Attached Link: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/ghi-03.12.03-000/

Maybe Poser is not dead yet. ;P

Interesting...

well they kept that quiet, new company=some money to produce the next SR for poser5?

This has happened really fast. If everyone who uses Poser actually bought the software maybe Curious Labs would still be in business :( This is a little worrying and makes me wonder if Poser will continue or maybe they'll redesign it and if so how good will it be? - maybe they'll drop it all together? Or incorporate it into their Shade software? Software pirates killed Curious Labs - R.I.P I really don't like the sound of this - they could at least have let registered users know what was going on. Tony

bogwoppet I bought Poser5 & have used it exclusively for over a year now. Isn't Shade Mac only tho?

I just checked Shade, very little info on the program itself. They have demo, Mac and Windows. The gallery has some nice renders. It sounds like they bought CL to use thier contacts to sell Shade. So what is going to happen to Poser, is anyone's guess. I don't think pirates killed CL. They did it themselfs, not fixing P5 right in the first place, they lost a lot of sales.

Hi Circle, I wasn't pointing any fingers :) But, I know that there are many people using pirate copies of Poser 5 and that doesn't help us legal users or the companies producing the software. It's the same story for the music business too. Shade may well be only available for Mac - I honestly don't know but how difficult would a conversion be? Tony

I don't think pirates killed CL. One, it ain't dead yet. A buyout isn't death. Happens all the time in the business world. The article, near as I can, sounds optimistic about the future of Poser. Two, every software company has to deal with pirates, from Microsoft down to the merchants selling here at Rosity. It's part of the "business climate." Farmers have to deal with weather, truckers have to deal with gas prices, software makers have to deal with pirates. I'm not defending piracy, mind, I'm just saying that all the other software companies that haven't gone bankrupt are just as pirated as CL, if not more, so I don't see how you can lay the blame there. I wonder if this is why their web site was down for so long? I couldn't get in for days.

,

I think Curious Labs killed Curious Labs, with their disasterous release of Poser 5, the EULA controversy, their split with their biggest content supplier, and the way they pissed off most of the Poser-using community. I use Poser 4, and I use it specifically because I didn't want to upgrade to Poser 5 (I did look into it, but I decided against it for many, MANY reasons). I think blaming software pirates for Curious Labs' poor business choices and crappy public relations is a bit too simplistic. No doubt there is SOME blame to be placed there, but "pirates" didn't release a buggy, unstable code. bonni

I wonder if the "disastrous" release of Poser 5, the EULA controversy, the Content Paradise mess, and the rest were all a sign of trouble to come, and not a cause of it? Perhaps, unknown to us, they were already desperate for cash, and all that was an attempt to raise some much-needed capital?

boggwoppet, I have to agree with elizabyte. People have always pirated poser, but they are mainly the people who get it just to get, play with it for a month or so, and then move on to something else. Curious Labs killed themselves with a series of bad marketing/development/business decisions. If you can't make a feature work before your release, then it's better not to add that piece to the release.

Damn! e-frontier are the owners of Shade! http://shade.e-frontier.co.jp/en/index.html This could be a very good thing to happen. e-frontier even has an English version of the program available. Their rendering engine is miles ahead of anything in Poser.... People, this could be a very, very big thing for our community!!!! Glenn Souhtern (of Zbrush fame) reviewed the V5 package here: http://www.creative-3d.net/Shade.cfm Scope out some stuff done in shade: http://www.buichi.com/E/index_nf.html I think this is excellent news, and much more than just some business swallowing another one. e-frontier has been looking to get exposure and market share in the US/UK for some time now and this is probably how they're going to manage it. Mark my words. This rocks. I think I'll buy that buggy P5 now in hopes of getting some kind of freebie deal from e-frontier.

Appologies - I didn't intend to turn this post into a piracy debate. You may be right - CL may well have signed their own death warrant by releasing buggy software. And, there is no argument about the nonexistent after sales. My main concern is that when a company gets taken over, the software can often end up worse than it was to begin with (if that is possible in Poser's case). Only time will tell and I pray that Poser 6 & 7 & 8 will come along in due time. Tony

I think the best thing would be if the merged the "working" features of Poser into Shade. I've wanted Shade for years. But they haven't sold outside Japan. Their V7 release will be sold internationally. Shade's renderer is stupendous. If they added the figure/prop capability to it... It make me all shivery ;-)

I hate to see businesses fail, they might actually be happy to get rid of it though, I can only imagine the panic, headaches and stress after the controversy over P5 (some hate it, some refuse to buy it and the minority loves it). Maybe this new place will perk things back up. Is that modeling software expensive? Just went there and the price is in JPY

The big package is pricey. 174,800 Japanese Yen = 1,616.12 US Dollar 59,800 Japanese Yen = 552.885 US Dollar 17,800 Japanese Yen = 164.571 US Dollar 9,800 Japanese Yen = 90.60651 US Dollar

I've read about Shade in several CG magazines. Nothing but good reviews and praise. Pricey,but very,very popular in Japan...that's what most of the modelers (like Yamato)use to make their great products. Instead of worrying about who killed CL...I think Poser is in very good hands now. SWAMP

I think CL was pretty much all but dead before P5 was ever released and that the early release was a last desperate gasp at survival. Hopefully this purchase breathes new life into Poser, it would be sad if just when the market was expanding to two proggies with D|S imminent launch we were to lose Poser and be down to one again.

It may be in good hands technically, but I wonder if they have the vision of providing the community with a low cost (under $300) product. I can't afford to dish out $1000 for Poser 6.

ookami, I think they do. They've two of them already. This is a very positive event for us.

This looks.....very interesting. This bears watching. I am hopeful that we see something positive come from the new owners.

I've heard nothing but raves about Shade, this looks like it could be great news!

It seems to me that the companies who have purchaces the Metacreations products haven't figured out how to market or release these gem's properly. (Bryce, Painter 3D, Super Goo, Canoma ect.) are either not updated or at risk of dissapearing all together - Does anyone know how Carrara is doing?

Wow Egysys (the old owner of Curious Labs) closed its doors November 30th. The article seems to say that it closed down unexpectedly fast. Let's hope E-Frontier doesn't turn into another Corel. This can work 2 ways. It can be a very GOOD thing for Poser or a very BAD one. Time will tell. I'm definitely keeping an eye out. Who knows, I may even buy Poser 5 just to be sure to have the last?/latest release.

Attached Link: http://www.applelinks.com/articles/2003/11/20031106113927.shtml#119

I'm sure that Daz has the expertise and know hot to bring Daz studio in as a strong contender. They are releasing a realistic Beta version very soon. We all know that Daz is top notch and totally professional with their products. maybe the Poser spirit wants to go live with the creators of Victoria. cheerio lululee

Attached Link: HobbyHopper's Gallery

I've always thought of them as the Japanese equivalent of "Lightwave" or C4D. So you could see this like Newtek or C4d buying Poser5.

btw, we have a great Shade artist in the community here. Check out HobbyHopper's gallery!

Well well well..... Shade & Poser together. Verrrry interesting..... Believe me people, Poser has only just started on it's long, long journey. We're still watching the birth here. Poser will be around for a loooooooong time in one form or another. I've been on board since Poser 2 and I will still be when it's the equivalent of version 15. :] Fish

I think that from a Corporate stand point there should be a official statement right away from Curious Labs and E-Frontier before they both get bashed to hell here. I just checked the press release section of Curious Labs and they don't even have a press release up about sale. Maybe....E-Froniter will give away the cheap version of shade for free to everyone who owns Poser while we wait for Service Pack. One last thing I have to says and shut up....I hope E-Froniter understands that the reason most people buy poser is they don't want to spend 50 hours making a female or male model that doesn't look real...well that's why I use poser...I have 3d Max1 and Lightwave 5.6 but notice no upgrade here....I suck at modeling!

.

DAZ should release DAZ Studio beta ASAP, like tomorrow.

Interesting that E-on's E-Froniter press release is dated November 5, 2003. At least the Curious Labs web is back.

It could work out either way, it might be the best thing that ever happened to poser, or poser might disappear overnight. I am no fan of the way jap business works, if there is no low end competition for their product, the low end of their product line disappears quickly. I may cases, they may release a debugged version, which will also disappear quickly after the initial release. MUch depends on the contract of the buyout, conditions stated in it, and of course, we will never know what they were. The only thing we can be sure of, more bucks.

As for DAZ studio being competion for Poser, that will won't happen until their P.C. members have suffered, sorry debugged the Alfa Version that Daz are planning to inflict, sorry offer them.

Most of this is just speculation. Who knows what will actually end up happening? Watch and wait.

We live in hope. What really killed CL IMO was Avatar Lab and Mimic - diverting resources into niche products that no-one wanted instead of concentrating on the core market. Bad move.

I agree that we don't know what will happen, but "watch and wait" are ill-fated words. When Commodore went belly-up some years back, we Amiga users didn't just watch as the BoD screwed several million users. We proactively petitioned. Didn't accomplish anything (especially with meetings taking place in Bermuda, conveniently), but none of us were about to sit back and watch the only computer system that we had ever known and favored just be sold away into oblivion. How many Poser users are there? What would you do if E-Frontier just shelved it akin to what was done to Canoma (It's not coming back. When was the last/first version released? Almost four years ago?)? That would mean no more support, no more updates, no more versions. Poser would be dead. It is up to the Poser community to make it known that Poser is still a viable application with a large userbase and its loss would be devastating. This not only impacts users, but also third-party content creators like Daz (for now anyway), PoserWorld, RunDNA, and so on. Believe me, you can dream on about how long the current versions of Poser will sustain themselves if it is shelved, but it won't last forever. The Amiga eventually evaporated - although there are still users out there and a somewhat unorganized attempt at a new OS, there aren't many users left, and they have to deal with antiquated, nearly impossible to find, secondhand hardware, an OS that doesn't have the capabilities of a Palm Pilot, no real software, no support. My advice for the moment is to keep a keen eye on both the CL and E-Frontier web sites (as well as any other pertinent news). There are three courses here: shelving, incorporation, keeping the product alive. Let's see which course E-Frontier steers toward and try to adjust it if it is off course.

Rosehawk, Forgive me but I find your comment somewhat extreme. It has been well publicized that on it's initial release DAZ Studio will not be a complete product. It is known that it will likely be buggy, possibly have work flow issues, etc, etc. This will apply even when it first becomes available to non PC members. In fact, the whole point of releasing it at this stage is to maximize testing in various computer environments and, possibly, to give users the opportunity to influence it's development. Nobody who tries it and is disappointed can reasonably claim ignorance of the situation. It will be by personal choice, not by unpleasant surprise. And it won't cost them a cent to try. Contrast this to other companies who have released products saddled with unreasonable restrictions knowing full well that they are not ready for prime time. People paid good money only to become frustrated with the product. Insult was added to injury when shortly later others could share in their suffering for a far lower entrance fee. Neither situation is ideal but there is no question as to which I find more acceptable. It is perfectly fine to be sceptical or critical but one should always remain fair. - Jack

Well, I'm afraid that "watch and wait" is really about the only thing that most of us end-users CAN do.

One can petition CL, E-frontier, et al as much as one wishes; the final decisions are totally out of our hands.

I used to own an Amiga.

One thing that I believe: the demand for a "human simulation" program is out there. Someone will always come along to fill that need.

Hopefully, the need will be met by Poser. With, perhaps, some healthy competition from DAZ.

Blackhearted: Actually it's a Japanese company. The Shade program that they sell looks great - comparable to C4D and LW (in the same price range as well). Not sure of its full features, but have downloaded the version 6 demo to see what it can do. Alternatively, I'm wary of the "range" of products they sell. Seems very disjointed. One is a 3D app (Shade), the other a database, another typing tutor, another e-learning. But it seems that they are committed. There is already an announcement of a version 7 of Shade for international release (whereas v6 is sold in Japan only). Japanese business strategy is sometimes difficult to discern (owing to "Art of War" and "Book of Five Rings", I suppose). If they're in this just for the profit, we're doomed. If they have a commitment to making Poser their own and advancing it, expect wonderful things.

One thing that we, the individual users, can do: Buy stuff. Actually buy it. Buy the Poser software, don't steal it. Buy things in the marketplace here at RR (and elsewhere). Some people might not like this, but MONEY is the mother's milk of any business endeavor. One can cite all the tenets of ideals that one wishes. Capitalism rules the world. If the owners of Poser make money, then, they will stay in business. If end-users refuse to pay for the software, pirate it, and then steal other Poser-related products, the owners of Poser might then cut out on a bad investment. And I wouldn't blame them. Don't expect the labor of others to be handed out, free. Business is business. We all have to eat. And we all have a right to expect a return on our investments. Even CL has this right. Buy the program. Buy the stuff that the merchants here at RR produce. If you want to keep your favorite hobby going, support it. And support the individuals and corporate (what an EVIL word!) entities that make your hobby possible.

Japan is a hotbed of 3D work. Shade is one of many Japanese 3d applications for rendering/modeling. They do have quite a bit of low- and mid-range competition.

Uh? How can this possibly be BAD for Poser? It may or may not be good, but it is a future path - and there's not a lot bad that E-Frontier can actually still do to Poser that CL hadn't already achieved! CL were down to 1 programmer, reportedly a Mac one. So even if the reported 50% development in Egisys were true that's still only 2 programmers, 1 per platform at best :-) And the german one looks to be gone as of last week. SR4 is overdue, and was not scheduled to fix much. Poser 6 was not even to be started until AFTER SR4 was released, and even then - per the CEO - was only to be Poser 5 "fixes" for which CL proposed charging us all over again. And based on their skill level as demonstrated inh their recent releasing of Poser Artist (it's Poser 4.0, NOT Poser 4.03 even though .03 came out in the last century!!!), SR4 looked like a gonner already. No, Poser under CL was terminal if not already rigor mortis. E-Frontier can only go up. The only way down from this point would be to stop selling it entirely, and it appears they wouldn't have needed to spend a penny to do that as "EgiSys closed doors Nov 30", so that eventuality seems unlikely at least for now. So let's give them a chance to at least announce their intentions before we start the ritualistic R'osity Poser Forum roasting, plu-ease!!!!!!!!!!!

Just one small thing BH because I agree with most of what you say. The programmers, owners and people working at CL were in the beginning and towards the end, the same people who worked on Poser at Metacreations. So, following that logic (as they're one and the same team) if Metacreations had kept it and advanced it to Poser 5, it would still be the same as it is now. Because the same people did it. Check the list of credits for Poser 3, 4 and then for Poser 5 as a comparison some time. You might be surprised how many names are recurring. Also, Steve Cooper and Weinberg at CL are the same Steve Cooper and Weinberg from Metacreations. Mr. Weinberg being the original programmer and owner of Poser (1 and 2) before Metacreations messed up Poser 3 and released 4 as a bug fix for 3. Not picking on you, but Metacreations weren't quite as innocent as they seem. Seperately, not to hijack the thread I see the buyout of CL by E-Frontiers as a good thing. Personally I am exstaticly happy that Poser is out of the hands of CL (or hopefully is) and that a company with at least some programming ability has got hold of it. Shade is an excellent modelling package. If (and it's a big if) they fix Poser and integrate that more closely with Shade - (and by proxy Vue d'Esprit) releasing US/European versions of Shade I won't be sorry at all. The chances that they'll incorporate daffy tools into Poser when they already have a modelling/rendering package is unlikely. The chances that they'll continue to develop and support Poser are very high. The future is bright. CL is dead. Time to party.

layingback -- Well put. I agree completely.

maybe I haven't been paying attention; I didn't know CL was even in trouble. I DO remember the months leading up to the release of Poser 5, everyone wanted it RIGHT NOW, NO WAITING, a boatload of hysteria (y'all are much more restrained about Daz studio, btw..;), and I guess CL was getting this from all sides, and released it too soon. I'd sooner have them wait and put out a good, stable product (said as much at the time..;)..but noooooooo...;)
as many companies are acquired for doing well as doing poorly; I've been by the Shade site in the past, and yup, it's spendy..seen Hobbyhopper's stuff..he's been very supportive of me (why, I dunno..but why argue..;)
If it ever comes down to a petition, I'll sign yours if you'll sign Bryce's (and they really are on the ropes at the moment)

I would be happy if Poser would simply be brought up to date concerning it's memory system (aka "the leak") and it's display. A little hardware acceleration would work wonders on the programm. To me, Curious Labs has made me lose all confidence in Poser. I am waiting for DAZ Studio. DAZ has interest in their programm being good and selling more of their products along with this programm. I can't say the same for the company behind Shade. OK, they have their high-end-application and they have a connection to E-On. But what do they want with a programm aimed at illustrators and semi-professional animators? Don't get me wrong - I like using Poser (4) for illustrations - but I would never get the idea of using it for serious 3D-Animation. And Shade is not really a player in the big business outside of Japan. I do hope that E-Frontier will try to get Poser placed as an illustrators tool - and not try to change it into a high-end-application costing ten times the price of Poser 4.

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9436

Well, I spend my MONEY on Poser like a banshee and I don't even use it that often (do more modeling in C4D than anything else currently). I have Poser 4 PP and Poser 5 for both Mac and Windows - that's a good $1000+ invested in just the software. I buy from Daz regularly, have a PoserWorld subscription, and purchase from here occasionally as well. How much more do they need!? ;) I will make one correction: it is not always just making money, it is sometimes making ENOUGH money - especially when it pertains to a niche market - which Poser is. Back to Commodore and the Amiga. They were by no means a dying company with a failing product. The fall of their stock was caused by the BoD's premature decision to sell their shares and close shop (one department at a time - starting with marketing/advertising - now does that sound like a way to actually stay in business?). The head of the board wanted to retire with a nice large lump sum (many millions, IIRC). He had the final say and listened naught to any concerns by employees, users, or vendors. Thus the lives of niche market products. Only if Poser were ridiculously successful would its owners have no recourse but to invest more energy into it. CL does deserve a good part of the blame. In a moment of desparation to make that much needed profit, they fumbled by releasing a new version (somes years too late, might I mention) too early, with too many promises, and too many disappointments. What were they doing for three years? Obviously not working on actually improving Poser 4 and PP to a new level (by improving features, irradicating insipid bugs, and so on). Instead they bull rushed a barely fixed version out with ill-fitted addons. Extremely unwise move. It has already been mentioned: no competition is a bad thing. Poser had no comparable competition. CL, therefore, had no incentives to improve the product. D|S should have been thought up and release a year ago. That would've woke up CL just in time.

Joerg. What would E-Frontiers want with Poser? It's not just a toy for hobby and amateur users. It's used in main industry (media, legal, medical) A better question would be. Why should they develop their own human based software or plugin (like 3DSMax) when they can buy one that has a large and diverse userbase and already does everything they need with human models? Better to buy it, clean it up, develop an import plugin or integrate it with Shade and hit all the markets with a highly capable modelling and animation package. Just speculation of course, but... seems more sensible than "buy it, kill it". Yes, unfortunately the price probably will go up. But considering how much many people claim to spend in the store here each month I don't think it's "out of reach" of too many users. If it is rather expensive then there's always the prospect of cough saving up for it? :)