"There are no "injustices" here."

No? I'll start selling my software to Americans for twice the price as everyone else. You think any Americans might consider that unjust?

"Curious Labs isn't in business to lose money. And they aren't constituted as a public charity, either."

WTF are you talking about??? They'll make as much money from me as any American. Are Americans getting pubic charity?

False: All what the posters received was the same old corporate spin.

Read the through the thread referenced in my post above, if you like.

False: 40% is not "slightly" higher.

In European terms: oh, yes it most certainly is.

Try comparing the price of gasoline across the pond.

False: Like I said, the terrirory has "not" been covered at all.

RE: the above thread again. And if you don't like that one, then there are plenty of others.

False: Noone wants CL to loose money. What people want is an honest explanation. BTW, whats wrong with "Fairness" ?

Demanding that CL sell its product at a loss is demanding that they lose money. And that's an honest explanation.

What's wrong with "fairness" is that it has no bearing on reality.

It's not fair that someone else has a billion dollars, and that I don't. It's not fair that I wasn't born into this world looking like Mel Gibson. It's not fair that someone else can play football better than I can.

The concept of "fairness", as a principle of life -- is worthless.

Enforced "fairness" as an ideology has been tried already. It killed a lot of people along the way to creating a "worker's paradise".

All such attempts are doomed to end in abysmal failure.

Life just isn't fair.

And that's what's wrong with "fairness".

To be honest, discussions like these give me the impression that a few members here constantly confuse a buisiness relationship with fandom.
Curious Labs is a corporation that sells software.
Even though this software seems to have a big impact on many members lives, they are just that: A buisiness entity.

That's it. CL is a business entity.

In other words, they need to make money in order to stay in business.

And, hopefully, to grow.

In contrary to what some members may seem to think, this is not a commie conspiration to drive an honest hard working American buisiness out of the market. (LOL)

Hmmmmmm. The only place that I've seen any suggestions regarding a "Commie conspiracy" were made above.

Yes....they are an "honest, hard-working American business".

And they have to sell their product in such a way as to achieve a reasonable return on it.

No? I'll start selling my software to Americans for twice the price as everyone else. You think any Americans might consider that unjust?

Across the pond, pretty much everything costs more. Not just software.

It's all been cut through before. Read the thread which I referenced several posts ago.

WTF are you talking about??? They'll make as much money from me as any American.

Not at the higher tax rates overseas, they aren't.

It's 1:39 AM Eastern Standard Time on a Tuesday morning.

Y'all will have to thrash this one out without me, for now.

Enjoy.

;-)

I thought the Coupon was for signing up to the CL Newsletter by December. I know some people that just bought P5 that got a coupon.

Tastiger wrote: I just had this image pop into my head of several Aussie & Kiwi Poser users sitting around sometime after the 21st looking at these pristine boxes, wrapped in plastic and working out a way to open them without destroying the wrapping, coz the blinking box cost $AUD 88...... Well join me in that club. Better be a very pretty box I think, cause it is expensive. What I am trying to get an answer from Digital Rivers is: I was finally on March 11th able to place my order successfully after a previous order would not complete. Katherine did IM back me after I sent her an IM listing the ordering problems I encountered (like what was posted here to put in the IM). That was dated Feb 22nd. She told me it had been passed onto Digital Rivers and they would email me within a week. Guess what - never heard from them. I just presumed the original order was cancelled by them cause I was able to order again. Now, my order shows I have to pay this outrageous sum of 51,59 EUROS for shipping by UPS Overnight. This is what the drop down box provided. I have since found out on a DAZ forum that it should be UPS International but surely this cannot be charged at the Overnight rate. It would be impossible to Austalia anyway. I querried this with Digital Rivers via their online contact email for order questions and got a canned useless response back but it did say I could reply to that which I have done and am waiting on a reply to that. I wonder if they will respond. Seems to be a lot of disgruntled Australians trying to order P6. They want us to 'put up and shut up' with the way this has been handled for us. Jan

""WTF are you talking about??? They'll make as much money from me as any American."

Not at the higher tax rates overseas, they aren't."

This thread started by pointing out that our FTA means THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL TAXES OR DUTIES added to the US prices.

Come on, admit it...you're a CL stooge. You're as good as they are at completely side-stepping the issue, creating strawmen, and waving a hand in the air as an explanation.

As I head off to bed, I wonder if this thread will still be unlocked in the morning. I guess I should get in one last shot. There is no such word as "noone." ::::: Opera :::::

The concept of "fairness", as a principle of life -- is worthless.<< Dear XENOPHOBS, most societys across the pond at least try to compensate for the inevitable unfairness of live: I.e. they feed the hungry, give to the poor and heal the sick. They usually also like a clean environment and therefor encourage their citizens to save precious energy. Thats the reason why energy costs are generally a bit higher in Europe. (Although there will be a drastic change to this situation as soon as OPEC countries start to trade crude in EURO instead of $) ANYWAY, this has exactly NOTHING to do with the fact that CL and/or DR overcharge their Non-US customers for downloadable goods. Claiming that "They will lose money" again and again is just spin if you cant back it up. I always thought "Because I say so" stopped being a valid argument as soon as one outgrows Kindergarten. LOL. @Pointlady: 51,59 EUROS for shipping to Australia is ridicoulus. I just checked Royal Mail, and a small package sent via airmail from UK to Australia is GBP15 for up tp 1.5kg. This is JoePublic speaking

Before this thread gets locked, let me sum it up.... Now I sell a small program in the Market Place at Renderosity. - What would happen if I decided to charge US customers $15 for that program - but let everyone else buy it for the normal price of $10? On that point I shall leave and paitiently await my $88 box....

It isn't a matter of "fairness", but a matter of "entitlement". Over the last few years I've watched as people here tear into each other and the various companies out of jealousy that someone else got a slightly better price... totally discounting such absolutely miniscule and negligible factors as time of sale and location of either buyer or seller or whether there was a middleman involved or tax/duty/customs rates and tariffs or ANYTHING else which might possibly in the REAL world have a bearing on the issue. If someone else saved a nickle or got offered a discount whether they used it or not, the screaming rises to a fevered pitch. Jealousy? :ptui!: If a company apologizes and offers a discount or an extension of a sale or any other mollifying factor, it just adds more fuel to the desire to get it for free, right now, and most certainly cheaper than anybody else can possibly get it. Guess what? Life is not fair. Deal with it. It isn't fair that some people get bombed into rubble or that kids get sold into slavery or that billionaires earn more money than they can spend (at one time J Paul Getty was earning $88,000/day every day in dividends and he was a piddle in a pond compared to Bill Gates). The only thing you have to determine when you are buying a model or an application or a computer is "what is it worth to me right now?" If you need it and it is worth the price, buy it. If you don't think it is worth the price, don't buy it. Complaining that someone who bought the program a month later saved $10, or the model went on sale or got included in a bundle or was given free on a magazine, or that the computer you bought 6 months ago is obsolete will not change anything... but merely show how mean-spirited you are. I'm using "mean" in its real usage of impoverished, miserly, niggardly and petty. Instead of shrieking that someone somewhere else in the world is only paying x in today's currency equivalents, look calmly at the price and ask yourself: Is it worth this much to me here and now? What is the value here? Will it save me more than this in time? Will it allow me to do similar things to another program costing 10 times as much? Will it allow me to do something that I couldn't do before? Will the results bring me pleasure or profit or both? Note that I thought of offering to help Katherine with the IMs. But I think you'd all rather wait while she works through them. (300/day? Yikes!) She is much more patient than I am... you ought to appreciate that! Another thing to consider: the time it took to complain could have been spent working on a piece of art or walking in the sunshine or helping a kid with a homework problem or protecting a park from development... something positive and useful. Carolly

"Guess what? Life is not fair. Deal with it."

Hmm, I could use that explanation to justify racism, sexism...

"...factors as time of sale and location of either buyer or seller or whether there was a middleman involved or tax/duty/customs rates..."

Holy cow... how many times do I have to make this point: There are NO tax/duty/customs rates inflating the price, due to our FTA. And there is no middleman when downloading from the company.

"If someone else saved a nickle...the screaming rises to a fevered pitch"

Another strawman. We're not talking about "a nickle", we're talking enough to buy a DVD player.

And I gather you'll be happy to pay the extra 50% for tastiger's program ;)

And we Australians would really appreciate it if others would stop lumping us in with Europe.

I too am an Aussie..I have one solution to the problem of what seems to be an unfair pricing structure. It's very simple..if you don't like the price..don't buy the product:) Write to the companies involved..explain to them why you WON'T be buying the product. Only if enough folk complain..VIA the only language companies understand..lost sales..will you change policies. The people complaining are already obviously Poser users, of one version or another, so stick with what you have. If you feel that you HAVE to have what is supposedly available in the new version, then you'll have to put up with the current price structure. You DO have the choice.. to purchase or not to purchase :)

I just noticed that Xena posted a reply to a thread that tyd2 started on the DAZ general forum Posted: 14 Mar 2005 21:48 Post subject: And you know the worst part, CL could have EASILY set up their own webstore using osCommerce or ZenCart and been able to offer multiple currencies, downloable (with secure addresses) products and set their own prices for shipping. _________________ Wonder why they didn't do this. They at least took preorders of P5 themselves and we were able to buy in US dollars. Joe Public wrote: @Pointlady: 51,59 EUROS for shipping to Australia is ridicoulus. I just checked Royal Mail, and a small package sent via airmail from UK to Australia is GBP15 for up tp 1.5kg. This is JoePublic speaking Joe this is what I am getting at with Digital Rivers. My initial order for P6 (the special price one for early adopters of P5, of which I was one) would not complete when I chose the Royal Mail option or any others to Australia. I believe there was some glitch in the system then, that was supposedly resolved - but not satisfactorily it seems - for now we have this outrageous shipping cost to Australia of 51,59 EUROS. My invoice from Digital Rivers shows this: 1 Poser 6 English Edition Upgrade from P5 - Preorder of 69,00 EUROS Shipping charge of 5l,59 EUROS. Egads, this is almost the price of the program. Hope this gets sorted out soon with Digital Rivers (or Curious Labs) to a reasonable shipping cost to Australia or else I might have to think about cancelling my order. I am resolved about having to pay in EUROS whatever CL's reason, though I think this stinks, but this shipping charge is outrageous. My experience with buying the pre-order of P5 from Curious Labs was we could pay in US dollars (although then with the very low exchange rate - it cost an arm and a leg) Shipping was around about US$11 I think for International Air Mail. The shipment landed at Sydney by Airborne Express, then went to Customs for our Goods and Service Tax (GST) charge to be assessed. Customs then rang you with the charge, which you had to pay before it was released for delivery. Some Australians who ordered P5 had problems because there was no Phone No on the delivery docket and their P5 was held in limbo by customs. Mine was luckily, but Curious Labs had my name and street correct, but not the state or location I lived in and it would have been returned to them as undeliverable if I had not made numerous phone calls to track my order whilst trying to find out what happened to it in Australia after Customs released it. Makes me wonder what will happen to my P6 order. Jan Ps there is an interesting thread on the LaRoo character included with P6 on the RDNA Poser forum too.

Extract" "False: All what the posters received was the same old corporate spin." Comment: interesting. Specifically point out how it is spin, please. Extract: "False: Giving an honest explanation would have made treads llke this uneccassary." Comment: Bullshit. The answer was direct and to the point. As I noted earlier, it would require the individuals involved to actually educate themselves on global trade issues for small software firms dealing through third party fulfilment systems. Not hard, but obviously beyond the abilties of those complaining. Extract: "False: Noone wants CL to loose money. What people want is an honest explanation. BTW, whats wrong with "Fairness" ? To be honest, discussions like these give me the impression that a few members here constantly confuse a buisiness relationship with fandom. Curious Labs is a corporation that sells software. Even though this software seems to have a big impact on many members lives, they are just that: A buisiness entity. And as long as they treat one part of their customers differently from the other part without giving a plausible explanation, they will have to face criticism. Just like any other corporation that does the same." Nothing is wrong with fairness. Fair would be to take the matter matter up with the company handling the fulfillment. Fair would be a single worldwide currency. Fair would be a world where things like human nature and difference are tolerated. Fair is a goal, but not a reality. You are correct that the fans of the software appear to be ridiculously foolish when it comes to dealing with the companies involved in it. Not just Curious Labs. DAZ and Renderosity as well seem to have some sort of active groups harboring age old grudges against them where the companies essentially will never be able to do anything without angering pollsters. However, Curious Labs does not treat one part of their cutomers differently. Digital River does that. There is a difference between Curious Labs and Digital River. They are two separate customers. Attend to the actual issue, not the one that's easy, and you might get somewhere in your goals. Extract: "Now, my order shows I have to pay this outrageous sum of 51,59 EUROS for shipping by UPS Overnight. This is what the drop down box provided. I have since found out on a DAZ forum that it should be UPS International but surely this cannot be charged at the Overnight rate. It would be impossible to Austalia anyway" Comment: This strikes me as the usual "get some profit from shipping while we're at it" scheme ar too many people use (it is especially prevalent on Ebay, based on the fees my wife has been charged). The fee you pay for shipping there -- and the specific options you have (international is a different service from overnight, and both exist) -- are determined by Digital River. If I were in this boat, I would feel an overwhelming need to cause harm to digital river's business. Extract: "This thread started by pointing out that our FTA means THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL TAXES OR DUTIES added to the US prices." Comment: And, as near as I can determine, there are none. Your particular interpretation of the fees being applied is wrong. A Tax or Duty is applied under Law. In other words, the governments state these things need to be charged. A difference in price based on currency rates is not the same thing. Grasp that concept. It will do you a world of good. Extract: "ANYWAY, this has exactly NOTHING to do with the fact that CL and/or DR overcharge their Non-US customers for downloadable goods. Claiming that "They will lose money" again and again is just spin if you cant back it up." Comment: 1 - CL is not overcharging. Digital River is. 2 - You need to look up the specific definition of spin as you applied it and rephrase that statement. Spin, in case you hadn't noticed, is just another way of stating the truth. The concept you are seeking is misdirection, or perhaps lying. Regardless of that, however, there is no "backing up" a statement like "they will lose money". Absurdist posturing. It is not the role of a customer to determine what constitutes an acceptable loss to a company, it is the role of those who run the company. Extract: "- What would happen if I decided to charge US customers $15 for that program - but let everyone else buy it for the normal price of $10?" Comment: Irrelevant. You can't do that here. Also, inaccurate. A more accurate comparison would be you submit a product to Renderosity and state your wholesale price and sign a fulfilment contract. You provide them with the price in your native currency, and they they do the rest -- including pricing the product according to whatever agreement you have established. They then proceed to charge more. BEing renderosity, they would get their rear's chewed for it, but ignore the complaints, you would get your money, and either have to deal with it until you could pull your product (by which time the damage in sales will have been done) or be quiet and smile and offer little tidbits like the above. In short, the same thing that is going on now. Extract: "Hmm, I could use that explanation to justify racism, sexism..." Comment: Yes. And agitating for greater fairness is always a good thing. Just agitate int he right way and to the right people. Screaming about the unfairness of black society to white people will do you no good in a town with no white people. Extract: "Wonder why they didn't do this. They at least took preorders of P5 themselves and we were able to buy in US dollars." Comment: Entirely second guessing them, but one would estimate that the reason is they did not have the wherewithal to do so in a manner that was satisfactory to them. Althought he basic mechanics of such sites are easy in principle to set up, the back end support -- customer service, fulfilment (server hostings for multiple downloads in the thousands at once as well as additional handling and backups), and similar -- is not easily nor inexpensively done. A simple set up to handle something where only a mere 1000 downloads a second could be concurrently run worldwide would require a small investment of around 40,000 to start, and goes up from there. That's not counting the training, hiring expenses, and location for the servers, nor the expenses for a business to install and maintain the appropriate mirrors abroad. So I would say it is because they don't have the ability to do so to a level that they felt comfortable with. I would also say that is a simplistic and unaware suggestion. General Comment: Beyond that, I will second the comments of this Hauksdottir person. If you don't like the price, then do not buy it, and do not go to a forum and complain about it when the purpose of that forum is stated to be for other purposes -- and then get upset when folks take you to task for it. If you post, someone will respond. And in kind. If you post to incite -- as I admittedly do -- then people will respond heatedly. If you post in kindness, you recieve those as well. Which is not to say do not complain about it -- but when you do, do it in a manner that gets something done, which posting to here does not do.

"...Your particular interpretation of the fees being applied is wrong. A Tax or Duty is applied under Law. In other words, the governments state these things need to be charged. A difference in price based on currency rates is not the same thing. Grasp that concept. It will do you a world of good."

Thanks for the condescension, but currency rates are not an issue to CL if I pay in $US.

"...it would require the individuals involved to actually educate themselves on global trade issues for small software firms dealing through third party fulfilment systems."

You point me to somewhere that my feeble little Australian mind can be "educated" with proof that it costs CL more for me to download a copy of Poser 6 than it does for an American, and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong. (And I don't mean passing the blame to Digital River. If I hire a crook to sell my wares, I'm still responsible.)

Condescension is not free -- mockery is. If I've been condescending, I'll have to charge. Small change. Currency rates are an issue -- my understanding of the problem is that you are not allowed to purchase in USD from outside the US -- something Digital River determines, not CL. I am not familiar enough with the institutions of higher learning in Australia, but I will happily direct you to one of them near you. Seek out classes in global econmoics and marketing, information technology infrastructure, and business history. That should begin your efforts nicely, and when you've finished them, turn to macroeconomic prinicples. It might also educate you on the potential trouble that could be garnered by calling Digital River a crook in a semi-public record goverend by laws of a location that takes such things seriously. Extract: "As I said, I had waited almost a month and you did not reply to my one and only IM, and your reply made me look like a liar. For that I think I deserve an apology." Comment: You didn't read carefully enough. She said "I believe", not "I am certain". Indicates she wasn't certain she had. The cost of a product's form is irrelevant -- the downloadable version costs the same as the shipping one. Get off the blaming CL and pick on Digital River, and direct your requests and comments to a more proper location (such as the customer service department of DR) and you will likely get a more desired response without being tossed from side to side by pundits.

I just read post #16, where there was a reply from the online store. Is that reply from CL or DigitalRiver? If someone is purchasing a downloaded program, with no box, what does it matter where it "ships" from? Or what currency you use to purchase it? I think this is more a problem with DigitalRiver, rather than CL. Of course, CL should be monitoring DigitalRiver, and this does point out a problem that should be dealt with. Side Note: CL is a US subsidiary of E-On, a Japanese company. It used to be a subsidiary of a German company that sold CL when they filed bankruptcy after P5. CL hasn't been a US firm for a number of years.

It might also educate you on the potential trouble that could be garnered by calling Digital River a crook in a semi-public record goverend by laws of a location that takes such things seriously.

Now you read carefully. I posed a hypothetical about myself: "If I hire a crook to sell my wares, I'm still responsible." Any other inference is yours. Hmm, but you have publically accused me of calling them crooks... ;)

"..it would require the individuals involved to actually educate themselves on global trade issues... Not hard, but obviously beyond the abilties of those complaining."
"Seek out classes in global econmoics and marketing, information technology infrastructure, and business history.... when you've finished them, turn to macroeconomic prinicples."

That's what you call "not hard", just to buy a piece of software? Somehow I think if the inflated price was justified, it would be easier to prove than that.

"...direct your requests and comments to a more proper location (such as the customer service department of DR)"

I am doing that, but I'm getting more response here :)

Forgot to address this bit:

She said "I believe", not "I am certain". Indicates she wasn't certain she had.

So if I say "I believe God exists" it means I'm not certain God exists?

Come on, admit it...you're a CL stooge. You're as good as they are at completely side-stepping the issue, creating strawmen, and waving a hand in the air as an explanation. Oh, no.....you've found me out. ;-)

I always thought "Because I say so" stopped being a valid argument as soon as one outgrows Kindergarten. LOL.

That's true, "JoePublic".

I wonder when you forgot it?

*Dear XENOPHOBS, most societys across the pond at least try to compensate for the inevitable unfairness of live:

I.e. they feed the hungry, give to the poor and heal the sick.

They usually also like a clean environment and therefor encourage their citizens to save precious energy.

Thats the reason why energy costs are generally a bit higher in Europe.*

If a people choose to live under socialism, then they had best be prepared to pay the high costs of such a system.

shrug

On into the future, we'll continue to pay less than you do. And not just for software.

That is -- until such a time as we go totally socialist, ourselves (hopefully never). At that point, then we'll have the privilege of over-paying for everything, too. Plus high unemployment rates, etc, etc, etc.........

*Come on, admit it...you're a CL stooge. You're as good as they are at completely side-stepping the issue, creating strawmen, and waving a hand in the air as an explanation.

Oh, no.....you've found me out.

;-)*

It's heartening to see that you are every bit as accurate in this as you are in other matters.

How is complaining about the price going to change it? Are you going to haggle them down to a price more suitable to you? I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but really, if you don't think the price is worth it.... don't buy the product. It's your money, you decide... Capitalism at its best!

This thread started by pointing out that our FTA means THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL TAXES OR DUTIES added to the US prices.

Elementary economics are difficult to follow, I know.

Even within the borders of the US itself, some people are paying $1.79/gallon for gasoline, while people in other parts of the country are paying over $2.35/gallon for the same product.

It's interesting to note that the higher prices tend to be found in those states with the greatest tendencies towards socialistic thinking (higher taxes, etc.). These areas also tend to be places with higher unemployment rates than the rest of the nation -- along with other sluggish economic trends in general. Such as businesses fleeing the state, and then relocating to other states with lower taxes, etc..

For those that didn't notice. The international shipping office is in the UK therefore subject to UK laws and pricing. Not every company can afford to have their own shipping house in the US, national or international. They probably choose DR because it does both.

"My experience with buying the pre-order of P5 from Curious Labs was we could pay in US dollars (although then with the very low exchange rate - it cost an arm and a leg) Shipping was around about US$11 I think for International Air Mail. The shipment landed at Sydney by Airborne Express, then went to Customs for our Goods and Service Tax (GST) charge to be assessed. Customs then rang you with the charge, which you had to pay before it was released for delivery."

Pointlady - can you remember how much GST you were charged or how they worked it out, was it based on the current exchange rate with the currency it was purchased in? May help us Aussies out to know how much more moola we may have to part with when our expensive boxes reach our shores.

"Some Australians who ordered P5 had problems because there was no Phone No on the delivery docket and their P5 was held in limbo by customs."

I can't remember if DR asked for a phone number, from memory they got an address but not a state, at least they got the postcode. So let's hope it all goes well this time around - but I really can't see any Aussies opening their copy of P6 in time for Easter.....

Hi, I have 3 people from this thread that have mentioned not receiving an IM back from me are MacLean, tyd2 and BAM which I show in my log that I did IM back so I'm wondering if there was a problem in delivery? I'll go back this afternoon and try again. Are there anymore that haven't received an answer back from an IM regarding registration number issues or not having received the coupon offer that they qualified for? With kind regards, Katherine

"A more accurate comparison would be you submit a product to Renderosity and state your wholesale price and sign a fulfilment contract. You provide them with the price in your native currency, and they they do the rest -- including pricing the product according to whatever agreement you have established."

Exactly the point I was making - CL's sales will be affected by this - Australia is a not a country of 6 people, we are a Country with a population of about 20 million, 6 States and 3 time zones!, something that a lot of overseas people don't realize, and those that have spoken up here are not the only people who use Poser in this Country.

I have never said this was an issue with CL but an issue with their chosen distribution agent.

CL's continued use of DR to distribute their product to the southern hemisphere must at some stage affect the sales of their product here

Just bear in mind that those who have spoken up here are 5 or 6 people who pre-ordered, many are waiting for the release before purchasing an "unknown" product.

I Think we may be lucky and sneak just under the amount required for GST to be imposed - can someone confirm my calculations?

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4376#e987

keyze - So your son 'speeks' 3 languages does he? Does he 'right' them too? ;o) bshafer - the big one missing from that cool pic is the classic 'your/you're'. :] Fishnoise

Tastiger, I just got of the Phone to Australian Customs to ask about what happens here when the shippment arrives in Australia. GST will apply - that is our tax. It will be assessed on the product cost in Australian Dollars when they receive it at the current day's rate of exchange. The lady also said that we in Australia are only subject to our GST tax, not VAT for that does not appy to us. However Digital Rivers might factor some other costs into the charge, but essentially - we are only subject to GST. She also said that the electronic handling fee is based on products over AUD$250 so maybe this is what you are referring to. Telephone Customs yourself and ask, cause I may have misunderstood this part. I do still have my documents for when I purchased P5, I got the full version. This landed in Sydney on 13th Sept 2002 via Airborne Express (Internation Express) and from what I can ascertain the shipping was $US28.52. GST came to $AUD 99.43 which was based on the price of $US329.09 and converted into Aust dollars based on the rate at the time = $AUD 599.05 from which the GST was assessed. Mind you, the exchange rate back then was very low ($US1 = $AUD .50, (can't remember exactly). I ended up being charged on my credit card $AUS 771.60 for the program but this does not include the GST of $99.43 which had to paid upfront to Customs before it was released for delivery. Regarding the Phone No being shown on the delivery docket - well mine was, Customs telephoned me with the GST charge to pay. At the time on the forum - there were a couple of others whose program was in this shipment, whose phone Nos were not on the docket for whatever reason, and until it was pointed out - their program was being held in limbo by customs and until they contact them, they were wondering where it was. If there is not a phone No to contact re GST, I do not know if they mail you an invoice, because mine was thankfully for the Shipping Dept of Curious Labs (at the time) had my name correct, my street & No correct, but not the suburb or State I lived in. I live in NSW and it was address to me, my street, but in Bendigo, Victoria and if I had not of made numerous STD telephone calls to track it, it would have been sent back to Curious Labs as undeliverable. It did in fact take a trip to Bendigo, Vic first mind you but with my phone calls, I finally tracked down who the Courier Co was who was supposed to deliver it, and a very kind lady there found it for me. Anyway, you asked for this information - so I hope it helps you understand. I do suggest you ring Australian Customs yourself for any clarification. Jan

Extract: "So if I say "I believe God exists" it means I'm not certain God exists?" Comment: Yes. Extract: "That's what you call "not hard", just to buy a piece of software? Somehow I think if the inflated price was justified, it would be easier to prove than that." Comment: No, it is not hard to educate oneself. The effort would provide you with benefits above and beyond the simple purchase of software online. The price is not inflated. It is set according to an exchange rate predetermined by Digital River. They, in turn, do not use a standard, but apparently their own system for doing so that likely takes into acocunt their costs for handling additional currencies. So, thus far, we have dealt with several potential reasons for the additional cost, all of which are representative, and none of them have anything to do whatsoever with the trade agreement. 1 - Currency exchange rates 2 - infrastructure costs 3 - 3rd Party fees 4 - currency handling costs 5 - UK customs rules (since world wide fulfillment is handled from somewhere other than the us, it is not governed by us structures) Additional ones as well. So there are most certainly valid reasons for the additional cost -- all of which have nothing directly to do with CL. Earilier in the thread you speak of never lying down in the face of unfairness. I'll respond to that with pick your battles carefully. Af for saying that you called them a thief -- yes. And I can do so -- it is neither disparaging or reputation destroying. Were I to call you a thief, the situation would be different. I wouldn't, either, without evidence, which I strongly suspect I would never encounter as 1- I'm not looking, and 2 - You aren't likely to steal to the best of my knowledge.

"I live in NSW and it was address to me, my street, but in Bendigo" Thats Ok maybe I'll get your copy then - I'm in Bendigo. However to the point - Just waded through the Customs website and spoke to them and the news is we shouldn't have to pay Excise or GST as the total amount payable would be under $50. Although, UPS may try to collect this amount from us - if they do Customs has suggested we clear it ourselves. If this confuses anyone - that makes two of us, but I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread or off list.. May as save some money if we can...

*Extract:
"So if I say "I believe God exists" it means I'm not certain God exists?"

Comment:

Yes.*

No.

In this case my belief would be my "mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something", not my uncertainty about something.

I make the assumption that when people tell me they "believe" something, they "have confidence in the truth or value" of the claim. You obviously choose to interpret them as being less certain, "to have an opinion; think". Yes, there is ambiguity. (quotes from dictionary.com)

Comment:
No, it is not hard to educate oneself. The effort would provide you with benefits above and beyond the simple purchase of software online.

Actually I have studied most of the subjects you mentioned, as part of my Degree and my Advanced Certificate in Business Programming. Must've missed the one subject that explains this particular price discrimination... But anyone who says surviving the boredom of economic theory is "not hard" is a better man than me ;)

So, thus far, we have dealt with several potential reasons for the additional cost, all of which are representative, and none of them have anything to do whatsoever with the trade agreement.

...and none of which explain why I should pay more to download Poser 6.

1 - Currency exchange rates
I am asking, nay, begging to pay in $US. Let me and my bank worry about these costs.

2 - infrastructure costs
Same for me to download as anyone else.

3 - 3rd Party fees
Isn't it the same 3rd party we're all dealing with? If the discrimination comes only from them then it's costing them sales and it's a bad business choice.

4 - currency handling costs
See 1.

5 - UK customs rules...
Speaking of education, Australia is not part of the UK ;)

I'm hearing lots of theories and waffle, but I'm still waiting for the smoking gun. Just itemize the price of the software itself (the same for everyone), plus the other costs that bring it up to the price Australians are being charged for the download. Not economic theory, not hypotheses, not "potential reasons", not vague, unidentified "other ones as well", but the actual, factual costs involved in the specific purchase I'm talking about.

Just show me what they are and I'll be happy to pay them.

Earilier in the thread you speak of never lying down in the face of unfairness.
I'll respond to that with pick your battles carefully.

Hey, all I'm doing is typing words to try and make a point, it's not that much effort. Trust me, I have enough in reserve in case I need to fight any real "battles". And it's kind of fun to spar...except with XENOPHONZ, who's just a compassionless NeoCon who can't keep to the point ;)

"Af [sic] for saying that you called them a thief -- yes. And I can do so"
I was just taking the piss. Actually, you didn't:

"It might also educate you on the potential trouble that could be garnered by calling Digital River a crook in a semi-public record..."

Doesn't accuse me of anything directly at all :)

Extact: "But anyone who says surviving the boredom of economic theory is "not hard" is a better man than me ;)" Comment: In my experience, it was bring a good cd and tape the lecture, then apply the prinicples on a smaller scale that night in the local bar. Made it quite easy ;) Although recovering enough from really good study periods for a test was sometimes problematic. Extract: "...and none of which explain why I should pay more to download Poser 6." (plus additional) Comment: they do. 1 - DR determines (for some unfathomable reason that begs for derision) what currency format you can use. They choose to not allow purchase in USD for folks ourside the US. On the surface, this just screams idiocy in action -- but, in truth, judgement should be deferred until investigation reveals the reason they choose to do it that way. I certainly would not, and someone wiser in business than I recently asked proceeded to laugh in wonder when it was described. Nevertheless, this directly affects your rate -- in short, you cannot pay for it in USD. 2 - The actual bandwidth spent to download for you may be the same as for everyone else, but that does not mean that the costs for equipment to allow that download are the same. SInce fulfilment is done out of the UK for the worldwide market, the costs for equipment may be (and likely are) higher than they are for equipment in the us. Large download systems such as this are not the same as one's household server set up or even the same as the system employed by Renerosity -- they are typically much larger in scale and costs and capability. In short, Enterprise class servers and systems -- Something DR is rather proud to note they have so they can meet the obligations they contract for. THis directly affects the cost of your download as a whole -- and usually to a higher cost than similar fulfilment from a US server. 3 - Indeed, you hit it on the head with this one. It is bad business. 4 - deja vu -- see 1 ;) 5 - I am aware that Australia is not part of the UK. You seem to have misunderstood the comment. DR's set up is such that all non-US purchases are handled from the UK. SInce DR is the seller, and they re handling it through the UK, they must operate according to UK rules, not US. One possible extension of this factor could result in an issue in handling the currency conversion rates among all denominations other than USD -- if so, then that's further evidence of unwise activity. As for factual/actual -- you won't get it here. Here is only educated guesses. It is almost certain that Katherine has no idea herself -- it is outside her role within the company. Indeed, it is quite possible that CL cannot itemize the cost themselves since they are not handling that end of things. DR, on the other hand, likely could -- but most certainly will not do so in the forum, and most likely wouldn't do so in a public manner or a manner that would allow it to become public as well. An itemized cost would include revelation of potentially sensitive business data that no company with decent lawyers would share. In short, it costs more to buy it outside the US, and, other than asking CL to review (and hopefully change) the contract with DR when it is due for such, there is little that can be done about it but decide wether the value of the program to you is equal to the price that you will have to pay for it. (On the other hand, your question in a different (though related) thread likely should not have been asked -- you simply should have gone for it.Probably still should. Strikes me as the best solution to the problem -- use the inherent weaknesses of DR's system against them. I most certainly would do so in such a case, myself -- but I'm a cheap bastard.)

Well, jcbwms, I think we've run out of things to argue about :) It's been a pleasure.

(I'll just add that I said "none of which explain why I should pay more to download Poser 6", not "why I do have to...";) )

But the irony of all this is that, so far, Digital River are the only ones agreeing that I should be able to pay in $US!

When I first told them I was an Australian wanting to pay in $US but couldn't, they said "The error you are reporting indicates a missing or corrupt online store cookie." No doubt a standard reply to cover a lot of problems, but when I followed up that allowing cookies didn't solve the problem, they sent me the direct link to the US store and said to use that!

Unfortunately, when I try to purchase it says "The products you have selected are not available in your area." (This may also be a problem if someone buys it on my behalf. I may be locked out of downloading it if I'm not from the right area.)

Wouldn't it be funny if my whining pointed out a circumstance DR had overlooked...and actually changed something!

I just want to point out one error of the thinking of those that are complaining about the price for a Download Version. CL contracted with Digital River to distribute Poser 6. The pricing of Poser 6 is the same, whether you download or buy box. The only savings offered for those Downloading is Shipping. All pricing is based on the Box Version. This means that CL is offering the Download Version as a convienance, not as a price point. Most companies do this that also sell Boxed Software. JASC, Corel, Norton, etc... Sometimes you can find the Box version cheaper (Norton is a good example of that) Some companies also offer a different Price Point for Download software. Most often these versions do not include a manual. I have seen boards where customers sit around and whine because they need to buy the box to get the manual, and want to know why they just can not download the manual. The comment about Stable Pricing is also common. I buy magazines that should be cheaper at times or at others more expensive depending on the exchange rate, but the publisher sets a price and stays with it until they determine they need to change it. One last comment: All of you that are complaining. If you were getting a better deal due to changes in the exchange rate, would you be whining this much about trying to pay more, since it was not fair pricing? If not, you need to either clam up and buy the software or not buy. Now if you truly would argue that you should pay more and would put this energy in trying to pay more, then go right ahead and keep this thread going!

"One last comment: All of you that are complaining. If you were getting a better deal due to changes in the exchange rate, would you be whining this much about trying to pay more, since it was not fair pricing?" My final word on the subject - as we HAVE to pay in Euros anyway... As was pointed out to me yesterday on a Daz Forum. Yes we may be a bunch of "Whinging Aussies" but wasn't there a point in history when a group of people somewhere who were unhappy about fair trade and reasonable pricing dumped a load of goods in a harbour? But maybe that's just folk lore....

Yes there have been problems with it. I have had a notice of IM's but when I click the link they vanished. None there. I've had IM's that I've sent vanish.
If your IM is longer than the specified characters (ask, I can't remember) it will appear to send but will in fact vanish with no notice.

It needs serious work.

'I have 3 people from this thread that have mentioned not receiving an IM back from me are MacLean, tyd2 and BAM which I show in my log that I did IM back so I'm wondering if there was a problem in delivery? I'll go back this afternoon and try again' Katherine, I got the new IM you sent. I just want to say a big 'Thanks' to you and Tori for sorting thing out. Got my promo code and pre-ordered. mac

Me too. Thanks