As has always been the case with Poser products, the program itself has amazing capabilities and is wonderful to use. That said, the stock figures continue to be a major step backward from the already excellent Daz figures. Daz's figures are obviously done using digitizing techniques based on physical models whereas the Curious Lab figures always appear to be done by the human hand alone. I'm all for art from the human hand, but thats not the point of the base figures; rather, they should be as physically accurate as possible, then let artists morph and modify to their tastes. Such is the case with Jessi for example... a nice face certainly, but the body is way off and its noticeable to any eye. The fusion of Daz's figures and CL's Poser has always been the great symbiotic relationship...I hope it continues.

I suspect I'll be coming to similar conclusion soon myself: P6 = excellent features, Daz figures = best models. I remain hopeful that talented morph artists around here will improve on default Jessi's shortcomings, and I hear CL intends to patch her ugly feet and ankles.

Well the beauty is that u can still use Daz figures with Poser 6. So its a win-win. I just wish they'd figure some way to work better together as company's so we'll all come out ahead.

accually.......you could always use daz figures, period its an obj file for the character, which can load to most any 3d programs now, but as for the morphs, thats limited more towards poser yes, but only the only program and a large portion of art is just stills (1 frame) so even if daz does change the morph ability to not be able to use old figures, it would (besides the fact that it would hurt poser bad) just be loaded into a program, morph the character, and export obj file and import to poser more work yes, but economicly they wont change it or they take a big hit, and people wont like poser due to more work :) plus if changed, just having the ability to morph there, daz or someone would make a convert program worst case more money drain ;o but the figures will never be unusable so

That said, the stock figures continue to be a major step backward from the already excellent Daz figures.<<<

wrong

Daz's figures are obviously done using digitizing techniques based on physical models<<<

then how did vicki'e head get to be bizarrely out of proportion to her 'body?' The head/body ratio is that of an amazon queen's body with Mia Farrow's head stuck on. Yet you expound that the model should be accurate to life. Her legs have no shapliness, her waistline is thick, her hips are ill-defined. There are major problems with her shoulders, arms, elbow bend, which are not all DAZ's fault, but still they make Vicki look bizarre.

Such is the case with Jessi for example... a nice face certainly, but the body is way off and its noticeable to any eye. <<<

You will regret saying this. First, you are obviously blind to Vicki's problems. Next, you are WAY too early on Jessi. Didn't it occur to you that the very obvious difficulties with jessi could be due to an error? You should have waited until the content SR (now in progress, if you had read these boards) was released. This is a 110,000 poly major model with fundamental superiority to Vicki's abberant form, even though now -- today -- what you see is quite wrong. When things get straightened out, Vicki will be equalled and passed.

As for James vs Mike? The game, for all intents and purposes, is already over even before it starts (James has not begun aftermarket sales yet.)

I would add the polite 'in my opinion' but that is NOT the tone with which this tread was initiated.

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 03/24/2005 00:09

Well the beauty is that u can still use Daz figures with Poser 6. So its a win-win. I just wish they'd figure some way to work better together as company's so we'll all come out ahead. <<<

It's odd. I think there is probably a mutual respect and a certain amount of goodwill between the two companies. But they are NOT in sync. The Daz characters will "work" in Poser6. But Daz will continue to develope their own app (Studio) and they have a deeper level in development for their characters (VickiePro.) Meanwhile, despite the opinions on this thread, Jessi and James WILL form the base of a significant marketplace for merchants and challenge Vicki and Mike.

I liken it to Apple and Microsoft. A certain amount of respect. Each making use of the other, but NOT in sync, even suing each other once in a while. But isn't that good for us? Doesn't it mean 'we all come out ahead?' Wouldn't you like the prices to come down for the DAZ-based products, as will happen as this challenge emerges?

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 03/24/2005 00:20

How good Jessi turns out will depend entirely on support from merchants. If she gets support then she's got a very good chance of being equal to V3, if she doesn't then we'll probably see CL stop really trying to compete with figures and just concentrate on the proggie itself. It would be a waste of their time to create further figures if these new ones fail to gain support again.

Although I don't have Poser 6 yet, I can, and do agree with Opera here on the problems with V3 and other unimesh characters. You need a good knowledge of anatomy, and more in particular the hyper-complex shoulder-girdle (attached to the body with one! joint where the claviculi meet the breastbone under the neck, and apart from that all muscles) to get a decent looking shoulder.
This is not a real critique of Daz' work though because they were limited to a method of creating joints that is outdated. The main problem is that a new method cannot be implemented without causing the old meshes, which means all that was ever created, become useless.

On the other hand: it is a bit sad to have to read that the new Poser characters do have a lot of problems from the very first start. Over at RDNA I saw images of the feet, the ankles, the hands, and I cannot understand how these were not seen before the new app. was made public. These are no "bugs" in coding, but simple lack of insight in character building. And that is a real pity, even more as it comes from a company that has been under fire for years for P5 and its "hiccups".

Message edited on: 03/24/2005 00:59

Aeneas, As optimistic as I am about the ultimate outcome for Jessie's huge success, I agree that right now it is a botch and a stumble at the start. But I am buoyed by this: no such blunder was made with James! He is great. The poly count is about the same, around 110,000, and his mesh must be in a family with Jessi, so something just went wrong with the rigging of Jessi. I predict it will be fixed, including a possible new rig, and the blunder out of the gate will be long forgotten in a month or two. In other words...far from fatal, either for the character or for Curious Labs. When you look past this, to the long term, the other thing you said is more significant..."The main problem [for Daz] is that a new method [of rigging] cannot be implemented without causing the old meshes, which means all that was ever created, become useless." Daz is sutured into the Unimesh, almost assuredly for VickiePro and beyond. ::::: Opera :::::

Farside, "How good Jessi turns out will depend entirely on support from merchants. If she gets support then she's got a very good chance of being equal to V3, if she doesn't then we'll probably see CL stop really trying to compete with figures and just concentrate on the proggie itself. It would be a waste of their time to create further figures if these new ones fail to gain support again. " I respectfully disagree. The included characters with Poser do NOT have to achieve the amazing results of V/M, in sales of characters (there is no sale of characters) or in the giant third-party wave that accompanies (especially) Vickie. That's because J&J are simply PoserMale and PoserFemale; they support the sale of the program. That's their job. Poser = $249.00 and that's a nice ticket. Daz has no such ticket. When I said Jessi will equal Vicki, I did not mean in sales of character paks and clothing. I meant in quality of model and general appeal. This will gradually lead to a new paradigm. Current paradigm: beginners purchase poser, fool around with the included figures (ho-hum), go on the boards and hear vickie this and vickie that and very soon download Vickie and begin to work into the entire Daz ethos. New paradigm: beginers purchase poser, fool around with the included figures (ZOWIE!) and learn Poser with the native models. They can get Pamela Sue Jessi just as easy as Pamela Sue Vickie and make NJIATWAS, if that is their intention. James will give them little reason to seek out another male figure. I am not saying this new paradigm with eliminate V/M/Daz...just cut into it. The ball will swing over. Then if/when Daz comes out with a new Pro line for the Unimesh and gets Studio to do A LOT more, there will be a new paradigm of competition....'Are you a Poser j/j person or are you a Studio v/m person." Daz will be the one with the uphill battle, because the current baseline for Studio is Zero$, while entry into the Poser world will drive revenue to CL because of the established $249. Certainly, Studio will eventually have a price and who knows, Poser might have to come down in price. The competition and cross-using will be great for all of us. ::::: Opera :::::

I've got a huge investment in V3 and M3 add-ons, textures, etc, and I probably won't give the new CL figures more than a brief look when my copy arrives. If the merchants in the marketplace choose to make a large number of products for them, then I may take a deeper look, but new figures were not a factor at all when I purchsed P6. To me, CL is a software company, and DAZ is a 3D content company.

Hmmm. I see one assumption that may be a fallacy here; that Poser is locked into the current way of boning and jointing. A new system like weight mapping wouldn't require the removal of the older axial system, you know. It could be left in place for the backwards compatibility with existing figures (although I'd be willing to bet that there would be a flurry of people who created a new boning setup for their favorite older model.

Attached Link: Body Topology

I see what Blitter means. Jessi and James have something like 50% more polys than V3 and M3, but they look lower-res. And it's not all the bad joints. They have a slightly toony look. Several people have commented that they look a bit like Mayadoll. Mayadoll is supposed to be an anime figure, though, not realistic.

V3 and M3, IMO, look at lot more realistic. Yes, joints can be improved. Yes, the heads are a little small (but that's easily fixed). But overall, their shapes are much more realistic. Vicky's waist may be thicker than Jessi's, but if you look around, a lot more women are shaped more like her than like Jessi. Very few real people have Jessi's wasp waist.

That said, I see no reason why these figures can't be popular, if they are re-jointed. They seem to have the resolution to morph into more realistic shapes. And perhaps more importantly, a lot of Poser artists aren't interested in a super-realistic look. Look at the popularity of The Girl, Aiko, Animedoll, etc. - a lot of people prefer a more stylized look. Realism is not the be-all and end-all for everyone.

But the joints are a problem. IMO, CL should fix them, and issue an update. Third-party adjustments never catch on as much, and are confusing for newbies. Merchants will support the updated version if it comes from CL. There will be a lot less support if it's a third-party thing.

Been mulling over what Farside said. Maybe he's right, and CL will just give up on figures altogether, and concentrate on their app. They don't seem be takng figures very seriously. The improvements to Poser are impressive; the content seems to have gotten much less attention.

I browsed through Content Paradise this morning, and the vast majority of stuff is for the DAZ figures. Not surprising, I guess, since most of it is from Rosity and RDNA. Still...it seems likely that CP will lead newbies toward DAZ and away from the P6 figures, even though DAZ is not an official "partner."

As for the rigging problems...I think DAZ has a head start there. They have already incorporated more advanced rigging into D|S, though it's not being fully used yet. I suspect that V3 Pro will have two versions: a D|S version, with superior rigging, and a Poser version, with the same old rigging.

I fear CL has screwed up, if they really wanted to challenge DAZ on content. With V3 and M3 being free now, along with D|S, the P6 figures should have been something really special to lure users away from the DAZ side of the force. The figures seems ill-designed to me, rushed and last-minute. IMO, CL should have bought the RDNA morph packs and included them with Poser 6. DAZ is giving away free figures and a free program now, so CL has to provide more with their figures, if they want to give them a chance. DAZ makes you pay for morph packs; up them one, and give away morph packs for James and Jessi.

As it is, I wonder how many people will rush out to buy the morph packs and other add-ons. James and Jessi have promise, at least if they are re-jointed, but the Poser market isn't likely to wait. P6 is being released now, now is when the iron is hot. In a month or two, everyone will have moved onto the next big thing. (Kaimira? V3 Pro?)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2176505

"Jessi and James have something like 50% more polys than V3 and M3, but they look lower-res." There's two versions of these models. High res and normal res. I don't think the normal res versions have more polys than V3 and M3, and they look fine when you use smoothing to render. "They have a slightly toony look. Several people have commented that they look a bit like Mayadoll." I don't see anything toony about them. It all depends on the texturing and lighting, as Cath H. has clearly shown in her James thread. All Poser figures can be made to look "toony" if you use bad textures and poor lighting.

Cath always does great textures. She's made textures for Dork that are absolutely stunning.

The low-res versions of Jessi and James have a lot fewer polys than M3 and V3. They are roughly the resolution of V2.

When I said they looked toony, I didn't mean the texture or the lighting. I meant their bodies, really. The shape, not the textures. Jessi is lovely, but not terribly realistic. That tiny waist and super-long legs...even your average supermodel doesn't have proportions like that. Her knees are way too pronounced to be realistic, ditto the muscles on her stomach. Perhaps "toon" was the wrong word to use. She looks more "comic-like" to me. Not as in funny, as in the sort of human figures you see in comic books, with exaggerated lines and muscles. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing; might be a smart thing to do, actually. Leave DAZ the realistic market, and carve out your own.

Of course, she has the resolution to be morphed into just about any shape, but the joints are a more serious problem. Jessi is jointed like Posette, which is why she poses so awkwardly. James' chest is better, but I think he still has no buttocks, like Dork.

maxxxmodelz said: "All Poser figures can be made to look "toony" if you use bad textures and poor lighting." They can be made to lok toony with good textures, good lighting, and a bit of talent and skill as well. Realism isn't the holy grail for everyone ;oP

All I have to say is that I HATE YOU ALL!!!!! geesh, this thread is just making me want P6 all that much more, but lack of proper funding prevents it (the wife wouldn't understand. She thinks if you aren't going to make $$$ from it or it's for the kid's education then it's a waste of $$. (j/k about the hating part I'm just so jealous, maybe I'll win the free copy, probably not though. Someone with 15 alias will win it >_< )

Thixen, the solution is obvious: become a merchant, and start making money from Poser. ;-) Either that, or start teaching your kids Poser, and tell your wife it's really educational....

yea my sons already running around the house asking me to make a girl with really big boobies (and he's only 6) she'd love that. ~_^

BTW the merchant idea is a distict possibility (why do you think I'm doing all that work on the Real Dragon Texture, it's practice for when I do a commerical one to sell, not of the dragon though. That one is free.)

Message edited on: 03/24/2005 10:57

Hi Dale! Your post kinda dropped in there...and there it sits. Let me ask a question, if you see this. Would the new joint system require re-programming poser? Changing the mesh on the models? ?? Can you say more about what type of project it would be, and why you think it has not been mounted as yet? ::::: Opera :::::

yea my sons already running around the house asking me to make a girl with really big boobies (and he's only 6) she'd love that.

o_O

Haven't you weaned that kid yet?

Er, well, maybe your wife will buy Poser 6 for you for Father's Day...if you promise you'll only play with Emotiguy while the kids are around. ;-)

"Several people have commented that they look a bit like Mayadoll. Mayadoll is supposed to be an anime figure, though, not realistic." Well I heard at RDNA that the Models were made by a successful Japanese modeller. (Parent company brings in a ringer?). I don't consider them to look "Toony" I do think they are slightly stylized, which I like. I am pretty much wed to using V3 in my movie since I have shot several scenes with her already, but I definately plan to use these new models a lot for secondary characters. (And you can bet Nea is gonna be a background character.)

"Slightly stylized" - I like it. Definitely a better description than "toony."

My own art tends toward the slightly stylized, rather than photorealism, so I might use these figures...but only if they fix them. Those images Schabber posted of James looked horrible. Bad shape, bad joints, bad textures, bad poses. It seems to me that the new content was pretty much an afterthought. It could have been great, with some beta-testing, but it appears they ran out of time.

are we using the same program?

Be VERY careful when you visit the Body Topology thread over at CGTalk maya forum as pages 5 and 6 (I went to 25 out of88!) contains a trojan called downloader.BES (appeared first March 16th). I guess I fould where it came from, but don't visit without an updated good quality virus scanner!Message edited on: 03/24/2005 13:20

Message edited on: 03/24/2005 13:20

"yea my sons already running around the house asking me to make a girl with really big boobies (and he's only 6) she'd love that." I remember when I was six all I wanted was big breasts but just to snuggle into, I remember is as being a very comforting sensation, trouble is all the girs that i interact with now seem to have none (my wife would refute this :) The P6 children look really great, much more realistic than the alternatives. "Very few real people have Jessi's wasp waist" Your right the new female really does look like a bee body lol, what a great comparison!

Opera; Yes, it would require some recoding of Poser, which is most likely the reason it hasn't been done yet. As I don't have access to the higher end programs that use weightmapping I can't say how involved it would be, but I do know that there is more than enough difference in behavior that the current scheme could co-exist side by side, just because there is no commonality between the two rigging systems. As for characters....well, Pixar proved you can dual rig a character quite handily (Elastigirl in The Incredibles; the stretching effect was controlled by a different boning rig, and they switched between them on the fly in rendering and animating. A Poser level dual rig couldn't be quite so exotic, but it could be done). The hope here is for Poser 7. CL did basically what they said they would do for P6; fix and stabilize (minus the OpenGL problems), saving any major code work for the next release. With the support of E-Frontier, this would probably be the time to develop a new boning system. And for the users to begin nudging for same. Whether or not a figure mesh needed recutting...or any cutting at all...would depend on exactly what they did and how. It probably could be done without recutting...or at worst,simply fusing the figure obj into one integrated unit with the correct winding order, and having two obj's; one for the old bone system, and one for the new.

I can't contribute to the figure debate because P6 hasn't arrived yet. But I do want to say something.

This whole CL vs DAZ thing may have been an issue in the past, but the only reason it's still going is because we users keep talking about it. Before I say anything else, read this quote from Steve Yatson at CL (posted 2 days ago in this forum)

'I do want to say however that Dan Farr and DAZ have been very supportive of the Poser 6 release and of Curious Labs, as we are of DAZ and their contributions to the Poser community. Everyone involved would like to see these types of suggestions and assumptions a thing of the past.

Steve Yatson
Curious Labs'

Think about it logically. These guys are all in the same business, but there's very little reason for conflict. DAZ sells content. CL sell software. What's the problem? Why do they have to be at war? They're interdependent, not enemies. DAZ depend on CL software and the poser market. Cl depend on DAZ for older content rights and to keep the content market alive.

Whatever happened in the past with the P5 release and the CL EULA seems to long gone and forgotten by both sides. Can't we give it a rest too?

mac Edit - I just want to add that this isn't aimed at the original post or any other posters, but rather, the general community assumption that one company has to outdo the other.

Message edited on: 03/24/2005 17:07

Dan did say over at the DAZ forums that they would be supporting Poser 6. (And there was much rejoicing!)

I don't think they are enemies. However, I think a certain amount of tension is inevitable, if only among the users. ;-) Time and resources are limited, and DAZ will no doubt be juggling support for Poser 6 with support for D|S, Bryce, etc. It will only get worse if Poser 7 has a new rigging system.

erm actually Poser Six has a new rigging enhancements ;) hence the lack of need for buttocks.. which are a kludge in the first place.

'Dan did say over at the DAZ forums that they would be supporting Poser 6' Well, I know that DAZ didn't beta-test P6, but they are getting advance copies for product compatibilty testing, etc. I'm pretty sure DAZ won't make the mistake they made with P5 support. The thing is, I saw people shouting for P6 support (at DAZ) before it was even released, but the one question these people haven't asked themselves is 'What does P6 support mean?'. AFAICS, P6 support won't be a lot different from P5 support. A lot of the features, like lighting, aren't included in many packs. I doubt if DAZ will be selling texs or clothes for J & J, so uvs and JPs aren't an issue. Dynamic cloth? Possibly. And what's left? Well, the main thing is the material room, which (apparently) is the same in P5 and P6 (at least, as far as compatibilty goes). P5/P6 materials need to be embraced by DAZ big-time. The thing to remember is that a good chunk of DAZ's output isn't created by them, so a lot depends on how the merchants take to P6. Speaking personally, I hate P5. I have to force myself to open it, and I only use it because I want my products to be compatible. I'm VERY hopeful that P6 will be more usable and I'll use it willingly. If a lot of merchants feel the same way, support will increase. 'However, I think a certain amount of tension is inevitable, if only among the users' Yeah, that's what I'm banging on about - the users. If we could all drop it, it would probably be forgotten about. User rivalry will probably never end, but it's important to keep pointing out that it's no longer an issue for the protaganists themselves, just the rest of us. mac

I'd be happy with P5 support at this point. I cannot believe that the new Millennium Preschoolers don't have P5 MATs. P4 MATs but not P5? When P6 was about to be released? Mutter, grumble.

Don't expect the users to drop it any time soon. What, do you expect us to stop arguing about Mac vs. PC vs. Linux, too? ;-)

Sixus1 admitted that the lack of buttocks was one step backward to go a step forward. Which suggests to me that maybe the advances in Poser rigging aren't quite there yet, but will be in the future.

He also said that they chose to eliminate the buttocks because it made posing easier, especially with IK, and it made making conforming clothing for the figures easier.

Not sure this "one step backwards" was a good idea. It's easier for animators and easier for clothing makers, but there's no benefit for the vast majority of Poser users, who neither animate nor make clothing. :-/

Well I'm glad my thread brought on such a good deal of discussion. I knew I'd see some good opinions on both sides of the fence. Poser community never let's down! :)

I've got to ask a newbish question and I ain't afraid to look dumb askin' it.... Khai: >> erm actually. Poser Six has a new rigging enhancements ;) hence the lack of need for buttocks.. which are a kludge in the first place.<< erm = external morphs, right? Can you explain how buttocks are/were a kludge, why is it and advantage to leave them out, and most of all, this does not mean that you can't give James and his girlfriend a proper cute tushie, right? Because although Randy says it's "not an advantage" to many, it can't be hard to "dial a tush", right? ::::: Opera :::::

Blitter, you might be happy with the 'results' of your post, but IMO your subject line was incendiary and polarizing, your top post was opinionated. Then at the end of it and in post 3 you are all 'peace and harmony.' Yet you never DID defend (or recant) your claim that the Daz Figures "reign supreme." Make a divisive subject then watch while people challenge you, but you don't participate? Do you wish to comment on that approach? ::::: Opera :::::

I have a ton of pictures from Playboy and other magazines. There are women who have bodies like Jessi. I don't think her body is unrealistic. Uncommon -- yes, but not unrealistic, except in a "politically correct" (lack-of) sense. Maybe we should ask Howard Stern to do a Playboy Evaluation on her. He'd problably say "Jessi's definitely UNREAL!!" One place where CL really got it right is in the Z-axis. The DAZ women are as thick as men -- somthing that may be realistic, though very undesireable. Jessi's thickness is correct for her body type. When I bought P6, I was expecting to delete the content from my disk and use DAZ Characters. If CL fixes Jessi's problems, my V3 and A3 may join my SP3 in retirement.

Poser Six has a new rigging enhancements" Would someone please explain what these are? This is the second time someone's given this as a reason why the P6 figures are divided like P4s, yet no further explanation is given. Screenshots of the joint editor would be lovely :) Sorry if I seem agitated, but: (a) I'm waiting on the boxed shipment and (b) my vacation has been cut short by 2 days. So I keep myself sane by coming in here and soaking up all the info I can on P6, which is why short statements without explanations like that don't make me happy.

R. Hatch, I share your agitation. I've kinda asked three times in different threads for someone to post the full-body wireframe, any one of them for goodness sake. What I'd really like, and what I'll post when my Box arrives, is a fly-around or rotation animation of the mesh. Nada so far. ::::: Opera :::::

"Blitter, you might be happy with the 'results' of your post, but IMO your subject line was incendiary and polarizing, your top post was opinionated. Then at the end of it and in post 3 you are all 'peace and harmony.' Yet you never DID defend (or recant) your claim that the Daz Figures "reign supreme." Make a divisive subject then watch while people challenge you, but you don't participate? Do you wish to comment on that approach?" ::::: Opera ::::: March 19th 2005 Thread: "New DAz promotion" "I'd say this promo is a case of quiet desperation turning into braying panic. ::::: Opera :::::" "I rest my case that this is bush-league timing on the part of Daz but I withdraw from this thread"::::: Opera ::::: The use of assertion is no vice -- and needs no qualifier that it is an opinion -- if the speaker accepts responsibility for substantiation. This I accept and have done ::::: Opera ::::: :-)

Can you explain how buttocks are/were a kludge Because real human legs don't have a joint between the hip and the knee...

wolf, [my full blast rejoinder NOT posted here] frankly i regret posting that shot at blitter now, not because I 'take it back' content-wise, but because this thread has turned into a valuable discussion of other matters. I don't wish to ruin it further in a fight with you. Let's not escalate here. Want to go out in the street in front of the saloon and settle it there? Regretfully, Renderosity took down the OT forum "the den" recently. ::::: Opera :::::

There is really nothing to "settle" After all, readers can Draw their own conclusions ;-)