Well, I have been working with Max R7 with Vray Advanced and Brazil R/S at my college. Just rendered a 10+ Million poly Car a week ago using Brazil(4000X4000, GI n all enabled, see my Gallery). Now I just got Real Jessi for P6 and tried a test render with the following settings.(Ray bounces - 4, Min shadin rate - 0.1, Texture size - 4096 , Post filter size - 2, Post filter Type - gaussian) So I left it on rendering and left it for a whole damn night, and for a 2400X2600 render, it didnt just happen. I just don't get it. I have raytraced way higher poly heads in Brazil (& even Max's scanline) and got better results in less than half the time. Whats wrong, & Where? Plz help. Is there any third party renderer for Poser which is faster. Or do I use gesture max to Rig my files to Max everytime I need to? Or if there is some tradeoff which gives me good renders with lesser time, Plz let me know.

Please don't compare the Firefly engine to high-end applications, it's just not fair. Perhaps you don't realize that, while you are playing with all your stuff FOR FREE at your school, there are people that have to pay for the progs that are using and simply can't afford more expensive software.

Attached Link: http://www.reiss-studio.com

You'll have better luck exporting your stuff to Max.

BodyStudio is a good option.

http://www.reiss-studio.com

It cracks me up how people come into this forum calling the software a piece of crap and then want advice. Amazing...

I agree with blaufeld. You are discussing the difference between $5000 software and $300 software. Do you make similar comparisons between NotePad and Microsoft Office Professional? ;) With that said, I also agree with jeffg3. For $300, you don't get Renderman Pro, you get what you pay for. Export, import, render in the better app of your dreams, repeat and rinse.

Attached Link: http://www.e-frontier.com/article/articleview/1406/1/323/

Well, Playing around with stuff for free sure doesn't let you realize that Brazil, Vray, etc are high end...and beyond the reach of mere mortals like us. The best part is I have Gesture Max(College has it, Not me), so importing stuff into max is a breeze. But the mesh is really very high res and bugs up Max. And the render I was talking to you about completed in 2hrs, 7 mins in Brazil. The materials had to be tweaked a bit. The hair came up even better than it does in Poser. And with Material Editor, Refs and Refracs are a breeze, so Eyes look a bit more real. Would complete even faster if not better in Vray. And my friends who have taken up the course in Maya also get to work with Pixars PRman. Unfortunately, we with max don't get to as they is no good translator for Max to Rman. But for stills, MR and Brazil are as good as PRman. Thanks a lot anyways guys. I just can't wait to get some really good scene into Max and see how the results are.

You do know that Poser can export to PRMan? It's in "File/Export/RIB..."

This is one of the downsides of a polygon only software. In order to get good deformations and morphs, the geometry has to have high polygon counts. The same problem will occur in any software into which you import Poser figures/scenes. The power of the higher-end software is in use of procedural objects and deformations (NURBS, HyperNURBS, SPDs, and so on). Shameless Plug: If you can wait a few months, I'm working on a Cinema 4D plugin that works similar to Gesture Max/Greenbriar Studios CR2Loader+Conformer+MorphSystem. Except that I intend on supporting Poser JP deformations (including buldges) so that, pardon my French, sh!tty vertex map weightings don't restrict to the point where the translation is mostly useless - among other features.

Well stewer, It supposedly does. But its useless. Tried it.

Attached Link: http://www.stewreo.de/poser/poserman.html

"It cracks me up how people come into this forum calling the software a piece of crap and then want advice."---------I think people paid for the software so it's their right to complain.

"The power of the higher-end software is in use of procedural objects and deformations (NURBS, HyperNURBS, SPDs, and so on)." Blame the content creators - FireFly supports micropolygon displacement and Bezier patches (Polygon smoothing). You'd have to cut compatibility with P4, but then you can get fully detailed figures without high poly counts. Displacments can be animated and joint-controlled, so you don't loose flexibility.

" Displacments can be animated and joint-controlled," joint controlled displacement?..what do you mean by that? sounds interesting :)

"Unfortunately, we with max don't get to as they is no good translator for Max to Rman."

Yes, there is. It's called MaxMan by AnimalLogic. Costs around $1000 to purchase though.

"Well stewer, It supposedly does. But its useless. Tried it."

I officially declair that you:

1. Aren't using it right
2. Aren't using it right.

;-) Message edited on: 05/31/2005 07:32

joint controlled displacement?..what do you mean by that? sounds interesting :) ERC works for any parameter, including animated materials. When you enable animation for displacement strength, you can control it via ERC just like you would control a morph. Or you could animate a blending node that blends between multiple displacement maps.

Back to your post. Uncheck filtering and it should rock. If filtering was used for hair, try to use a hair that just needs displacement. Minimum shading rate (1.0-2.0)would help too

Message edited on: 05/31/2005 10:08

True it is there's do do or say as they please but when you complain that your mini cooper do not get the same performance numbers as a Ferrari Enzo then your complaint is without merrit a better title would be " How can I get my firefly renders to look more like rendererA, rendererB or rendererC" because a mini will never match a Ferrari not without about $575K worth of upgrades and a rocket motor tied to the roof. ;)

Well, Heard about Maxman. It does not support Max R7 I guess. Does it? Don't know Plz tell. And its no good using it if you have to rewrite all your shaders and all. PaxRendus is a better choice if you wanna go through all the trouble. Well, all these cost a wallop though and it would take me months, if not years to save for these. Something like MTOR (RAT) would really rock for Max. Though at my level of work, you can use Vray, or even POVRay and the final results don't differ much to cuss about or needing to spend a few thousand bucks here and there. The renderer doesn't matter much unless you are working for ILM or Pixar :). But the time it takes to render does. My Prof was telling me that PRman at normal res and stills is just as good as V-ray, though at anims its way better. V-ray I think is my renderer of choice. Quick n cheap. And I just posted a Poser test scene to Max via GestureMax. And set it up to render with V-ray, GI N all :) Lets see how it turns up. A final word needed: Which is better for Poser to Max, Reiss BodyStudio or Gesture Max. Anyone who has used 'em plz tell. Thanks

Just you :)

Why would anyone buy 3DSmacks anyway? If you're going to spend moneey, why not get MAYA?

I'm still waiting for some advancements on vray.exe (the standalone version of VRay). It would be interesting to see if it could be tied to Poser, but the web site hasn't been updated in almost a year.

Max?

Yeah ... Let's all run right out and buy it.

It's only ... Windows Physical Shipment ($3,495.00)

Hmmm, can't I buy about 20 boxes of Poser for that amount?

;=]

Edited to remove all nudity, violence, cuss words, bad stuff, TOS violation, and TOP SECRET material.

Message edited on: 05/31/2005 11:15

I used max (r3 and 5) for a number of years, I so much like the interface and what not, I have the maya PLE but havn't devoted anytime to reallly learn the program, the UV's in Maya seem top knotch though as well as the native dynamics system, but if I had the money I would get a Max seat rather then a Maya one as it is the one I am most familiar with...I am a devote trueSpace user now though ;)

......I must have strayed into the MAX forum by mistake......

Comparing firefly to max?

While we're at it, let's compare a nice Chevrolet Corvette to a Lamborghini......

Only a few people drive Corvettes. Very few people drive Lamborghini's.

I wonder why that could be?

*Max?

Let's all run right out and buy it.*

Yes. Let's.

Especially the 90% or so of us that do this for fun, and not for profit. Or to make a living at it.

My wife would understand $15,000-$25,000 or so being spent in one chunk on high-end apps to support my hobby. You bet.

Yup, ............. mine, too! ;=]

I might convince myself to buy Lightwave one of these days......great renders, and without the need for expensive add-ons like 3DS seems to require. At least Lightwave is under $2,000. The problem would be finding a way to import P6 scenes into it. Oh, well.....cross that bridge when I come to it. If I ever do.

"Why would anyone buy 3DSmacks anyway? If you're going to spend moneey, why not get MAYA?" Please. Stop feeding the fire of ignorance. :-( The only purpose this thread has served is to expose how little some people actually know about "high end" renderers, and the applications they are associated with. Give Firefly network rendering capability and perhaps some tweaks to raytrace speed/efficiency, and I'd be happy to show any of you that it CAN be used to produce pro-level video output to rival almost any renderer in most rendering situations. No, it doesn't have "true" GI/HDRI, but, my friends, that's something which is still often avoided in production anyway, and very similar results can be achieved without it. Even Blur Studios, who used the Brazil renderer for the acclaimed cinematics in Warhammer 40K only used a skylight with AO pass (no GI) on the characters, not the environment. Please... everyone... get your facts straight if you're going to argue about renderers and "high end" applications. Firefly is capable of high quality output in most situations. The only thing actually holding it back from being a production-capable renderer is network rendering. For stills, it does as good a job as any, with a little more effort required. Just takes some time, skills, and knowledge in the material room to achieve results.

"And its no good using it if you have to rewrite all your shaders and all."

Contact Animal Logic, and ask them if they have updated it for Max 7.

Here's a quote from their page:

"Native 3DS MAX materials are supported through MaxMan's Magic Shaders mechanism, whereby custom RenderMan shaders are written on the fly to match your complex MAX material hierarchies. RenderMan shaders (including Pixar's Looks) are supported. They can be applied from within MAX just like any other material. You can edit their parameters and view their samples from within the MAX material editor."

That should answer your question. :-) Message edited on: 05/31/2005 11:57

Attached Link: http://www.vray.info/

For the money ...

Poser ROCKS !!!

IMVHO
;=]

Money aside, poser6 sucks. IMVHO ;=]

Opinions vary.

P6 SR1 takes the prize for what it does.....hands down.

Even when compared with other "free" programs.

Maybe someday somebody will come up with a better program in the same price range as Poser.

But not today. And not for some time to come -- if ever.

Message edited on: 05/31/2005 12:15

Amen.

Question:
(rhetorical)

Why is it that ... those who have not posted a single render using Poser like to bash Poser the most?

;=]

Epilog: Perhaps those folk should try using Poser before bashing it, nay? ;=]

"Why is it that ... those who have not posted a single render using Poser like to bash Poser the most?" Probably because they press "render", and think it should be a magic button for photorealism. I think some people just expect $5000 results for under $300. With NO effort on their part. ;-)

I played with Poser and BMRT back when it was available so the .rib export does work on some level. The priblem with any of these things is that you need a CS degree to use them. POVRay can produce great results and with PoseRay, the basics are easy. Go beyond that and I'd have to learn another programming language. Nice little GUIs like Poser 6 are cute but you're still left to IMO needlessly complex manipulation. Give me a library of real world lights, materials and environments and a render button. I'll gladly leave the tinkering to those who enjoy it. I think that if 3D is ever going to emerge from a niche, someone will have to create that type of rendering functionality.

"I think that if 3D is ever going to emerge from a niche" Emerge from a niche? There will always be some people who like to create video games, for instance, and some who just enjoy playing them. Even if photorealistic rendering ever did become as easy as pressing a button, some people would still want to take it past that normalcy and do things others aren't doing. Then, there will be those vast numbers of individuals who still couldn't care less about making their own 3D videos or pictures, and would rather just enjoy the creations of others.

"Even if photorealistic rendering ever did become as easy as pressing a button, some people would still want to take it past that normalcy and do things others aren't doing." I agree entirely. I'm comparing the relative niche status of 3D development, not using the content. Think in terms of the evolution from early motion pictures to home 8mm to today's desktop video. Ditto for the printing press to the typewriter to now ubiqutous software for newsletters, greeting cards, etc. I've said many times that I think 3D creation is poised on the cusp of that type of widespread use. Poser was a tremendous step forward but it's still not quite there. Indeed, one could argue that it's moving in the opposite direction by becoming more like the high-end, high learning curve applications. OTOH, products like the RealSkin shader are (probably--haven't used them) an example of packaging complecity to make it more accessible to those who want more realism but don't want to spend hours tweaking shader nodes. There will always be a range of skills and desires, from the 'make every polygon yourself' 3DCG elite to the 'make art button' crowd. Poser is kind of like a manual 35mm SLR. You can get decent snapshots easily or reallly nice results if you fiddle with all the knob and dials. It's not a modern auto focus, auto everything camera that can produce the results of the previous generation without the 'hassle.' The latter is a large part of the (potential)user base IMO. As I've often said, give me a white stucco wall, a wool dress, a 70W Sylvania bulb, etc. These aren't mysteries, the properties are known. God bless those who want to tweak the nodes to get the nap of wool from a particular strain of Merino sheep, I'll settle for generic :-)

"Stewer, go to the link above to keep updated on the progress of the Vray plugin as well as any announcements about the standalone product. There's also a support forum at vrayrender.com, which updates frequently about the progress of the renderer, and it's many incarnations. You might have to swim through the overwhelming threads about the 3ds plugin to find more info on the standalone version's progress.." Well, on vray.info, the latest entry I could find about the standalone version is from July 04 - just like on vrayrender.com, which is where I was looking. I emailed them last year about an SDK or file format description, but didn't get any answer :( Judging by the number of threads like these, I assume that there is a market for 3rd party render plugins for Poser (heck, isn't this what most P6SE customers use Shade for?).

"It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools"

re: " ... "Even if photorealistic rendering ever did become as easy as pressing a button ..." It has. It's called a ............... camera. ;=]

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2240461

Hey ashish, there are tons of threads posted in this form addressing this topic.Here's a link to a thread that contains references to other threads in this forum that discuss the renderer in depth. Lots of good information in these, I hope they help. Other people who know much more than I can give you more particulars about bucket sizes, shader rates and all the other things that go into determining the quality and length of time for renders in firefly. Also you might check out the manual which gives some basic explanations of these things.

Kudos to the others in this thread who actually tried to help out, jeers to all you Poser gods and fanbois who blasted this Poser newbie for having the audacity to compare firefly to other more expensive renderers and sniggering about how silly it is to expect equal performance from apps that cost very different amounts of money. Sure his topic title and some of his comments are inflamatory, but that doesn't mean we have to return the favor. The guy's asking for help, focus on that.

Unzipped

Message edited on: 05/31/2005 14:53

jeers to all you Poser gods and fanbois who blasted this Poser newbie for having the audacity to compare firefly to other more expensive renderers and sniggering about how silly it is to expect equal performance from apps that cost very different amounts of money. Sure his topic title and some of his comments are inflamatory, but that doesn't mean we have to return the favor. The guy's asking for help, focus on that.

We should all take this lesson to heart.

The next time that someone approaches you by saying:

"Hey, dummy -- you're not as good as me on a Sunday afternoon, and my dog is prettier than yours -- but I need for you to give me a buck so that I can buy myself a soda........now, GIVE!"

......the next time that this happens, you're to smile politely and answer:

"Why certainly, Sir! And I'm sorry that I didn't realize that you needed a buck in advance of your wonderful request! Here it is! Have a nice day, Sir!"

Speaking for myself: I'll answer him that way.

You bet.

"Hey, dummy -- you're not as good as me on a Sunday afternoon, and my dog is prettier than yours -- but I need for you to give me a buck so that I can buy myself a soda........now, GIVE!......the next time that this happens, you're to smile politely and answer: Why certainly, Sir! And I'm sorry that I didn't realize that you needed a buck in advance of your wonderful request! Here it is! Have a nice day, Sir!" Actually, when something similar happened to me, I went into the gas station convenience store and bought a premade sandwich and a drink and gave them to the guy. I figure if I just gave him money he might use it for alcohol or drugs, but he could do little to harm himself with the food. He was pretty happy about it. You'd be surprised how his attitude switched when someone was nice to him for a change. True story. Unzipped

"jeers to all you Poser gods and fanbois who blasted this Poser newbie for having the audacity to compare firefly to other more expensive renderers and sniggering about how silly it is to expect equal performance from apps that cost very different amounts of money. Sure his topic title and some of his comments are inflamatory, but that doesn't mean we have to return the favor. The guy's asking for help, focus on that." I don't think anyone really "blasted" him. Straight talk is not blasting. The name-calling and "blasting", as you put it, seemed to be coming much more from the other direction. Perhaps the jeers are better focused at the handful of people who decided to make vague, unfounded claims about Poser's renderer using words like "sucks" and "useless", without providing any factual information. I feel it was a rather light-hearted little thread. ;-)

I haven't seen anyone be particularly hard on this guy.

Pointing out a flaw in someone's reasoning isn't an attack.

But coming into a forum and taking a slap at the software that the forum is based around is an attack. And should be dealt with accordingly.

You'd be surprised how his attitude switched when someone was nice to him for a change.

Sorry, but a guy that's using the latest high-end 3D apps in school probably isn't hard up.

True story.

This is OT.......but your true story reminds me of another true story.......

Another true story from just a few years ago......

A wino was sleeping on a sidewalk outside of the entrance of a restaurant in downtown Chicago. The restaurant's owner called the police, complaining that the homeless man was bothering his customers.

The cops showed up -- and it turned out that the man on the sidewalk had died.

For 3-4 days after that incident, the local papers screamed about the unfairness of it all......and about how heartless that restaurant owner had been. If only someone had cared about him.......!!!!! That selfish restaurant owner should have offered him a free meal......!!!!!

Well......someone happened to look into the wino's background and personal history.

It turned out that the "street bum" had a personal net worth of over $4,000,000 in the bank. Money that he hadn't touched.

He was the son of an extremely wealthy southern California family. He had long-standing drug & drink abuse problems.

Several times, he had been admitted to very expensive treatment centers -- the type of places where rich folks go.

Each time, he had gotten dried out -- gone home for a couple of weeks -- and then hit the street again.

He CHOSE to live that way. It wasn't society's fault; it wasn't his family's fault; and it wasn't the restaurant owner's fault.

He died as he chose to live.

His choices. Not someone else's.

It does puzzle me that there are freeware renderers available that, I think, are better than Firefly. I'm very happy with: http://www.povray.org/ And the poser coversion tool, also freeware: http://user.txcyber.com/~sgalls/

XENOPHONZ: Here's an interesting OT that you reminded me of. My friends well-to-do brother-in-law had a bum hanging out on his New York City stoop outside of his house. He had given him a few dollars on a few different occasions. Now this guy is back there with 2 of his friends. They won't leave. The Brother-in-law doesn't know what to do. He didn't want to call the cops on them. He just wanted them to go away. You can be nice but this was getting to be a little bit too much. So he comes out one morning and as usual, they were there with there hands out. He stopped and looked at the original stoop sitter and says in a calm friendly voice "Hey, where's that $3.00 you owe me? I know you have it and I want it". He came home from work later and they were gone. They never showed up again. The moral of the story is: If you ever want to get rid of someone, loan them some money. :)

"The moral of the story is: If you ever want to get rid of someone, loan them some money. :) " I did that with a "friend"of mine that kept coming over all drunk and getting on me and my familys' nerves. Once he asked for 20 bux,and I loaned him 10 and said "I must have it back tommorrow". Never saw him again,and it was money well spent. Tom