So out of curiousity I just looked Renda up in the Marketplace. Why isn't there any sort of acknowledgement that you need Victoria 3 to make Renda work? Why does the ad copy for Renda STILL say '100% NEW' when that's a load? Why can you still buy her without being informed that she is encoded? That's just insulting to the consumer.

"So the next thing people and the other merchants here should be asking is why wasn't she held to the same standards of testing??"

Actually, considering some of the problems I've found in some of my purchases from Renderosity over the past year - IMO they HAVE held Renda to the same standards of testing. lol Standards don't seem to be very high here but I've known that for years.

The testers here can't even seem to catch basic installation errors let alone something more serious. And now it seems the store no longer handles your complaints, they pass you on to the merchant and 50% of the time the merchant never even gets back to you. Nice customer service guys, love that in a merchant and store ;)

I guess because they are a Poser Gawd in the Top 20 they don't have to be polite to their customers. Will be the first and last time this merchant gets almost $20 for a hair figure from me.

I guess we really did need Pengy's rating system, huh?

"I guess we really did need Pengy's rating system, huh?" Deecey do you think? lol Emailed the merchant on 6/8/05 and still haven't heard back from them and the file still hasn't been updated...guess I'm going to have to get vocal publicly ;) A customer should NOT have to create folders and move geometry around to get a product to work properly. At the very least - Renderosity should be able to sell a product that installs properly without any frigging error messages.

My feeling on that problem is this ... Renderosity takes 50% of a merchant's sales to just host the file? Hmmm ... that seems a bit excessive to me. For the same 50%, DAZ provides the tech support. But then, they also make sure that the files work before they put them in the store. But at Renderosity, we see an awful lot of bandwidth pushing through the system. And basically, what that means is that the popular items are paying for the bandwidth that is used up by having to dish out thumbnails and promo images for the items that don't sell a lot. To me, the following makes GOOD, SOUND business sense. Start focusing on quality instead of quantity. Phase out the items that are below a certain standard, and reject them if they don't meet an acceptable level. When you do, your bandwidth costs and testing costs start going down, and the quality of the items in your store goes up. And so will the sales. A store with 3000 quality items will sell more, and take less expense to run, than a store with the same 3000 quality items and 122,000 other items that only sell a maximum of ten. The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images. Aside from that, having to wade through the extra 122,000 thumbnails make the 3,000 quality ones MUCH harder to find. And I didn't even go to business school. ;-D

At least now we have a reliable benchmark of 6 months to create an original figure. I was thinking it would take even longer, but 6 months sounds o.k. So we can be on alert in the unlikely event that somebody will make the mistake of saying they "created" theirs in only two months. The way I see it, one of these dubious figures has come out every 9 to 12 months, for the last few years. Somebody with an eagle eye spots the rip-off. Then there are apologies all around, the website in question gets taken over or modified or shut down, and people go back to their routines. Once the heat has died down a little, the next dubious figure comes out. It would also be a good idea to work something out with Daz so the Renda thing can be pulled. Having that albatross around their neck is just going to make things uncomfortable, even if it serves a good purpose, to continually remind everyone not to take shortcuts like that.

I think once again rosity is doing the halfassed thing. They could make a new Cr2 and be in the clear. I dunno about you guys, but I wouldnt buy a character with an original mesh that requires another model. I also dont buy character morphs. I personally think that Renda wont sell if encoded with V3.

mateo ... keep in mind that Anton's 6 months is for someone who knows the ins and outs of Poser CR2's and joints in a way that only a very select few in this community do. He also knows how to model a figure so that it bends the best way possible.

That 6 month benchmark may be very optimistic for other figure modelers, so I would say 6-12 months is probably a safe range for a figure that is cutting edge.

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 14:21

book mark 4 later reading

Anton said, 'I'll be honest in that I am very worried that now that Apollo is released, and after 7 years of the same figure design, I am about to be ripped off in the next generation of figures' Anton, I voiced the same concern on another site about your work, basically saying 'I hope anton is well covered for copyright on AMax' It seems to me that AMax, being original and innovative, will be a prime target for the rip-off brigade. In fact, we've reached the point now where any original work is seen as fair game for these clowns. Sad days, indeed. Especially for a community of people who like to think of themselves as 'artists'. True artists don't go looking for stuff to steal. Only piss-artists do that. mac

I'm sorry, but I have to say this again ... that Renderosity released a "flagship" figure with known quality issues is a very sad commentary on what this site is all about. If they don't care about their flagship figure, who is to say they care about the quality of anything else in their store?

It HAS to turn around, for the good of this community, merchants and customers alike.

Unless ALL of the Poser sites, but most especially this one, make a commitment to quality, to copyright infringement violations, to WAREZ requests, and to the concerns of their merchants and customers, it will not happen. Those who run the communities we frequent should SET AN EXAMPLE of the standards they wish their customers and merchants to uphold. Enough said.

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 15:22

Guys, Thanks for all the great feedback and suggestions. After working closely with our RPublishing group this week and engaging in an ongoing dialog with DAZ, we have come to the same point of view that many of you have promoted here. It's clear the right thing to do is pull the Renda product from the Marketplace until such time that we can be certain that she is untainted by any third-party intellectual property and that all known quality problems are resolved. Tomorrow, we will be issuing a refund to all buyers of Renda and related add-on products. This will happen automatically and should not require action on behalf of the buyers. At the same time we will ask all buyers to remove Renda and related products from their systems due to the related copyright and EULA claims. Thanks, Tim "Fortunately, I say fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an occassion" - Fog Horn Leg Horn

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 18:31

Good going, Tim. It's the right thing to do for sure. :)

I think it's the right thing also, Tim. Let her fade in the minds of the merchants and the community and come back with something inovative.

Some times hard decisions had to be made for the sake of the whole thing, tough call you have to face but we all think that is the right one. My faith in this store is slowly coming back but coming back after all.

I think this is probably the best decision you could have made. Companies, just like individuals can make mistakes. There's no shame in it. Just make good the loss and move on. By learning from this project, I'm confident the next one will be far better. I applaud you for doing the right thing by your customers. mac

XLT decision :)

Agreed! The right move for certain.

I'm impressed by the refunds. BTW I think Renda will not recover from this, and sadly has hit the 10 merchants who supported the new figure quite badly. I agree with others that Renda should be consigned to the bin and a new figure created, otherwise i don't think anyone is going to take any other Rosity figures seriously, I know i wont buy into any Rosity figures without seeing public reaction in future, unless remove renda. Well, the products will all work with V3, for what that is worth. Which isn't the consolation one would hope for in terms of the kind of sales from a flagship launch, but still, it means that they haven't lost all of their initial efforts. I feel so sorry for everyone.

Sound decision IMO. Deecey posted a thought that I think is very sound, for Renderosity to focus on quality and fewer items. As a customer I am sometimes frustrated by the sheer volume of stuff I have to wade through. The rating system has helped a lot, as well as the feedback, but just finding stuff to begin with is tricky -- the search keywords often pull up non-related items. Focusing on consistently excellent merchants like Anton, Blackhearted and Morris could be a winning formula for R'osity.

I have had Renda for a week now. Sure this whole thing is quite messy, but I hope to ease the balance simply by saying this. I like Renda. I think her face is unique and the mesh offers a very fast package on my Poser stage. Her lips were also well done and give her a distinct personality worth keeping. My hope is that Renda will be back soon, stronger than ever.

"We can rebuild her, we have the technology..."

Glad the right decision has been made, at last. Let's hope the next flagship has a sail, eh? Cliff

"A store with 3000 quality items will sell more, and take less expense to run, than a store with the same 3000 quality items and 122,000 other items that only sell a maximum of ten. The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images." This is shelf space in Retail sales. Sellthrough on shelf space is a critical component in measuring a retail store's success. There's an additional benefit -- it will help, once again, to decentralize the marketplace. "It seems to me that AMax, being original and innovative, will be a prime target for the rip-off brigade. In fact, we've reached the point now where any original work is seen as fair game for these clowns" The inherent problem is that Cr2's -- which are program settings files -- are not themselves covered by copyright. So Eula restrictions must be used. However, Eula's can only be utilized effectively against those directly bound by them (ie purchasers). In short, one cannot depend on a concept of community scruples to achieve compliance with an ethical code. That would be nice, but is no more likely than getting people to stop stealing because it is wrong. In the end, in both the larger business world and the much more cozy and comfortable business world we live in right now, creating something which is innovative is going to benefit the innovator only for a short time directly and monetarily (if they choose to do so) before becoming absorbed into the overall stable of techniques. That's what happens with art. Does it sting? yeah. A lot. Does it piss ya off? Oh, hell yeah. Can you do anything about it? Hire a lawyer. Should you? No. Accept it. Use it. Turn it to your advantage. Don't let people forget that you were the one that discerned that particular thing that spurred that innovation. Then move on to the next challenge and keep it up. "I think this is probably the best decision you could have made. Companies, just like individuals can make mistakes. There's no shame in it. Just make good the loss and move on. By learning from this project, I'm confident the next one will be far better." I concur, wholeheartedly, with this part. Petunias, anyone?

"Fortunately, I say fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an occassion" - Fog Horn Leg Horn ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! Okay, THAT was funny. My hope is that Renda will be back soon, stronger than ever. Maybe they can work toward a re-launch in, say, September. >;-P bonni

I quite agree... whats the point of making another V3 add-on? Isnt that kinna what we all already do? (Excepting those that do their own meshes of course or that use other bases) I think u guys need to collaborate with someone who has built figures from the ground up, and even moreso, someone u can trust who isnt going to violate rules or copyright. Even this add-on biz is kinna cheezy, since it relies on DAZ's creation.... if they can build a base from the ground up, surely u guys can too. And aside from that, only then can rendo truly compete with DAZ. Least I believe. Im not really surprised it flopped... I had a bad feeling about it, as I stated in the first thread when all ths started. Im sorry tho, for those merchants that supported her are taking the heat for it, as well as Renderosity.... but it could have been avoided had rendo not jumped the gun about releasing her. :o

In reading all this it just amazes me that with all the talented and creative people here at renderosity that Renderosity has not held a contest for the creation of the new "Renderosity Super Model" with the main rule being it be completely original. then let us all vote on the winner and upon total verification of it being an original figure let it be released. as for ripping renderosity for the flub need i remind everyone that just this last christmas Daz also had issues with products having copywrite infrindgments. thease things happen. as for those that put their time and effort into creating things for the renda character I belive that they do deserve compensation. maybe a $50.00 Renderosity gift voucher...

Elizabyte -- yer evil. Although, I have to admit, finding out that tim has a sense of humor about this did strike me as funny as well. a most excellent choice of quote. On soooo many levels.

Thanks, Tim. I think it's the right decision, too. Lady_Annika's idea of a contest could be fun/interesting. And also if the modeler(s) have to put their name on it next time, maybe they won't be so quick to snag bits that don't belong to them. And as for compensating the people who were part of the initial merchant team, if you decide to do it, I hope you take it out of the modeler's hide.

.

Is anyone really supprised at this? Sheesh, take a look around at how this place is run. It's about a quick and easy buck...and we all buy into it. Having been here from day one and witnessed all the business shenanigans that went on with Mr. J Kammerer, it's not a suprise how this all is going down. I'm sure he's having a good time watching this. Anyone remember poserforum and Willow? Probably not..

Very droll re: ther feathers numbered thing...and I feel tha The Team should really forge ahead and de construct the mistakes in this one and replace with the correct protocols...I say this a non Poser user of this figure and find it to be a lot more easily 'bone able' in my program of choice than the rather poly dense figures I've tried...I may even succeed with this one...all for naught as it'll be ileagal,but maybe with a corrected one my work will not be in vain...sigh..still a fine resolution all round to a sticky situation... peace bobby

"The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images." "that only sell a maximum of ten" I am sorry. I never post in discussions like these, but this disturbs me. The good ones are paying for the bad ones? Have looked in the market place? There are some awesome and excellent products that are paying for the bad ones, but there are also some really bad products that also sell, and some excellent products that don't sell. The Renderosity limit of $300 sales before you upload a fourth product is already one measure in place to stop a flood of sub-standard items, but I know of many excellent products that took months to make that will only sell a few copies because they are niche market products. How many people will buy a 250 000 polygon bulldozer? One? Two? Does that mean it is a bad product? Does that mean it shouldn't be on sale here, because it doesn't sell 100 copies? But a set of tattoo overlays that sells a hundred copies is considered a good product and will obviously stay in the marketplace. Applying this sort of logic means that all niche products will dissappear from the store, and that only the most basic products for NVIATWAS renders will eventually remain. Is that the kind of store you want? I agree that the standard of testing should be raised, but please don't let the number of sales determine whether a product is good or not. By the very nature of Poser a set of "big boob" morphs will always outsell a model of a microwave oven, but that does not mean it is a better product. Raise the standard by all means, but don't make value judgements on the quality of a product based on it's sales. (PS My next product took a month to make, has 40 controls for moving parts, over two hundred moving parts and over 400 lines of ERC coding. I will be happy, and expect to, sell five copies. Does that make it a bad product?)

I have to pipe in here. I dont think it is the standard in which the testers test should be raised I think the testers should do the jobs they were given or find someone that will. Don't get me wrong there are some really harsh testers out there and i usually get them. and i think the ones that do their jobs jen Wink only add to the quality of the products that are here. with that said the price in which some products cost affect the number sold as well. there are some really awesome items that i want but will not buy due to the fact that i think the price is a bit much. and as the saying goes you can please some of the people some of the time but you will never please everyone. Fact is we as merchants do not have any say in the way render is run. my opinion deal with it or leave it. just a personal opinion :)

I was surprised to see a copyright myth being promulgated here - that a cr2 file can't be copyrighted. Feel free to try telling that to Daz or any other distributor of cr2 files containing proprietary morph data. Any document can be copyrighted, regardless of mythology to the contrary. Maybe what was meant was that the file format itself (a document ending in the cr2 extension) can't be copyrighted. I think they could even try to do that, but it wouldn't be sustained in a court case.

Most often it is not Copyright (Mesh can be Copyrighted I believe), but EULA Violations. I believe JP and other factors of a figure fall into the EULA.

"It would be a terrific opprotuinty for everyone if a new, unique, original looking female figure is created by Renderosity. I hope Rendo does not give up on their original concept. Steady on. Stiff upper lip." Lululee
I agree 100% ! Be positive!!!

Actually - while the file itself can be copyrighted, certian parts of the data cannot be for various reasons. I have been dealing with several parties (one of them a copyright lawyer) on this very topic. To make a relevant example - it is not possible to copyright the "functional aspect" of an otherwise copyrightable item. It is also fair use to copy sections of a digital work for purposes of "compatibility". As such, copying joint parameters is allowed under copyright law alone. To prevent this, companies (such as DAZ) license their products in such a way that you waive those rights. Now you are quite correct that one can copyright an individual file. However, copyright law by itself allows me to make "fair use" of portions of it should it be needed for compatibility (e.g. for clothing), if the section in question is a purely "functional" aspect of the work (such as joint parameters), etc. That is why one NEEDS to have explicit terms in a license regarding the conditins under which a person may or may not copy parts of the digital product. This is not really a discussion for this thread, but like yourself, I dislike seeing incorrect or incomplete information regarding copyright spread to those that do not have access to all the facts. EK

By the very nature of Poser a set of "big boob" morphs will always outsell a model of a microwave oven, but that does not mean it is a better product. LOL! I am SO with you on that one! (PS My next product took a month to make, has 40 controls for moving parts, over two hundred moving parts and over 400 lines of ERC coding. I will be happy, and expect to, sell five copies. Does that make it a bad product?) Depends who you ask. Some people really seem to think it does. :-( But IMO, no, it doesn't.

*""The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images."
"that only sell a maximum of ten"

I am sorry. I never post in discussions like these, but this disturbs me. The good ones are paying for the bad ones? Have looked in the market place? There are some awesome and excellent products that are paying for the bad ones, but there are also some really bad products that also sell, and some excellent products that don't sell."*

Yeah, I'd say he could stuff that opinion too. Consider the niches. Not many are into specialized characters and thank goodness many merchants have enough class not to flood the market with another impossibly boobed goth V3.
If you're looking for the 'sex sells' only crowd, it's at Rotica.

"I was surprised to see a copyright myth being promulgated here - that a cr2 file can't be copyrighted. Feel free to try telling that to Daz or any other distributor of cr2 files containing proprietary morph data. Any document can be copyrighted, regardless of mythology to the contrary."

Incorrect.

Not any document can be copyrighted. It must have sufficient originality.

Precedent has already established that program settings cannot be copyrighted, as effectively explained by EK. Precendent which has been tested several times internationally as well as within the US, and stood up every time.

They can, however contain copyrighted information (in this case, morphs and geometry).

Anything which determine the basic functionality of an item within a program is absent that copyright. This would include, within a cr2, any sort of functionality information (bending, twisting moving, postioning -- in short, rigging).

for the purpose of simplicity: you create a morph, and that morph is stored in the cr2; that morph is copyrighted material. The Cr2 itself is not.

A cr2, stripped of all copyrightable information, is nothing more than a file contianing postioning information for the program to function effectively on the object -- program settings. The object itself and derivations there of are subject to copyright, but the program settings -- no matter how creatively the settings are used, or how originally they are put together -- are not subject to such.

DAZ knows this. DAZ's Lawyers know this. This is why they have created a contractual agreement that expressly forbids the use of their settings from their figures by the purchaser.

However, DAZ is also aware that since these are program settings, it is entirely possible for those exact same settings to be arrived at independently of using their figure, strictly on the basis of form and shape.

To further reduce the likelihood of such happening, they have trademarked the specific shape of Victoria and Michael, as well -- so a variance is required, which prevents, once again, actual duplication of the exact space points uniformly throughout the figure. (Renda was not exact, therefore was not subject to the trademark).

However, because they are program settings, and they can be duplicated independently and with certainty and are wholly dependent on the application itself, they are not sufficiently capable of being original works under the USCO code and the effective treaties and agreements thereby associated.

It is not a myth. It is an established precedent. It is also an invovled aspect of IP law that affects far more than just poser.

I am sorry. I never post in discussions like these, but this disturbs me. The good ones are paying for the bad ones? Have looked in the market place? There are some awesome and excellent products that are paying for the bad ones, but there are also some really bad products that also sell, and some excellent products that don't sell. Helgard and Kendra, my apologies. I was not inferring that a product that sold less than 10 was "bad" in quality. But perhaps this example will explain what I was trying to say. Let's say 36 products go in the store on the same day. Each of those thumbnails is 15K in size, so each person that logs on and visits the marketplace downloads about a half a megabyte just to see what is new in the store that day. Let's say that we have 1800-2300 people on line here and they stay for an hour (this has to be in simple terms for purpose of example). During that hour, let's say that 20% of them are looking at what is new in the store. That's 360-460 people downloading a half a meg of thumbnails 180 to 230 megabytes of data just to deliver thumbnails in an hour. In four to five hours, you deliver a gigabyte. In one day, 6 gigabytes. In one month, 180 gigabytes. Just for thumbnails. It costs money to deliver that. Now from the merchant's standpoint, each is giving 50% of their sales price toward that bandwidth. Everyone donates the same cut, and everyone gets their product thumbnails shown to the same number of people. It seems fair. BUT .. the person who sold 100 copies is contributing more toward those bandwidth costs than the person who sold 10 copies. So from a business standpoint, it makes sense to try to select items that will sell more, so that operating and maintenance costs can trimmed to a reasonable level. Yes, you're right there is some "bad" stuff that sells. And there is some "good" stuff that doesn't sell as many. But then again, there are other things that there are far too many of and THAT may be why they aren't selling. Those are the items I was thinking of when I referenced things that only sold ten copies. It is HARD to decide the right balance. But we are looking at a site whose staff can't keep up with it; and at times the servers choke because they can't keep up with it. Starting to cut back on the number of items offered, along with raising the quality of the items offered, will really be better all around for this site. And better for the community. I hope that makes more sense now ... it's very hard to say everything that you are feeling in this medium. My apologies.

Is anyone really surprised at this? Sheesh, take a look around at how this place is run. It's about a quick and easy buck...and we all buy into it. Having been here from day one and witnessed all the business shenanigans that went on with Mr. J Kammerer, it's not a surprise how this all is going down. I'm sure he's having a good time watching this.<< Hey Mobius, It is interesting that you say that, because just yesterday while talking to Ironbear he and I pretty much said the same thing all boiling down to a pattern of behavior and curiously enough, despite those patterns, people continue to move on as though that situation occurred to such an extent where Ive heard people of power in this Community joking about this Community having short term and selective memories. /shrug/ maybe there is some truth to that after all. Forgive me for not mentioning Solandra, which incidentally, if memory serves me, was really one of the first human figures made for this Community that wasnt made by Zygote/DAZ but made from a Community Member. and I also remember that, even though you and I had a disagreement about her and some work that I thought still needed to be done on her, and despite your anger at me at the time, you worked very hard on making her even better for your customers and put a lot of time in her creation, long after I left Renderosity. As for me having a good time watching this. Strangely, I find myself apathetic to the whole thing. Maybe that is because that Poser has once more become only a hobby for me (and a drastically reduced one for that matter) and Ive moved on to an industry where progression and innovation happens on a weekly basis and absorbs much of my time. Perhaps a few years ago, Id be dancing a jig and urinating on the corpse of Renda, and be smug about the whole ordeal I did have a tendency to be a PITA at times. But today, I could care less if Tim walked out of his office butt naked and declaring how wonderful he looked in his new clothes. Today, however, I just sit back and just shake my head in amazement at how this Community allows these things to repeatedly happen to them over here and how the administration and moderators here (those that I always believed to have integrity) rush, like mindless zombies, and defend the bad decisions made (like Renda) and repeat in mindless, robotic fashion that: Renderositys Sales have NEVER been better. Which leads me to believe that if the Community isnt going to bother to wake up and defend itself from these sort of abuses, well then, they deserve whatever crap they get. If these people arent going care about themselves then, really, why should I? Off topic, very AWESOME work that youve been doing with Stonemason and you can definitely be sure that I will be buying more your guys stuff over at DAZ. I cant get enough of your sci-fi stuff (or your Urban set) and always enjoy the hidden messages that Stone puts in the textures!! Jack (who loves his Mother LOL)

If you're looking for the 'sex sells' only crowd, it's at Rotica.<< Actually, you'd be surprised that even the items that don't have a sexual use sells quite a bit over at Renderotica, as I am sure that some merchants who sell both here and there will attest too. Jack

Hmm... what to say?? Sorry some merchants worked , on now useless, items for Renda. But maybe this will work out for the best in the end. One door closes and another opens. Smile everyone, it does get better! :)

Jack...no hard feelings...I had completely forgotten about that. I'm getting old! And, I don't know what work you're talking about with Stonemason...but his stuff does look awesome!

Different Moebius. He confused you with Moe.

Um, there's a lot more impossibly boobed NVIATWAS tripe posted over here than at Rotica. In general, the sexual stuff is much more sophisticated over there than here. And while our store does have sexual items in it, that's not all there is.

In general, the sexual stuff is much more sophisticated over there than here. I've also found that doing attractive, artistically interesting erotica is quite a challege. Much more difficult than a lot of stuff I've tried, actually. bonni

Well off to start re-converting my Renda clothes over to my Character...