Well Robby, I don't think you really want to have an explanation but here goes.

Some people have minds of their own and like to make decisions for themselves. Some people do not like management making choices for them. Some people actually thought that they should get to choose who the, ARTIST OF THE YEAR, for this whole 100,000 member website community, was going to be. Some people think that having the management vote for the AOY is ludicrous, when the membership is trusted to vote for the AOM, why not the AOY ?(which is much more important)

You want to trivialize this and I want to tell you why it IS worth getting steamed about. AOY does mean somthing. First of all there were monitary gains to be had and secondly, the winner, would have a nice feather in their caps. It would look really good on a resume when interviewing for a job !

This is life, why not live it

"It would look really good on a resume when interviewing for a job" assuming that job is producing soft porn I suppose it might :)

There were no winners - everybody lost, not only the admins, but also the members and artists. I think Toxic Angel should withdraw his name from the whole sordid process if he has any self-respect. If he puts it on his resumand some employer does some digging, it won't look very nice after the facts come to light.

mateo, you have a lot of gall saying that about Toxic Angel. He had nothing to do with this and was, in fact, as much a victim of the whole mess as Legume and every other nominee was.
As far as I'm concerned, Toxic Angel has every right to this accolade.
You have no right to insinuate anything against his character because of a mess the admins made.

You owe him an appology as far as I'm concerned.

Fer gods sakes Illusions - CLOSE TAGS! CLOSE TAGS! ;]

Mosca: "Now, apparently, you want me to never, ever say the word "Legume"

Me: No, I want you to separate the issues...I just want you to be honest and stick to your real gripe which seems to be the PTB's are against Legume.

Mosca: "what I've said over and over is this: the way the poll was pulled...gave the appearance, to me, that management had invoked the Legume Rule once again...and withdrew the voting specifically because he...was making a run at first place"

Me: AH...at last we get to the heart of the matter, gee it would have been nice if you said that in the first place and stuck to it.

Mosca: "There's also an injustice done to ToxicAngel, and the other finalists."
Me: Nice of you to mention that but that evidently takes a back seat to your primary gripe.

Mosca: "Management says it was all a big mistake; I'm not convinced by that explanation."

Me: Tammymc said it was a mistake made by her, why would she lie? (Hmmm...reminiscent of the 60's...don't trust the etablishment).

Mosca" "Once again, FOMs (friends of management) are determined to make me the issue, and divert attention away from the message"

Me: Well, if you are referring to me I don't know any of the management let alone consider any of them friends. The only management that I knew and that I would consider a friend, is Ironbear...and he is no longer management here. As far as you being the issue...that's not the case. I have an issue with the way you go off "half-cocked", with the way you twist the facts to suit your needs, and with your "saber rattling". Nothing more, nothing less. As far as "diverting attentions away from the message" you kept changing the message...no need to blame anyone but yourself for that.

Mosca: "...attacking me just serves to keep these threads alive, and gives me an opportunity to ask, yet again, the questions I have regarding this year's AOY process."

Me: I don't know about anyone else...but I'm not attacking you Mosca...I'm debating the validity of your questions and your statements.

CyberStretch: "Seems like illusions has it out for you, Mosca. ;0)"

Me: No, I'm entitled to state my opinion, point of view, and debate...just like Mosca, you, or anyone else. Mosca started the "campaign" and has been the most "vocal" about it...I disagree with his position, the validity of his statements, and the way he goes about doing it. It's as simple as that.

dialyn: "I honestly think the whole AOY thing was messed up. And, yes, I think it should be revised (or just eliminated as an idea). snip "...What I don't buy into is this whole conspiracy thing. There is no logic to that. I can't deal with X-Files explanations."

Me: I have to agree with you dialyn. The idea of AOY not being determined by the membership is not the best idea. Although Time Magazine makes it's own determination of who will be "Person of the Year" so it's not that appalling of a concept. As far as conspiracy theories go...I agree with you 100%

Mosca: "My opinion on this matter is not based on conjecture and belief--it's based on my years of experience here, practically since day one, observing management's behavior: what they've done versus what they've said."

Me: Bottom line, your "years of experience here" = conjecture and belief and theories, which are the only conclusions that can be drawn through observation of anyone or anythings behavior.

Mosca: "It would be a wonderful world indeed if we were all 100% morally perfect in every regard, yes. Which leads me to wonder what your motivation is here--just baiting me, I suppose, which is fine."

Me: My motivation is to state my opinion...I disagree with your tactics, statements, and issues...why shouldn't I be able to do that without being called a shill, an FOM, or any other name?

Mosca: "Apparently you're happy with management's actions re AOY, but you shouldn't be--if I'm right about what happened, then they could just as easily do the same thing to you."

Me: Well, I don't think the way AOY is being done is the best way, but then again, the fact that members can't be trusted not to clone isn't very settling either. Please don't tell me what I should or should not be happy with...until you can provide more than opinions based on your observations...I don't feel you're very competent to determine what should or should not make me happy. If you're right about what happened...and thats a A VERY BIG IF I'd be very surprised! Somehow I can't see Legume being the motivation behind all this compared to the difficulty in having a legitimate vote without cloning and other such nonsense.

Mosca: "Sometimes I just crack me up, y'know?"

Me: Yep...sometimes you crack some of us up too! :^P

Theenk yew velly velly much. ;]

OOOOOOOPS...heheheh...caught that Ironbear, deleted and re-posted with closed tags! Uh...IB...you might want to back away from the fire a bit...I think your toes are smoking! :^P

"If he puts it on his resumand some employer does some digging, it won't look very nice after the facts come to light." What a load of bollocks. He did great to win. Big up on him.

"He did great to win." He didn't win. Admin decided to "honour" him with a meaningless "Title" that has been tarnished by the admins themselves.

Yeah, caught my 'stash on fire also. ;] Makes it much easier to read now.

"conjecture and belief and theories...are the only conclusions that can be drawn through observation of anyone or anythings behavior." If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, my theory would tend to be that it may, in fact, be a duck.

Has anyone else noticed that ElorOnceDark and Doc Legume could be twin sons of different mothers?

"He didn't win." Yes, he did win. The fact you wish to lessen his achievement in order to attack the "terrible admins" is pathetic. Of course, you could have said "Well done to Toxic Angel for winning the competition, even though it was badly managed" but of course that wouldn't have given you the chance to bring someone down. And for those who think I'm a Legume-hater - that's not true. I genuinely think he is a funny guy and a great asset to this community (or was??? - has he gone now???) and if he had won - or "received the title" - whatever - I'd have been congratulating him now instead. I didn't vote because the poll had disappeared when I went, but I was going to vote for Legume. However, the fact he didn't win what most agree was a poorly organised competition doesn't induce me to take a hissy fit and decry the winner's title as "meaningless".

Hell people the war is over, the admins won. They did what they wanted with no regard to the membership, as usual, and there you go.... we all know where we stand now.

We had a pretty good idea of where we stood the moment the poll came down, or last year when they changed the AOM process after Legume won, or when they shut down C&D, and on and on. No skateboarding in the mall. Nothing to look at here, folks--please go back to your paint-by-numbers sets.

"Yes, he did win.The fact you wish to lessen his achievement in order to attack the "terrible admins" is pathetic" How do you consider this to be an "acheivement? What did he win? was it presented fairly? no. Was it open to all members to decide as was the first poll that was posted and pulled? no. How is this considered a hissy fit when he himself said he did not want to win this way? To offer congratulations would imply that i agree with the way this was handled and the outcome. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Now if they had let the poll stand, there's a good bet he would have won, and i would congratulate him. As it stands now- it's meaningless. Spiritbro is correct, as usual, there was the obligitory " oops gee i am sorry" then the "ask for feedback, not because we will actually do anything with it but hey if it gets them to shut up..."routine, then comes the total disregard for any feedback recieved.

You forgot the usual several days of silence while they circled the wagons. And sending shills to the forums to disrupt and divert the critics and complainers (bitchers and derailers, as one of the mods put it). And the summary and arbitrary bannings (x2000). The only surprise is that they haven't locked and deleted the critical threads yet--I guess they don't really have a pretext for doing so, since the tone has remained more or less civil.

Just to be historically accurate. The AOM voting process was changed after Legume and Mr Codini won in a row. Mr Codini was the last member that was actually nominated by the membership. It was believed that 2 sub-genius's winning, in a row, was setting a trend that Renderosity admins would rather have avoided. This was never confirmed, of course, but it did quack like a duck ! I also must say that there was NEVER an announcement that the AOY voting rules were changing, at least in my memory. Sorry to say, Illusions, but you seem to be the only one to remember any such announcement. If there would have been such an announcement then you would have seen huge threads, such as these, "discussing" that announcement. The Membership would have been in an uproar.

Mosca: "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, my theory would tend to be that it may, in fact, be a duck."

Me: Hmmmm...unless of course, it's a grebe, a duck-like bird with short legs designed for diving...which is often mistaken for a duck.

shouldn't sny changes have been posted in here? after all- it does say uptop "This forum is to be used to contact the administration of this website to address issues relating to the operation and well-being of this community. On occasion, the team will use this forum to communicate with members about announcements relevant to the site and/or operation of this community. " Also what prize was awarded? it said there would be a prize awarded for AOY? Now either they chose to not announce it- (which could possibly be illegal - refering to the other threads where tennessee contest rules and regs are posted and viewing the post office contest and sweepstakes fraud page) or they decided to not give one which again could possibly violoate Tennessee contest regulations and Post office regulations because if they said one was being given and they didnt....

Badco: The AOM voting process was changed after Legume and Mr Codini won in a row. (snip) It was believed that 2 sub-genius's winning, in a row, was setting a trend that Renderosity admins would rather have avoided. This was never confirmed, of course, but it did quack like a duck !

Me: "Never confirmed"...perhaps it was whispered in the men's room...a most reliable source of facts.

So, two ducks walk into a men's room...

Good point, Cheryle--I'd forgotten about the Mystery Prize. Maybe it depends who the winner is (Anyone but Legume: software, a big-ass Wacom, a free trip to Siggraph, etc., etc. Legume: a gift certificate to Arby's). I'm also curious about the conduct of the admin/mod AOY "vote." tammymc said each mod and each admin would get one vote, to be weighted equally. So what were the numbers? Who was the runner-up? Who was Miss Congeniality? Management could go a long way toward dispelling mistrust if it was a bit more trasnparent about these processes.

Mosca: "So, two ducks walk into a men's room..." Me: Look again, I have it on good authority they were grebes, not ducks at all... :^P

"How do you consider this to be an "acheivement? What did he win? was it presented fairly? no." Well, we're never going to agree here, but to me it's an achievement for a guy who (a) won AOM and (b) was actually in the lead when the AOY voting was pulled, to be given the title. It's not as if he'd previously had no chance and his name was picked out of a hat. There would have been just the same amount of uproar (if not more) if Legume had won, amongst allegations of vote fixing, etc, so would his victory have been equally scorned? If utter fairness were a criterion for acceptance of the validity for a title (lot of long words, there) then how many presidents or prime ministers or councillors would there be whose positions were respected and recognised? (Hint, the answer is none). "he himself said he did not want to win this way?" Of course he didn't, who would? But because the way AOY works he'll never get another chance at it and to tarnish this unique achievement because of the failings of others is, in my eyes, plain mean.

"But because the way AOY works he'll never get another chance at it" Yes he will- Roobol was AOM in december and the rules state one is not elegible for another year- yet He is up For AOM this month as well.

"There would have been just the same amount of uproar (if not more) if Legume had won, amongst allegations of vote fixing, etc, so would his victory have been equally scorned?" You mean, if the admins chose him? Or the members?

It doesn't matter who had chose Legume.....the win would have been tainted because it would have been perceived that Legume won because he and his advocates were louder and more squeaky than those of the other artists (who have seemed very quiet by comparison). The only difference is that if he had won, we would have had a lot of crowing about the success of the strategy, and he wouldn't have pulled his gallery and other art (did he do that to protest not winning or the administrators or because he is a spoil sport who pouts when he doesn't get his own way....and who cares?) The joke has been played on all of us. Too bad it wasn't funny.

"You mean, if the admins chose him? Or the members?" I was meaning if the members chose him - if the admins had never jumped in with their size 13s and instead had let the voting go on. (I know Legime would never get chosen by the admins!) But I reckon if he'd have won there would have been a big to-do about vote stuffing and "improper art" and there would be a lot of members saying the same thing about Legume's win as is now being said about Toxic Angel's - i.e. it's not worth anything. In that respect, no matter what you think of what happened, the basic outcome was always going to be the same.

"Well, we're never going to agree here" I agree with that statement " but to me it's an achievement for a guy who (a) won AOM and (b) was actually in the lead when the AOY voting was pulled, to be given the title." Not the way it was done, not to mention it might have been illegal according to Postal Regulations concerning Sweepstakes and contest, and tennessee law. " It's not as if he'd previously had no chance and his name was picked out of a hat". That actually may have been more fair but that is neither here nor there. " There would have been just the same amount of uproar (if not more) if Legume had won, amongst allegations of vote fixing, etc, so would his victory have been equally scorned?" Actually it would have been scorned more. If utter fairness were a criterion for acceptance of the validity for a title We are talking about legalities here- Were tennessee contest rules and reg violated? Were Postal regulations concerning contests and sweepstakes violated? Kinda looks that way... (lot of long words, there) thats ok- you may use them, i will understand them in spite of your implied view that i would not. then how many presidents or prime ministers or councillors would there be whose positions were respected and recognised? (Hint, the answer is none). Don't even go there- I work for campain managers grinding out political ads.There wasn't a day that went by that one campaign manager was not calling up the next threatening lawsuits for inflammation of char, slandser, libel etc and in the end we did nothing illegal. It was ugly and the ads made the papers but it was still legal. "he himself said he did not want to win this way?" " But because the way AOY works" The way AOY works is whicherver the admins want it to work at any given moment, which is the issue not Legume vs Toxic Angel. " he'll never get another chance at it and to tarnish this unique achievement" It's not unique and see above he will of course get another chance.See above " because of the failings of others is, in my eyes, plain mean. " Instead of considering it mean, why not try to get it changed for the better so it doesn't happen again- How many people have to go thru this charade befor enough is enough? Some of us ARE trying to make this a tad more fair and trying to get admins to be a tad more responsive, accountable , but it seems to be a losing battle.

True--by choosing to appease the Legume haters, management traded one problem for another. One that probably seems more manageable in the long run. I'm not sure they factored everything in when making that decision, though--we'll see.

I honestly don't think they were appeasing Legume haters...I don't recall anyone posting anti-Legume language. I don't hate Legume. I don't know Legume. He has a devoted and vocal following, that's all I was saying. This league of Legume haters is the conspiracy in your head...I don't think it exists in reality.

"I agree with that statement..." + long post... + "We are talking about legalities here" I wasn't. I have not posted any views about how well the contest was managed, how it might be improved, what the legalities of the decision were, I was merely stating that a winner had been announced and it would be nice if a few people could just say "well done", instead scrabbling around for any leverage possible in their War Against Unjust Contest Rulings even if it means rubbishing somebody's very impressive acheivements. "thats ok- you may use them, i will understand them in spite of your implied view that i would not." That inference never crossed my mind; I was trying to make my post just a little more light-hearted, but I guess anything can be twisted around if you try hard enough. And as for winning AOY twice, yeah, sure, that could happen... : It's like, Oh, I've lost my winning lottery ticket - don't worry, you can enter next week.

Go look in the previous threads- it's there- I am at work right now so i am not going to babysit and post them in here but i found more than a few . Also that last dig was unnessesary, and a possible violation of tos ( considered a personal attack by implyuing one is crazy)

EEP Post 86 was response to post 84- not yours tuttle.

Tuttle i can't say well done because no matter who "won" it was not well done! It was gross incompetence at best, possibly illegal at worst. (not the artists- the way it was handled) Please excuse typos- i am not at my reg workstation.

Oh, yes, of course. Mosca can create a League of Legume Haters (post #83) so of course my protest that it may not exist outside of his accusations makes me a TOS violator. It's really amusing how far one will go to get rid of anyone who disagrees with your point of view. Sad. But I'm not surprised. I used to watch the X-Files. Mulder believed in conspiracies. I didn't think the fictional character of Mulder was crazy because of his beliefs, nor do I doubt many conspiracy theorists in reality are less than sincere. For the record, I don't think and didn't imply that Mosca was crazy...that was a label placed on my words by Cheryle (post #86). I don't think every conspiracy a person thinks exists does exists...just because I think a thing doesn't bring it into reality, nor does it make me insane because it isn't real. That was my opinion only, and if you want me off the forums, there are easier ways to achieve it. For the record, I wouldn't try to judge the sanity of anyone on these forums by their posts, nor would I want that responsibility.

Oh, and because I want to keep my sanity, that's the end of my reading this thread today. Enjoy your Sunday, everyone. Time for me to spend mine more productively.

diaylyn Oh, yes, of course. Mosca can create a League of Legume Haters (post #83) newp- that was attributed to him by other members in previous posts. so of course my protest that it may not exist outside of his accusations makes me a TOS violator. newp- the way you phrased it does. It's really amusing how far one will go to get rid of anyone who disagrees with your point of view newp- wouldnt do that cause then it would get boring. . Sad. But I'm not surprised. I used to watch the X-Files Mulder believed in conspiracies. I didn't think the fictional character of Mulder was crazy because of his beliefs, nor do I doubt many conspiracy theorists in reality are less than sincere. And this has to do with a contest gone bad how? For the record, I don't think and didn't imply that Mosca was crazy...that was a label placed on my words by Cheryle (post #86). This league of Legume haters is the conspiracy in your head...I don't think it exists in reality. I can see how that doesn't imply that now! Thx for clearing that up! I don't think every conspiracy a person thinks exists does exists...just because I think a thing doesn't bring it into reality, nor does it make me insane because it isn't real. Actually i think that is one of the definitions of insanity. That was my opinion only, and if you want me off the forums, there are easier ways to achieve it. Wait- i can say this now-Cause you cleared this up fpr me! No one wants you off the forums! that's a consiracy in your head! I don't think that exists in reality!

"The AOM voting process was changed after Legume and Mr Codini won in a row. Mr Codini was the last member that was actually nominated by the membership. It was believed that 2 sub-genius's winning, in a row, was setting a trend that Renderosity admins would rather have avoided. This was never confirmed, of course, but it did quack like a duck !"

I never believed that it was his art alone that might have turned TPTB against him. And last night after reading a bit in the newsgroup he posts in, I have a much different opinion about Legumes actions regarding this site and the members who created accounts to join him in screwing with us.

I've defended him but I was very offended by the comments I read.
They were all encompassing including not just the admins but the members as well. He and his group has been playing us for a very long time apparently.
I got very angry at reading it and some of you still on the bandwagon for legume would probably be offended at being played so as well.

"Ok kids, let's have some more fun over at Renderosity"
"The gag this time: Two months in a row, a SubGenius wins AOM"
"I can't believe the bitter little trolls at Renderosity!"

and then there's the copy and pasting of forum comments that they have their little fun with. I withdraw any support I had for him.

I'm angry at this whole thing. At the mistake being hashed over and over for two weeks, at Legume for learning we at this site are just here to be played, and at anyone who calls anyone who HAPPENS to disagree with them a "shill".

Me? I'm going to render some more cookie-cutter images he and his friends love to create accounts to belittle. This whole thing just became stupid beyond all belief.

Oh, and Roobol didn't win last year. THAT'S why he's still eligible for AOM this year.

"This league of Legume haters is the conspiracy in your head...I don't think it exists in reality. " I disagree, If you want to see the league of Legume haters, just read the comments on his Magic Pink Pony peice. Tons of Legume haters appeared around that time!Read all the threads. Like I said why argue over this now? The war is over, What is done is done, AOY is appointed by admin FOREVER! The precedent has been set. Thats the way it is folks, you can never vote for AOY again. Period. Now are you going to take the time to vote for AOM? Im not, why bother? AOY though is now chosen by admin alone and there is nothing that can or will be done about it. Admin has once again made a decision with blatant disregard for memberships feelings and will continue to do so every chance they get. Thats just the way things are done at rosity. You better get used to it because it's going to happen again.

"I've defended him but I was very offended by the comments I read.
They were all encompassing including not just the admins but the members as well. He and his group has been playing us for a very long time apparently."

Where? Can ya post some links? I want to be offended too. :)

Kendra Actually there was a front page article on Roobal winning AOM ( not AOY) for decembre- but after rereading the AOM regulations- it appears i was wrong on that one - it states "An artist can only be AOM for one time during the year. Those artists who have won this title during the current year will not be included in the voting for a new AOM." The term current year indicates calendar year not a year from date of "election" Legume aside- I still think the way contests are held on this site definately either need to be overhauled or discontinued. Last time i tried to do the newsgroup thing, i ended up at some bizzare porn site place- been afraid to try again ever since then ;P.

Dialyn, nobody's work gets flamed with the intensity and vitriol that Legume's does (did, I mean, before he yanked his gallery). Don't try to tell me I'm imagining things when I say that Legume provokes strong reaction on both sides of the fence.

Kendra--isn't Legume entitled to his opinions about R'osity? I mean, as long as he stays within the TOS here, he can say and do what he likes over at alt.slack, right?

Huh--just went there, and ab3dp, and didn't see but a few posts from Legume, only one referring to R'osity. Is there another group I don't know about, or do I need a better news service?

Kendra, Which newsgroup are you reffering too ?

I was going to respond to the nonsense attributed to me but I don't see the point. So I deleted my message and you all can thing whatever silly things you want. One point of clarification and one only: Me: ....just because I think a thing doesn't bring it into reality, nor does it make me insane because it isn't real. Cheryl: Actually i think that is one of the definitions of insanity. Reality check: Actually it is the definition of someone who is inventive, creative, and/or artistic. It is not insanity to me...it is what writers and graphic artists do. They create what did not exist before they created it. That is the act of imagination.