Because it's already been given away on too many magazine covers and IIRC is available as a free downlaod (although in German). Although what they're doing isn't doing US any direct good, rebranding a product as a low-end/cheap version of the product line once they have a new high-end isn't exactly revolutionary - even if they could have done a slightly better/neater job of it (IMHO). Trying to sell Poser 3 or lower for more than the price of a mag would border on at least feeling like they were trying to con people. Everyone like the way CL's site describes "Poser Artist" as "Poser Artist is the premiere 3D character and figure design solution for artists and animators" (Full feature Details page). What does THAT say about Poser 5?

LMFAO

Katherine, Please remember that there are many people at this website who actually like and use the various CuriousLabs products and who are glad to hear that the company is continuing to work at improving them and even marketing them to a wider audience. We might not be vociferous, but we are here. Growing and improving the basic software we all use is an advantage to everyone here, whether they admit it or not. "Poser Artist" might get more beginners and students interested in creating scenes full of figures. If so, it will bring more buyers into a Marketplace which has too many products and not enough purchasers. Some of them might turn pro themselves and continue the legacy of passing on learning and tools and products to the next crop of newbies. One of the tech companies probably offers a pair of asbestoes-lined kevlar gloves (what do firemen wear?), but they must be difficult to type in. I wish that I could offer a solution. Carolly

Wow! $99 for Poser Artist! What a DEAL! And i bet it even works as good as P4! Oh, yeah. It IS P4. But $99 is a good price! But wait... definitly WAIT. If they do with Poser Artist what they did for P5, it'll be discounted in less than a month. Then discounted again less than a month later! Don't expect any refunds though. CL doesn't do refunds. Of course, someone is offering P4 for the Mac at EBay for $5 right now. But hey! Don't worry! P6's developement cycle is estimated at 1 year, and they've already started! P6 in a YEAR! Wow! And they say it'll have all the things in P5 fixed and working! But what about P5? Oh yeah. P5 SR4 is being worked on too. No date on that though... Or on what they choose to fix this time. ...and did you know EGISYS is in bankruptcy? Sheesh...

I enjoy Poser.

I do not miss the forums at all. However, occasionally, I check back in.

Personally, I prefer watching political debate shows on TV. Less blood there.

Thanks, CL, for making an effort.

I love Poser - yes, even Poser 5 which mostly doesn't drive me too insane (although others may have different opinions). However I find it difficult to take seriously a company which falls over its virtual feet so often.

...and did you know EGISYS is in bankruptcy? And who said that or where did you read that?

Mmm, unfortunately, I believe it's true. From the CL Q & A page. by MadYuri on August 18, 2003 1:15 How does the bankruptcy of Egisys affect the operations of Curious Labs? A by Curious Labs (Curious_Labs) on August 19, 2003 11:03 No, Curious Labs has not and will not be affected in any way. Curious Labs is a seperate entity to Egisys (legally and otherwise), and so is not affected by what happens in Egisys. Curious Labs has the resources to make new Poser product, and has a positive cash position, and so is stable. I would let you know that the process in Egisys is that of administration. We have been working on a solution to reorganise Egisys throughout this year, with the result that there are a few solutions available. All of these put the future focus of the company more on the Poser product and Curious Labs. The administrator is working on selecting the best solution and putting this into effect. The plans for the Poser product (Mac OSX, plugins, updates, etc.) are still being worked on by Curious Labs." mac

Thanks mac, I didn't see this before.

encouraging, isn't it? err... It's a sad world where companies keep going belly-up - at an alarming rate. Someone somewhere must not know what they're doing, surely.

Hi -- sorry for a late reply -- I was out of the office. My mistake on the area to post the details of Artist. Still getting accustomed to forum communication. Many of you rightfully will not have interest in the rename/re-do of the Poser 4 box artwork to what is now Artist. One of the largest markets for Poser is the Academic market which again, many K-12 classes prefer still to get the Poser 4 technology which is the reason this decision has been made. Some may disagree, but many of the academic customers found the Poser 4 box art too provocative - especially in respect to the younger students. And having a Poser 4 and a Poser 5 product available within the Academic Channel caused more confusion. Development costs are currently being placed into the Poser 5 product line within CL which includes plug-in support. But this was a relatively easy yet useful change to help support the Educational Reseller partners. Hopefully this makes this change more clear. Kind regards, Katherine

Development costs are currently being placed into the Poser 5 product line Mistake :(

Seriously, I would be SO happy with a Poser 4.5!

why mistake Spit? Don't we who bought Poser5 deserve a chance at having a usable program?

I personally am glad they've been putting development costs into Poser 5 since release - it's an AWFUL lot better now than it was on release.

3 service packs already and they're working on another. That's fine. But for ongoing development? Many of us. I'd venture to say a majority of us. Would much prefer a Poser 4.5 that is based on the faster code of Poser 4/propack and not bogged down with 'features' we have absolutely no use for.

It'll never happen, Spit. They even said they're not going to work on the core until Poser 6, so they don't even intend to fix 5. They probably just going to work on some more "issues." (oooh, I'm starting to hate that word)

Yeah, I know. :(

I suspect the closest you'll see to "Poser 4.5" will be the next major version of "Poser Artist" (if we ever GET a "Poser Artist 2" that is). Because reading between the lines it'd seem that future versions will likely be basically a version or two behind the main full price version of Poser. It's be quite unlikely for any vendor to do work on an obsolete/outdated product unless they believe they've got a significant market for it (by which I don't mean a fraction of the existing marketplace - us). IMHO they'd do better to follow previous promises and DAZ3D, and produce a new version from the ground up (as unlikely as that seems).

Hi, Please keep in mind that my statement of CL continuing development on Poser 5 is to mean all future releases planned, not just a service release. That of course means at some point, a new version as well. I hope this was stated a little more clearly. Kind regards, Katherine

bookmark. A new version of P5? This changes this from a SSDD thread to something a bit intriguing. I think I'll stay tuned.

Or by 'New Version' do you mean Poser 6?

Hi, I'm not sure I said new version. Future release means all development in the cycle of a product. Check out the questions and answer from the Spotlight: http://www.renderosity.com/hostedforums.ez?hostedforum_id=90 There's talk of a service release for 5 as well as a plan for 6. Poser Artist will also be placed into development. It's speculation at this point to outline what this will entail which would not be useful information to offer until it's factual. Take care, Katherine

hi Katherine- I'd be nice if the things like cloth room- better lighting and such were add on modules for P4. One at a time things.

Sorry, I was confused. Since you mention future releases as being different than service releases, I thought that meant a new version of Poser 5, since 6 had not yet been brought up here.

Hi, No problem Momcat. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't offering confusing communication. Geoegress, I will definitely pass your idea onto the Product Manager to consider. Kind regards, Katherine

Katherine:- Nice to see you haven't been scared off. There's a rather nasty feeling among some of our members after the Q&A session that Poser 5 is entering it's "stable" period soon (by which I mean no more updates rather than any ability to perform on any particular machine) and that Poser 6 development will concentrate not so much on continuing the evolution of the product as on delivering a subset of what was actually promised for Poser 5. It's possible to get the impresison that the Poser 6 "target specification" is currently viewed as being "Poser 5 - but reliable". Given that even with SR3 (or SR4, when it comes) we apparently already have somewhat less than was promised by Curious Labs members in the past (the new animals comes to mind here as an ideal example, though "new code built from the ground up" can't be ignored) the thought of paying to upgrade to Poser 6 "just to get what we've already paid for" has not endeared CL to some P5 owners. By some I include myself, as when I saw this implication CL immediately lost considerable ground with me. While it's now clear that, whatever Curious Labs's original intentions with Poser 5, the feature set isn't going to be expanded during version 5 to include any promises made and taken by customers in good faith, I hope that CL have/will manage to see considerable room for feature expansion in Poser 6. Just releasing "a largely fixed Poser 5" and asking for money could cause more anger than you'd imagine!

Well I, for one, have found the p5 release to do everything I expected of it, and do it fairly well. It's fast, it's (for me) incredibly stable and has increased the efficiency of my workflow dramatically. To be honest? In the end my only real concern is this: Does Poser5 allow me to satisfy the needs of my clients and internal projects sufficiantly faster/better than p4 that it was worth the upgrade price? The answer is emphatically YES. Are people unhappy? Yup. Is that a bad thing? Sure. But does that constitute a complete failure of CL to deliver what is a substantial upgrade that is worth the price to many artists? Nope, not even close. When Poser6 comes out I will make exactly the same evaluation - is the price going to allow me to make more money or get more done in less time (and thus make more money). If the answer is "yes" I'll buy it, if "no" I won't. No reason to get all personal about it. To be honest, CL is suffering a MS effect. While many have legitimate complaints it is ALSO true that any product will eventually form a group of users who will simply never be happy with what they produce.

Have a care, soulhuntre.

You are making too much sense. You are being both reasonable and thoughtful.

That can be terribly irritating - at least, to some.

Yeah, so I have noticed in the past. But then, the folks on Slashdot hate it when you interject facts into their anti-microsoft ranting too.

I agree with what you said soulhuntre but you are missing some of the facts. While people being "unhappy" doesn't constitute a complete failure of CL to deliver what is a substantial upgrade that is worth the price to many artists, it does to many others. You make it sound like people are unhappy simply because it's their nature. That isn't true for many (if not most) of us, we have legitimate problems with the core of 5. And it really doesn't matter if P5 sings and dances, it still isn't what was promised. It's just Poser4/ProPack with third-party plugins stapled onto the interface. I was very upbeat and positive about 5 when I first got it. As it became clear CL was just ignoring the fact that P4 problems weren't fixed, I became angry. I too stick up for Microsoft at times but they don't ignore serious problems or complaints about their software--they actually try to fix them. We were told Poser 4 problems would be fixed in 5; they weren't. Now we're being told Poser 5 problems would be fixed in 6. How do you expect those for whom 5 doesn't work well--or at all--to feel about that?

"You make it sound like people are unhappy simply because it's their nature."

For some people, that is completely true. No matter what CL ever does, no matter what Poser5 ever did they were going to be unhappy ... and be vocal about it.

I did NOT, however, say that was true for all, or even most, of those people with problems.

"it still isn't what was promised"

With few exceptions that impact how I and many others use the product I am not sure what was promised and not delivered. I am willing to learn of any substantial features that are not in the P5 as it stands now. Of course, even if it IS missing a major feature that I don't see, it is STILL a substantial upgrade that is to me and many worth the price.

And that's the bottom line >for me< (and I was always clear on who I was talking about). Poser is for me a tool and not a "cause". As a tool Poser5 is a significant one, and a fantastic upgrade over Poser4 in most of the areas I care about.

• Was Poser5 seriously buggy on release? Yes.
• Are there still bugs in Poser5? Yes, but the don't keep me from working. There are still bugs in Max and Lightwave, I use them anyway as well. No software is ever bug free.
• Are the Poser5 users who are still experiencing problems? Of course there are. And they have legitimate reasons to complain I am sure.

None of that changes that Poser5 as it sits is for me and others stable and a substantial increase in capability from Poser4.

"It's just Poser4/ProPack with third-party plugins stapled onto the interface."

Staples, glue, duct tape... whatever works. Honestly I would have been pretty unhappy to see CL wasting it's time re-inventing the wheel on this stuff.

• It is completely legitimate and reasonable to license a render engine.
• It is completely legitimate and reasonable to license a hair engine.
• It is completely legitimate and reasonable to license a facial morph engine.
• It is completely legitimate and reasonable to license a soft body physics engine.

What possible advantage would there have been for CL to re-create all that code? Life is too short by far. I don't see any serious problems with the integration of the renderer, hair, cloth and face room. Do they work well with models that weren't designed for them? Heck no. However they do a pretty good job given the limits of the Poser model library legacy that they had to deal with.

Hell, 99% of what I do with Max is via "third party plugins" that are basically stapled onto that interface.

"don't ignore serious problems or complaints about their software--they actually try to fix them"

Funny, I have seen serious and continuing work on the part of CL to fix the Poser5 bugs. There have been multiple service releases made widely available that have squashed a serious portion of the bug list. If there are any universal "show stopper" bugs in the current version, please let me know so I can avoid them.... cause I simply don' run into them.

Personally? I think this is a pretty good time for CL to start looking to Poser6. That's probably selfish of course cause Poser5 works fine for me, and I don't see any substantial increases in ability possible till a new version happens.

If someone wants to show me that major "promised" features of Poser5 are either non existent or seriously broken as the software stands now feel free to do so. Of course, I would also like to know what made them think those features were promised in the first place.

I am not speaking for or about "everyone". I am speaking for me and my experience. Poser5 has substantially increased my capabilities and my work efficiency... and that has directly contributed to my ability to handle work for clients and out internal products, more than covering the price.

OK how about "built from the ground up"? Clearly Poser 5 is NOT a new build. It IS Poser 4 (pro) with some bells and whistles. Now don't get me wrong, my Poser 5 works as stable as my Pro Pack, only slower. It is pure conservatite lazyness that prevents me from skipping PPP G The point is that Poser 5 was touted as new written software, and it wasn't. You can't blame people for not believing what other things they might hear then. PS: And I do NOT consider myself as member of either the MS or the CL bashing groups. I LOVE both programs, I even speak nicely of WinME (best OS I ever had prior to XP) but I won't shut my mouth either just to please :o)

Im still waiting for the new animals that were supposed to be in poser5

Oh but they'll be in Content Paradise soon... Or something like that ;o)

@ soulhuntre - Well stated. VERY well stated.

As for the rest......try Tums....or Mylanta......there are numerous over-the-counter medicines for curing belly-aching.

"OK how about "built from the ground up"?"

How about it. I don't particularly mind that. As a programmer I know that while sometimes tossing all the code out is a good idea - but on a huge/complex application that needs to retain compatibility and has a large user base it usually isn't the answer.

Starting over with a blank file for Poser5 would have been an insanely silly thing to do. Then again, I never saw anyone from CL say that they were going to do that.

"Clearly Poser 5 is NOT a new build. It IS Poser 4 (pro) with some bells and whistles."

• A new render engine with significant new abilities (ray tracing, transparency, reflections, micropoly displacement and so on)
• A full on new materials system
• A full soft body dynamics engine
• A full hair engine
• An entirely new set of abilities for facial modeling
• Dramatically improved library handling

Funny, those strike me as much, much more than a few "bells and whistles"... but maybe I am just easy to please.

"You can't blame people for not believing what other things they might hear then."

Well, I certainly can point out that some people didn't hear anything that actually was said, and are too caught up in the drama to see what is actually there... and that some of the promises they "heard" came only from inside their own desires.

So far the only promise I have seen that didn't happen is some free animal models and the mistaken idea that somehow CL promised to throw away years worth of development and code.

Not that bad in my mind.

BTW - NONE of what I have said here means or implies that there are no bugs in Poser 5, that it didn't have a lot of teething problems or that some people have completely valid reasons to be bitter/angry. Just so we are clear :)

"I did NOT, however, say that was true for all, or even most, of those people with problems I didn't say you did. "I am not sure what was promised and not delivered. I am willing to learn of any substantial features that are not in the P5 as it stands now" I wasn't talking about promised "features" not being delivered, I was talking about the promised fixes and the "brand new program." The new features are great but what good are they if the program doesn't run? Or the features slow it to an unuseable crawl? And I agree about the plugins...they shouldn't have redone them. The resentment of them stems from the fact that we were led to believe CL was working all this time (years!) on this great new program, come to find out they didn't work much on it at all except to do the stapling. "Funny, I have seen serious and continuing work on the part of CL to fix the Poser5 bugs" I said SERIOUS problems, not minor glitches in the material room. CL themselves have admitted they aren't going to work on the real problems until Poser 6. "If there are any universal "show stopper" bugs in the current version, please let me know so I can avoid them.... cause I simply don' run into them." Congrats, you're very lucky you don't run in to: Memory Leaks Poser refusing to release textures Lockups when it can't find a file Multiplying Magnets Random Crashes Bog-downs after a few hours of work...necessitating reboot. Jumping Cameras. These are just what I come up with at the moment. And they ALL have been in Poser since 1999. And they are ALL still there in Poser 5. In fact, some got worse.

Those 'bells and whistles' are built onto a house of cards. That's what irritates the heck out of us. Why tack on a fancy raytracer when the scenebuilding tools are still non-existent? What's the use of the Face Room if it is limited to characters you never use? You may not care for animals, but many of the rest of us DO. The best thing Poser 5 did was to rework the libraries system, and I even like most of the work on the parameter dials (except for the space it takes and the focus problems). But the rest of it just seems like slapped on addons to make the users go 'wow', hoping they won't notice the basic things that were not addressed. I find it insulting.

Given that I actually prefer P5 SR3 to Poser 4 I almost didn't ask this but... "A full soft body dynamics engine"? Do you mean the cloth room, or something much more interesting & useable that allows Poser characters to have "soft" or "fatty" parts pf their bodies (cheeks, bellies etc.) so that movement and/or gravity help give much more "reality" to animations? Because I've missed how to manage that if it's in place ;(

I swear, Here is a perfectly good topic and some ass has to go ruien it.

ruin it how exactly MM?

BTW, no new animals..that was the answer to that question re:p5 in the Q&A session. They said they had given us enough new figures.:(

Yeah, not an unexpected response but a sad one. AFAIK (I haven't checked) the existing P5 characters still have nitpick-type problems (IIRC poses or similar which complain they're for the wrong model, or not for the right model). DAZ3D appear to be, possibly, working on filling the gaps but at the cost of Millenium Animals we probably won't all be getting a fresh new menagerie. I'd love a whole slew of animals to have been included with P5 despite never having seen the promise first-hand, but don't believe that their lack makes Poser 5 (or the upgrade) expensive.