as for creating a window... you take a box, you make it thinner on the x or z axis, you select the faces vertically, press c (connect, cuts them in half and connects the vertices), then do the same thing horizontally. select all the 8 smaller square faces, inset them, bump them inside, then just give them ANY material designation/color. once inside bryce you can just give that a glass mat, and a wooden mat for the frame, and you've got a window. wings101. that'll be 49.95, and you can always get more advice on my new dvd-quality cd-rom, available wherever wings nutters come together. drac

Thanks Chief.

Haven't tried it yet, but from what you've posted, I'll prefer method 1 I think. Thanks for taking the time to post it, I appreciate it :-)

As for the hidden message in that post;

I can see where you're coming from regarding stuff being free for Bryce etc. But what you seem to forget, is that something is only free if the author says it is.

Take a musician for example. They might shell out thousands on an education when they're young, in order to have a career as a specialist musician. They intend to make their living from what they produce.

Let's just imagine that YOU are that musician. Would you be pleased if your entire career went to ruin because SOMEONE ELSE has decided that YOUR work should be done for free?

It must be clear to everyone here, you're a BryceHead, and enjoy helping out the members here. I've just become one of the members to benefit from what you do, and I appreciate it.

Who made that decision to give out freebies, and help out the community with tutorials and stuff? - you did!

And that's what it should be, YOUR decision. On the other hand, whoever is producing this Wings DVD, also has the right to decide whether or not it should be free. As far as I'm concerned, they're just another venture trying to make an honest living by producing a DVD tutorial. I see nothing wrong with that, and wish them the best of luck with it.

So chief, what do you say? - you see where I'm coming from, or just don't agree?

Can't say I really agree. I mean, okay, tuts for Photoshop, InDesign, 3DSMax, whatever. Those are fine, and there are people out there interested in buying the programs and dishing out a bit more to get in the learning curve. But Wings3D is a free program developed entirely through donations. Making a buck off someone else's work (which is freely available and distributable) seems kinda icky to me. If they're part of the team that made the program, then sure. Plus, saying that you're making a beginner's to intermediate's tut for Wings (and you're selling it) is like saying you're gonna charge a guy for showing him how the incredible process of taking a leak is done. The program is dead simple, and the tuts that are already out there for free are pretty damn good. Wings is difficult in uvmapping, complex organic modelling, etc. And even in the case of organic modelling, there are hundreds of tuts out there for similar box-modelling programs that differ only in the slightest. Same with uv-mapping. All the Wings commands, shortcuts, etc are descrbied in the manual. So no, I don't think it's right. They can do whatever the hell they please with their dvd, sell it to completely clueless idiots for all I care. I'm sure other parts of their tutorials (like PS) will be worth it. But 'noble' venturists like these, especially those who profit from completely free communities like the Wings3D one, in my humble opinion, should be shot. Drac (i'm not a brycehead)

Hey - Bryce aint a free program, so it's allowed for Bryce then? Len (puts on bullet-proof kit just in case)

well, that's different. Bryce was conceived of as a for-profit commercial package, so that issue is already on the table. The point of Wings, and other open-source packages, is that you don't charge for the software, and everyone gets a hand in shaping the overall direction. Now, as PT Barnum used to say, there's a sucker born every minute, so I guess if they have excess money, there will be people coming out of the woodwork to help them part with it (also known as the Foreign Cab Driver's motto..;)

I agree, and disagree. Bryce 5 is so cheap, it might as well be free. Selling tutorials and materials for Bryce is just ridiculous, with the obvious exceptions of "Real World Bryce" and things of that nature. Books take a long time to make. I feel that any procedural materials should be free, period. Nobody except the programmers had anything to do with the DTE, which we're lucky we even have. You can't CREATE new materials from scratch, you can mereley tweak them. Models? Objects? Now there is serious work involved, and creativity in the extreme is possible. So paying for something that is actually CREATED is, to me, ethical. But like Drac's getting at, if you sel someone a product that can be found for free ALL over, and if you want to bottom-feed and milk the stupid or internet-challenged, then you lack ethics. Just how I feel.

Icky ?!? Is that a real word ? Ethics,!?! Never heard of it. By the way,........I have a new product coming out,........"Instant Water",........just add water. I still can't even make a sphere in Wings,........then again, maybe it's just me.

Message edited on: 01/24/2005 00:06

Thanks,..........the checks in the mail.

Attached Link: Default Nothing ( try it out )

I see no difference from putting together primitive shapes, ( that the programmers included in any Application ) to create a model. Than putting together and filtering noise patterns, ( that the programmers included in the Application ) to create a procedural texture.

( Models? Objects? Now there is serious work involved, and creativity in the extreme is possible. }

I create many materials ( but not all ) from a preset I call ( default nothing ) And that's what it is absolutely nothing, a procedural texture with no properties.

So what is the difference from building a procedural texture from the ground up, than building a model from the ground up?

Personally I find it more challenging building the textures than the models. The DTE is by far the most complicated, versatile, and unique texture generator I've seen in any 3D package. And I know of no one who has claimed to have mastered it. If you down load the file, you will need to rename the file extension to .brt it is not a compressed zip file even though Internet Explorer sees it as a hqx file

Message edited on: 01/24/2005 01:09

Drac, they are not selling Wings. They are selling their knowledge. And not only the knowledge of the program, but the knowledge of conveying that information to others, too. And that's absolutely right with me. They are saving other people's time and effort, just like those who sell materials and tuts for Bryce. I mean, it would be great if everybody gave away their tuts for free, but if they want to sell their knowledge, that's completely fine.

wonders why this was posted in new Bryce thread, rather than in Wings forum, or in existing threads about 'oles Could it possibly be that drac's goodly advice about holes was given away to score the profit of a point? Thus being for the purpose of gain for the giver. :o| Message edited on: 01/24/2005 02:40

Attached Link: http://www.artofaj.com/head_5.htm

I think it's an interesting topic.

Stephen Ray, you my friend are sadly mistaken. The DTE is something I've never claimed to master, but now will do so. It is not a mystery any more, to me. It makes perfect sense, and is in fact quite simple. The GUI makes it seem very tedious, but it's not. I have demystified it many times in (free) tutorials, and will continue to do so for free if anyone asks me anything I haven't covered. I have even spoke (typed) with the creators of the DTE, and have received all the answers I need about it.

Compared to the shading engines in Maya (Hypershade) and Lightwave, not to mention the ridiculous program Z-brush, Bryce's DTE is a mere toy, at best. MojoWorld's material creation system is also massively advanced compared to Bryce. Even Poser 5 has some serious power compared to Bryce, which doesn't even support displacement.

Don't take me wrong, I love Bryce and it's material creation, but to say it's the "most complicated, versatile, and unique texture generator I've seen in any 3D package" means to me you've either seen only a few 3D packages, or have limited yourself to only a few.

I say this with no insult intended, it's just that you seem to lack perspective in this realm.

What I was getting at, really, was that the DTE has limits that are unrelated to imagination. Modeling itself doesn't have these limits. The DTE has finite possiblities, although in the millions or more. Modeling as an art form does NOT.

But I guess both you, Stephen Ray, and Erlik made a good point... It's knowledge, and it's important. My point is that I will never sell these things, it's not ethical for me to sell something that, to me, is too easy to be anything else than free.

Message edited on: 01/24/2005 02:38

no pog, it wasn't. i make stuff and give it out for free. 3d work is my hobby, not my primary source of income or passion. in terms of pumeco, i honestly wanted to help the poor bastard out. drac

in terms of pumeco, i honestly wanted to help the poor bastard out. drac, I'm driven to re-post a suggestion that I deleted yesterday. I suggest that you take a step back, and consider whether there's an element of obsession and compulsion in your hounding of pumeco. There are a lot of very young people on this forum, and I don't think it's right that they see regular posters getting away with bullying other members constantly, and getting away with it.

Pog, there is nothing bullying about it. Pumeco came to us, not as a learner, but as a door-to-door salesman trying to sell us something we already knew how to do. If it were my house, I would invite him in for an orgy, or ask him if he wanted a copy of the book of mormon. Something fabulous, to make him smile or flee in panic! Here, we are just having fun. I'll consider him my contemporary when he shows me a picture. Until then, he's a guest, to me. Len, I think you're pretty cool! Just put something in your gallery, for the love of dragons!

I can see where you're coming from, lsd. But f'rinstance, I don't post Bryce images here because I use it for rendering 3d objects made in Wings, that are for commercial purposes in the real world. But I enjoy the forum, like getting tips, like the other forum members. At the same time it's not strictly a hobby for me. I buy materials on occasion, and I like having that option. I don't see anything wrong with people trying to earn a living from a skill that they possess. This is a commercial site, whether we like it or not. If pumeco finds a way to make money from selling an add-on to Bryce, good luck to him. If he doesn't, I'd feel for him that he put a lot of work and effort into something that didn't work out. Why not leave him alone to find his own way into the community? He hasn't committed any crime. This whole war was instigated and is kept alive by drac. It's time he pulled back and let it go.

Actually, I disagree. Drac had very little to say in the beginning, and what i've seen from him were humorous and (in this case) educational attempts to keep Len from demeaning himself. Pointing a finger at Draculaz is ridiculous, it's been other people, myself included, that tore his plan apart because it reeked of arrogance and unprofessionalism. Also, he's falsely advertising. In USA, where I live, that is a crime, and is generally punishable by large fines. Or worse, class-action lawsuits. I'd like to see Len avoid this situation, but he keeps digging himself in deeper. Not my problem, but if I can save people from buying something they don't need and never did, I will gladly do so.

Also, he's falsely advertising. In USA, where I live, that is a crime, and is generally punishable by large fines. Or worse, class-action lawsuits. This is reaching surreal heights of nonsense. I'm outta this thread. Get a freakin' life, the whole lot of you.

I politely refuse. I am Everything, I am Nothing.

lol, guys, relax. poggy, you and i have several issues to talk about, but you have to admit that my attempt was perfectly generous and normal given this forum. Len said he didn't know how to do something, I helped him out in another thread with ways to do it. Afterwards, the rest was a surprisingly civilized discussion between me and him. I pulled the whole poor bastard thing as a joke, and i didn't see him inflame the thread any bit. drac (pumeco and i are pals) ((more like acquaintances))

(Stephen Ray, you my friend are sadly mistaken. The DTE is something I've never claimed to master,) lordstormdragon Please do not take this as an attack on you, I did not say you have claimed to master the DTE. I simple stated I have never met anyone who has claimed to have mastered the DTE. And that's in my 7 years of Brycing. You are also correct in assuming that I have not seen the new versions of many 3D apps. Most of the higher end programs that I do own are older than sin, and the programs I do keep current are either given to me by companies I beta test for, or they are the lower end programs such as Bryce & Poser, which I can afford. I have thought about using the learning additions of high end programs such as Maya, but came to the conclusion of, why spend countless hours learning something I will not be able to afford until my youngest of 4 children graduates from collage in 10 or 12 years. I think where you are misunderstanding me is, I am not talking about materials, which include channels such as Bump and Displacement. A shader itself is a texture generator, and it is very limited to what kind of texture can be produced from it. Like poser for example, has a shader for wood, and all it does is generate a wood type texture. That's why I say of the programs I use, the texture generators are very limited. So limited it takes many different types of shaders, such as marble, wood, clouds, noise ect...Sure you can use the shader in various material channels, building unique and elaborate material trees. But then it become a material, not a texture. ( The DTE has finite possibilities, although in the millions or more. ) You are correct there to, but I would venture to say that one could spend their entire life, clicking the random button in the DTE and never come up with the same texture twice. I also think that the only time knowledge should be sold, is when the people purchasing it will give it away for free. And if I sell a model or material I created, I'm not selling my knowledge, just a product of my knowledge.

Is it really that bad?

Really though, I thought I'd come back to this thread with something interesting to read, but I mean this is really something else.

The main problem here isn't me or my product, it's a combination of doing a job for my living, and the fact that I enjoy using Bryce. I suppose the two may never go hand-in-hand.

The fact of the matter is, marketing is what I do. What's special about PRO-RENDER (for me at least) was that unlike other projects I tackle, this one was born out of a hobby I enjoy.

I'm no different from anyone else here - I'd also like to be able to earn something from doing something I enjoy.

Despite the constant "you copied it" - "we're doing it already" - "we already have that" comments, I've yet to find a download link that will give the members here a PRO-RENDER equivalent. If there is one, please tell me and I promise to drop PRO-RENDER - not out of sarcasm, but out of genuine observation that my product is not needed by any members.

I've worked many hundreds of hours on my product in order to get it to what it is now, and model or not, it's taken a lot of mental effort to get right.

So, I still intend to release it no matter what. I had strategies in place to help handle "hacked" distribution of my product, but I've decided to remove them.

I'm losing the few friends I had around here, and the product just isn't worth this sort of hassle. I intend to carry on with other projects in other industries for now. I'll wait and see if PRO-RENDER is well recieved on it's release, if it isn't, then like pog said...I tried.

I'll release PRO-RENDER, nothing so sure as that. But I'm going to wait until I know if the TA smoothing bug has been fixed in Bryce. If I don't wait for this, I'd be selling a substandard product under the pumeco brand, and that's just sooooooooo not an option.

Which brings me to personal comments;

@drac

Isn't this fun? :-)

@pog

PLEASE, share some IM's with drac, settle any differences, blow him a big wet smacker and make up. I know he's a total shit at times, but please try ;-)

@Erlik

I agree ;-)

@lordstormdragon

Hey mister lawsuit - PRO-RENDER;

is what I said it is,
does what I said it does,
produced what I said it produced!

Can't help but think you're still taking the piss with that gallery comment - you know I aint an artist, so why would I post to my gallery? But who knows, maybe one day I'll produce some art - stranger things have happened ;-)

As for the orgy, yep I'm up for that! Tell me you've got a green-eyed beauty that speaks with a Russian accent, and I'll be over there faster than Concorde on steroids :-P

Len(strangely excited).

Len, We've seen several examples and test renders you've done. Maybe just posting those, art or not, to the gallery will appease some parties, at least on that matter. At the very least, will remind us what a pro-render picture looks like. I implore, plead, beg even, for you to get it released as soon as is humanly possible so we can see what the Bryce grandmasters do with it and then we can put this whole thing to rest and harmony can return to the forum.

Len... Just go to the Bryce Forum search and type in "Global Illumination", "Radiosity", or simply, "Ornlu", and you will find your necessary imagery for withdrawing kindly. I wasn't trying to threaten or bug ya with the false-advertising statement, but like I've said before, there's nothing "pro" about pro-render. Lowercase intentional. Perhaps entitle it, "grainy-render", or "near-grainy-photo-render", or not-so-simply, "takes too long for a professional to consider it render". Much more accurate. And Len, we will always be friends. If you feel angry towards me, just look at my stupid screen name. I'm sure you could have just as much fun dissecting it's implications as I have disassembling your "product".

Oh well, I "DID" promise to drop PRO-RENDER if this was the case, so I'd better stick to my word eh! God damn, and I was "SO"" sure I was on to something as well :-/ Shows how wrong you can be dunnit :-P lol Len (still your friend though).