Renderosity has caved to pressure from PayPal. Starting November 22 your shopping choices in the Renderosity Marketplace will be censored according to PayPal's standards. Many merchants products will be eliminated. The resources available to you will be restricted by the corporate giant. If you want to keep your freedom, tell the admins how you feel about having your choices restricted to appease PayPal, a multinational corporation that doesn't know what art is. Nerd

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 17:57

I don't believe in PayPal, I won't use PayPal, I don't believe in censorship.
I do believe in seeking my purchases elsewhere in the FREE world.

Come on people, Art and especially Poser have nudes. If nudity is that disturbing to you than take up coloring in coloring books, jeeesh!

note: yes I feel modesty in thumbs needs to be taken as I too like to browse from work when the opportunity arises, but this "Total inialation of nudity" attitude!? I do not want my Poser to be reduced to a PlaySkool toy for kiddies! I like my freedom regardless of what the minorities think - Kerry lost and so should the shameless art critics with their filthy little minds - Romeo and Juliette is NOT Porn! Neither is Petter Petter pumpkin eater, Little Miss Muffet!
Oh, and Huck Fin...I had to think a bit, it's banned for so long....

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 18:05

A revolt against the policy will not make a difference. So,there really isn't alot of reason to start an uproar about it. like it or not,and I don't like it,because my best selling item will most likely be removed soon. Rosity NEEDS paypal and so do alot of merchants here as well as customers. and Rosity is NOT going to drop them. The3dZone

Maybe they could sell the adult items at Renderotica. Unless Paypal has the same policy there as well.

I don't understand how a banking company can dictate sales policy. Can someone explain?

not to sound like a complete idiot, but how will that work for character textures? Is it only complete nudity, or partial nudity that will be banned?

A couple of questions: Nerd, how do you know this? And what types of products will be eliminated? Examples please. 3dZone, why does Rosity need PayPal? Which of your products will be removed and where else can I find it? As for me, I think it will be Rosity's loss. If a vendor can't sell here, s/he will just find somewhere else and let us know through the Product Showcase. Rosity will lose their cut. Unless of course the loss of sales via not having PayPal as an option outweighs the loss of sales of those particular items.

Oops! Cross-posted with Nerd. Nevermind my questions, Nerd. And thanks for the info!

First they came for the naked ones...

Jackson, alot of merchants use paypal to get paid,mostly those outside of the united states,I believe. plus alot of customers use paypal to shop here as an alternative to using credit cards. I have not been informed yet if any of my products will be removed,but I do have 2 that meet the criteria as listed in the letter for removal. The3dZone

"Effective immediately Renderosity will no longer broker the following types of products:

1. Poses or activity were any person (regardless of age) appears that they "could" be engaged in sexual activity.
2. Items that appear "sexual in nature" or are intended for "adult audiences" (example: bondage gear)."

Hell and damnation! There goes half my wish list :-(

All hail the Great PayPal Taliban!!! :-P :-P :-P

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 18:57

...then they came for the ones who clothed the naked.

Whew! Just got out of the Merchant's Forum and talk about a firestorm.

Wanted to remind folks that Renderosity is not to blame for this change. Rendo has to bend to the whim of the people holding their money. PayPal is notorious for freezing assets for alleged infractions, usually with very little warning. If Renderosity fought this change, it would likely cost the merchants and the site a fortune!

The best thing to do to fight this type of censorship... cancel your PayPal accounts. Refuse to be part of a company that wants to dictate how you spend your money.

Will it work... who knows. I prefer to be an optimist today and hope it will.

Yikes! This is going to crush a large portion of the free market in the name of someone's interpretation of "right or wrong." I have to say that it doesn't really surprise me in a lot of ways, what with the knee-jerk ultra conservative reaction in the United States after the recent nightmare elections. Expect to see more of this, campers, as select portions of the population and the ruling class make their demands law.

Hmmm ... according to the letter it appears there were additional factors here besides Paypal. It appears as though a bigger goal is to increase exposure to other markets (which is good for all of the brokers, actually). Renderosity strives to be known as a "family-oriented" site, so this change would help support that.

*About Us

Founded in 1998, PayPal, an eBay Company, enables any...*

I just did a little browsing on eBay and took this screen shot from their Everything Else>Mature Audiences section. It's only part of the first screen that showed up. Page blurred and text blacked out purposely by me.

In case you can't see it, every item violates their policy. Something ain't right here.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:22 P.S.: Note the "Adult Toys" section. I wonder if it contains anthing that is "sexual in nature" or intended for "adult audiences?"

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:28

It was stated before, but I think it needs repeating: Poser is a program about the HUMAN BODY!!!!! Not just the arms, legs and head. We are reverting back to the days where it was forbidden to show a belly-button on TV. God help us liberals! Oh well, The Renderosity store was a great place to buy Poser items, but I guess all good things must come to an end! Thank you, you closed-minded, cowaring little "business men".

My comments about paypal's fascist actions will not be printed here since I like my account in its current state and to air my tru opinions about paypal will cost me said account 'cause such words are a clear and very plain violation of TOS

Just FYI: PayPal policy is actually a reaction to restrictions imposed by VISA. PayPal has gone overboard, yes, to cover their butts, but they didn't start this. They're just playing (VERY) safe. VISA have generally made it VERY difficult for anyone who wants to sell "adult" products by imposing very high annual fees and setting incredibly low charge-back ratios, among other things. As for eBay, you will notice that "mature" items can't be purchased with PayPal (IIRC).

And from what I understand it's not even the Mature content that VISA is concerned with directly. It's the fact that statistics show that people who order mature products on the Internet (ie. Porn site customers) have a much higher charge back rate than other groups. But I don't see how that would apply to Renderosity merchants and customers?

There was a thread in the Den a while back where a college student was accused of browsing a "porn site? (Renderosity) at the school library. So there are some who have/still perceive Rendo as a porn site. While Rendo strives to be a "family oriented" site, having adult-oriented products in the marketplace doesn't help the erroneous impression of it being a porn site. Also ... I have to agree with the previous message, where it said there are a high rate of chargebacks from porn sites. My VISA number was stolen, ironically when I made my first Paypal purchase several years ago. And I noticed it when I began to see charges to porn sites on my bank statement. Needless to say I promptly closed the account.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:53

Attached Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/

"God help us liberals!"

IIRC, the huge "anti-porn" movement that continues to this day was started by the democrats under Carter. (PORN MAKES MEN RAPE WOMEN!)

"As for eBay, you will notice that "mature" items can't be purchased with PayPal (IIRC)."

So they can sell the items but not take payment for them? After all, it is the same company. BTW: The few I looked at do accept VISA cards. And if eBay can sell adult items as long as PayPal isn't listed as a payment option, why can't Rosity?

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:55

The wife of one of my friends had a small web site, which she closed several months back. She is a Photoshop/PaintShopPro junkie. On her site she had a small store that she sold sets of brushes, tubes, frames, layer styles, etc. that she made. None of which had ANYTHING to do with nudity or adult content. On this site she also had a small gallery of her own digital paintings (about 15 in number). No links to the gallery from the store, it was completely separate.. JUST AS IT IS HERE! One image in the gallery showed the backside of a nude man, and another showed a woman's breast. Because of just those two images (non-erotic, or suggestive)...PayPal FROZE her account, and havent paid the small amount due her (yet). The income from that site was not even enough to cover the site cost...it was all just for her fun, so they just decided to shut it down. This really, really is not good!!

They will accept VISA cards, yes, but the burden of responsability falls on the issuing bank, not eBay itself. I am not fully inforned of all the details of the issue, but I know the problem comes with credit card processors, ie companies which act as intermediaries between an online retailer and a credit card company. Whatever the exact details, I do know that this problem stems directly from VISA policies (and not, interestingly, Mastercard, at least, not to the same extent). And PayPal does act as a credit card processor when it is used to make payments which originate from credit cards. So eBay will sell "adult" material as long as it does not serve as a "credit card processor" in the transaction. In other words, as long as eBay/PayPal is not connected with the transfer of any funds for the sale of such items. NOTE: I am not trying to defend PayPal. I believe they have gone way too far in being "careful". But they didn't invent this all. VISA did. And I believe that VISA's policies are a result of interference from the Justice Dept's attempt to crack down on porn, when they failed to do so in the courts. In brief: unable to prevent the sale of porn legally, they circumvented the issue by working to make it difficult for people to sell such material on the financial side, by having VISA inact very strict policies. I base the above on information obtained from within the porn industry itself.

[Maybe they could sell the adult items at Renderotica. Unless Paypal has the same policy there as well.]

Renderotica does not take PayPal for purchases there because of PayPal's rules.

Being an adult site does come with other restrictions. Merchant Accounts cost more (not just PayPal). And other companies are reluctant to sponsor or advertise on an adult site.

Renderosity has obviously decided they would rather not have those restrictions placed on them. That's their perogative. They are a business.

By the same token, Renderotica is a business that has chosen to deal in adult merchandise. We won't restrict what you can show and sell in the store or post in the galleries (with the exception of children and bestiality).

Renderotica welcomes vendors to submit their products to us. We have no restrictions on nudity or products of an adult nature. Your customers from Renderosity and maybe quite a few new ones from Renderotica will find you and they will continue to buy.

Please feel free to contact me at diane@renderotica.com or Ironbear at s_barnes@direcway.com We will do everything we can to expedite testing and get your products up in our store as soon as possible.

If we're paying for it, why should paypal care what we're buying?

Oh (word deleted). This is just wonderful. I'm not buying anything that they'd find offensive, mind you, so I don't think there'll be much trouble (there better not be!) with my purchases.

"The majority of the female breast must be clothed (at least 80%)."

Quick, hurry up and finish in Iraq so we can attack PayPal and free the women the too!!!!

But what if she's flat chested? Where does the '80%' start and end?? Message edited on: 11/15/2004 20:24

PapaBlueMarlin; PayPal is just making sure that you don't hurt yourself and that you practice good morals. PayPal is only promoting A Wholesome Fascist Society since Hitler failed. Besides, Renderostiy 'needs' PayPal, we don't as our money still spends just the same elswere ;p

I know money talks but this is especially disappointing--though not surprising. Unfortunately, the only way to make an effective statement is for a significant number of people to simply stop shopping here which will never happen. If one thing counts more than votes in this country, it's money. Unless people start using that power influence the course of events, such policies will continue and indeed get worse. Complaining here is pretty much just pissing in the wind.

The 'sity seems to want to kill itself. Many merchants will pull their whole store and move to another site, probably some of the best vendors here. Personally, I'd never buy a texture that isn't shown complete and in the nude. A number of pose sets here deal with intimate (though non-sexual) interaction between two figures that "could" be viewed as "sexual". The fetishwear ban is just a silly since it's just clothing items, that could be shown in the main picture and thumbnail unconformed and in promo's 2 and 3 on the figure. 80% of female breast? On a summer day you see more on an old lady waiting for the bus. Frankly, I expect them to lose a lot of business over this. Their best selling items are textures for figures. There are other companies that handle this kind of transaction other than PayPal, with a lot fewer restrictions. I'd investigate those before I threw out the best vendors and products they have left here. I'd also have asked the vendors for their input before I made the decision. If your vendor base is up in arms about it, it isn't going to be a profitable undertaking. I'm also concerned if other sites will follow the 'sity in this. If they do, the I want to buy stock in the company mentioned in post 27 (not naming it myself, since the last time I mentioned an "adult" site I got a warning). Note to vendors: When you do move your stores, please let us know where you go. I have money I want to spend, and come the 22nd of November, not much will be spent here anymore.

The Merchants effected are not without options. Poserpros does accept some of the items that do appear to be affected here and they also work with Paypal. Richabri is a merchant there as well. Check out the restrictions on other sites and see what can be done. As Diane herself said, R'otica does not accept Paypal but does allow for Check and CC payments. Diane has been very gracious in dealing with customer service issues as well. I have dealt with her both through e-mail and over the phone. R'otica itself is a free-site unless you want to get into the Premiere picture galleries. You still need to sign-up for a membership through to protect them.

Since the 'sity also maintains art galleries, will these have to follow the new rules? After all, that's definitly part of the site. Will the galleries lose all the NVIATWAS?

Wow. The rotica store is about to get =real= big... And I hope Rosity is sure of what it's doing; frankly, much of its user base deals with things that violate VISAPayPal nonsense.

Igohigh said "The majority of the female breast must be clothed (at least 80%)."

Quick, hurry up and finish in Iraq so we can attack PayPal and free the women the too!!!!

But what if she's flat chested? Where does the '80%' start and end??

Igohigh, It starts at the top of the forehead and ends at the soles of the feet. Haven't you seen a burka?

Ack!!! Ack!!! And I can't get into the merch forum to see!!! Damn damn damn....

What's next, Poser Prohibition?

No More Drinking And Doing Poser???? I'm Outta Here!!

...and when are they gonna put pants on those dragons? That big ol' tail hanging out like that is just plain disgusting!!!!

And hey, fair is fair, if women can't show breasts anymore then I don't wanta see no more hairy Man Chests either!!! After all, it's all about equal rights!

Oh, and no more bare feet either, after all that too is a whole world of porn in itself!

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 21:14

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 21:27

I wonder what Reonderosity Exclusive merchants will do.

I agree with pdxjims - I primarily shop for characters/textures here, other things at other marketplaces. If I can't see the whole texture in action I'm not parting with the $$. Can there be a link to offsite pics on the seller's pages? Or how about a link listed in the readme since we can view the readme's online. And if that is an option, how about readme's in html format so my lazy ass can just click on a link. ;)

I wasn't going to respond to this, but as always, I reserve the right to change my mind. I have never considered any of the poses "Naughty" "Nasty" or "Degrading." Art is Art. If they are going to shut down the amatuer who likes to use the 3d programs, then they'll have to go after Hentai, then professional art, and then start yanking down the "Master" works from the Louvre. All of the great masters painted nudes. Heck, the dome of the Cistene Chapel is filled with them. Thank goodness for Michael Angelo..and he had to work with a closed minded church. I will go so far as to say, that all I feel when I see the great artwork, textures, outfits, and accessories, is jealousy. Because, I am one of those unfortunate few who can't draw a straight line with a ruler. :) I would guess that the thing to do, is stop using Paypal, cancel your Visa Card and get MasterCard Debit Cards. If enough people stop using Visa, maybe they'll get the message. A not so noble patron of the Arts....

Ok, this sucks for lots and lots of reasons....I just started buying things here in the past few months (I didn't realize paypal would take money from a Canadian bank until June of this year), and I've seen many many many many MANY things I would like to buy. All I can say now is, well, I hope the merchants I want to buy from sell elsewhere. And, I thank my lucky stars I have a MasterCard, because this Visa/PayPal B.S. is getting absolutely ridiculous. There is a fine line between smut and art. And, yes, both can be made with the articles in the marketplace, but not all things made with anything HAVE to be one or the other (or either).
Does anyone have a listing of all of th other stores that sell Poser items? I would be very interested, since I'm just getting my footing in working in 3D....I'm still learning, but I'm trying to dive in headfirst, and stupid crap like this doesn't help. I've seen some excellent merchandise, but, ya know, I'm willing to spend more money at a merchant that won't treat me like I'm less important than my money.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 21:38

The new PayPal rules are, IMO, total and complete bollocks. PayPal ought to STFU and be happy that there are so many people willing to do business with them. You, me and everyone else are why PayPal is successful. and they should not be dicatating to us all from some nebulous standpoint of nudity = evil. I will be ceasing any business with them as soon as possible (like, right about now), and I strongly urge everyone else to do the same. Fer fux sake, how in the world is a merchant expected to show a skin texture (which is after all, duh, skin) without nudity? Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick, this is stupid beyond belief. I have always thought DAZ's rules bit the big weasel and it was for that reason that I never bought characters from there. I really wish I could say that I can afford to do without these bullshit artists but the sad truth is, I can't. Like so many other merchants, I really need to show my stuff at the biggest market, and that means here. Not a direct criticism of RO, but a very strong wish they'd tell PayPal to fuck right off. So, sad to say, I'll still be seling my stuff here but you can bet yer collective asses that I absolutely not be dealing with PayPal again. As Father Ted would say, "Feck off!"

...and when are they gonna put pants on those dragons?

I've been asking for a good trenchcoat for years ....

"-Minimal cleavage exposure. The majority of the female breast must be clothed (at least 80%).
-No suggestive or sexual positioning."

Well, there goes 75% of the Marketplace. Seriously. These criteria will all be subject to someone else's value judgements. And in order to meet any possible definition, some of the most innocent stuff will be a no-go.

"It's the fact that statistics show that people who order mature products on the Internet (ie. Porn site customers) have a much higher charge back rate than other groups."

From the point of view of someone who has experience running such sites and contact with many others, this is actually not true. There are some trouble sites, as in any market, but VISA & PayPal's targeting of the Adult market has been disproportionate. They've been extremely Draconian over the past year and a half. Don't expect that to change for a few more years, either.

My question is this:
Will there be some kind of flag or notification for potential customers between now and the 22nd for anything that might be pulled from the MP due to TOS restrictions? Preferably something that would show up when we look at our WishLists. I too second the mention of the R'otica MP, but that's going to be every merchant's individual decision.

"It's the fact that statistics show that people who order mature products on the Internet (ie. Porn site customers) have a much higher charge back rate than other groups." That is PURE and TOTAL b.s. I work in the Loss Prevention department for Mastercard. We RARELY get chargebacks for p0rn related items. 9 times out of 10, at least on the internet, it is failure to produce merchandise from gasp Ebay. Whoever's coming up with those statistics must work for James Dobson.

Good point! I'd be VERY leary of purchasing anything here that may be pulled on the 22nd. I'd rather wait and get it where it'll have support. I've been going through the marketplace's "What's Hot", and an awful lot if those items are going to go away.

I guess I'm just overlooking the obvious. If more texture/character artists were to post images (of the detailed variety) in the Product Showcase with a link to the character/product I'd still be inclined to buy here. Otherwise, I'll stick to my 3 or 4 favorite vendors since I'm well aware of the quality in their products. This kind of makes it hard for a new character artist though, I hope the Product Showcase forum will be seeing a lot more traffic in the future. ;) Paypal has had these rules for quite some time, this isn't "new". Enforcing those rules ~here~ however may be. I use Paypal (have for years without a problem) mainly because I don't trust giving out my CC number to every Poser marketplace. Until a better payment method comes along (or they royally screw me) I imagine I'll continue using them. BTW, for those worried about Paypal freezing your account. Just make another account at your bank just for Paypal transactions and link it to Paypal. Cancel your old personal bank account and make a new one of those too for all your other financial business. Now Paypal has no ability to reach funds you don't allow them access to.

Please. Listen to a 25+ year veteran of retail. Do not just drop PayPal and Visa. Take 30 minutes, and write up a detailed, polite, explanation as to =why= you are taking your business elsewhere. It is very easy to hide truth when the customer just goes away. Letting them know exactly why you are depriving them of your money is much harder to hide. Tell some friends about it, and if they agree, get them to follow your example. Neither PayPal or VISA are irreplaceable; there are alternatives to both. Remember the Exxon Valdez, and Exxon's 'we're not cleaning up shit!' attitude...until they started getting all those Exxon cards back in the mail, cut up. The general public =is= the tail the wags the dog, folks. Rosity most likely will not draw this line in the sand; they seem far too interested in getting that 'family' approval star....despite the fact that it will destroy them. As the purchasers, it is our job to stand our ground.

If pdx is right and Paypal objects to all 300,000 Nude Vickies in the gallery, then Renderosity would have no choice but to dump Paypal. My guess is that the system will correct itself and get back to the way it was.

Bookmarked- this is absolutely incredible!

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 22:32