I was reading TerraDreamer's thread just now, and whilst scrolling past Xeno's inane warblings and the mod backslaps, it kinda struck me... You keep calling this an artists community, for and about art. Thats why 3 forums were closed down. So... the message you're basically sending is that art is pretty and never inspired by world events or anything profound happening in people's lives unless it's stated and/or executed in a prettified (cheesecake) way. Art is never born through debate Art is never born out of heated discourse Art is never born in hostility, depression, upset, the entire array of human emotions and behaviour, disgusting as they may be when on display. Since it's become customary to show off old masters to prove one's point, I can always trot out Picasso's Guernica and Dali's Visage of War (the one w/o tits) as examples. One of art's missions is to generate a response. You dim down the entire concept of it if the only response allowed is warm fuzzies and huggles in faerie or softcore t&a on display. And you must know it at some level, because it's REAL interesting to see how the rendo gallery staples NEVER make the rendo showcases in 3D world. ~S

You are welcome to your opinions we all have our own that is what makes us unique.

The three forums you mention were the OT forum, the Den, and the Tavern. These were closed due to continued fighting,name calling and general attacks against each other. We are a community for artist not a war zone We have a TOS which everyone signed they agree with when creating a account here. All we ask is that they abide by the TOS that isn't too much to ask.

We have pleanty of forums here for the artist no matter what programs they use. We would much rather spend our time helping our members then having to hand out warnings or bans.

SndCastie
Community Admin

Message edited on: 05/10/2005 15:36

Message edited on: 05/10/2005 15:37

Should I mention that, out there, in the real world of museums and galleries, you can run into artists that push the envelope, generate a response... and sometimes, that response is that their work is not included in exhibitions or downright banned. My point being that moderation of the content of an art gallery is not reserved to online content. I have another analogy to explain the reality of moderation at Renderosity. Imagine a bar, or a club, where people are welcome to come in, post their pictures on the walls and, yes, buy stuff while they are here. Would you mind if someone walked into that club, stood on a soapbox and started screaming about the end of the world, the state of religion or politics ? Would you find it surprising is the owners of the club called their bouncers or whatever security they have, and ask them to leave ? You may have the right of free speech - I guarantie you that you will not last long in any kind of bar or club if you start behaving in a way that the owners are not comfortable with. Yes - there are clubs that allow pretty extreme things. Even them have their limits. And there are clubs that accept only the whipsers of a library. They have their own limits. Think of Renderosity as a club, with its own limits, and life will become suddenly a lot easier :)

Hon, I was one of the first posters in the OT, met some of my best online friends in the VT and had my share of brawls in the Den. But that wasnt quite my point. So please, illuminate me: What do you define as an artist ? ~S

"We are a community for artist not a war zone We have a TOS which everyone signed they agree with when creating a account here." I joined long ago. The TOS that I signed and agreed to abide by is not the same TOS that is currently in place. I, too, wish that there was some sort of General Discussion forum, here. For example, when we had 911, I had the tv on, and spoke with real world folks in my little corner of the world, BUT....I could not wait to pop over here to see what the initial reaction was in other places. I remember asking what had happened, and originally being told that it was coincidence. Then, I asked if the crashes would be considered an "Act of War." For some reason, back then, this place was HERE for me, back then. Now, it is just another spot on the web I hit when I'm bored at work. Perhaps, you guys don't really realize what has been lost. Sure, you can cruise along on the Poser cottage industry as long as newbies flock to buy the program...but, hey...this place DID use to be about the Art, and, all the feelings that went along with it. Now, it is more about selling the "Tools" (sure you have forums for most of the programs...why not....most of them foster add ons of some sort). You could easily have a General Discussion forum, if you banned anyone from that forum who slipped into talking politics or religion. They wouldn't have to be site banned, just, banned from General Discussions. But, I know that won't happen. And, as far as spending time helping others....Spike used to write some killer modelling tutorials. Since he has joined the "staff", I have yet to see one. How, exactly, are we being helped? I am not clear on this...You see, those tutorials helped me ALOT.

"I joined long ago. The TOS that I signed and agreed to abide by is not the same TOS that is currently in place." the following is at the bottom of our TOS and has been there since the begining. **Renderosity reserves the right to change, alter or modify the Terms of Service as needed. All postings, past and present are subject to the most current terms of service. Spike had his hands full runing the forums and such not as much free time to do tutorials as he did when he wasn't on the Staff. He has stepped down so maybe he will start again who knows. Our Mods and Coords are here to help in their forums with questions and such. Each one is working on getting just this sort of things implimented into the forums of choice. We are working on getting a Mod and/or coord into every forum here for just this kind of thing. This takes time and hopefully we will accomplish what we have set out to do. As for the OT forums, It would be nice to have one I agree but we have tried it three times and they all end up the same. So it was decided that no other one will be opened. I hope I have answered some of your questions If there is anything else I can help you with feel free to ask within reason of course :O) SndCastie Community Admin

Poppi I joined long ago. The TOS that I signed and agreed to abide by is not the same TOS that is currently in place. At the bottom of the TOS it states the following: **Renderosity reserves the right to change, alter or modify the Terms of Service as needed. All postings, past and present are subject to the most current terms of service. There are great tutorials uploaded here quite often. We are working through some things with the team that will allow them the time to share their knowledge instead of having to spend their time putting out fires. As far as the OT discussion, this has been addressed several times and I really see no need in continuing to rehash again. Spinner, We did not say that art was not born through all the examples you sited above, of course art is inspired by everything around us. You can post gallery images here that are inspired by the things you mentioned as long as they are within the TOS guidelines as with any other site. Thank you, Stacey Community Manager

Whoops cross posted with Sandy:) Stac

so.... I asked you a question, sndcastie. Was it an unreasonable one ? ~S

LOL yea just saw that :O)

I was a strong participant in the OT and the Den. I also occasionally bought a round from kbennett in the Tavern and watched pearce raise himself from a drunken stupor over in the corner with that friendly waitress passed out next to him to join me (grin). I was extremely dissappointed when they were taken away.

That said, I wonder if perhaps the wrong feature is being emphasized. There is still much freedom to express oneself artistically through the galleries. There are still certain restrictions, but one can express most of the things discussed within the aformentioned forums through their art in the galleries. I miss the general discussion forums (very much!!!!), but should that be the focus of "a community for artists" - or should the galleries?

Should Renderosity serve as the birthing place of the art (through some of the general discussion) or the expressing place of the art?

I don't think I've seen these questions posed or discussed in any of the "we should have general disccussion forums" threads.

Bob-bob-Bobasaur!
(please pardon my fond homage to Poppi)

Message edited on: 05/10/2005 16:34

Stacie - my issue is that the fuzzies and huggles culture in the Poser specific realms of the site dumb down imagery and foster a culture where it's not about helping eachother, in general it's about being as inoffensive as possible. While I can respect the fact there is a very real need for a ToS with common guidelines, that ToS also calls for mods or coordinators being mature and even-tempered enough not to go on a thread shutdown rampage in the name of "artists helping eachother" and "community" Artists helping eachother, for instance, would typically result in screaming matches for some, as rendo already has an established culture in place for "nice only, please". I mean - the RIMjob didnt allow for a negative review, the store didnt allow negative reviews for ages, and merchants have had constructive crits on images pulled by hollering troll. Art is supposed to create and generate reactions - good and bad. It's not helping an artist out telling their plainly pedestrian T&A image is the best thing since michaelangelo, you know ? And THAT is what my initial post about - not to bemoan the demise of three forums, but the fact that chaos and conflict are also a part of art. So why not be a tad less triggerhappy ? ~S

I surely hope Spike does some more tutorials. Part of what is wrong here, now, is that there are less tutorials...free ones, that is, less quality free stuff, less chit chat and comardery (sp?)and more RULES...i can hang with the rules, but, it's the other stuff that makes me want to return. Am I the only one who also thinks that the quality of the galleries has gone down, as well? Once upon a time I was PROUD to post here. Now, I mostly render, and share with real world friends. (Because I am sort of ashamed to point folks toward the R'sity gallery of late. And THAT;s a REAL SHAME. However, it is true. Well, maybe, some enchanted day, I'll find the perfect Art site...with like minds and, giving spirits, and, I'll pull my gallery altogether and head off to that promised land. In the meantime, I can still hope for this place. Things changed once, perhaps, they will change again. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!! :*)

The only unreasonable question would be one that would ask me to devulge information I am not privy to devulge. Other then that I don't have a problem answering any question thrown at me that I have a answer to or can find the answer to or someone who can help. SndCastie Community Admin

So are you able to divulge what defines an artist, then? ~S

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=744779

many people have said over many years.... this is an art site provided that you are prepared to accept the rules. The rules are such that they exclude certain art styles, those ones that may be considered inflamatory, or even discussing said parts of art. WWW utopia doesn't exist. And poser porn really doesn't make enough money anymore. Lots of love.

To be honest, I don't think, honestly, there are truly two people on the planet who will define "artist" in the same way. To me, personally, an artist is one who conveys feeling, and transfers that feeling upon an audience, be it an audience of one, or of thousands. As for "the way things used to be"...as any community grows, there will be growing pains. Mods and admin had them every time they had to close yet another OT forum due to constant TOS violations. This community has grown in many ways, both good and bad. Just like any community, whether it be online or in the offline world. For example: In my apartment building, it has become an evictable offense to own a cat. Now, I, along with many responsible pet owners, not only rolled my eyes at that rule, but I did my best to fight it. My cat now resides with my mother in law after I saw the amount of money and trouble that the managers of the building had to go through to clean up an apartment after ONE bad cat owner. ONE. The expenses are transferred down to the tenants in fees that have ridiculous names that many tenants just sign away on. However, while I may think that the rule is ridiculous, I also know that the managers of the building have taken in pets on a case-by-case basis, and have been fairly lenient. However, after multiple violations from people who were previously considered ok to have the pet, or people who simply could not follow the rules, the rest of us have to literally pay for it. Is it fair? Nope. We had to send a family member to go live away from us. Is it real life? You betcha. As for Spike and his tutorials, you will have to ask Spike about that. We can't tell ya what we don't know. MS

"As for the OT forums, It would be nice to have one I agree but we have tried it three times and they all end up the same. So it was decided that no other one will be opened." Perhaps the reason none worked is because none of the input or advice from so many now, has been taken seriously and it is felt there is no real need for one, again, it's not being taken serious that artists do need a place to just be.. And there were actually 'four' forums really, although for some reason this place wants to forget the most popular of em all; because I hear the best one and worst one was that infamous 'Complaint and Debate' Forum that truly started it all and probably also dragged a lot of members here that got to know one another and as well became friends as well as bitter enemies through debates and daily whippings and yappings. As for the tavern, it really only ended up like an OT place because the others were taken away, something like is what's happening now, more and more, in this Community Forum, since members are confused as to just where to post stuff more general or personal. History..been here long enough now to have heard about it all. Gotta ask questions around here when there's such determination to squish the common logic that most members are asking for and would really like to have some place to mingle.. I think it won't be long before this here Community Forum gets close to disappearing too, you'll see that before another OT.. So, where?...and what's next when this Community Forum gets closed down too? Sign Language amongst the members in the gallery?

and whilst scrolling past Xeno's inane warblings

I love you too, spinner.

;)

sigh

Spinner has called my poor ramblings "inane warblings".

At long last -- I have achieved true greatness -- just as I always knew that I would.

Excuse me.......I have to go make a deposit.........

Hey, Xeno, at least I didn't imply you oinked ;-)

~S (typo edit)

Message edited on: 05/10/2005 17:23

One of art's missions is to generate a response.

If that's the goal, then some of us should be ranked among the masters.

At least within the lofty confines of Poserdom.

Who knows? Maybe the story will rank a $20.00 'personals' classified ad in Peoria's local paper -- only I can't seem to recall the name of the newspaper in Peoria.........

Hey, Xeno, at least I didn't imply you oinked ;-)

oink oink oink

O-I-N-K!!!!!!!!!!!!

Poppi is dead on RIGHT!!!

Open up a new general discussion forum and call it "The Church" or just "The Chapel." You certainly shouldn't get any rowdies and problem folks happening there, except maybe the odd online couples wondering if they might be able to have an online Wedding..lol!! "The Stable?"

The Pen. ;)

An artist is anybody who creates images. No need to attempt to deny them their right to think of themselves as artists. No need to imply that some are more equal than others, that some of them are artists and some of them are not. Who are we to judge?

Hey......we've already got a Chicken Coop.

Why not add a Pig Pen?

Then we'd be well on our way to providing a home for all of the poor, homeless farm animals.

In such a forum, we could discuss the accepted principle of some being "more equal" than others.

Thank you Mateo, for thinking the thoughts I didn't. It's so good to have you around for debates like these - we can always be sure to be provided with that extra _sancarlos touch of non-judgementalness to incite us with the warm fuzzies. The Sty, if I may ask. Anyway - I concur with Poppi and the rest. And I do think you're also doing the newbies a massive disservice by not allowing people anything else but candycoated kewlies. ~S

Okay then, how about a "Happy Forum" and a particular TOS for that forum stressing that ONLY happy thoughts are allowed to be posted there? Make the default colors for that forum pink. Then make sure to put your happiest moderator there, and we all have a wonderful new forum! If that doesn't make waves, here's more bright ideas, "Peace and Love Forum".."Hugs and Kisses Forum".."Teletubbies Forum"..

um. Pink is not a good colour around these parts, dear... ~S

In such a forum, we could discuss the accepted principle of some being "more equal" than others.

After all, we'd have gotten rid of the Mean Old Farmer ((abbreviated M.O.D. - the "F" is silent)) that used to run things.

And then we'd all be FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Pink is not a good colour around these parts, dear..." Oh, I remember why; Pink Pony? Okay, how about eggplant or rose? Another name? Eden? The Garden? The Temple of Love? Hands Up? Carnation Street? Peaceful Passings? Tranquil Thoughts? Walk With Moses?

A artist is one who create's something from the heart be it the new beginner or the old master. I consider myself a artist but only as mostly a hobby. I do it to relax and unwind when I have had a rough day. But each person like MorriganShadow said will have a different view on what a artist is. What is your idea of what a artist is? SndCastie

I hope that this doesn't disappoint anyone too badly -- but I've got places to go and things to do.

I'll get there in my great, big gas guzzlin' truck.

And it ain't pink, y'all.

It's white, as a matter of fact. Like the hat........

;)

I'll have to check back at this thread in a few hours. See where it's gone without my help.

See you 'round, spinner. I like you.

Maybe we'll dance again.

Doing away with those 3 forums won't solve anything. OT threads are just gonna pop up in existing forums. Notice the amount of slightly ot threads popping up here and the poser forum. You still have to deal with them time to time. It is just like sweeping the dirt under the rug. In the long run, they will creep up on you... Art is subjective. Restrictive art isn't art, merely propaganda. That's all I have to say. Now y'all have a good day.

"See you 'round, spinner. I like you. Maybe we'll dance again." So how about "The Dancing Forum?" Seems to work.. Salsa anyone??

In this friendly place they only can tell you, what is forbidden (7659 things or so), and if you are following these rules, than you are a artist for them. But if you don't, you are a pedophile or monster or dangerous or or or or or.... Greetz

...a Republican? (hey, had to ask.) For what it's worth, some of the best art on the planet has been borne of angst, adoration, fear, lust, anger, mourning, and even pure hate. Why not let a bit of it fly once in awhile? We may even get a better ratio of top-notch renders out of it. /P

But what does whining and flaming and complaining and stamping our widdle feet have to do with art? Wouldn't the time be better spent creating something rather than browbeating each other? As a non-artist who thought, stupidly, art was about originality and imagination, I don't get it. I guess that's why I'm not an artist. Thank goodness.

Bobasaur, Thank you. ;) XENOPHONZ, We might not agree on most topics, especially political, but for the most part I enjoy reading what you have to say. The html, though, is bothersome. Spinner, If we can't discuss things in an off-topic no-holds-barred forum such as The Coop, we can always show it in our art. Which is more effective: Guernica or a thousand words? A post might get buried or whisked out of sight, but a piece of art stands. Carolly

"A post might get buried or whisked out of sight, but a piece of art stands." (/me peeks at the biblical flood of "What's New" in the Poser galleries...) ...apparently not for very long it don't ;) /P

"The Forbidden Forum?" "But if you don't, you are a pedophile or monster or dangerous or or or or or...." No, it's not that. It's because this place is trying to attain credibility and keep it and feels the only way to achieve this is to be and remain professional and a forum with catfights and pitbulls fighting is just not going to display any prominent attractions. Unfortunatly us members are just as much a reason for no OT forum here; you only have to look into some of this very thread to find examples as to 'why'... The problem is I don't understand why the professional bit has to begin at the expense of the members losing a part of what makes them grow and achieve a standard of togetherness and belonging and lighthearted fun here among themseleves and other things they may value, instead of other slap in the face setbacks pointed out again and again that truly do contradict a lot of professional value..

You can post gallery images here that are inspired by the things you mentioned as long as ... You don't TALK about them here! ;-) bonni

"and the Tavern. These were closed due to continued fighting,name calling and general attacks against each other." - sndcastie

Bull-shit on including the VT in that Sandie. And you bloody well know better. You were damned well around as a member at the time, rather than as a mod-bot. Kbennet was still involved, he'd call bullshit on you also on that one. Stick to the party line if you must on things, but don't bloody well lie in front of people who know better and not expect to have it bite you.

We might not agree on most topics, especially political, but for the most part I enjoy reading what you have to say.

Likewise, Carolly.

The html, though, is bothersome.

Sorry if I "oinked" too loud -- I'll try to keep it under 190db's.

;)

What's with all the pig jokes? Pigs are fun! Went to a craft show and farm last Weekend and saw this one pig, now she was one fat porker!! I think she was proably pregnant, and hey, she was naked too!! Lol!! This porky Bess was running around like a hog in heat, like she didn't already have enough swelling her, lol! People were hootin' and hollerin' "Go Pig Go!" Poor pig, I think she just wanted to go slop herself somewhere in peace and too many folks wouldn't let her be. So what's that got to do with this? I don't know, just a pig story, since everyone's talking pig stuff here, lol! But since your all so keen on this pig stuff, guess it would be nice if we had a place to oink around here without having to worry that we'll end up as bacon or pork chops or having some forum pighand tie our feet together while we're trying to run a bit.

"Am I the only one who also thinks that the quality of the galleries has gone down," Poppi: You are not the only one. The Poser gallery has collapsed, fewer posts and less good pics, on the other side the Vue and Terragen galleries have improved and you can find good work there, maybe due the fact that censorship, until now, has little effect on those galleries and respective artists.

Attached Link: http://www.sparkchaser.net/blather/penglatest.html

"Lorna, for the info on the Pig thing, see attached link." Okay, thanks, explains all the pork references. ""Am I the only one who also thinks that the quality of the galleries has gone down," Poppi: You are not the only one." That's because many of the older members that had a clue are no longer here, went into permanent lurk mode, were banned, or just took down their galleries out of frustration. No offense to newer members, some are good, but most of this 'visible' forum does seem consist of newer members and probably will as this continues and folks continue to get muffled and ticked off, so how can much quality happen and keep on happening? Just post anything, couple of tits here, a couple of boobs there, one part of what I meant above by other unprofessional areas not going to be getting better and it doesn't matter; at least one time the tits and boobs around here had some quality! Lol!! And that goes for those male renders too, pretty bad when some of those past people made that old dorky male everybody sneers at look lots more sexy than a newby ever could slopping a quick pose with a Millenium Michael 228. The older members used to inspire and help the new ones, now we have newer members inspire and try to help the new members; I see plenty getting ignored or smitten with hamster jokes instead; how does that work and where will it go real fast?

how does that work and where will it go real fast?

Provided that one accepts all of your premises for the sake of argument --

Where will it go? Not very far.

Out of the literally 1000's of vistors that come to Rendo each and every day -- there are.....what? A dozen or so of us who regularly indulge ourselves in these endless forum go-rounds on subjects like this one? Maybe two dozen?

I strongly suspect that 99% of the surfers here at Rendo frankly couldn't care less about what any of us professional forumites think on a given subject -- pro or con.

And those who do lurk threads like this one primarily come here for the entertainment value. Not to learn any Deep Thoughts from us happy posters.

Sort of like watching shallow "reality" TV shows: only there isn't any "reality" involved.

Display the "reality" of most of us for 30min. on television -- and you'd get maybe 300 or so people to watch the program.

Probably about the same number as read our posts in these threads. And with about the same level of interest.