So a filter and a plugin isn't an object other than a fractal? I think we need to clear that up before we vote.

• So a filter and a plugin isn't an object other than a fractal?

It seems so. A filter effect is different from including a poser figure or a cute kitten... (Sorry Maria...)

How so? Both are additions to the fractal that weren't created by the generator.

Yes, but do you see a difference between those two kind of add-ons? I do, btw.

So certain add-ons are allowed, and certain ones aren't? Do you see my point? That's different standards.

Different standards for different kind of add-ons... That's only natural.

So lets define them clearly and vote.

No more layer merge modes. No fbm. No Celtic knots. No transformations. No external gradients in Apo. All add-ons? Better to allow more rather than less!

I don't think splitting those hairs really matter. Effects are way different than objects added to an image, and if effects aren't allowed then you do indeed get into layer merge modes...that's an add on too despite what program you use to do it. The vote could simply be to have the freedom to post fractal images as we used to or to keep the added guidelines that we have now. I can't believe the majority of artists here don't want the freedom to post what they create using fractals. Art is forever evolving and fractal/digital art is no different. I always thought there was a certain freedom of expression inherent in the artistic community and as art evolved artists embraced those changes...went beyond the bounds. How can you possibly put all these boundaries/rules on vision and imagination...it stifles creation.

There is another kind of post processing that is used here. I'm talking about people who add ... POEMS! to their work.. Hey people that poem is not a fractal! And don't get me started on those descriptive titles! OK I'll shut up now.

LOL!! Oh, please tell us more!

I don't know, I had stopped posting here for a few month's when that rule was implemented? I should be asking you why you did it in the first place. This arguement never seems to die. If this isn't clearly defined and the line drawn in the sand, then this is going to happen again in a month or two from now. This needs to be finished, right here, right now. Both this arguement and the hot 20 have gone on far longer than they should have. Make a decision and lets vote on it so that this will forever be ended.

I am guilty of adding a poem too... Like this urchin guy... BTW - working with the mouse instead of using the keyboard exclusively - allowed or not?

I say anything that isn't made using a graphics tablet shouldn't be allowed. After all it's the closest thing to a pen, pencil or brush etc and we are making 'art' aren't we? ;O)

No decision will ever be final. New software will be created. A different mix of people will join and leave the Renderosity community. Change happens. I vote for more. More diversity! Use the thumbnails to pick and choose. Filter to your heart's content.

Maybe there should be a choice in the Genre: drop down list during uploading to specify "No Post-Processing".

Seems the bulk of the comments want that. My vote here and now is drop all restrictions in the gallery. Let people post any way they want. If people want to post pure images, they can do that. If people want postworked images in any way, they can do that.

Don't decide too early. I count 20 different posters to this thread, but not all posted some kind of vote. But we have a lot more artists in the fractal gallery...

This is a tremendously important decision that affects posts in huge ways, but judging by all the wise cracks, people aren't taking it serious. They want to make a joke out of it, I don't care anymore. I'm done with it. All I ask is for people to never make another thread about this again, it's really getting sickening to see the division, and if they bring it up, then that's division also, which is just as bad.

Well, looks like we are going at it again. ;)) I have noticed that only a minority of people who post to this gallery have made any comments or expressed their opinions. Andreas said: "I was happy with this gallery before someone became unhappy with fractal/poser mixes. I could accept this kind of images even if I never would create such images. I do not know how many complained about the mix. And I would like to know the number of fractal artists here. Perhaps we all (or nearly all) were happy without the strict guidelines (are guidelines rules and laws? Or only helpers for decisions?). I would like to keep the freedom we had before..." I agree 100%. I never had any complaints about the mix of figures or animals or poems. Who are the complainers and why aren't they speaking up now? I believe we let freedom of expression prevail/no strict guidelines, or do like I stated in my earlier post above. Marion

I think from now on I had better simply post to "other apps" and be done with it. Mike

My goodness, there so many different discussions here, it's hard to tell what's what anymore!! I agree with Marion's comments. I was happy with things before complaints brought these new restrictions. As to post processing, a touch of sharpening, color contrast, gamma correction, all these can take a nice image and turn it into a fabulous image. I don't agree that it is just to cover up an inadequate piece of art. Those who do not have ultra fractal and work with flames in PSP or PS like to create some kind of background if they don't want a plain black background. According to the new rules, the flame is focus of the image, and the background and/or framing only enhances the image. If artists are to be restricted and constricted, it seems to me to put a real damper on their enthusiasm, at least for posting here in the fractal gallery. No offense taken, Andreas. :) I deleted all the picture tube images from my gallery except for one. I enjoyed it for a while, but came to realize that the source of the tubes can't be verified, so I haven't used them lately. I'll abide by whatever rules y'all decide to make. If pixies and fairies and kittens aren't fractal, then I'll be posting more in MM and other galleries here at Renderosity, as it's really left a bitter taste in my mouth to see all this bickering going on. This used to be a much happier place. I have enough on my plate in my personal life without feeling like I am being stifled and can't place an image that I thought was 80 or 90% fractal in the gallery that has been my comfy home for over 2 years now. This hobby is one of the few things that brings me any pleasure these days, and it saddens me that things have changed so much. I'll go along quietly once the decisions are made, but I don't think it will be quite as much fun anymore. This gallery has been my cozy haven for so long and I am a tad uncomfortable at having to venture out into unknown territority. C'est la vie.

Since i'm one of those peolple who posted images with other things than fractals i feel the need to say this.I understand that there where many complaints about that and that the rules had to be redefined. Altough I think that my images do belong in this gallery I will post most if not all of my images to the mixed medium gallery.I want to be free in my creations and I don't want my imagination to be limited. I liked this gallery and i thought I contributed something nice to it but since the rules changed that means the majority does not feel that way. I want to focus on creation and ,I don't want to think will this be allowed or not while doing that,I takes away some of my pleasure when creating my images and that is the main reason why i'm doing this. So I will post them in mixed medium because that's the way i want them to be. I love fractals so i still will come over to check out some of the beautiful pure fractal composition from all of you. Later,we still cool,and don't forget the software is the tool to create it's not about the software but about what you have craeted and the pleasure while doing that.IMO.

I presume everybody knows by now just how divisive a topic like this is. How it takes away from any enjoyment of the work and puts each render through some fascist meatgrinder of prohibitions. Damn, does anybody really want to work with that amount of angst over their shoulder prejudging their work? PostWork aside-- if you don't like it don't do it-- if it's forbidden, I will simply lie about it. There 8is the option of a very simple rule-- a fractal for the purposes of this gallery is a work whose predominant percentage was rendered in a Fractal generating program. Period. If there's a poem, so what, it isn't going to take up over 50% of the fractal, if it does, put it somewhere else. Likewise with those creation in Vue and Bryce. At some point we have to decide whether we want to die in the sterile gettho of purity or open up to the growth and fertility of Fractals as a real art form-- capable of change and evolution. Them's my thoughts and I have a gallery pretty evenly divided between Fractal and Poser and have-- up till now, had no problem knowing which went where. Queri AKA Emily

What a long standing discussion and each time the different types of artists come together on fractal definitions, differences, purism or not purism I learn new things. It's one of the things that I have always enjoyed about this forum. Explanations on how colouring within fractal generators work, insight into other artists preferences, drivers, creative processes... aside from some bits of frustration this is a pretty cool thread. It was not really so long ago that we did not have our own forum or gallery here! How excited we all were to get it! Why not have one rule? and have that rule called "inclusion" or "expansion"? Yes, that puts us back to the way we were before the rules. Arguments abounded back then too - approximately one good one every 4 to 6 months :) You cannot have a decent community without passionate discussions and differences! Especially an artistic/creative community. Is it not the passions and differences that help drive us? inspire us? light the proverbial fire under our butts? I really hate the thoughts of anyone turning their back on this community. There is so much here that is worthwhile! Lets celebrate and enjoy our differences.

Marion said "Who are the complainers and why aren't they speaking up now?" I was one of those complainers, maybe the main one. I have been very reluctant to jump into this with both feet because I experienced some real ugliness the last time around, coming from me and getting it back. Nothing about this place was worth that and I don't want to go through it again. I enjoy a good healthy discussion, like firefly has described above. I'll make another attempt: I was delighted to see the rules. I think that the fractal gallery has become more interesting as a result of the rules and I think that they should stay. I still see plenty of mixed medium images in the fractal gallery and I think they are fine there. I can handle the gray areas. Before the rules though there were some blatant non-gray area images showing up in the fractal gallery. I can think of one specific image, from one of the more controversial artists here, that was a Bryce image, plain and simple. It was a desk or vanity from the Bryce free stuff area that had a flame mapped on to the drawers. This same artist was kicking out one image after another like this and putting them into the fractal gallery. On top of that he was getting a lot of praise for his Bryce images in the fractal gallery. I'll be honest, I felt like I was being cheated. As you know, I like to build abstract scenes with UF and here this guy was pulling stuff from the Bryce free stuff area, mapping a half assed flame on it and getting high praise for it in the fractal gallery. That bugged me. Right or wrong, it bugged me so I complained. That's just one example. Renderosity has provided galleries for Poser, Bryce and mixed medium images and that's where those images belong. The hair splitting gray area images should be left up to the artist to place where he or she thinks that they should go. I think BringItIn is a gray area. I guess that's the trouble. Someone else might think that mapping a flame on to a desk is also a gray area. Keith

I brought up the poems and I was actually kidding about it. Also, my vote would be that if a fractal program was used at all then it should be allowed in the gallery. Also, if a program like Bryce is used but the focus of the image is clearly something algorithmically generated, it should also be allowed.

A fractal is a geometric pattern that is repeated at ever smaller scales to produce irregular shapes and surfaces that cannot be represented by classical geometry. Fractals are used especially in computer modeling of irregular patterns and structures in nature. A fractal can be made by various types of programs, not only generated by Ultra Fractal, Fractal Explorer etc. also with Bryce you are able to make irregular shapes which we gather under the name of being a fractal. Some of us aren't really happy with the outcome, and make different kind of designs with these fractals, using Photoshop, Painter or equivalent. As we are all fractal artists, we belong to this fractal community and are very creative with our designs. So no matter what we do to flourish up our designs, we do still belong in here and are able to upload our designs into this community. As programs become more complicated, and we are able to make designs which could in the end look like something as if it is NOT made with a fractal program, we surely love to stay in this community, were we are able to upload our art. So what if we ad some poser images, or do some pre-processing in adding a picture to our designs, the design will always be a fractal to start with. So what if somebody stands up and thinks everything else than what he/she produces on his/her screen trash, he/she may find 20% of the designers who stand by his/her opinion, then the moderator makes rules, and at the end the other 80% are unhappy. Then all of a sudden this same person stands up and 'Bring In' something else added to his program, and wonders why it isn't been seen as a fractal. Let's get everything back as it was before there were these guidelines, everyone was more happier, and more creative, it all didn't work in the first place. What are rules in a fractal community if even the moderator doesn't obey them. Yes, he can say, that in a fractal contest the rules cannot be changed, after the contest is active, but wasn't he the one who made these rules of something being a fractal or not, and then has a contest? All of a sudden, the rules didn't seem to bother him nomore, he accepted mixed media designs. So his violation of these rules made up by himself, establishes this discussion. So we will have it back to the old again, and enjoy everyones contribution to their expression of art, it's up to he artist himself whether something is called a mixed media, fractal or anything else. No restrictions or rules, just do what we all do, having fun sharing our approaches of designs, with the basics of a fractal. Have a nice week, Harmen

Applaus, Harmen...

Thanks everyone for expressing your views, and keeping this discussion going. Unfortunately, there are a lot of members who have not spoken up here, and I know some never even peek into the forum. Barbara and I are working on setting up an anonymous vote, as we would like to get as many involved in this as possible. It is the opinions of the members that count. The rules came about in answer to complaints, as it is our job to do our best for the Community. We tried what we thought was the best possible solution, and did in fact get some positive feedback on it. Maybe it wasn't the majority, we may never know for sure, but hey we gave it a shot. Barbara and I only want to do what's best for the Community, and that is all I've ever tried to do from the day I started here. Thanks, Nick

Fair enough, Nick. I won't have a problem abiding by the result of a vote. Matt.

Hi Nick, what about telling us how many complaints or complaining artists there were and how many different artists have posted more than e.g. three images in the fractal gallery? The second part should be answered easiest via SQL... Regards, Andreas

Thanks Keith for stating that you were one who complained. I understand your complaint and know who you speak of. Most of us know. I'll go along with the results of the voting. And I too, would like to know just how many complaints there really were. It seems that if the complaints were from a minority of the artists here, they could have been handled in such a way as to prevent such an uproar of changing rules and restrictions. Oh well, enough said. Marion

I don't think the amount of complaints matter now do they? Really? What matters is that a large, knowledgeable and reasonably "nice" (ahem) threaded discussion has ensued and is resulting in the forum going to vote on a matter near and dear to them This same argument will surface again in a few months (I'd be almost disappointed if it didn't) in spite of the voting. But you know what? At the end of the day we are lucky to be heard and considered. This is still a pretty nice place to be. I also think that it's pretty cool that we can set rules, learn that maybe our original thoughts/reasonings weren't all that we'd hoped and reset the rules. Hope you all have a great day :)

Firefly---If the number of complaints doesn't matter, then there would be no need for this to even go to a vote, IMO. The fact that this has become such a hot topic implies that there were LOTS of complaints. That is why I wish to know the number of complaints. Like I said above, if there were only a few, say 3 or 4 out of all the artists here, it seems it could have been handled in such a way that this would not have become the hot topic it is at present. Marion

I would like to feel comfortable here as an artist and not only as attendee of a discussion workshop...

Hi everybody, I haven't recently contributed to the gallery and to this thread yet but I would like to say that to put a border between what is fractal and what is not is an almost impossible job. Some have talked about softwares, plugins, etc. If you consider that most CG softwares and their plug-ins, add-ons, etc. always use maths and often fractal maths, this fight is irrelevant. The only difference between, let's say Bryce, or Zbrush, or Painter brush engine, Redfields, etc. and UF, Xenodream, etc. is that fractal generators claim their origin and the other ones usually don't. In this last case, how it is programmed is users' last concern. What they care about are the aesthetical results. But this is also what explains that often you will get the fractal effects from a lot of softwares. Personnally, I am a person who likes her creative freedom and nobody will succeed to put me in a can I don't want. Rules are the worst enemies of creation and invention. I feel myself enough creative to program my own stuff in UF. But I will also post-process if the job is more easily or more quickly done in another software. I don't reinvent the wheel when I know it exists. And as said, there is no fractal purity. Why I should care about it? But I also consider I have enough judgment to know where to post my images. Presently my gallery outside photographies is almost empty. But I used to have some in the 2D gallery and some in the fractal one. When I had doubts, the 2D what my choice. Personnally, I don't like being punished and constrained because some people lacked judgment. Miche D. returning to lurkdom.

There is a difference between painting a fine portrait of a canine companion and painting a table full of dogs cheating at poker. I know that some people think paintings of Elvis on black velvet are fine art and hang them in their parlors. There is just no accounting for artistic tastes. That said, I must tell you that some years ago I was thrilled to find Renderosity with a lively and engaging Fractal Gallery, whose members welcomed me and invited me to keep posting. I know I wasn't very good then, and didn't even know how to make a simple frame, but the warmth and encouragement were there. Everyone who could open a fractal generator was happily welcomed. I, too, felt some distress at finding PSP tubes and Bryce primitives mapped with oversaturated fractal images, and especially distressed to find them highly praised and voted into the Hot20, until I saw who was doing the voting and praising. Mostly these images were from fractal newbies who brought their fan clubs with them from other genre, and those fans were used to galleries with many more members, so they all voted for their buddy's efforts without thinking of the impact on our small gallery. Perhaps, given enough time, the tube craze would have died down by itself. As to postwork, some of our artists use extensive postwork that makes their images even more 'fractal' than when they came out of the generator, and most of us use some form of sharpening, resizing, framing or signing, which, minimal as it is, is still postwork. I have become somewhat more philosophical over time. I have come to realize that the Hot 20 is not about how good the art is, but about how popular the artist is. I never look there anymore. I value each comment I receive, knowing that someone took the time to click for a larger image and look at my work and leave their thoughts. I think this discussion and the previous ones that brought on the rules have been incredibly valuable in making people think about their own images and what they are trying to say as artists. I do think that the moderators should not be moving people's images without consulting them and negotiating with them, and that should only be done if there is a specific complaint against them. I will be glad to have choices to vote on, but I hope they are better than the last Renderosity vote choices I participated in that specified only 3 things, none of which I particularly liked, lol.

Well, I think that Renderosity is so kind to allow fractals of any kind here as it is primarily Poser orientated website and like software. The moderators are doing a bang up job and staying unbiased. I am guilty of using plugins on fractals to create a more pleasing image and or for weird effect. I personally like the pure fractal image no matter whatever fractal software. I am so happy that I have met so many wonderful artists here in the Renderosity community, and count on many as good friends although we never met in person. I came to Renderosity for the Poser content and learned of Apophysis. I have had trouble going back to Poser because of my desire to create fractals. shhh'

THANKS RENDEROSITY and all the fine people here

Hi all I think it's great to see all the views here. That's the nice thing about our forum. As far as the number of members complaining that brought about the rules...well, I wish I still had all the IMs that accrued over time. Unfortunately IMs over 6 months are deleted now. A few I still have, some I remember, and sadly, there are a couple that express one thing in IM while saying the exact opposite in the forum... Either way, I respect the privacy of the artists that IM me, and will not present their names. Looking back, it is true that a couple were transient members... It was however that thread that was started, in addition to the IMs, which eventually led to the placing of the guidelines. Barbara and I thought we had the best possible solution, and of course it backfired. Anyway, we will have an anonymous vote (it will be set up using the contest form, and I will have it up at some point this weekend). So let's give it a shot and see what happens...I know I'm curious... Nick

Hi Nick,

Would it be possible to announce the voting in the GALLERY with a gif image and a link to the voting page? I'm not sure all of our members know we even have this nice forum.

Message edited on: 10/08/2004 01:51

Thanks Vivian I did plan on putting the anouncement in the gallery header to link to the voting page. Some may not know about the forum, although the link to the forum has been there for ages :). But I'm sure others just simply avoid it, too. I am ever hopeful for a good turnout ;) Nick

Call me sleepy - I didn't know about the "Guidelines", went looking for them, found them and found them vague but understandable. Lately I create abstracts that don't look like a spirally traditional fractal but I create them with a fractal program and so I feel that they belong here. Sometimes I post-process them but not to the extent that the sense of the original is lost. IMHO my stuff belongs in the fractal gallery and I would be annoyed if someone moved it elsewhere.

Sharron

Nick, I'm sorry that you think the guidelines have backfired. I don't agree. I think they are working well, but you probably see a lot more backfire than I do. I was hoping there would be some agreeable modification to the guidelines, like allowing us to move our own images when prompted by you. If it is all or nothing, please consider the implications and backfire of removing the guidelines: Everything is fair game. I own a copy of Bryce now and if I choose to map a flame on to an object and stuff it into some obscure corner of my image, it's fair game in the fractal gallery. If I take a picture of a natural fractal, like a flower, tree or coastline and don't do anything with it in a fractal generator, it's fair game. Any abstract image that looks like it might have been made with a fractal generator would be fair game. I mean, if there are no guilelines then there are no guidelines, period, and I'll put whatever I damn well please into the fractal gallery. It would be a huge mistake to eliminate the guidelines all together. If you do then you might as well rename this forum to "the complaining about the fractal gallery forum" because it will never stop. Even if you say something like, "This gallery is open to all fractal related images" it would be better than nothing. A statement like that would open up the gallery to everything and anything, but when people complain you would have something in writing to make reference to. I'll go with the flow, but whatever you do, Nick and Barbara, define this gallery in writing. Keith

Amen.

So long as you used a fractal generator to make a fractal during the process of making an image then, yes, I believe you can post whatever you like in the gallery, Keith. The trouble with rules is that once you start laying them down to any specific degree then you have to keep adjusting them. It starts with no Bryce, no Poser, no tubes and then it's no Bringitin and no Xenodream and just keeps expanding with every new thing that comes out. Eventually you have a fractal gallery with only 3 people in it because the rules forbid any creativity in combining applications and only those that can be bothered to read through the long list of 'donts' can post anything. The way I see it, this is an art gallery and as such the image always comes first. So what if we get a few postings that don't really belong here? Who is it really hurting? In the past i've got just as annoyed as other people about some of the postings that don't belong here but i've changed my mind about it. In the big picture it doesn't affect my art or my enjoyment of this gallery, it can even be used to gain inspiration. Keith, I believe you have been influenced by non-traditional fractal art in the past...Fractal Spheres? After I started posting Bryce images with fractal mapped spheres in them you went all out to try and accomplish the same thing in Ultra Fractal, and succeeded brilliantly. Unfortunately with the new rules we have here now my original images would have never been allowed to be posted here. You probably wouldn't have seen them and a whole series of UF sphere images probably wouldn't have happened. At least not back then... That isn't a creative environment, and I don't want to be in an environment like that. A friend of mines favourite saying is "If you want the rainbow, you have to put up with the rain" and it couldn't be truer in this case. Matt. (and people say I can't be eloquent...)

Paul, I remember someone posting a photograph of a canyon on Mars in the fractal gallery once. Despite this blasphemous gesture the world didn't stop spinning, brimstone didn't rain from the sky and Satan wasn't reborn amoung us. In fact I think we looked at it, some of us commented on it, and then we all moved on to the next gallery image. It wasn't really that big a deal considering it should really have been in the photography gallery. Strange how times change. Matt.

Matt, I agree. We shouldn't take this stuff so seriously ;-)

There is a photo of cauliflower in the gallery with 8 comments and over 80 views. Someone posted a scanning microscope image of a golfball's surface awhile ago. These images are of interest to some and are a negligible effort to bypass for those not interested.

How long is the voting period going to be open?

You hit the nail on the head, Encrypted! So what if it is not pure 100% fractal?? You will probably know the minute that you see a thumbnail, whether or not you are interested in clicking on it to see the full size image, right? So if an image isn't as "fractalian" as you prefer to look at, you'll probably just pass it by and go on to the next page of thumbnails. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to look at every single image in the fractal gallery, much less mixed medium, poser, terragen, bryce, photography, etc. etc. So if an image just doesn't trip your trigger, then go on till one interests you enough to view full size. Seems like a no-brainer to me, anyway. Like Paul and Matt said, it's not that earth-shakingly important. :))