--what equitable solution can management offer at this point? If/when management chooses a "winner", what will the selection criteria be? I'm pretty sure a you can't run a promotional contest without clearly posting the rules ahead of time; AOY has been running for a year now, essentially--AOY is the culmination of the whole AOM process (AOM nominess are semi-finalists, AOMs are finalists, you get the picture). How will management reassure the customer-members that future contests will be administered fairly, and that member input will be welcome? Why was the AOM nominating process changed just days after Legume won? You guys have gone out of your way to create the appearance of unfairness here; even if management's official explanation is true, it still means you've rewritten the contest rules 11 months after the contest began. In my view, the "mistake" has not been "rectified" by yanking the poll--it's been compounded. You guys clearly still don't get it.

You are wasting your time, because none of this is about ethics, principles, or what is right. It isn't because of the moderators or administrators. It isn't because of some mystery conspiracy to rig the vote by the powers that be(the point of which is lost on me--how it would profit them has never been explained and I don't care anymore). It is about ego. And being the star of the farce. Applaud. Let the star take his bows in the spotlight...which was the point all along. Let the costars take their bows. Applaud, applaud. Throw roses for the good job of attention getting. Enjoy the fact that we have all been manipulated. We all had our roles to play, and we did it well. We have become alienated from each other, allowed ourselves to get provoked into personal attacks, found ourselves on the defensive for no good reason. Volpone and his servant would be delighted at how skillfully this was all done. And I concede...it was well done. My hands are red from clapping in my appreciation for the accomplishment. But isn't it time to close the show and move on? Even farces stop being funny if they go on too long. There is no real point to it. And, at the end, no one wins. I know Legume is well liked here. His popularity is not under dispute. I don't think there is anything unethical about encouraging your friends to vote...would you vote for your enemy? Is he the greatest artist of all times? Well, I get the impression he thinks he is the best of anyone here. He may be. I'm no artist. But then I wouldn't buy a $5,000 toilet from an art gallery when I can buy one for $75 in a hardware store. One is art. One is a porcelein fixture. The fact that they come from the same manufacturer seems to make no difference. I am no critic and never will be a judge of art, and have no claims to such. I wouldn't vote for Legume because his art doesn't appeal to me...not because I can evaluate his technique. So I probably shouldn't be voting because of my ignorance. Oh well....works out for the best in my case. At heart I think this whole charade of a debate has nothing really to do with making sure the best artist wins the award. But I imagine the play is going to go on...so I am getting back in the audience to watch scene #10002. I don't suppose we could finish this in time for the new year, could we?

That's the best thing you could do Legume. I have more ethics and higher standards that you'll ever know. For one I would never have even thought of doing what you did. And yes you should sit humbly by while the public that cares about and wants to view that candidates make thier own decisions. Coming from a family with a history in law inforcment I know all about standards and ethics. I have nothing against promoting yourself or your art. What I'm against is flooding the voting with such a large number that it becomes painfully plain to see. Hell you might have won on your artwork alone but we'll never know now. You keep talking about your gallery well why don't you let the images speak for themselves and let the chips fall where they may. Please don't respond any more. This whole issue should die. You know my opinion and I know yours. I doubt we'll either see eye to eye on this.

"What I'm against is flooding the voting with such a large number that it becomes painfully plain to see. Hell you might have won on your artwork alone but we'll never know now. You keep talking about your gallery well why don't you let the images speak for themselves and let the chips fall where they may." Really, who does he think he is, George Bush?

"At heart I think this whole charade of a debate has nothing really to do with making sure the best artist wins the award. " No argument here--what it's about, for me, is fairness. I could care less who wins--what pisses me off is the utter disregard management has demonstrated again and again for the concerns of the customer-members, you and me. Those of us who buy from the MP support the site with OUR money--WE pay for the bandwidth, WE provide the "free" galleries, WE pay for the contest prizes, WE pay the salaries. Sure, I think Legume's a hoot--but I also think ToxicAngel would make a fine AOY. I just think the timing here is extremely suspect, and I think management owes us more than "oops--sorry!" by way of explanation.

And they're good ideas too Mosca, but impossible (I think) to implement in time to fix things for this year. "Sorry is fine, but it doesn't solve the problem." Agreed, but doesn't it count for something? As for your other ponts, they're well taken. I've already started a discussion about how we ought to get our acts together for next year, but I'm only one mod. The final decisions will be taken by the admin team. Please let me state one last time, the change to this year's AOY voting was NOT made 11 months after it started. It changed LAST YEAR. I'm not here to fight with you Mosca, some of the things you say are very valid points and need to be answered but you seem to have this knack of saying them in a way that makes it too confrontational to deal with easily y'know?

Ok I do apologize for saying you cheated but I still think it's ethicly wrong to PAD, you like that word better, the vote. I don't care how much you want the prize. You don't have a handle on anything about me. you don't know me from jack. You on the other hand have diplayed to the world your brand of ethics. So jump down off your high horse there Legume. Nothing you say is going to convince me what you did was right. The more you and your big crowd 3 or 4 rant and rave about this the mnore convinced I become of how wrong it was

"That's the best thing you could do Legume. I have more ethics and higher standards that you'll ever know. For one I would never have even thought of doing what you did." This is circular reasoning. You still haven't explained why you believe asking for votes is unethical. So you can't claim that you are more ethical because you would not have done what Legume did. "And yes you should sit humbly by while the public that cares about and wants to view that candidates make thier own decisions." Why? "Coming from a family with a history in law inforcment I know all about standards and ethics. " Now, that's just silly. There is nothing about coming from a family with a history and law enforcement that proves you know all about standards and ethics. Do you really believe it is ethical to accuse someone of something (stuffing the ballot, being unethical) without evidence or at least clear reasoning to back up your accusations? I sure don't. "I have nothing against promoting yourself or your art. What I'm against is flooding the voting with such a large number that it becomes painfully plain to see." So what are you saying, it's OK to promote himself a little bit? I don't think anything was "painfully plain to see". "Hell you might have won on your artwork alone but we'll never know now. You keep talking about your gallery well why don't you let the images speak for themselves and let the chips fall where they may." Because he has a right to promote himself? Because last year the prize was really worth winning? "Please don't respond any more." I really don't think it isn't very ethical to try to just get your opponent to shut up. You could always just not respond anymore. You are the only person whose actions you should try to control. "This whole issue should die. You know my opinion and I know yours. I doubt we'll either see eye to eye on this." Yes, we know your opinion but we still don't know why you have it. Maybe you don't know why you have it either; perhaps you haven't thought it through. I can't really think of a reason that it would be bad for an artist to promote themselves or their art.

"Please let me state one last time, the change to this year's AOY voting was NOT made 11 months after it started. It changed LAST YEAR." Were the rule changes posted? I sure don't remember seeing them, if they were. You've got to post the rules, guys. "I'm not here to fight with you Mosca, some of the things you say are very valid points and need to be answered but you seem to have this knack of saying them in a way that makes it too confrontational to deal with easily y'know? " Well, that's kind of the idea, right? If I made it easy we wouldn't even have gotten this far, would we? We'd have all accepted the "oops--sorry!" and that would've been that (can you tell I've been around a while?). And I'm not here to fight with you, either--I appreciate the fact that you've been brave enough to enter this thread, when no one at the admin level appears to be willing to engage this thing head on--tell them from me that they're just making themselves look worse by hiding under their desks.

Talking to a wall here, So long, have fun, you all beat this to death if you want I'm unchecking the email notice. This thread is dead to me. I've explaind my position you've explained you'rs. never will the two meet. You'll never convince me that soliciting vote was right. And I'll never convince you padding the vote was wrong by by

"Were the rule changes posted?" I believe so, yes. But I wasn't a mod then, so I can't give you a definitive answer. And I guess there hasn't been much admin response to these threads so far 'cos it's Christmas. Only sad, addicted gits like you'n'me (erm, and 1,470 others) are hanging out in front of their PC's today.

Doc, Lon, can we back off from getting too personal please? Since I'm participating in this thread it'd be wrong of me to get official on you guys, but please would you both ease up a little? Thanks.

Lon Chaney, my point was that you haven't explained you position. I asked for explanation. I don't think that this is unreasonable. My point was you haven't proven that the vote was padded. My point is that it's very unethical to accuse someone of wrong doing, and condemn them for it, based soley on your opinion and the way you feel about things.

Christ - don't tell me you louts spent all of Christmas holiday on this... (I gotta admit, though, it was the first tag-team shillfest I'd seen in a real long time :) ) Incidentally my dear Lon, there is (at least) one (sorta-former) SubGenius who didn't vote the Legume ticket, but I wouldn't be called Spark The muthafriggin Heretic if'n I did vote for 'im. Also, alt.slack is a HUGE friggin' artist community. They practically put Photoshop on the map back when everybody in the art biz was saying "Adobe? They make mud bricks n' shit, right?" I for one would be damned proud to have any of 'em vote for my works, mostly because their works are a treat for the eyes (and packed into damned near every Linux distro alive... right down to the Flaming Bob screensaver.) In any event! For the record, it is not cheating to ask for support, else every politician since Xerxes would be guilty of "cheating." Lon: Go To Bed. Get some sleep. Wake up and cuddle your missus/partner/significant other. Play with the kids or the dog/cat/etc if you have 'em. Take a long walk outside. Then, then come back, but do not, under any circumstance, post yet another metric ton of assertion and bile. This year's AOY is blown. Dead. Beyond Repair. However, it is not too early to work on a system that may have a snowball's chance in Hell of working next year. Now, if'n y'all will excuse me, I've got a missus that requires my presence in the driveway with a snow shovel. PS: Nice additions, Leg... but dude - where was all that T&A back in August ;) ( heh -j/k, 'mano. As you were.) /P

Heh, Legume. It's funny, my dad was a cop. So I had to laugh at the "family with a history in law enforcement" thing. I still remember my mom explaining her "Pigs Is Beautiful" sweatshirt to me. Heck, some of the stories my dad told didn't exactly illustrate the fairness and upright ethics of cops. And even if being in law enforcement guaranteed one was ethical, exactly what does that have to do with the family member of said law enforcement official? What, it rubs off in the laundry?

Doc, Lon, can we back off from getting too personal please? Since I'm participating in this thread it'd be wrong of me to get official on you guys, but please would you both ease up a little? Yes I'm thu here. No hard feeling on my part. I stated my feeling him his. any more would be pointless. Now please don't get offical on us :)

Doc, Lon, can we back off from getting too personal please? Since I'm participating in this thread it'd be wrong of me to get official on you guys, but please would you both ease up a little? Yes I'm thu here. No hard feeling on my part. I stated my feelings him his. any more would be pointless. Now please don't get offical on us :)

And even if being in law enforcement guaranteed one was ethical, exactly what does that have to do with the family member of said law enforcement official? What, it rubs off in the laundry? why yes it does or should. if parents don't intsill ethical behaveyor in thier childeren who will? I think it has a great deal of how you turn out in life who your pernts are and how they raise you. I've known a lot of cops and most of them have a pretty high standard of ethics. Seems kind of relivent to me.

huh? If you believe that,then you of all people should beleive that when the same thing is done repeatedly, that action must be changed. Example:Kid takes your car without your permission- crashes it and says "im sorry" and nothing is done about it- then what happens? the kid takes another car crashes it says I'm sorry, rinse repeat. 5 major contests within approx a year, a year, and all 5 of them have had controversy around them. And those are the ones i remember. There may be more. The first one involved a tie and the members were not allowed to vote on the tie breaker. there was no information posted on what would be done to break the tie until AFTER the admins picked who they wanted,. Any contest usually has a predefined framework for dealing with these situations ( logo contest) The 2nd one allegedly involved vote fixing by a member. (AOY last year) The third involved an admin winning a contest where software was involved (AFAICR the admin refused the prize)- People who are holding the contest are not elegable to enter them The 4th Involved some one winning in the photography forum,. and they tried to substitute a lesser value prize. And now this one. Andf you are claiming a higher ethic?

hey Legume where did I mention your mane in there. I didn't mention any names untill you posted his "I admit openly that I promote myself. My big sin is that there are people who enjoy my work outside the boundaries of Renderosity. The Poser newsgroup for, example. I posted there saying that I was in the running for Artist of the Year, and I'd appeciate it if those who like my stuff would consider voting for me." Your the one that came in and admited it. Call it what you want. I don't care. I still think it shouldn't be done.

Do you really believe that having a family member in law enforcement guarantees that one is ethical? Really? Does that mean you are willing to take my word for it that what Legume did was not unethical? After all, my dad was a cop. Sorry, gotta disagree with you... having a family history of law enforcement has absolutely no bearing on whether or not an individual is ethical, for a myriad of reasons. You can only judge an individual by their actions, not what their family members happen to do for a living. And I gotta say, I really don't think it's ethical to accuse someone of wrongdoing without clearly explaining exactly is wrong. Saying "it's painfully plain to see" doesn't cut it. Saying "I wouldn't do it" doesn't cut it. Saying "I think it is bad" doesn't cut. We get that you think an artist promoting himself is a bad thing. But you still havent said why, beyond some sort of claim of "unfair advantage", and I've already explained why I don't think that argument is valid. I gave clear reasons (well, I think they were clear and no one has asked me to explain them) why I think an artist promoting himself is OK. Can't you do the courtesy of returning the favor? Wouldn't that be an ethical thing to do?

Lon Chaney, Why Shouldn't "It" Be Done? We get that that's what you think. But why?

Hey I don't run the contest. He admited going outside renderostity to drum up support. And I say it shouldn't be done. You tell me what sounds more ethical

As long as the support he drummed up were legitmate members who did not "spontaniously clone" themselves then yep- it's ok

because it is unfair, has nothing to do with art, and basicly turns an art contest popularity contest. If my daugher colored a picture and then got everyone in her school to register and vote on it. Say that picture won a contest. Would that be right and ethical? not to me it wouldn't

Lon, I don't know how to make my question any clearer: Why is it not OK to go outside of Renderosity to drum up support? Why is that bad?

"I didn't know you were a SubGenius!" Haven't posted to a.s. in eons, but once you go Bob, you never go back (at least that's what it says on my mattress tag.) "Of course you realize that by admitting that, people are going to say you're one of my mindless pawns." Aww, shit. This means I would have to change my vote and stuff, huh? (I voted T.A. - Err, "Toxic Angel", you pervs.) Lon sez: "And I say it shouldn't be done." Okay, I'll bite: Why? (err, weren't you supposed to be out cuddling or soemthing?) /P

Sorry, Lon, missed your response. Unfair? You still haven't explained what is unfair about it. Nothing to do with art? Disagree. Don't think you can prove that the people who voted for Legume are not interested in art. Turns art contest into a popularity contest: There, you might have a point. Myself, I think it is OK if AOY is a popularity contest. You think that it's not OK. You need to explain why. What to do you think the AOY should be? Your example of your daughter... yes, I believe that would be ethical. I don't think she would succeed, but I wouldn't stop her from trying. Maybe we would wind up with a bunch of fresh new members. That would be cool.

Ah, I see why. Problem is, that's all subjective... but, err, so is judging art in general. Popular support is popular support... And err, yeah - it is a popularity contest; If Legume's work sucked, it wouldn't matter how much support he tried to drum up - it would still suck and no one would vote for it. /P

I should probably mention that one difference between the analogy of Lon's daughter analogy and this situation is that Legume, of course, is a member of long standing.

I know rosity members visit other sites. I do myself. I still stand by what I said. I don't think soliciting votes whether it be here or offsite is right. Let the images speak for themselves. if your art is top notch you get the reconition you deserve. Like I said I have nothing againt Legume or his art. I've already said what I'm againt no need repeating it.

I should probably mention that one difference between the analogy of Lon's daughter analogy and this situation is that Legume, of course, is a member of long standing. yes he is but were all the votes for him members in long standing ? I don't know and neither do you but looks kind of suspicious when the numbers make such a drastic change

Hey Lon,
The definition of "Cheating" seems to be the problem here. To actually "Cheat" you would have to break the rules. There are no rules against soliciting votes. All Legume ever did was inform people that he was up for AOY and that if anyone thought him worthy, would they come and vote. Legume only did what other nominees did. Is it wrong to inform people that the AOY contest was going on ? Of course it isn't. Is it wrong to ask people to vote for you ? If it didn't involve prizes, then maybe it would be a bit wrong, but since it did involve very significant prizes then, no, it isn't wrong. Monitary gains tend to change things !

What is VERY wrong is to name call. You have outright called Legume a cheater and that, Lon, is WRONG !

BadCo

Lon, I didn't see any numbers make a drastic change, so I can't say that I've seen anything suspicious.

Poser newsgroup is my home and i am proud to have such a good friends from there.. it a community with friendly ppl even we have flame wars sometimes ( they fresh the air )most of the users are also members here at rosity.. What is great in there? surely if you want to get better need advice in this or that its the place when you get your answers.. We all have our opinions considering who to vote or not. Yes, Legume did a promotion at the newsgroup too, not sure how many voted for him but without a notice i would have missed the whole voting.. what i saying we all have our opinions in way or another.. My vote he didnt get ( well who cares )but only to show you we are not God Legumes pilgrims..

If it didn't involve prizes, then maybe it would be a bit wrong, but since it did involve very significant prizes then, no, it isn't wrong. Monitary gains tend to change things ! Besides being a moot point. They have said the rules changed last year. I keep hering you all talk about the rule for this. I haven't seen them and can't find them so please post them up. ok ok he didn't cheat I'm sorry. Still never convince me what he did was right. Against the rules or not. It ruins the whole spirit of the contest. this is like quicksand I can't get away

When in quicksand, don't struggle. Lay back, relax, and let yourself float. It is a legitimate difference of opinion...ethics is not a subject any two people are likely to agree on 100%. It is possible that something that is against your principles to do is not at all against someone else's principles. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it wrong. Just means you have a different set of values. Relax. Float. This too will pass.

No one in management has yet come forward with any accusations about cheating in this year's contest. What they're saying is that there was cheating last year, that they changed the rules last year, but then they forgot to tell anyone--including themselves. The official explanation is that this is just a wacky, could-happen-to-anyone SNAFU, and if only there was a way to eliminate cheating from the voting process (which is held to an entirely different standard than the AOM voting process, even though they're part of the same contest), then everything would be fine and members could vote again. But that won't happen till after this year's AOY is chosen by the mods and admins (oops! Sorry!). Next year, when all of the AOMs will have been nominated by management (and all of the loose cannons weeded out, presumably--the Legume Rule having been invoked), the situation will be resolved. THAT's the official explanation so far. Have I got it about right, admins? Hellooooo......?

Ok Legume Lets put this to rest. SORRY I said you cheated. I still believe there shouldn't be any solicting. It was posted here for a year that the AOY would be at the end of the year. Anybody interested should have known about the AOY. but as you others say you broke no rules. So be it. I wish you all the luck in the world in your quest for AOY. And may you get to signogragh whethere you win or not.

I'm a member of the Poser newsgroup (alt.binaries.3d.poser), and also a member here since Willow was in charge. Legume made a reference to AOY and asked (rhetorically) if he could possibly qualify, but the poll was removed before I could vote. There was some debate and argument in the newsgroup about the relative merits of Legume vs. Toxicangel (sp?), which seemed to boil down to which one we were in closer personal contact with. People get angry there and disagree, and they're not mindless minions of Legume or anybody else.

This AOY controversy has brought out the worst in 'rosity IMVHO. Typically, cliques of friends and associates are attacking those who aren't part of their cliques, based on personal prejudice, rather than any dispassionate logic or examination of the facts. Add to that brew the usual "some are more equal than others" comments, where old-timers imagine their views are more valid than newbies, or the only opinions that matter are from those with extensive galleries, from those making law enforcement references, et al.

The anti-Legume faction is one of the cliques here. Their automatic rejection of anything Legume says or does, combined with their ludicrous and unfounded accusations, reveals the bankruptcy of their reactionary stance. Now it involves the AOY. My feeling is that there were some slip-ups involved in the planning and implementation of the AOY for which Legume is not to blame. I would assume that the 'rosity management has gotten the point by now, so why not take the heat off them and let them do damage control? Two possible solutions: either declare the AOY in abeyance for 2002, or re-open it to general voting, once AOM for December is selected.