Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/productlist/190/

::insert teletype sound effects here:: While perusing the CL website to see if a better patch has been released for P5 since SR-2.1, what to my surprise do I see?? A new program released from CL!! This new program is called Pro-V (heh, like the word Pro is synonamous with CL :oP) which is supposed to be the "ultimate tool for Web Authoring". Excuse the skeptisim, after all, I've only been sitting on this P5 paperweight for over four months hoping it'd get fixed, only to find out that CL is off and doing other things. Sure, sure, probably a different design team working on that product, but one would have to wonder where the money came from to pay for the production of it... ...one would have to think from the sales of Poser 5, which many of us still sit waiting to be fixed. Instead of using that money to get their Poser Staff back up to par to fix P5's problems, they turn around an put it into another application. And wonder of wonder, what do you know, this new software package ALSO has a portal for Content Paradise in it. I have one suggestion and one question... My suggestion: Wait before buying this new piece of software, I sure wouldn't want lightning to strike my wallet a second time in a year from a company who has yet to fix the problems with their Cornerstone Application: "Poser". And my Question... When the hell are they going to get around to making Poser 5 a stable application which can actually be used for more than a paperweight? Sincerely Torqued off, Jack D. Kammerer

Jack,
what do you expect ?
Has CL ever solved the bugs on the ProPack ?
It seems to me that they are now satisfied with their work, after they released SR2.1, or has anyone heard something from CL after the last release ?
I talked to my reseller (where i bought Poser5) before christmas about returning this piece of crap and getting my money back, and i wonder, he said that this would be no problem. So i will wait till the end of january if there will be any good solutions from CL and then i will return Poser 5 and, i swear, NEVER buy any kind of software from this company (and i spend a lot of money in Poser4, the ProPack and their latest achievement called Poser 5).
Just my 2 cents.

Ron

Jack, I'm tired of reading your agenda filled hate posts bashing CL. It was interesting for a little while, but not anymore. CL has listened to users of Poser5, changed the EULA, posted numerious fixes, and enabled features that wern't on the box. Are there still issues with Poser5, yes, but its far from a paperwieght. Even the posts in the Beta Forum have lessened. I for one will make sure that my money does not go toward any Jack D. Kammerer associated products. What would make you happy? Kupa has addressed many of your concerns in other posts, answered you directly, yet you continue. What DO you want? Blah, probably falling on deaf ears.

I don't really work with Shockwave or Viewpoint, although I suppose it'll be of interest to others. $1600+ is a bit out of my price range, anyway.

Clearly there is a much larger axe being ground here than dissapointment with P5. I strongly suspect there is an old grudge or some business agenda at work. Poser5 has issues, but the fixes ARE coming at a good clip, Poser5 is a extremely useful tool for the vast majority of users and CL has made many changes in response to user requests. That won't change anything of course, because the flaws in Poser5 aren't really the reasons for the attacks I think... just the excuse.

Machine Claw asked: "What DO you want?" Answer: Simple, my Poser 5 to work, to render without crashing (on a 2ghrz p4 w/1.8 gig of RAM) and I still can not get one freaking render from Poser 5. To get the rest of the content that was supposed to come with the program. To get the same use out of Poser 5 that I am getting out of Poser 4/Pro Pack. Great, they gave me extra stuff that didn't orginally come with Poser 5 (volume lighting effects) but none of that crap is doing me any good when I can't render a damn thing. My only "agenda" when it comes to Curious Labs and Poser 5, is to get the value out of that program that it is supposed to deliver (not crash or give me ballooned objects). Yes, they changed the EULA (they had too or support for that product, which has yet to work, wouldn't come out) and yes, some fixes and additions... but like someone already said, is this going to be all there is, is Poser 5 going to be "fixed" like Poser 4 was, or Pro Pack? Riddled with bugs that we'll have to tolerate till the next release of Poser???? My "agenda" is to get this darn thing fixed so I can use it. If your satisfied with bugs in Poser 5, good on you, I am happy for you. But if people don't speak up and everyone sinks into appathy, Poser 6 (if there is to be one) is going to be just as bug ridden, because: "What the hell, they'll bitch for a little while and then that'll be the end of it". So no, it isn't falling on deaf ears, but neither am I going to be mute about owning a program that I can't use or be content with it. Jack

MachineClaw,
the posts in the betaforum has lessened because no one of the CL-Stuff is there to answer the open questions and issues. They are on holiday, spending our money ;-) .
The Dynamic Clothingfeature and the Hairroom are the major reasons why i bought Poser 5. Is one of this 2 features in an acceptable condition as CL promised ? No. The bugs in clothroom are present since the very first release of Poser 5, also the hairroom.

Ron

$1,700 seems expensive. For that kind of coin, you could buy the whole "shebang" from Macromedia (5 or 6 products) for a really professional Flash site. Not sure what "3D" means, though. Also, did I miss any examples of some sites to view? Surely for that money one could see some "working" examples.

Jack: I'd offer to swap you my 850MHz Pentium 3 system w/128MB of RAM (on which Poser 5 is working sufficiently for me to play with) for your 2GHz P4 w/1.8GB of RAM (on which it isn't), but I'll be upgrading my hardware in a few days anyway.

Jack, exactly how many forums are you going to bitch and complain with the same exact post? Besides, your system is probably a POS anyhow. Me, I'm running an AMD Athlon XP 1600 with 512MB DDR and the only proble I ever had was a few of those caught c exceptions or whatever they were called. I've noticed that most of the people who say they crash and what have you are those who get their computers via some mass production, take what you get, destined to die within a years time PC.

Oh. Yay.
Another bash CL thread. The snickering hyenas should be along pretty soon.
Bookmark

"The snickering hyenas should be along pretty soon." Might as well come so they can party with the brain dead sheep. Rah rah olay!

I'm going to mark this'n so I can see how long it takes for it to get moved to OT forum. ;] Ya'll have fun. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Jack does have a valid point. Poser5 still has issues for some people, it still doesn't work 100% as CL intended it to. That doesn't mean I'm going to bash them tho. They've done a great job getting it to work for most of us, but it would be nice to know they're working on fixing the remaining bugs.

CL should not fix bugs in P 5 - they just should come over with a definite statement if there will be a Mac version or not. and if when....the situation is .....

I'd like to know a little more about the program. Viewpoint used to want a ton of money for one of their licences and the export from Poser never was that perfect. Good, but not perfect. As an aside PhilC's characters work very well, in particular his pony girl character BUT he always said that his characters weren't to be used in Viewpoint because the mesh could be extracted. Potentially, this could be a very relevant program for me but, can I trust it to deliver. I suppose I'll wait and see when the 30 day trial comes out on Computer Arts or Digit. Could be useful....

Hey, Jack... while you are grinding your axe again, can you sharpen my knives? I noticed while chopping walnuts for persimmon cookies that the large one was getting dull. Of course, my blades are used productively. Hmm... considering the state of your axe, I don't think I'd trust you to make any point. Carolly

30 Day trial is available at the CL site, 48 MB.

i stop putting my money and faith in CL. they have screwed some of the people, ( yet not all of them). and still they ( the people) come back for more, i often wonder how many times does one have to get slapped in the face before he notices thats something is wrong. its a shame that CL can't be like Adobe or corel, releasing a product that really works.as for CL bashing, well they bashed the fine users who bought there product by releasing something that causes more headaces than enjoyment. so if they can't take the heat, they best leave the kitchen.

This is why I don't spend much time here.

I'm so glad to see that some folks are finally standing up to Jack and his rants. Jack won't be satisfied till he "kills the goose that laid the golden egg." Whatta guy.

well first you need the golden egg.

Poser 5 is still very buggy. Memory management is horrible. I have issues I have documented in the beta forum throughout Christmas that I expect them to look at and address in upcoming service releases. The hair collision is almost useless and it has been like this since day one, was documented as a bug since day one by Nerd3D too and I haven't seen it being addressed in any service release yet. The general collision detection doesn't works as it should either. A user (Ockam I think is his name) is working on collision detection via Phyton that seems to work a lot better than what Curious Labs have managed to put in the package . I am keeping my faith in them but I will be very disapointed if they stop trying to fix something that should have worked long ago. There has to be an explanation to that other software that they are selling because I agree their top priority should be delivering a stable Poser 5.

Then buy them, or develop your own product, or simply return it. That is the power that you have, and the only one that any business today will listen to. Standing there whining -- yes, whining -- no longer does any good, only bad. Sqeaky wheels only get the grease when a few are squeaky. Otherwise the whole thing gets thrown away. Thoughtfulness requires going beyond the obvious.

return it?? thats a good one. ppl have tried, and from my understanding from others CL doesn't like to give refunds. its a shame that CL can't fix there own bugs, maybe they should hire some of the fine folks here, they seem to be the ones spotting the bugs and fixing them, not CL.

EULA or not, the laws of most of the world still essentially state that if something does not work as advertised, then it can be returned. Given a dislike for giving money back, perhaps an attorney would be called for, so I will retract the "simply". Otherwise, the rest stands. Thank you for the information.

i guess CL don't know about them laws yet.

No, I think they do. Willing compliance with them is another matter entirely. ;-)

Thanks Prime but 48 mg isn't a download, it's a divorce...

ouch,,, saxon.. ROFLOL

What about this: Why doesn't CL completely finish a product before starting another one? Let's see Poser 5 working 100% perfect, not just "they're working on it" or "SR 2 fixes most things". What about P5 for the Mac (or the long list of things to fix in the Windows version)? Have they given it up in favor of this Pro-V program (which, by the way, is 4 times more expensive than Poser)? Does this means that CL is getting out of the 3-D business and into the web authoring business? And will Pro-V be a repeat of history? Can people expect to shell out $1600 (or whatever) for a program that crashes all the time and won't really work until SR2 is released? We've seen the "quality" of their new products, can we expect more of the same? And since CL is working on other products now, does anyone know how Avatar Lab 2.0 is coming along?

Considering the unfortunate flak this Jack person is getting for posting this thread and an opinion, perhaps there should be a poll? A vote by the members about this Poser 5? I don't have any poser 5. I do like the pictures in the gallery no matter which poser anyone uses. Unless someone tells me, I can't tell the difference which poser is which. Is this a bad thing? It's probably because I don't know much about poser, other than the pretty gallery artwork created with it. I can really tell the wonderful artists apart from each other though, there seems to be some very cool artwork done with all five posers in the poser gallery. It works for me. Happy New Year

Curious Labs reminds me of Excalibur BBS. "I used to run a BBS many years ago". They sell working Beta's of software hoping the "testers" will able them to pull up on this product. I lost many users when I switched ovet to Excalibur BBS from my triBBS system. I guess from all the stuff I am reading here it is maybe a good idea to wait until the Curious Labs Poser 5.0B is finished before I buy it? I am pretty happy with my Metacreations Poser 4.0 without all the other problems I read about all the time.

I want Poser 5 to be working a lot better and not developing new software elsewhere.

I for one, congratulate Jack on maintaining the flame. One of my main gripes with plenty of software developers is their newly acquired "habit" of releasing buggy software and not TOTALLY fixing it. They make us buy the new version without making the previous one useable in all aspects.... and that surely doesn't guarantee the new version will be any better. why would anyone buy something that does not and will not work as advertised? That's just plain ridiculous and bordering on idiotic on the part of the purchaser. We should be able to buy sofyware, or any product, and expect it to work fully as advertised....if I want to use this particular version and not buy the new one, I should be able to do so with a fully working product....period... If all you lemmmings allow this to continue happening, which has now become pretty much status quo in the software industry, you'll be fighting this same battle over and over. But from what I've seen and read, most of you have already caved in and just EXPECT software to arrive full of bugs. You EXPECT it!!! And that is exactly what you'll get. You expect things to not be fully working, features missing.....oh, the company will fix them....but do they???? Not just to bash CL, as this pertains to many software developers, but since we're on the Poser list....why didn't CL fix the problems in Poser 4 that folks have been bitching and whining about for 2 years???? nuff said.

Lemmings LOL that is a good one. i love that pharse.

Locked Locked Locked Dammit! Why won't my locked button work anymore!?

Well, Good for you Jack!!! I had poser5 on the first couple of weeks. But when it crashed my brand new computer I took it off. I was and am disappointed that it's so much harder to use than Poser4. I just want to make pictures, the easyest way possible. and 5 is not that. I'm waiting for a true fix for Poser 5.

It's understandable that people are still feeling disappointed over the P5 issue. What we got is not what was promised or expected. True, much has been fixed, but that doesn't take away the bad taste. Personally, I'm waiting to see how Daz Studio shapes up.

I just checked the pricing for CL's new product- Pro-V. And, yes, it is outrageous! Some comparisons:

• Microsoft FrontPage 2002: (okay, not the greatest web-authoring tool) $169.00 (by itself; usually comes bundled with Office)
• Macromedia Dreamweaver MX: (from the people who invented Flash) $399.00
• Adobe GoLive! 6.0: (from the leader in computer-graphic desktop applications) $399.00
• Lightwave 7.5 (full): (used in Star Trek: Voyager, Babylon 5, pre-viz for Star Wars: Episode II, etc., etc., etc.) $1,595.00 (note: not a web-authoring tool, but a product in the price range as Pro-V)
• Pro-V 1.0: (from the same people who made Avatar Labs and Poser 5) $1,699.00 *Note: all pricing information found on each company's website ("order now" page). And it probably goes without saying that Dreamweaver, GoLive, and Lightwave have had Mac versions available for some time (and for the same price). Pro-V does not even mention a Mac version. So, just how "ultimate" is Pro-V, version 1.0? Is it $1,300 more "ultimate" than GoLive (which is on version 6.0) or Dreamweaver (which has native support for Flash and ColdFusion)?

Well.. At least so far, Unlike the people who make "World Builder", CL doesn't think everyone should pay them another $150 for their newest point release. Try spending $1000 on a piece of cra.. Oops! I mean "software" that after more than a year, still doesn't have a manual, and still has no problem crashing every 10 minutes on you. They also had no problem with expecting money for another "product" they released, while their "flagship" program was still buggy to the point of being worthless to a lot of people. It's true that this seems to have become the "norm" for way too many software companies. Are they really so perplexed over how many people have no problem with downloading 'Warez' versions of their overpriced, if not worthless, "Barely Beta" software??

Didnt Metacreations( Meta Who???) abandon the 3d arena to cash in on the web boom?? how did that "rotating product in the browser window" thingy work out?? With all the Cg in movies and commercial advertising 3D is a growth industry. while web authoring is a financial wastland except for Database driven big commerce sites. Sites that are already being maintained by Coldfusion and ultrdev from macromedia. Oh well Good luck

Buggy, not fully working.......has anyone heard of Mictosoft.

Ay, dios mio, I have a bad feeling about this. Metacreations got into web-bells-and-whistles technology just before dumping all its 3D products, including a buggy version of Poser 4. Now is Curious going into bells-and-whistles web-technology before dumping its 3D products, meaning an unfinished version of Poser 5?

Where do these guys get the advice that the Internet is a cash cow to be pumped by everybody with a web-authoring scheme?

Mictowho?

Cant say I am having now or over the last month a single problem with Poser 5, I am pretty happy with it.

I hate to chime in on these types of posts but I have to agree...you should get what you were promised. Don't get me wrong I really like Poser (4 +Pro more than 5 at this point), but I bought the upgrade to do hair & collision detection, automatic secondary animation & for the better renderer...and they are really not working as advertised. I will also tell you (from my legal background) that regardsless of the EULA or whatever, if you are unsatisfied because it doesn't deliver the features advertised you do have the right to your money back (30 days or not). CL can say whatever they want...I know this because I also own and sell my own software. BUT.....in saying that, I do think it will come around...or at least hope so. Poser is an amazing tool and has real potential if it could be made more usable, especially by the pros, Poser could take the market. I'll be keeping P5 for now, I sure hope it "all" works soon. Just my thoughts, Chris

I don't think anybody should be bashing Jack over this. I think he's showing remarkable restraint. I don't have poser 5 and won't get it( can't export the hair or cloth ) the only reason I would have even considered it. That said... You have to kidding me folks. If I had bought this and it didn't work after this long( and I couldn't get my money back) you would need a striaghjacket to restrain me. I for one refuse to be treated like a beta test monkey. If I want to beta test something I'll sign up for it. A program as popular as poser could have had an endless supply of people willing to test this for free. Wouldn't have cost them a dime( well a few free copies BFD ). They would have had a wider hardware base to test on. Bad move all around on CL's part and I fear they will pay for it My 1 cent hey I'm overdrawn this month

Some questions: What happens if CL dumps Poser like Metacrap did? There isn't a competitive package in terms of price and capabiliites, is there? How big a market does Poser make for CL vs the total community? How big is the Poser market en total? While Poser5 requires the patience of Job, what incentive does CL have to fix it to the same ease of use that was availble in Poser4?

MICROSOFT - sorry can't spell, too much buggy software.

I expected to be flamed for saying what I have in regard to my concerns with Poser 5. Nothing new or unexpected, considering I am going against the grain here displaying my discouragement with Poser 5 in a Community that has been rabidly defending the Poser application since the Poser One List was created. Hell, I've been one of those people. And in my five years of being a vocal member of this Community has fought to defend Poser, the value it brought to artists and the people who created it. However, I am no longer willing to strive on in blind devotion, considering that I make my living around 3D Applications. If wanting satisfaction for a product that I worked for (in which others in this Community have paid for), to have the program work without crashing and be able to do all of the things that both the box and company "says" it can do is considered as having an axe to grind, then I guess I do. Yes, I have a POS computer, bought off of a store shelf. However, Maya 3, Lightwave 7.5, Carrarra 2, Bryce 5 and other applications run just fine on this POS HP of mine. No crashing, no slow drag times... even Poser 4/Pro Pack runs just fine on this machine. I am sick of hearing people say that because I didn't "build" my own work station, I should just expect Poser 5 to have problems. 90% of people here own POS systems and if Poser 5 was meant to run on something other than a POS system, then they should've stated that and stayed a "cult" program. So that "excuse" doesn't fly with me. Yes, I am frustrated and you better believe I am going to be vocal about being frustrated. I LOVE Poser, always have, wouldn't be here if I didn't and it is FRUSTRATING to have Poser 5 sitting here, in it's box and see what others can achieve with Poser 5 (those that manage to get it to work) and not be able to use it myself!! And maybe, just maybe, if people just didn't sit there quietly "waiting" for CL to get around to fixing it and coming out with a MAC version, CL would put a little more effort into getting this application to work the way that it was intended too so we can all go back to making our art! Go ahead and flame me for being vocal about my disappointment, rabidly defend your bug ridden software that doesn't do the most that it can or should, be happy trying to find ways around software bugs. But let me tell you this, I am fighting to make this application work. Not just for my POS computer system, but for CL to get their application to work in order so that Poser can be around for a few more Versions. So flame away. Jack