Attached Link: http://www.bonestructure.net/

Got that right dialyn! I agree with you one hundred percent!! bonestructure sure has a lot going for him and he's got the greatest attitude I've ever seen and considering his plights. Love that little doggie by the hydrant, made me giggle. Dare to dream, yes, and in many ways you are already a dream that is a reality bonestructure, because dreams are founded opon traits such as yours. Just from what little I know of you here, from your art, your posts, your style, I can tell that your kind, considerate, funny, very talented, intelligent yet always not afraid to learn more, and you probably got more class than many who think they do and don't! What makes you extra special in my fluttery eyes bonestructure is that you of all people don't have to be a nice person, you have enough bad poo happening in your life to actually have every right to make a mountain out of a moehill, because you've a mountain to climb for sure! But you don't. Instead of being a crabby grouch and taking out your warranted frustrations on everybody and everything, your a nice person, you have great attitude towards others, your able to laugh, and your able to shine through big, not because you have to at all, but because you actually want to.. You have more guts and endurance than many pregnant woman I've known, and they swore and yelled like the dickens when pain finally happened. You hang in there tough guy! Nice website and awsome work! Your very underated.

aw shucks lol. Way I see it, it takes too damn much energy to be all grouchy and stuff. And I don't think I could be if I wanted to be. I'm basically a nice person. Some would say too nice. I'm a bit naive and way too trusting and idealistic. As far as my art, it's not where i want it to be, I don't have the skills I want to have. My modeling skills suck, and I'm still working on texturing and lighting. I ask questions is the 3ds max forum akk the time. I have my own style, but I don't have it developed to the point I want it yet. I go to raph.com or CGtalk and I see peopel that are so much closer to where I want to be. And believe me, I have days when I'm so damn frustrated by being help back because I'm sick, because I'm in poverty, because of my video card problem, because I don't know enough, because I have difficulty concentrating, because I can't work long enough. Believe me, I really do get downright grumpy. But I have fantastic friends, at least online. I'm lucky enough to make a little money to cover my bills, I have a roof and food, at least at the moment. The way the country's goin who knows about tomorrow. I have the outlet of art and writing. I mean, I may not have a lot, but I got more than a lot of people.

"...I may not have a lot, but I got more than a lot of people." You just said it better yourself than anyone possibly could, listen to yourself bonestructure! Bet your cute too, you sound it, lol!

well, I look a lot like either Jerry Garcia or a kind of raggedy santa clause. I have my own peculiar charms lol

Charming I'm sure!
Well, looks like I'll be putting on some Grateful Dead music this coming Christmas instead of milk and cookies, lol!
Excuse me, I have a salmon fillet sizzling in the oven, take care Jerry Garcia, Santa Claus, bonestructure.

Message edited on: 05/13/2005 20:51

" "I joined long ago. The TOS that I signed and agreed to abide by is not the same TOS that is currently in place." the following is at the bottom of our TOS and has been there since the begining. **Renderosity reserves the right to change, alter or modify the Terms of Service as needed. All postings, past and present are subject to the most current terms of service. " and that statement is not actually legal in the sense of taking one to court. yes you can argue that the signee has agreed to it, but to actually use that statement in a law court? you'd be laughed out and asked to pay legal costs and for the cleaning of the judges clothes.

An interesting side note:

If a business hangs up a sign that says:

"We are not responsible for items missing or stolen"

or:

"We are not responsible for items left more than 30 days"

or:

"We are not responsible for this/that/or the other......."

From a purely legal standpoint, such signs are utterly meaningless. Saying that "we are not responsible" is merely legalistic wishful thinking.

If the law says that you are responsible: then you are responsible. No matter what your signs might claim to the contrary.

One cannot disclaim responsibility for one's own torts.

However, if one were to attempt to bring a case in court against Rendo by stating that Rendo had changed their TOS.........so that members can no longer post images of nude children..........and that's incredibly unfair........and we'll sue.........

Yes, the judge might start laughing out loud, alright.

Only his laughter wouldn't be directed at Renderosity.

by XENOPHONZ on 5/10/05 17:39 Hey......we've already got a Chicken Coop. Why not add a Pig Pen? ~Chuckles~ That comment made my day, Xenophonz!

**Renderosity reserves the right to change, alter or modify the Terms of Service as needed. All postings, past and present are subject to the most current terms of service. "

khai,

I do seem to recall a bit of consternation and debate over changes made in the TOS in the old ot when they decided to change the TOS to begin with, and as I recall some specifically raised the issue that, that particular clause was not in the original TOS. Then of course that was some time ago, and well once you get old like me the memory begins to fade quickly too. So I very well may be dead wrong too. LOL

Message edited on: 05/14/2005 01:52

Especially given the way some of these judges rule nowadays, one can never tell

On that point, we certainly agree.

The rulings from our courts are often odd -- even contradictory.

And it's unfortunate but true: one can often get as much justice as one can afford. That's not always the case. But it is too often.

We don't live in a just world.

True that true that. You know xeno I do understand Rosity's desire to make this place more family friendly though. After all that is the trend right now in all business. And like it or not, rosity is here to conduct business not to be a "community". If not, everything here would be free now wouldn't it?

When it comes to enforcement of civil liberties, and more precisely constitutionally garunteed state and federal rights, I wouldn't be so quick to think the judge, would laugh.

On this point, we diverge.

A given private website's TOS isn't the Constitution. And it's not a matter of civil liberties.

Those same businesses that can't disclaim responsibility can refuse to serve you if you aren't wearing a shirt and shoes -- like their sign says that you are supposed to..........

You know xeno I do understand Rosity's desire to make this place more family friendly though. So do I. That's why it doesn't bother me. Besides which: if one wishes to go beyond Rosity's TOS, then there are other places for that........

~Chuckles~ That comment made my day, Xenophonz! I'm glad that you enjoyed my weak attempt at humor, SophiaDeer. People are always telling me that I'm a funny guy........ ;)

Yes but those business can only do so because the laws (and the courts) have provided exception to the general rules, due to health and sanitation reasons. As with a theater who can tell you not to stand up and yell fire in the middle of the movie when there is no fire.

Thats completely different though, in my own humble and worthless opinion, than the situation that some feel is ocurring here. Today.

Then again I also think some of the "consternation" if you will thats gone on is due simply to the fact that most people are resistant to change to begin with.

But I on the other hand do also feel that one should be able to discuss pretty much whatever it is they want too, without having to fear being "warned" or "banned" provided they are'nt doing or saying things that break the law, like threatening someone's life, or the president etc.....

I don't know about everyone else but I can tell you that there are times when I have had some thoughts on some matters brought up here, and even some suggestions for making the "community" better, and don't say anything at all around here, purely because of the threat of getting "warned" or "banned".
P.S. I also wanted to say that while I know it is a hard job to mod or admin a site, personally my biggest "whine" if you will, is that there does appear to be, to me at least, no such thing as fair or equitable application and enforcement of the TOS. And thats because I have seen people get some of their images taken down, (wizard something or other was their name) yet I discovered darned nearly pornographic kiddy one's wich were left up and ok. That gives the appearance me, (who is, I realize, on the "outside" looking "in") that basically mods and admins just enforce the TOS whenever the feel like it, irregardless of wether someone's actually violating it or not. And I hope that this discussion won't get be banned, or deleted to the ethers of sub space. LOL

Message edited on: 05/14/2005 02:13

Well, it's 3:15 AM here, and I'm beginning to feel the need for logging out.......

So I'll check back at this in another 10 to 12 hours or so.

Have a good evening, BDC. Or a good morning -- whichever it is where you are.

Going off the air..............

XENOPHONZ has left the room.

LOL Gnight xeno

Gee, see what happens if you leave a thread alone a few days ? Anyway - I find it pretty interesting that any crits against rendo these days will get parked into some sort of cheese and whine category - 'specially when the initial post pointed out a discrepancy and an erroneous definition. I've never argued ToS at rendo. (much) However, there is a inconsistency between marketing/profiling and what actually goes on in the galleries, and since I am one of those people who actually gives a shit about stuff like that, I wanted to have a debate on it. I do a lot of graphics work when I am not doiung consulting work, and I usually freelance on the side. I've stopped using rendo as a portfolio. It's too fucking embarrassing when people start smiling when I say I have some imgs up at rendo. And then I get the questions about the nicey nicey fora and digs about the current tit-parade. Hence, I give a shit - This is the first place apart from my own webpages I ever posted images, and to me it's a snapshot of how bad a dilettante I was when I first started out, and whtat's improved. Some of those tips and tricks and improved images have been a direct result of hefty forum debacles - good and bad. I miss that. I also feel that if people want to flame, let them. The ToS does NOT guarantee you a right to be perpetually inoffended. the ToS as it is now, basically safeguards the mods from having to step in. Easy solution: One gloves off forum. ALL other sites bar Bondware and Daz have one. The VT became a ghost town because people who were interested had left. Jmahoney and I migrated to 3DA, which now is XFX. (John died August last year, so he's not around anymore) Pearce and Jumpy played elsewhere. Cambert got fed up and left. did Hiram As did probably most of the regulars who got fed up with site hypocrisy and ToS of the day. On a different note: It's very nice to see that Stacy is enough of a professional to concur with anyone who takes rendo's side when taking a dig at fellow posters. THAT'S what a PRO community admin is ALL about ! Fuzzies and huggles to you, hon ! dialyn - I don't have a beef with you. I admire how, after all this time, you still stick to your guns and convictions, despite the barrage of BS and abuse that usually gets you. Respect. SndCastie - you're pretty... well-intentioned, aren't you ? I think there was a Dilbert strip once about good intentions and backbones. May wanna look it up. ~S

I've stopped using rendo as a portfolio. It's too fucking embarrassing I've never gotten any paying work from stuff posted at Renderosity. The only thing I've ever gotten from having work posted here is ripped off, to be honest. I kinda hate the thought of a client coming here, actually. All the crap in the galleries, all the banners in questionable taste (some of them flashing fast enough to cause a seizure)... Definitely not the most "professional" presentation I can think of, that's for sure. And yeah, everyone knows that what makes a site "professional" is not solid coding and a classy presentation, it's people being niceynicenice and happyfuzzywuzzy. ;-) bonni

"so that members can no longer post images of nude children..........and that's incredibly unfair........and we'll sue........." No, this is not the TOS issue that bothers me. It is the "must be suzy creamcheese nicey nicey all the time" that bothers me. "I kinda hate the thought of a client coming here, actually. All the crap in the galleries, all the banners in questionable taste (some of them flashing fast enough to cause a seizure)... Definitely not the most "professional" presentation I can think of, that's for sure. " Yup, this place has gone warmfuzzy cheeseball all the way. I don't even send FRIENDS here, anymore. God forbid anyone I respect should check out the Poser hot 20. also, an aside on mod-stroking. at the end of the day, no matter how hard you try to curry favor...break the forum rules and you're outta here. that is, if folks complain about you. i am sick of forum threads falling into silliness about hamsters and piggies because others deliberately choose to derail discussions. that's not fair to those of us who are interested in the actual topic. and, stating negative feelings about something is not "whining". at least, not the way i was raised. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!:*)

"I've never gotten any paying work from stuff posted at Renderosity." I have. Just my opinion here, but art should NOT be family friendly. It should be controversial, confrontational, it should make you think. Oh sure, I do my fair share of my little fairies and the like, but I also do images that are much darker. Do I think art should be filled with images of nekkid children? No. But if I want to do an image of a 3 year old nekkid and stretching up to a kitchen counter to reach a cookie jar, that shouldn't be banned. That's an occurence than anyone who is a parent has had. I understand the REASON for changing the TOS. I just don't agree with the application.

Art should evoke thought and discussion. But that's not what the OT forum was about, not even on its best day. It wasn't about art, but about three year old mentalities needing to beat each other up and have the last word. There is nothing creative or stimulating about that. And, yes, I was one of those three year olds. I absolutely admit that I've had more than my share of immature outbursts on the forums. But those outbursts had zero to do with art, and I at least will admit that.

Message edited on: 05/14/2005 11:05

I fel fucking ancient when I'm typing this, but the OT started out pretty decent. What disrupted it, and speaking as one of the former disruptive elements in the OT (It's where I got my warnings, one, amongst others for calling Geep a hypocritical creep or something along those lines), basically is/was politics. Or rather, the pro vs anti Bush debates. I did see some imagery come out of that as well ;-) Thing is - if you invite people to come express themselves via imagery but won't allow them to do so in the fora, you can't say it's an art community, you may say it's a commercial art community - the rules of play for commercial art are pretty different than for generic, "canonical art" I can understand about the 3 year old tantrum mentality. I think we all do. However - if the flamers don't lose sleep over it, why should rendo ? You can't say it disrupts shopping, because you know as well as I that a lot of shoppers never visit the forums - just the store and the galleries. We're not even arguing ToS - play nice or else is fine - as long as nice isn't basic Disney sweetness. Case in point - you could argue that Xeno isn't being respectful of other members when he derails thread after thread, as Poppi pointed out. How come that doesnt fall in under the 3 year old mentality when it disrupts a convo people are having ? Again - I think a gloves off forum with monitoring for illegal activities (warez questions, underage pr0n) but no stepping in would solve a lot of the grumblings. face it - most of the debacles these days are n00bs throwing hissyfits. Let them loose among the ancients, and they'll teach 'em forum manners real quick ;-) ~S

Case in point - you could argue that Xeno isn't being respectful of other members when he derails thread after thread, as Poppi pointed out

Case in point --

Give them back the same recipe that they are dishing out......and they never seem to like the taste very much.

Attackers shouldn't get all huffy when they are responded to in kind. If one throws down a gauntlet, then one shouldn't be too upset when someone else picks it up -- and flings it back into the challenger's face.

You tend to get what you give.

That should come as no surprise.

However, this thread has turned out to be an unusually civil one.

Now that is a surprise.

As it's been said many times: Some can dish it out, but they can't take it.

Xeno - it would have been a valid argument if you didn't intentionally set out to derail - you've even admitted you do this. As for taking what I dish... 'bear or Q calibre people tend to get at me. I know this is way, way out of your league, but please - do give me your best shot. I kinda like the ticklish feeling of a forum gnat trying it's very best. ~S

I kinda like the ticklish feeling of a forum gnat trying it's very best.

Oh, brother........

sigh

Have fun, spinner.

If all of you were anywhere near as important as you give yourselves credit for being, then the rest of us would be the ones that would need to be liberated.

Time to go shopping at Wal Mart. Do something worthwhile.

Have a good time being yourself.

;)

Maybe they'll have some tastier dishes there, huh ? ~S

Please keep this discussion civil and on topic or I will have to lock this thread. Stacey Community Manager

I don't see Xeno as derailing threads. There are some here whom he annoys, but you don't have to read his messages if you know beforehand you'll be annoyed. I think I have seen the term "hijacking threads" used, but people should be allowed to change the subject within reason, since it's more of a conversational thing than a formal debate. That is one problem I can recall from the tavern forum, where Kevin or some other guy would sometimes get angry at somebody who would say stupid things out of context, instead of just laughing it off and ignoring him. It's just too hard to do these days, laughing about something rather than fighting about it, letting it drop rather than needing the last word on it.

Interesting. What if we put the same concept into action into the closed fora ? "Well, if you know you're going to get annoyed, don't read it. " As I pointed out, he doesn't annoy me. Or get to me. He derails threads on purpose - I am not the one who brought this up mateo, I followed up on the comment, meaning at least two people are of the same impression. And derailing isn't thread drift, mateo. Kevin would get angry in the Tavern ? Are we talking about the same Kevin ? Cause the only time I've seen him lose it was with Cain Brogan... Years ago. I need to go talk to Kevin. Apparently he has a totally different personality than the guy I know... Meanwhile - while I am checking out this whole new personality thang w. Kev - you could discuss new forum ToS rules: "If you don't want to see it, don't look" "If you don't want to read it, use ignore" - oh. Wait. This is Bondware... "If you don't want to read it, scroll past and hope you dont see anything" That'd actually demand people owned what they did or did not do. Which isn't very good for the nicefugglehuggy atmosphere we're all trying to contribute to... ~S

This discussion seems to have run its course. I won't lock it yet but once again stay on topic if you still want to discuss and keep it civil. Stacey Community Manager

Well crap, ok....I will edit my post then and just 'bookmark' :(

Message edited on: 05/14/2005 15:00

Xeno = "However, if one were to attempt to bring a case in court against Rendo by stating that Rendo had changed their TOS.........so that members can no longer post images of nude children..........and that's incredibly unfair........and we'll sue......... Yes, the judge might start laughing out loud, alright. Only his laughter wouldn't be directed at Renderosity." what the hell is he talking about? who mentioned nude children? I never did. Xeno, explain and if you think I want to post nude children, I want an Apology. in here right f***ing now.

Haven't read through the whole thread, its gotten way to long and I'm late for a dinner date. I would like to say one thing though. The Tavern was NEVER a place for flaming and fighting while IB ran it. At least I never saw any of that. More of a place to calm down when some nitwit was flaming elsewhere. He ran the Bar with a flair that many a mod could learn from. I wonder why he was able to do so while others seem to have such difficulty? As has been said before. Many other sites have OT forums. Some are wide open to most anything, some allow far less, but there doesn't seem to be much of a problem HAVING OT forums anywhere but here. Curious that eh? Hmmmmm I wonder if it could have anything to do with Mods that are so quick on the trigger finger they suspend members for appologizing, or outright ban them for calling someone a "dufflebag"? Nah, that couldn't be it. :)

This thread is done, I'm locking now. I am really disappointed that this discussion couldn't continue in a civilized manner. Stacey Community Manager