I wonder how long it will be before some tallented artist gives us a trully photo real muscular female texture for V3. This is something that seems to be badly lacking. There are zillions of textures for V3 out there but so far I have not found a single instant of a trully muscular texture. I am told that detailing muscularity is a very difficult thing to do, well if thats so then an opportunity for a great artist to show that its possible and be the first is awaiting them.

I'd pay extra for a set like this. Especially if it had a well done vascular displacement map included. I'm trying to work one up myself, it sure is a pain. Unzipped

It's good to see I'm not the only one who likes muscled women.:-D I noticed recently that there are more and more renders with muscled Vickys and Stephs in the gallery and that's a good thing.:-) I would also love to buy such a texture.

I think this is because there are not enough clients for stuff like this. Imagine, you work on a texture for a few weeks and then you release it and only a hand full of people buy it. I think this is the only reason for it.

Well Arvanor there's three buyers here right away and I only put the post up a short while ago! PXP

Attached Link: http://www.personalpowertraining.net/Female_bodybuilder_Desiree_Dumpel.htm

well...as a texture maker... I know that when you make a female character with a masculine look...and I am talking about muscles and other features as a square jaw and tough look in her eyes, it doesnt really sell...believe me. I tried...it was a big disapointment. People prefer to buy nicelly shaped characters and the sweeter they look, the better they sell. The "doll look" sells better than a tough look... this is why I believe merchants will not hurry to make a muscular female character, because as arvanor said, if you work for weeks for such a texture and it sells just a few packs, you will not be very happy. just my opinion...

Wasn't she the one in Napoleon Dynamite?

Well I'm sure Desiree makes someone's heart go pitter patter... Muscular doesn't necessarily mean amenorrhea inducing extremes of development. The woman who the Dina V figure was based on, Dina Vannoni, is an exercise and fitness model though, at 34DD-25-36, I suspect she's not quite all muscle :-)

@Acadia I don't like THAT look either LOL.The woman should still look like a woman.Muscles-yes,steroids-no.I like the natural build shape.

because muscles should be done by the mesh not the texture? Or am I missing something? What is it from the texture that should define muscles? It's not as if the skin over her bicep really is lighter or different textured than the skin just to the sides of the bicep. That shaping in a human body is done by the muscle underneath and light hitting her body creating the light and shade to define it... not cos her skin is painted that way(??) For a similar job in 3d, the mesh has to be shaped. And there are muscle morphs for V3... Anyway, just wondering what you meant about muscular "textures" :)

Acadia said: "I'm a girl and have no problem saying when another woman has a nice figure. However, I do not consider this to be attractive, for either men or women. ...yes, that is a picture of a female body builer." Well you are linking to an unattractive woman, whose face has that dried leather look from the perpetual dark tan all body builders try and keep (for some reason muscles look better and are more visible on dark skin). But you ain't seen nothing yet. Try looking at some NUDE female body builders. You think the jaw changes are bad. Wait until you stumble across what the steroids do to a woman's "naughty bits". I am all for genital diversity but a woman should NOT look like a man that has just gotten out of a very cold pool. Anyone remember Gladys Portuguese? She was a body builder as I recall and unless memory miserves me was quite fetching. All this being said I have often wondered at all the fantasy adventure renders. Hmmm, running around all the time protecting the realm, slaying evil creatures and using big honking swords with those pipe cleaner arms. And keeping that "soft" look. I know, MAGIC SWORDS. Not heavy and won't mess up your manicure. Even though they said she went through serious training and performed most of her own stunts I always though the ever lovely Angelina Jolie looked too weak to actually DO the things she did in the Tomb Raider movies. I rather like the realistic change in Linda Hamilton between Terminator I and Terminator II. She got muscled but it was a smaller lean muscle, realistic for her as a character. Just my two cents. Cheers, RWB64

I see what you mean, she needs bulging, colored veins. The geometry morph isn't completely convincing without them.

All this being said I have often wondered at all the fantasy adventure renders. Hmmm, running around all the time protecting the realm, slaying evil creatures and using big honking swords with those pipe cleaner arms. And keeping that "soft" look. That "soft" look is actually more realistic (not the pipe cleaner arms, mind you). When people use female bodybuilders as the height of unattractiveness, and provide photos, inevitably those photos are of the women in contest shape which, like male bodybuilders, involves dehydrating as much as possible and reducing body fat to levels that would be deadly for an extended period of time to get the most definition. Offseason, fat builds up and there's a lot more fluid which softens the curves in men and women. In women especially it softens the face. I've seen female bodybuilders (and fitness competitors) who are, bluntly, ugly as sin during contests and who are either, at worst, average looking and often quite attractive when they have more normal body compositions. (Yes, steroids have an effect, but I'm not counting that.) In the real world, someone who'd need strength who wasn't on a carb-reduced/low fat/low fluid would have more softer curves, male or female, and wouldn't have the stereotypical female bodybuilder skull-face. All you have to do is long at the strong man competitions (which sometimes have events featuring female competitors) to see it. Not many of them are classical-shaped Grecian statues in shape for men, and the women don't look like bodybuilders in a competition.

What's with the bodybuilder hating, especially the female end of it?

People have gotten on these boards asking about textures for black people or morphs for heavy-set people, but no one would, or should, reply by linking to a picture of a black person or an overweight person and saying that they don't consider this attractive for a man or woman.

It's just plain wrong to do so.

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 10:57

Re RWB64's comment: "I know, MAGIC SWORDS. Not heavy and won't mess up your manicure." LOL LOL LOL - That comment made me chuckle!!!

Well, if you look at the link above, that woman is more a man so take advantage of the unimeshes and use a M3 texture on V3, I think bodybuilders are available.

If you wanted a bodybuilding female V3, it should be creatable with existing products. Texture map is just texture and color, it not shape. Sounds to me like what you need is morph packs to add muscle, and a bump map to raise the veins that are seen on people that work out consistantly. V3 is unimesh and im pretty positive that at least M3 or FREAK had some kind of vein bumpmap from some merchant that created this workout look. Ive heard the Daz unimesh Mil3 chars can share textures, this would lead me to believe that bump and transmaps are compatible as well. Id start a quest for vein bumpmaps and go from there :)

Damn it I had a nice long response to Keith and when I went to preview it the bloody thing disappeared! Where did it go? I couldn't even backpage to it.

How do you make quotes in italics?

fls13 said:
What's with the bodybuilder hating, especially the female end of it?

I don't think anyone expressed HATRED.

People have gotten on these boards asking about textures for black people or morphs for heavy-set people,

Being born black isn't something you work at or artificially induced. Being heavy set can also be something a person has no control over. A heavy set character represents a good portion of Americans today. Did any one ask for a set of a "we have to remove a wall and use a forklift to get this person out of the house" obese people?

but no one would, or should, reply by linking to a picture of a black person or an overweight person and saying that they don't consider this attractive for a man or woman.

It's just plain wrong to do so.

Wrong? No. A bit insensitive to body building women who look like the one pictured and those that love them? Perhaps. It's a matter of taste really. Some people find various ethnicities, body types, hairyness, etc. to be ugly. We all have our personal preferences as to what we find attractive.
Cheers,
RWB64

What has all of this to do with my suggestion for a skin texture that could highten the detail and emphasize the effect of vascularity on V3? I did not invite argument about 'Female Body Builders'. People should respect the fact that female body builders devote their lives to building a beautiful muscular physique and they still look feminine. Making comments such as:"I do not consider this to be attractive, for either men or women" as RWB64 has said is biased and unfair and has nothing to do with a V3 muscular skin texture. If you want to pick out muscular females to emphasize a point of argument where you say that muscular women look ugly then you should first look at female body builders such as: Tazzie Colomb, Marja Lehtonen, Collette Nelson, Melissa Coates to name just a few of these ladies who are beautiful and every bit feminine.

Since it's true that being black isn't a choice and obesity has a genetic component, I'll expand on my point with a hypothetical request for a texture for a punk rocker or goth chick. That is fully a choice and for someone to link to a picture of a punk rocker or goth chick . . . . Actually, I think a lot of people would have interest in vastly improved (more realistic) muscle morphs, texture maps and what might be part of the best solution, displacement maps for renders that require more heroic figures (mythology renders and so on). If a 1.0 setting on the full body morph and 1.0 on the displacement mapping (as an example)=a world class pro bodybuilder of today, I think a lot of people would find 0.5 a great setting for the type of renders they're looking to do in the heroic realm.

no, there aren't many vascular maps for m3. i know of one in the freestuff, and it's preview doesn't look very highly detailed. i don't know of any in the various stores, so there are probably some but not many (considering how much i shop). and none of that gets into the fine muscle details and texture that body muscular people of all types and sizes have. frankly, i'd be interested in it for a petite character i have in mind.

as for sales.... why is everyone thinking body builder? besides the post that was, imho as well as fls13's, rather insulting (it was like linking to an aunt jemima picture instead of mo'nique jackson or countess vaughn if someone requested curvy black woman), who mentioned body builders? time it with the olympics and the specific events, and do characters based on the atheletes. the women in beach volleyball tend to be incredibly muscular and defined and also very beautiful. you could have a whole olympians line (and therefore maybe reuse some building-block elements), and do sprinters, divers, gymnasts (they're mostly adorable, but you can see their muscles through their leotards), maybe even some of the martial artists. pair it with textures for the catsuit or 2nd skins (shader spider has a freebie version that vendors can package with their product and allows loading of partial or "wedge" shaders), and it would probably be pretty popular. i know i wouldn't have been able to resist a venus williams or marion jones clone, where i have no clue who more than half of gwendolyn's characters are and care even less. edited to add: i am not trying to detract from gwendolyn's lovely work, simply explain that i don't keep up enough with stars to know who many of her characters refer to.

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 14:28

Quote - People have gotten on these boards asking about textures for black people or morphs for heavy-set people, but no one would, or should, reply by linking to a picture of a black person or an overweight person and saying that they don't consider this attractive for a man or woman. It's just plain wrong to do so.

My "butt ugly" comments are not racially based. I don't care if the muscled up person is black, white, red, or a little green man from Mars. A well toned body is nice to look at. Something like in that link above is monstrous and hideous to behold. For the record, I also find that Arnold Schwarzenegger's body during his "Terminator" days, was pretty gross looking too. There is a point where "fit" becomes hideous, and those that take bodybuilding to the extreme cross into that realm.

Well that's your choice, but why go out of your way and even choose to change the initial subject of this thread from "Why No Photo real Muscular Female Textures for V3" to "Ewwww! Yuck!"? That's hating. :O)

Classic. I somehow manage to scroll through page after page of anime, furries, faries, and other such stuff all of which I find "unattractive" without running it down - but a couple of people mention maybe paying a bit more attention to fitness/muscle girls and we get this:

"Something like in that link above is monstrous and hideous to behold. For the record, I also find that Arnold Schwarzenegger's body during his "Terminator" days, was pretty gross looking too.

There is a point where "fit" becomes hideous, and those that take bodybuilding to the extreme cross into that realm."

How on earth does this belong in this thread? If you don't like it don't look at it (like I do with the things I mentioned), and no harm done. Some of us DO like it and would like to more easily and effectively replicate it in our "art."

Take a look at prime (not competition) pictures of Deann Donovan, Debbie Kruck, Dale Tomita, Timea Majarova, Danielle Edwards, Corey Everson, maybe even Joanna Thomas, just to name a few and tell me they're "hideous." I think a girl with some muscle on her is smokin' hot.

That's the kind of thing I'd like to be able to access in Poser and frankly there just isn't anything out there that approaches it - the morphs I'm aware of just don't cut it, probably more as a result of meshes that aren't designed for it. Even She Freak is inadequate - her bicepts become pyramids if you try to do anything with them while her thighs become these bizzarro balloons if you go past about .3 with any of the morphs. I think SP probably has the best mesh for it of the widely used figures (see what Blackhearted's done with her in his Irina line) - she's got potential, with the right morphs, the right textures and a good vascular displacement map. Jules made a nice muscular morph for V3, maybe she could do one for SP too?

Unzipped

edited to add: If anyone wants to pony up and buy me a copy of ZBrush I'd be happy to try my hand at making muscle girl morphs - I've tried Blender and Wings and the workflow is just too much hassle for me. I'm only half kidding here - I always "fantasize" about picking up ZBrush. ;)

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 16:20 edited again to add: Anton, or any other figure makers out there listening, I for one would pay extra (I'm talking anywhere up to $100) for a female Poser figure that could fit this niche. Just something to keep in mind.

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 16:23

Attached Link: http://www.fitsights.com/competitions/results/olympia2003/expo_pix/expo17.jpg

and i, personally, was taking fls13's lead and making an analogy. no one accused you of being racist. the point is that hopping into a thread asking for something general in style (like muscular females or older females or ethnic characters or goth girls, whatever) with "that's ugly, and here's a link to prove it" and linking to a rather egregious and extreme example, almost a caracture, and skipping over all the examples that are less extreme, is an insult to those who have managed to fit the request (whatever it is) and be beautiful. as i mentioned, you were the only one who even brought up body building, let alone "amenorrhea inducing extremes," as someone else put it. and if you aren't interested in muscular characters (no one specified much on how muscular, frankly my about 60 year old dad has veins that show on his forearms and hands, has since i was little, and he doesn't even lift weights), why did you click on this thread? and even if you just wanted to weigh in as not being interested (making this a poll), why link to a picture of someone with almost entirely masculine features? i must admit, this comes off as hating to me, too. oh, and i can't find any m3 vascular maps in the marketplace. does anyone know of any? unzipped: have you looked at the blacksmith 3d morphing utility? i only ask because i've been interested in it (trekkiegrrl likes it, and it's info says it auto generates the new cr2). it's not bargain basement, but not too exorbinant either.

Attached Link: http://www.ronnie.cz/_img/Fotogalerie/1269_81_1.jpg

Cobaltdream - I did look into Blacksmith 3d - extensively. I worked with Dave (Conan) on solving some OpenGL issues I was running into using the demo, basically helped him do quite a bit of debugging and then he just sort of dropped out, without ever getting my OpenGL problems totally resolved. Additionally I have not been overly enthused at the results people seem to be getting from that application. I'd have dropped $60 on it just to see if I could do better with it, but with the OpenGL issues not resolved for me it was a non-starter. OpenGL works just fine for me in every other application which uses it, so I'm pretty certain it's an implementation issue confined to Blacksmith 3d - I don't have an esoteric computer system by any stretch. It seems (to me, totally subjective opinion) that the best morphs/characters are produced using ZBrush or something at or above its level. Unzipped

interesting. i'll keep that in mind. i've never been exceedingly attracted to zbrush (seems awfully complicated), though it has caught my eye. what seemed interesting about blacksmith was the workflow- from the info, it seemed one was always working with the whole figure -from import to export. but if there are major opengl problems.... well that puts a damper on my interest. as for quality, well, i think that's more in the hands of the morph maker. some of the morphs konan has posted have shown the level of control and detail i'd be interested in. and the process seems "sculpty" enough to make its usability about par with anything else for someone as inexperienced with modeling or morphing tools as i am (i don't have anything to unlearn). some of the best morphs i've seen have been z-brush derived, but they've also been done by stonemason. i am not at all under the illusion that i can purchase stonemason's talent for the cost of z-brush ;D (not implying you are). heck, my favorite morph products all come from capsces, and she uses the poser magnets (if you can believe it). they're cartoony and stylized, but if you use them on at low strengths, they're the best thing out there for ethnic morphs. anyway, bugs in the program is different. if it doesn't do what it says it does, usability is moot. thank you for sharing your experience.

oh, and thanks for the links to the pics. now those women look like they could actually wield a 15 lb. sword and take on a dragon! i especially like the first pic. they look like comic book action heroines.

is that vascular map for V3 only??? its very nice!!

any v3 texture will work on any other Unimesh figure, including m3, david, freak ..whatever. Maddie if you so desire :) Just remember the maps work on all the Mil3's and you can mix up sets to get exactly the look you need. If you want a more naturally muscular female figure check out SheFreak ..less joint issues than v3 bulked up. (and I have a freebie magnet set to convert clothes from v3 to fit her)

raven - yep, that was the freebie i was talking about. it's great and trekkiegrrl is awesome for being so generous with her talent. i love it on the legs but somehow the arms and chest look a bit... off to me. but more than that, i'd just like more choices than, say, one. oh, and if anyone ever does a female atheletes line during the 2006 olympics, i'd suggest "olympic gold" for the line's name. obvious, but still, thought i'd voice it.

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=516&cat=69

Allright when did Trekkie Girl do that map? I thought I was up an all such things (since there are so few) and I've never seen that one. Like Cobalt mentioned it's good in areas, but he arms do look a bit off. The M2 conversion ends up more in the right positions but it's a bit too strong/blocky - also I'd rather not have to buy an M2 texture and the Texture Converter just to get a vascular map for Mil Figures.

Lyrra thanks for that magnet set - I've used it a few times. Good work!

Cobalt - try the Blacksmith 3D demo out for yourself. If you don't experience OpenGL wierdness you should be able to use it fine. I don't want to put anyone off of it just because I had a difficult experience with it - at least try the demo for yourself.

Unzipped

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 17:56

Quote - I don't think so...

As I said, there is a difference between "toned" and grossly over developed. The image you link to is what I consider a toned body. They still maintain their "girlish" shape.

Quote - but why go out of your way and even choose to change the initial subject of this thread

I frequently change the subject line in my posts. This is no exception.

Quote - There is a point where "fit" becomes hideous, and those that take bodybuilding to the extreme cross into that realm."

How on earth does this belong in this thread? If you don't like it don't look at it (like I do with the things I mentioned), and no harm done. Some of us DO like it and would like to more easily and effectively replicate it in our "art."

And we are all entitled to our opinion.

Vali stated:

Quote - well...as a texture maker... I know that when you make a female character with a masculine look...and I am talking about muscles and other features as a square jaw and tough look in her eyes, it doesnt really sell...believe me.

I tried...it was a big disapointment. People prefer to buy nicelly shaped characters and the sweeter they look, the better they sell.

You can consider me one of the buyers who prefer to buy nicely shaped characters. And judging by what Vali said, there are more like me than there are those who want female Hurcules-type figures. And the fact that people don't buy them in droves, indicates that there isn't a real market for them. I'm sure a modeler would find a small niche for that type of figure, but once that niche has bought the figure, then what? You can't feed your family by making something that only a few will buy. Message edited on: 11/04/2005 18:08

Attached Link: http://208.234.20.192/galleries/fitness/fitness8/DA192.JPG

Anton is apparently coming out with a female version of Apollo Maximus. Now whether that means she will be as muscle bound or not, I don't know. I would suspect that he would be including morphs that could take the figure to the extreme if that's what people like.

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 18:27

I hope so Acadia - I mentioned this request and that I'd be happy to pay up to $100 for it in one of the earlier posts. Maybe those of us interested in this could pool our resources and comission someone to make something that would fill this niche? Unzipped

hmmm. seeing as apollo has no fine muscle, vein or even rib definition, i wouldn't be looking to anton to make this. he's good enough, don't get me wrong, but if he didn't feel there was enough demand for his male character, i doubt he will for his female. and actually, i find apollos trapezius kind of extreme even in default. just the other day i saw a guy with huge muscles and chest but less extreme (and imo) traps/shoulder line than apollo has without any bulking up morphs. frankly, i'm really interested in the lean toned look more than bulky or "female Hurcules-type[sic] figures". though i would definitely say yes to a deeann donovan inspired character. that pic is very Image (comics). oh, and acadia, if all you had done was voice your opinion, as i think i mentioned before, i personally wouldn't have said anything. though "ewww" is not quite constructive criticism. just not saying anything would have meant you weren't included in the group of requesters. oh, and my apollo disclaimer: i think he's a high quality character well worth the price, just lacking in details (even with add-ons) i like to have in my male figures. for many, i'm sure his great joints and morphability (not a word, but it should be) outweigh this concern.

i'd be willing to throw my money in the pot. edited for extreme redundancy.

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 18:55

Thankfully Im a strong believer of I.D.I.C., so I dont allow any artificially "tastefullness" or "decency" to restrict me in my exploration of the human form.

I always wonder why people are so insecure about their own preferences, so that they have to jump at any chance to belittle those of other peoples ?
It seems the mere existence of a character they dont approve of frightens the hell out of them, less alone the fact that there seem to be lots of potential buyers, if the great success of adult muscle websites is any indication.

I wonder how many downloads Id get for one of my Ladys ?

;-)

Back to the topic, Id say Stephanie I has the best out of the box muscle morphs, followed closely by V2.
V3 and even She-freaks body still looks a bit too much "Fittness/Superhero" style to me, with a small "feminine" waist.
Real female Bodybuilders tend to loose their waist and are of amore bulkier/stockier appearance.
Nothing a few Magnets could handle, though. ^-^

Heres my Steph I:

And here my Vicky 2:

Ill have to check out TrekkieGirls Vein map now.

Note to myself: Make a Denise Masino morph for V3 and get stinkinrich. ;-)

stahlratte

Stahlratte - is that the standard Stephanie 1 or are there custom morphs/magnets applied? I didn't use her much when I got her - maybe it's time to dust her off again.

That V2 doesn't look as good (no offense) - her, V3 and She Freak don't muscle up so much as the balloon up. Their arms and legs all end up looking like sausages. And the shoulders on almost all the DAZ figures are just odd looking (sometimes even without a muscle morph). Then there are the lats/traps which become oddly shaped bulges looking more like bone than muscle. And I've yet to see the abdomen morphed in to anything but an overpronounced "six pack" when most of the time its relatively flat and taught. The meshes just don't support it really well.

And yes you'd be rich if you made a Denise Masino morph if I had anything to do with it - as long as it didn't include the face. Would you consider doing a Joanna Thomas as well? ;)

Unzipped

Message edited on: 11/04/2005 19:11

Yep, thats the original "Mystery Mesh", Steph I. (Only difference is that this is AprilYishs remapped to V2 version I used. The morphs are standard morphs, except for the hip. As Steph Is hip is different from M2, it doesnt carry over his muscle morphs, so I had to make a custom morph for t to blend in with the body. I also used two magnest to give her a bulkier waist. But besides that, shes just dial spinning. As for V2, hmm, yes and no. I agree Steph Is morphs ARE better, but to me V2 gives the impression of having more body fat, more like a wightlifter for example. stahlratte

I really haven't read through all of this but I did notice the initial post didn't mention vascular maps but there was a lot of questioning that wasn't asked from the first. That being said, this is something that should probably be done in model morphs except for the vascular aspect. You can push it further with the muscle striations etc but the vascular is the first area. I haven't seen any specifically for the females or many that are totally seperate from the bump but I have a couple of products that have vascular maps (but for the guys). This has bumps http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1647&cat= This is a more recent version that has a displacement set that is pretty easily transfered to the females. http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=3484&cat= I also have soemthing else coming out that also includes muscle striations.

Quote - though "ewww" is not quite constructive criticism

True enough :) Message edited on: 11/04/2005 20:44

stahlratte - i like that steph character. she'd give me a chance to try out steph max (the revamp of steph). g.o.m. - yay! and just out of curiousity, what's the difference between the bump and displacement maps in the rogues? and i notice only one body map is listed, but it seems as if two are shown (one hairless and one with chest hair). is the hairy one a separate product?

Cobaltdream .. The bump is for small changes such as fine wrinkles, normal bumps, pores etc .. the displacement is for the veins, wrinkles in the hand, wrinkles at the back of the elbow etc. There is only one body map. The other hairy one is using the bodysuit and the david hairy for it by Jepe ... I had it on the related products but it didn't seem to make it into the list.

Well, I may be a bit of a fanatic, but I really respect bodybuilders. I've never been one myself but I have been a hockey player over the years, and weight training helped my game a lot and when you go to the gym, there they are, so naturally a conversation is going to develop. People are people and everyone is a person. No need for hating. I don't like it.