Hi, I'm just starting up a poser based comic and I wanted to get some constructive criticism from the folks here so as to improve my work in future. So I'm posting a couple of my first pages for you all to go to work on. Caveat: Since this is a comic, I'm definitely facing a trade off between expediency and beauty. I realize not all my panels are going to be exemplary works of art, but in order to produce a story (which is the main thing) in a reasonable amount of time, I can't really afford to spend days on each panel. Therefore, I'm trying to do as little postwork as possible, and may need to take shortcuts, or settle for less than optimal results in some cases. Don't worry, there will be panels that get special attention, and I'll post some of those for serious critiquing when I do. So again my main emphasis is effectively conveying the story, I'd like to do so in as attractive a way as possible also. So with that in mind, I'm really interested in being shown glaring errors, or things that could be done better in a general way so that my future panels look better. Also I realize these two panels arent' exactly the most exciting things you'll ever see, but they're necessary to establish some character, plot and that kind of thing. Anyway, have at it, I'll appreciate any and all feedback as long as its even remotely thoughtful. Thanks in advance, Unzipped

Here's page 3.

Overall, both pages are well layed out and reasonably clear. The things I don't like are the lighting of the model's face on the first page. It looks too dark for the overall lighting situation. The second page is lacking ground shadows, or at least, if they are there, they are far too indistinct. Again, the faces look too dark.

The close-up shot on the second page looks a bit "fish eyed". Use a higher camera focal length. I think the default setting for the face camera is 25mm, move it up to 80mm will flatten out the faces a bit.

Unz: Hmm..not so sure you should actually go for expediency here. If you are trying to make a really good comic, you should perhaps go ahead and spend the time on each and every frame until it's right - and don't use any shortcuts. However - are you on some kind of deadline? Is this for a class or client? My point here is that if you do sort of gloss over the panels you don't think you have the time for, and then spend more time on the ones you think require 'special attention', you are going to have a discontinuity of style that the reader may find jarring. So, I suggest that you develop a flow and apply that flow to each and every panel - perhaps set up some actions in photoshop that you can apply to every panel as you go, that unifies the look and feel of each; that way, even if you spend more time on one panel relative to another, you will still be keeping the overall look and feel consistent. But I think you have a great start - the flow between each scene/panel works well, and you don't need to apologize for the need to set up the character with some backstory. And I think your character expressions really convey a lot - that's really good work. I would agree with Sam about the lighting; more dramatic or distinct lighting would help. However, I don't understand why the two characters are outside; it look like a meeting with her boss, and that seems to be like it should be in an office or something. But I'm sure that will come clear later! just some thoughts, Jack

I agree with Sam - the lighting on the first page makes the character's face look dirty - though I like her defeated expressions.

This is all great stuff here, thanks for the insights. Let me clarify a couple of things that have been brought up.

1. The first page actually does occur inside an office, that plant in the background is a potted one. The page prior to that one establishes the setting a bit better (you more clearly see the walls, the desk, etc.). I probably need to darken my marble texture on the walls, and as will be dicsussed further, need to work on lighting more.
2. By expediency I'm not saying I want to throw up junk most of the time and really bear down on the important panels. I don't plan on glossing over any single frame, they all have a purpose and a mental image that I won't compromise on, there just comes a point where I feel if I haven't nailed it, I'll settle for around 97.5% of what I have in my head once it looks like 100% will cost me another ten hours. I do want to achieve an overall high quality feel, look and approach, and then maybe go a few extra miles with key paenels. I've got a decent workflow down which I'm using for all the shots that's got me to this point, it can always be improved on of course. What I do mean is that I really want to avoid things like painting individual hair strands or clothing wrinkles on every frame - high detailed high custom labor intensive type postwork, things that don't really lend themselves to being wrapped up in a nice photoshop action or filter. Believe me, if there was a "make hair look better" action, I'd use it on everything. I want to achieve quality processes and results that are highly reproducable, and then punch up the details when its really necessary. Does that make sense?

Responses to the critiques so far:

1. Fish eyed close ups - bingo, you nailed it. Here's where a shortcut came back to bite me. For most shots I used the dolly cam at 100 focal. But on the second page the 2 close ups were with the face cam because I got lazy and didn't want to hassle with repositioning dolly (or aux, or main). I actually set the focal to 35 from 25, but JV is right, it's still fish eyed. I'll definitely give 80 a try in future. Great advice.

2. The lighting - bingo again. This is tough because I've been struggling with lighting in general for a few months now. I've read Dr. Geep's tutorials a few times (looks like I'll review them again), messed around with RNDA light sets, DAZ complex global lighting (overkill), made my own, all sorts of things. Some times I manage to pull off great lighting (well for me anyway), and sometimes I need to take a walk after particularly grievous renders. In these I definitely was going for UNdramatic lighting - if everything is lit dramatically, the truly dramatic scenes aren't highlighted quite as much - there's really nothing dramatic about the lighting in an office, and that's the sort of "reality" I'm hoping to achieve. Basically these are straight interior shots, so these represent the best of my hamhanded approaches to interior lighting to date. I figure, logically, that I place the light sources where the lights would actually be, fiddle with the color, intensity, shadows and that should get me "realistic" lighting for the room. That's pretty much what I've done here.

It's funny because my first impulse was to say the lighting is too bright in general, while all the comments so far have been that it's actually too dark, at least in relation to the faces. Shows how much I've got to learn. Anyway, maybe my current normal every day interior lighting approach isn't quite there yet, so more advice in this department would only help. On test renders I realized Maggie's face was drastically underlit, so I did make another light and pointed it at her face to help out - should I take this approach to all the figures? I guess the problem is that the lighting in these is too bright in general, and not bright enough where it needs to be. Does that sound about right?

1. The shadows - probably a side effect of the lighting troubles. There are shadows, even on the floor, but they are definitely too faint on the floor. I think it's probably mainly due to the texture/highlight/reflection on the floor being to bright and washing out the shadows (I was going for a polished marble tile effect, and didn't quite get it - I just couldn't get the right gloss on the floor), if you look at the wall behind them you can more clearly see shadows. I used a map of 1024 and a setting of .6 for the shadows on the main light, and it still looks a bit jagged, perhaps I need to dial that one up more.

Anyway, as I said this is great feedback, I really appreciate it. If people have follow ups or there are more things to be said I'd love to hear them.

Thanks again,

Unzipped

Just a minor point, I hope you don't consider it nit-picking. Check your spelling. I don't know if it was a typo or what, but "attorney" is the way to spell the word. I used to do proofreading at a job I held at one time. Spelling is an important part of an overall impression.

There are no nitpicks. You're darn right. I don't know how that U got in there, although I have noticed my typing has not been so good of late, many a fat fingering these last few days. Thanks for that, I'll definitely edit it. Too bad there's not spellchecker integrated into Photoshop eh? Any comments on the visuals?

unzipped - create your own global lighting. It's easy enough to use once you build it, and it will render fairly quickly if you don't go crazy with lots of shadows. It's worth experimenting to find the best settings for your own use. I generally use between 10 and 20 low intensity infinite lights with all the shadows off, except for one near the top of the "light ball". This one, I usually set the shadow map at 2048. If you spread the whole of them around you'll get good even lighting useful for most renders. Another tip for good ground shadows is to make sure your floor has its own shadows switched off.

My followup - this is something I'd want to see - the characters you've shown so far are interesting (esp. the young lady on page 1) and I'm curious to see what happens to them next.

good looking comic. here are my recommendations; 1.the first page looks like its outside, that wall looks like a sky. you need a more toned down, smaller texture so it looks like a wall and not clouds. 2.the second page shots need a ceiling. without it, it gives an appearance of the scene "floating". 3.making a comic is a huge investment of time and energy. you want to make sure that when you finish you're happy with the results. I would go into a pre-production period and work out issues like lighting and cameras. do a bunch of test renders and really flesh out your lighting and cameras. if you put the in the time in a low pressure test environment your results will be much better when you're rendering for real.

I think you have a really great start. You have a few lighting and shadow issues, but nothing too distracting. I would use a different type of text box and font though. The shadow on the box is a little distracting. The boxes are a little bit too big as well. For the font I would pick something a little more compact like Franklin or Impact. Also in frames with only internal monolog, perhaps the thoughts scripted in a box at the top would be better than a thought bubble. Hope this helps :)

I guess I should have given a bit more context from the start, but this comic is just something I'm doing because I think I have a story to tell, I enjoy rendering with Poser (and doing some postwork in Photoshop), and a few people have expressed interest in hearing/seeing it. I'm not getting paid (or asking to be paid or planning on ever being paid), there's no assignment or deadline. So the whole thing is really a no pressure environment for me. It's as much about the journey as anything else - I'm doing this to improve my digital artistry and storytelling abilities as well as seeing if I have anything to say. Hopefully a couple of people will find it entertaining or interesting into the bargain.

Now on to the good stuff:

Sam, I'll give creating my own global lighting a go in my next page - and I do have shadows off for the floor in these.

Zarabanda, If/when I use that wall prop again in future, I'll definitely redo the texture and darken the base color. I hear you about the ceiling, but I figured adding a ceiling would have made my lighting life even harder than it already was - what's your approach to lighting when using a completely enclosed space? Also I've done a ton (well at least four months or so) of pre-production work in several other areas (textures, sets, props, faces, morph settings, and so on), and have probably short changed lighting a bit. Maybe I got a bit impatient to get started (the story is constantly writing itself in my head, but I can't get the visuals together quick enough it seems), but I figured I'd start generating the pages and smooth out the rough edges as I go along, it just felt like it was time to start putting things together and seeing some results.

About the cameras - how much room for variation is there really? It seems all there is is positioning and focal adjustment - is there something else I'm missing? I understand having multiple cameras around to help with posing and assembling a scene, but as far as actually rendering is it really valuable to have lots of different cameras? Obviously I haven't really experimented with it too much as I couldn't find a real use for it, so any info here would be enlightening.

PapaBlueMarlin - You're right about the drop shadows, I'll either shrink them or drop them completely. Would you go with a different shape for the speech boxes? I guess I just sort of defaulted my approximation of standard speech/thought bubbles. What have you or others used that's worked? Would square make more sense - elipses seem to waste space needlessly. I have a problem with getting rid of the thought bubbles - though I don't plan on going to straight narrative much, I still like to reserve unattached square boxes for that - would people get to confused if I used squares for everything?

For the text, again I just defaulted to standard comic "LetterOMatic". I doubt I'd use impact as it's not neutral enough - it's a more emphatic font - but I'll look into something more narrow, and also try reducing the font size some. If you noticed I went from 16 in the first page, to 12 in the second. I think I'll give 10 a try and see if it's legible.

Again you guys are great, I really appreciate the insights - keep them comming if you've got more.

Thanks again,

Unzipped

PS. If anyone here is actually interested in continuing on with seeing the story unfold (fingers crossed) you can email me at shulkophile@yahoo.com and I'll tell you more about it. I'm not trying to advertise here or anything like that, I'm really just after artistic criticism so I don't want to comment more about the story aspects here.

I think that the Comic strip is well done. Two suggest invest in better skin textures, and also higher grade eyes. I really like the cartoon balloons, they are well placed. Keep us posted.

Actually, I think some comics vary the shape of the text boxes. Sometimes a circle, sometimes a rectangle, and sometimes a spatter pattern. The elipses are fine in moderation. Squares for everything could get just as boring which is why I suggest that you experiment with different shapes and possibly box colors to convey different moods. Too much of one type may dominate the frame. An occasional thought bubble is fine. Narrative is sometimes distinguished from thoughts by the color of the box, parentheses, or italics. Next time you're at the store, try thumbing through a comic book and pay attention to things like the text boxes and some changes in perspective. Also pay attention to the color scheme and see if it matches well with the story. Good Luck, you're off to a really great start.

Visual comments: Maybe a little more, as was mentioned in the first page, to establish indoors location. As a comic, perhaps a few touches of brighter color here and there, unless a more neutral atmosphere is what you wanted. If that's supposed to be a secretary, or reception desk in the second page, it seems too bare. No phones,papers, pens etc., maybe even a small plant, what you might call set dressing. Set dressing can add a lot to mood or locations. That could go for any scene. I used to do a bit of stage managing at one time, too. I applaud you for your ambitious undertaking, though. It's coming along nicely.

All I have right now are the DAZ hi res texture/eye sets. Can anyone recommend some better ones? I've looked at some of the ones people often mention, and honestly I can't see that they're much better than the DAZ ones I already have - so any suggestions would help. The reception desk is a bit bare - I was going for sparse, but you're right it is a bit too sparse. There actually is a phone there it's just obscured by one of the characters - but I definitely should have had a few pens lying around at least. Again, great input - thanks Unzipped

Unzipped, you bring up some excellent points. I have experimented quite a bit with using sets in poser and creating comic strips, although I've never been inspired to sit down and actually make one the right way. let me share some of my hard gained insights; 1.Sets in poser are a nightmare. Posing multiple figures is hard enough, but when you add dozens of props to create a realistic looking scene, it quickly becomes a headache. Besides rapidly depleting memory, full scenes tend to become very cramped and maneuvering the camera without entering the collision of a scene object becomes quite a chore. Also, a set that looks good from one angle may look crappy from another. 2.Poser has a funny way of conforming to many real world principles, what works in real life often works in poser. When designing sets, take a page from hollywood. You never want a set to have more than two walls, that way with two walls missing you have plenty of room for different camera angles. If each wall can be adjusted separately, you can switch between hiding different walls in order to get an unlimited number of angles. 3.Because creating and working with sets is such a pain, my preferred method is to build a set first. Then set the camera up from a variety of angles, and save each one in a camera library folder. Then I render from each angle and save the render, then import the rendered background into poser. This uses a tiny fraction of the memory and you have none of the collision issues. And its virtually indistinguishable from rendering the character in the scene. Try it and you'll see what I mean.

Most of what I have to say has been said. I agree with whoever it was about the shadow on the speech balloons, they're way too fat, actually I would completely lose them, the text is also very big actually I think the text (and speech bubbles) takes up too much space. I don't do comics myself, but I'll point you to an example with varying speech/text balloons and boxes that I think works great, right HERE Granted, the author calls it a "graphic novel" and not a webcomic, I'm not sure of the difference, but ok, Sadie is certainly not FUNNY, so it may be the reason why it's not a "comic"... dunno. It also uses a photoshop filter to make it look less like renders, but that's a choice to make, what style you prefer :o)

Good insights Zarabanda. I actually do make my sets first and save them as pz3s before I ever put a character down - sometimes it gets me into trouble with scaling and stuff (I try and use Dr. Geeps scaling technique, but it seems not all the prop/figure makers do so there's always minor adjustments) but it at lest gives me a good base to work from - it also makes them reusable :). I've definitely run into the constriction thing, it is tricky, and I'll follow your advice about hiding walls when necessary (that still doesn't answer my question about the ceiling in relation to the lighting however). As far as rendering over a background, I'm afraid I'll lose correct shadows - and I've already got enough shadow problems. Also it seems it would make it more difficult for the figures to interact with things in the environment - I suppose its a matter of carefully selecting what gets put in the background and what stays in the actual poser environment. I might give that a try. ernyoka1 - I've followed that link before when you've posted it in other threads, that is good stuff. I think I'm going to keep my renders "cleaner" in the finished product except as special effects/special occasions demand different treatment. But I do like the text bubbles used, as I figured a more rectangular shape is much more space efficient - I'll make myself a set of rectangular text areas and some "spikey" ones for yelling (without the drop shadows) and try it out. I'll definitely reduce the size of my text - the text areas are truly taking up too much space. Oh yeah, Sam I did mess around with making my own "global" light set last night, and it seems like it will be a very useful thing once I get the hang of it. I think I ended up with about 14 minor lights and one Main light, with the minors set at an intensity of 13 (just to start with). It definitely gives a more well rounded lighting effect, but I think I may need to tone down the minor lights as it seems I've lost a lot of the shadow detail on the figure itself - the current setting makes things look a little too washed out or flat. Did anyone else have any comments or suggestions about the textures? Like I said, I haven't really seen better myself, so if I'm missing out on something great it would be good to know. If you all don't mind I'll post up my next page sometime later in the week for more critiquing to see if I've made any progress. Again, thanks very, very much for all the insights, they've been extremely useful (and kind). Unzipped

Your set/environment issue might be alleviated by creating the scenes beforehand and saving the pz3 file to be opened and modified again depending upon what you want to depict in that setting.