Attached Link: My Tribute to Clifftoppler

Billy, the opperative part SnowS's statement was "*If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman..."

*A lot of people do put V3 in high end programs and still render naked pictures of her.  Generally speaking, though, these people take the time to learn the program as you would expect from someone who is williing to set down big bucks to do.

I have Carrara, Hexagon, Bryce, 3D Studio Max and I still find myself rendering and creating things in Poser.  I use these other applications (well, mainly 3D Studio) for my professional work and it is a lot more boring than what I create in Poser (Flying logos, animated transitions and such for TV).

I will concede that Poser's (and Daz Studio's) accessibility does result in a poliferation of amateur results.  I will also concede that the artist might want to think twice before trying to show these results in a professional gallery and that an artist might want to take criticism and try and grow from it.

I will also add that those doling out criticisms should maybe be a little less heavy handed and a bit more encouraging.  Earlier in this post someone connected the early or less refined works to sketches, and I think this is a good analogy.

Poser is not my professional medium.  I know my results are not at a point where they may be publishable or comparable to professionals.  I don't expect that I should be treated as an equal, but I do expect to be treated as a human being.

Renderosity and it's contemporaries exsist as a place where everyone is on an equal playing field.  This is a place where we should welcome newcomers and while we can offer tips and techniques, none of us are qualifed to tell anyone what they should or should not post (within the TOS, of course, and then, that is best left to the mods).

It might be nice to see galleries divided into experience or "skill levels", but this would still have to be left as the choice of the artist.  I'm afraid I'd see a lot of top notch artists trying to be humble and posting in the "amateur" section while a lot of artists who still have a lot to learn would put themselves in the "advanced".  In the end, it is subjective.

i understand that thromm i was just pointing out that  those who have modeling apps often use them to model.

as for being treated equally well whatever our levels of skill i can only agree with. we only do ourselves a disservice when we say hurtfull things. as for the skill level thing...i think the very skilled level would have many in and the not so skilled very few...just call me cynical lol. i would def be in the unskilled lol

billy

I would urge anyone reading the original poster's comments not to let someone else tell you how you should express yourself. No matter what your Poser scenes look like, if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist.

"those who have modeling apps often use them to model"

Thank you, Billy, upon re-reading, I see I missed your point, my appologies.

"if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist."

And Wizardkiss, I fully agree, well said!

Too true **Wizardkiss.
**My original post was just my personal preferences.

Opening a national UK newspaper the other day I was almost surprised to see a whole cast of Poser characters staring up at me & it wasn't the first time either, why is it that the mainstream media can accept poser for what it is & does but the "big Boys" still see it as the poor cousin?

Quote - "those who have modeling apps often use them to model"

Thank you, Billy, upon re-reading, I see I missed your point, my appologies.

"if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist."

And Wizardkiss, I fully agree, well said!

no apologies needed.

and whilst i agree to a certain extent with wizardkiss shouldn't we all strive to do better in our so called art. shouldn't we look and listen to those with the knowledge to help us. (to good advice not demands) i fear that to often we close ourselves off thinking we know better. i know for a fact that without the help of others my art which i can't in all honesty class as art would be much inferior than it is. 

billy

*'and whilst i agree to a certain extent with wizardkiss shouldn't we all strive to do better in our so called art. shouldn't we look and listen to those with the knowledge to help us. (to good advice not demands) i fear that to often we close ourselves off thinking we know better. i know for a fact that without the help of others my art which i can't in all honesty class as art would be much inferior than it is. 

billy'

*To choose to strive to improve the art or any other activity I persue in life would certainly be my philosophy, but for some it seems a forced option - 'make more of an effort or don't bother at all'.
Perhaps my interpretation of the original poster's tone is misread, but that was kind of the impression I got - an attitude I cannot abide. It is an attidude that seems to me by intent to lend more support to the views of the elitists than to offer balanced and helpful advice to those that might want it.
Had someone asked the question ' why arn't I satisfied by the images I create with Poser?', or 'what am I doing wrong?', I wouldn't have a problem with such giving of advice. But there was a politic behind that original post from my reading of it - one that tries to defend the corner of the Poser bashers and detractors of the more casual 3d hobbyists, even if it does have some reasoned and helpful points.

The issue of people posting certain kinds of images in venues that are deemed inappropiate is another matter - perhaps the more salient issue with regard thread to which the original poster here was referring to. Even then, if a forum or gallery is intended to be exclusively for images with a particular derivation, that should be clearly indicated in the venue and images violating those terms should simply be removed...if they really want to get all policey about it.

Reacting to various posts as well as the tone of the original post all in one go : "The high and mighty opinion that art can only be created by an elite group of people who have some archane know-how is a bunch of utter crap. Art is part of the human condition and is something that should be accessible to everyone." Now I've lost which poster said that but I agree ... and would add that art IS accessible to everyone. Is a persons who creates images in Poser not an 'artist' because they don't sell it ? Because someone doesn't like it ? Because there is room for improvement ? Because they might purchase components for it ? Is a person having artistic impulses and making creative decisions not an artist at that moment ? Are only Artists with a capital "A" because they are working in a professional capacity allowed to name themselves as such ? I know some professional artists in the moneymaking sense of the word who in my book sometimes produce total crap, be they book illustrators, sculptors, landscape painters , musicians or photographers ( All friends I like very much so don't tell I said that please. I am honest if they ask me though ;-) They don't always like what I do professionally either ) For instance CG Talk galleries, yes a lot of technically amazing pieces..... and still theres girls, amazons, barbarians, pretentious, sci-fi stuff, bowls of fruit, wine glasses etc. interspersed amongst other things. And a lot of it though technically proficient, and executed by professionals, leaves me only impressed by technique. Excellent technique can cover up quite well other things that may be lacking. I've seen more passion in a picture done by an autistic adult with crayons than much of what is either here or there. But so what. Some one might be an amateur but they are still an artist. Is someone not a poet because he still supports himself by waiting tables ? Striving to be come better at anything one does, just living even, is never a bad thing. But all this comparison and one-up manship...no one gains by it. Belittling peoples methods/results because they don't aspire to the same standards is not constructive. I'll raise you up by cutting you down first. Do it this way, don't do it that way. Spare me the pain of having to look at what you create. 10 suggestions on how to impress me...... hochtuey Thats the sound of me spitting in a corner I like what wizardkiss said ""if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist." And I never post at CG Talk because my technique is not up to the average standard there in my own opinion and that is all that matters to me on that score, no other reason. Not because my current softwares of choice include Poser . And some day I'll do a wonderful bowl of fruit with lots of emotion and radiosity and everything and then never do a pin-up again.

Agree and Disagree.

Keep in mind everyone that NO ONE starts out great. When we ALL first started out and rendered out first 'masterpiece' we were proud of it and wanted to share it with the world. Most of us evolve and when we look back at out early masterpieces, we think 'what the hell was I thinking?!"

Everyone starts small before they get great and I do not begrudge them that learning time. 

Some of the true greats often use poser as just a base and then go on to other tools for the final image. They paint the hair on. Thay paint the clothes on. They change the atmosphere with any number of actionc/plug-ins/etc. No one does or learns how to do these things overnight!

So in the process, we have many images of less than great renders while they get better.

To placate these folks down with poser rendering, maybe when can create different cataeories to post in.

1. Beginner crap images from people on their way to becoming a great Poser artists.
2. Intermediate crap images from people on their way to becoming a great Poser artists.
   ...etc. 

Think that would help the problem any?

I also do not have a problem with 'canned' anything. Rarely do I use a canned pose as is, but if I have one that's close enough, I'll use it and I'll tweak it to what I want and I defy anyone to do it faster than that from a complete zero point pose!

I would love to be able to paint on clothes. I would love to be able to create a complete scene, say anything like from what I buy from DM (Excellent Products by the way!) 
But there's a whole new learning curve invloved there that most of us (I'm guessing) just don't have the time for. Let alone the extra hardware to do it properly (ie. graphics tablet vs mouse, programs, time to learn how, etc.)

No, I absolutely do not berate anyone going through the learning curve with poser, even if what they post is crap! They will not and can not get better if they don't!

AND, I'll say with absolute certainty that some of the best Poser artists (given all the tools they use) can easily go head-to-head anytime with any of the 'other' artists! Period.

But NONE of them started out without making crap in the begining.

My 2cents worth.

I really enjoyed this rant.  I started out with Poser 1, and painted everything over by myself.  Poser, at that point, was actually a tool for introducing reasonably proportioned figures into a cgwork.  I think Poser 1 was a good tool.  At some point, Poser became a means to an end, and, that old "make art" button was sought by many.  Around that time, I got sick of Poser.

I have little pictures, and scenes in my head.  None of them could be made with Michael, or Vicki, or, even a heavily morphed Aiko.  They involve creatures that are not mass produced, and, landscapes and lighting that really don't exist in the real world.  I love these little critters, but, could not make them without knowing how to model, texture, rig and light.  If I can't get behind premade stuffages in a Poser scene that's because my own unique imagination doesn't show me premade stuffages.  Nope, I like the other worldly, fantasy critters that can only be one of a kind.  Sure the Millenium Dragon is a very nice dragon....but, he ain't the twig dragon that I'm working on right now.  Nor could he be morphed into that tree dragon.

As to photography....Well, I carry my digital camera EVERYWHERE.  Sometimes, even the most mundane things, if they are showing an interesting balance of light, color, or shadow, can sing to my soul.  Occasionally, something will also be of later use as part of a texture.  However, I am not a photographer.  I just try to catch what captures me in the first place.

I disagree, agree and shake my head all at Pengi's post.

I disagree..Poser is very much like photography.  I have studied photography...it's all stock lights, objects people and textures, pre posed and all you do is hit a button.  But if that's all you do you get crap.  You have to use those elements well...then there all sorts of post processing that goes on from coloring to recomp.

Same with poser.

I agree with much of the rest of Pengi's post.  However Poser has been in many painting and illustrator books for quite awhile now...I have lots.  I've seen at least one with Daz Studio in it.  People are doing good things...and bad professionally (bad:  Walmart's self checkout lines features posette)

And finally become hard to take you seriously when you don't follow your own advice.  Original characters...sometimes..backgrounds...maybe...modeling...hard to say...post work...nil...lighting bad..shadows...faded...overall flat.

and yet..it could still be art to someone.

Nicely put wizardkiss. 
at tthe end of the day, the artist is the one that has to be happy with what they created.  At some point, you begin to evolve, and find your own personal style.  That style may not fit well with others, but you have to just smile and nod.
BTW, I work in the Fine Art Community, and sometimes, you see things constructed with macaroni that are so beautiful that you don't notice the medium.
and that's what we're talking about here isn't it?  "The Medium Is The Message."....  
Will my work ever be considered Fine Art....... man, I hope not, because then I will have become a Professional.  I enjoy my amateur standing (comes from the French "doing for the love of...")  I love doing what I do.  I make independent/underground movies.  Should I quit just because Hollywood makes bigger and more expensive things.  No...... and the same No applies to members posting here at Rendo.
Post because you are happy with what you have created.  Post even though some will slam you because they may not like your style or subject.   Creating art, your own art, is a lifelong pursuit, you won't achieve the perfection overnight, and you shouldn't.... Nirvana is boring, no surprises.
but that's just me......... cooler heads may prevail..... or not.

My app of choice gets even less respect in most cg communities than Poser, but that doesn't stop me from using it.  I know I will never be a "real" artist in the eyes of traditional artists since I have no talent with traditional media or in the eyes of professional cg artists since I can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on apps like 3ds or Maya.

I've seen V3 used in brilliant POV Ray and Maya scenes where the artists took the time to sculpt every last building, vehicle, stick of furniture and hand paint every texture, yet s/he hasn't applied one morph or changed one thing about the default V3.

Raises hand  I have to admit I'm guilty of this particularly in scenes where the people aren't the main focus of the image (I used to have a serious Poser mannequin adiction because I liked the "generic-ness" of the mannequin).

I have no problem with people using "canned" content especially when all this is just a hobby for the people using the canned content.  I usually use a mixture of my own models and premade models depending on the scene.  Sometimes my models look better than what I can find (or afford), sometimes the premade models are better.  I've thought about offering some of the things I've made as freebies but most of them aren't really compatible with "standard" 3d software so I doubt there would be much interest.

*This might be a shameless plug, but I was inspired to make this image the last time the "Poser art" question came up.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1281004

art: the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance. As has been discussed by other posters here, there is no difinitive answer to what qualifies as art. Or even good and bad art. Of all the things in this world, art is one of the most subjective. I do what I do because I feel a drive to create. Something inside of myself wants to come out in a form of creative expression. Like 1358, I proudly consider myself an amateur because I do it for the love of it. Do I want to improve my skills? Sure. I would hope that everyone does and that their own drives push them to go past the stock models, textures or whatever medium they are in, and explore how far they can push it to better express themselves in a creative and unique manner. We are all at different skill levels on Renderosity. If you don't like something, there is no-one making you click on that thumb to take a look at it. Do something because you love doing it and try not think less of others because they are not where you are at in your creative journey. Wikipedia has worthwhile entry for "Art," I recommend taking a peek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art

A friend sent me here because he thought I might be interested in this discussion. One part of me is itching to get in here & share my profound thoughts about the aesthetics & philosophy of art, but another part of me realizes it's a waste of time. There will always be way more crappy art, crappy music, crappy books, crappy movies, etc. etc. than the good stuff. Given that we have finite lifetimes & a finite amount of time to spend on art, would you rather spend your time bemoaning & criticizing the crappy stuff or creating & appreciating the good stuff?

Well said. :b_tonguewink:

"Photography is the art of the tangible, of reality. It is a moment in time. The very nature of photography is based on three things performed against a pre-existing tangible subject or event found within the scope of reality to produce art: composition, lighting, and color. In photography, you are taking something that exists and committing it to either film or pixel, in the hopes that the story you tell with it will last orders of magnitude longer than the short moment in which it was composed. Sometimes it is distorted (e.g. fashion photography), but is still grounded in either manipulating or fixing the fleeting reality into the permanent."

Yeah, photographers love to make it sound all arty like that ;)  I still don't see the difference.  Modeling is like sculpting, rendering is like photography.  If I download someone's models and render them, I've essentially photographed them with a virtual camera.  There's no guarantee it'll be good or interesting, nor is it necessarily art any more so than a photo of a thumb taken by accident.  It's the aforementioned elements of composition, lighting, and colour that seperate a good, interesting,  rendered image from a poor, boring, one.  Whether the elements rendered were created by the "artist" concerns me much less than how much of the scene composition was their choice.  I'm not defending those people who click load, click render then click save.  I'm just unable to see any appreciable distinction between paying someone to pose for a photo and buying a figure from a vendor with regard to "artiness".  Of course I generally prefer real models to virtual ones but then again a photographer can't really claim credit for any of his model's natural qualities but rather only how they are captured by the photograph.

Why is Poser getting such a bad rap? Sturgeon's Law holds everywhere. 90% of ALL CGI is crap -- 90% of all art, traditional or computer, is crap. The problem Poser has, is their 90% is big, growing bigger, and slopping all over the place. Used to be 3ds MAX or MAYA functioned a bit like an exclusive social club. You had to pony up the cash for the software and the time to learn it to get in. So the galleries inside were still 90% crap, but at least you could find the jewels thrown in among the dross. Enter Poser. Fill every available gallery and other outlet to bursting. Hundreds of new images, if not thousands, posted daily. You can't wade through that kind of crap in an afternoon. It takes so much more effort to find that 10% -- made in any program or combination thereof -- because there is so much MORE in toto. So no wonder the MAX people are upset. Heck...the old-time Poser users are upset; used to be, when you posted to a gallery you got noticed. Now, a place like Rendo, you can't post fast enough to see your own image at the top of the gallery page! Turn around, and it is buried twenty deep. And this is regardless of quality or lack thereof. Hey, a lot of stuff in the gallery is pretty decent. Does it make me feel any better to have the result of my labors vanish under twenty better images? Would we feel any better here in the heart of the Poserverse if the MAYA users struck back and filled our galleries with pictures of chess pieces on polished stone tables? No solution. No advice. No value judgements. Just an effort to understand why the emotions run so high.

Quote - Given that we have finite lifetimes & a finite amount of time to spend on art, would you rather spend your time bemoaning & criticizing the crappy stuff or creating & appreciating the good stuff?

 
Exactly!!!

First of all, I don't consider myself as an artist or whatever name people wanna call me, as I really don't care.  I only use Poser as a hobby, just for fun, that's it,  
Second, who cares if people use "canned" textures, or props or whatever.  Let them use whatever they wanna use and however they want.  It's their choice.  If some real "artists" think those are not worthy, well too bad!!!  Go ahead and create your own almighty "artworks" and pat yourself on the back.  Why bother wasting your time complaining about crappy stuff that so frustrate you.

Penguinisto:
Btw, I've just took a quick look at your gallery expecting to see some eye popping masterpieces considering that you seemed to have this "art" stuff all figured out.  Well, let's just say that I've seen many other NVIATWAS with way better lighting, composition, and shadows etc.  Maybe you should consider buying yourself one of those "canned" elements to learn about improving your "artwork" first before criticizing others for their crappy stuff.
Just a harmless suggestion from a seven-year-old kid busting into an art competition with a glued-together macaroni.  Have a nice day.

Sometimes I think the problem is the moniker put on it "Artist".  Photographer, playwrighter, actor, painter....... or 3d/CGI....... guess what, all art.

When i started using poser, I thought my work was utterly brilliant....... when now i look back, eeeeeeghads what was I thinking?  It was actually that, over time, looking back, that I said, "Oh god I have to do better than this!!"

I started with poser, photoshop and a wacom tablet, and bryce, because working in oil pencils and coals was...... pretty problematic with two small inquisitive (and dare i say artistic?) children.  Picture the walls, you get the idea.

After realizing, oops, plastic, and making other notations such as sun is coming from the right but in this render I have the light coming from the left......... it was time to fix this.

I scoured the web, renderosity in particular and the tutorials were a BLOODY GOLD MINE.  Step by step...... and I had been an artist before, on paper with pencils....... now?

My office looks like a high tech lab, LOL.  My kids are as fascinated with the wacom as they were with the pencils, but they can't figure it out to save their lives! yay!.

From using plug ins and copy/paste hair to..........dare i say it, painting strand by strand, wow, what a difference.

It takes time and i'm no where NEAR perfect and at many shrines of art in the galleries i worship and am not worthy, I aspire to be like (not exact copies, just learn the techniques and run).

I find the poser proposition an interesting one, and justhad a post because on another art site, the method, not the art, was more critiqued.

I can stand to hear "lighting stinks....... god what color choice?" you know, somethings technically or artistically WRONG.  But "how" i did it?  I'm just not used to that.

We suffer I think, because...... in the non computer life, a new artist, say a teen, draws an image of their favorite game character off a CD case or whatever..... and shows all his friends.  Its rough, its new, he's never drawn before....... some say its crap, some say its great, and he tries again.

The problem is with poser, when we show things online, in galleries, the new user and the old hat........ we are all just lumped in like one person.  There's no mercy for the new user anymore, lol.  Its true, but we all start with crap.  God knows I did.

But...... what if there's 1300 new poser users posting thier masterpieces in deviant art?  At elfwood?   These are people used to seeing line drawings or oil paintings, not new 3d users.

Some are just, bloody harsh.

Quote - art: the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance. As has been discussed by other posters here, there is no difinitive answer to what qualifies as art. Or even good and bad art. Of all the things in this world, art is one of the most subjective. I do what I do because I feel a drive to create. Something inside of myself wants to come out in a form of creative expression. Like 1358, I proudly consider myself an amateur because I do it for the love of it. Do I want to improve my skills? Sure. I would hope that everyone does and that their own drives push them to go past the stock models, textures or whatever medium they are in, and explore how far they can push it to better express themselves in a creative and unique manner. We are all at different skill levels on Renderosity. If you don't like something, there is no-one making you click on that thumb to take a look at it. Do something because you love doing it and try not think less of others because they are not where you are at in your creative journey. Wikipedia has worthwhile entry for "Art," I recommend taking a peek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art 

::claps:: And this, my friends, is why I so enjoy the Photography forum here.

-Melen

Oh, and not to be cruel.... If you are doing art only to satisfy yourself, why are you posting it online? By posting in a public gallery you enter into an unspoken contract with the viewer; that there is something THEY can get out of YOUR art. Which engenders in you a subtle but powerful obligation to learn a little basic craft. If you desire to communicate, and by making photo-realistic pictures of human subjects have at least pretended to adopt a certain tradition, perhaps you should make a little effort to learn the language of that tradition (perspective, anatomy, light and shadow)...instead of pouting that "they don't understand me because I'm too deep." /RANT

Quote - Oh, and not to be cruel.... If you are doing art only to satisfy yourself, why are you posting it online?

Easy to answer: hopefully those viewing my stuff will have pointers on how I can improve. Sure, I could (and do) rely on reading material (especially for photography), but sometimes it's a person with experience that can point out some small detail that can help me produce something more pleasing (to myself). The reverse works as well... Sometimes having reinforcement that I "got it right" lets me know I'm on the right path.

-Melen

Here's the issue.

It's that when you all use the same mesh, the same textures, the same default settings, and dare I say it- the same concepts, the work becomes utterly indistinguishable.

Imagine if you will if you gave a bunch of high school students a low-end digital camera, and a box full of toys ( a handful of GI Joes, Barbies, Transformers, and some random monster figures) freshly purchased that week. Create a stage with three lights and look at the results...

A good deal of the results would be VERY similar.

Even if these students went to Toys R Us and bought some vehicles, props and costumes, the results would still be pretty predictable.

Now imagine if you give the students raw materials and tell them to create their own characters. Instead of giving them a stage and a lighting setup, give them the lights and materials to build a stage/setup.

Give them wood, tin foil, styrene, broken stereo parts, scraps of cloth, acrylic paints, crazy glue, a dremel tool, a hacksaw and a power drill.

Suddenly the work will be far more unique. Dominic's work will look diffrent than Brad's, even though they both decide to make robots. Sandra creates a rainbow colored cat, whereas Jane makes a figure she calls "Radio Lady" with speakers for ears. Devon makes a pimped out car with a rocket on the back.

How do I know this?  I teach found-object sculpture and comic illustration to middle and high school students.

By contrast, the more specific elements you offer to someone, the tighter the cage that their thinking falls into. And that's exactly the trap that people fall into. They start working with their credit cards instead of their hands.

Just another two cents.

I do 3D for my own satisfaction.  Not to seek out the good opinions of others.

If anyone likes something that I've done: then that's very much appreciated.  But it's not essential to my peace of mind.

I've started into Lightwave -- but not in a misguided effort to gain respect.  I got into LW simply because it looked interesting to me.  As does Poser....still.  I most definitely did not get into LW so that I could feel important.

I did it for fun.

I wonder if model railroading enthusiasts like to yell at each other?

*"N" scale.......?  I can't believe that you'd use that type of garbage!!!!  Real railroaders only use "O" !!!!!!  Everybody knows that!!!!!!!!!!

*Am I an artist?  I'd say yes.  I only wish that the term "artist" and the term "art" were not so often used as subconscious synonyms for the term "egotist" and for the tern "elitist".

Poser is 3D for the everyman.  I don't like elitists, and I don't like elitist attitudes.  I certainly have no problems with bettering oneself; or with encouraging others to better themselves.  But I do have a problem with those whose chief joy in life involves a sneer.

 Frankly, most people have neither the time, the money, nor the inclination to learn how to drive a formula 1 racer.  But that doesn't mean that they can't (or that they don't have a right to) enjoy a Sunday afternoon drive out in their own car.......and that others can't enjoy the ride right along with them.

I have YET to meet a hobby, occupation, field, study, science, or anything else that didn't have partisanship with occasional screaming matches. Best we can do is understand why these arise, and be aware when you cross one of those invisible lines between territories. (Aka, don't go into GC-Talk and start talking about Poser! ^_^)

Hmmm...
I agree with Penguinisto.
Only read a few replies.

I'm guilty of cutting corners as well as the next person, but some of the stuff I see in the gallery is just... pure crap. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.

I totally agree on Light Sets btw. For cripes sake, lighting is the be-all and end-all of any image. Learn it! Sit down and see what you can do with one light. Two. Play with shaders, play with the shadow, athmosphere etc.
I guarantee you if I look at the gallery now I'll see the first page full of stuff I could knock out in five minutes flat, provided I got the bits used.
And if it's not right - do it again. Improve on it. Post it, act on constructive comments (if you get any, which isn't easy) and repost it.

I can't model worth a damn, but I fiddle with magnets a fair bit to tweak stuff.
The one thing I'm guilty of the most is that I'm impatient heheh.
I will render the 'almost right' rather than tweak more, but often I go back later and fix what turned messy.

Is it Art?
That depends.
If I use a prefab V3 & texture, prefab pose, prefab clothing & textures, prefab background, prefab lights, prefab surrounds.... and then hit render without doing anything else? Then no. It's not.

If I pose the thing myself, tweak settings of materials, make a bumpmap where there is none, change a texture to be more what I need for the figure, possibly displace some bits with my own displacement map, pull on the mesh some with a magnet to iron out a crease / lump / bump ill fitting something or other... yank it over to Vue/Bryce/Carrara to have a "homegrown" background... paint in the hair in Photoshop, tweak levels, postwork errors... (Any or all of those I mean)
To me, the result is more Art than the previous example. Because you spent the time to get it "right" even if it's not "right" in every aspect.

THAT is what Peng is talking about. A little effort goes a long, long way.
Practice - as they say - makes perfect.

Those going with the first option are the ones hurting the Poser community. Those going with the second option... stand a better chance of being taken semi seriously.
I say semi seriously, because the first option already ruined Poser's credibility and (generally) it's the best we can hope for.

If that's elitist... ok. Fine. I'd like to think I'm more of a perfectionist than an elitist. For one thing I'm nowhere near good enough to be an Elitist lol. If something produces a good end result and if I can see the creativity of the user shine through on the render - then I would never dream of dismissing it, regardless of the medium.

Too true, Xeno, but it is an attitude that can be taken to extremes. There are millions of weekend painters. They enjoy the process, they have a basic command of the tools. They get out there and paint their vases of flowers or their old wooden boat, and they enjoy them, and their friends enjoy them. They don't DEMAND that their paintings be allowed to hang in the Louvre, or be sold at Southeby's. The 3d world is a little too recent, too raw, and too much entangled with the basic architecture of the online world; many-to-many, not the one-to-many of the old Studio system (or, in an earlier age, the defining tastes of the court who sponsored the artists and set the style for all that could afford it to emulate.) There isn't much in place to sort the incredible volume of work that is coming though. It comes down to a competition for eyeballs. By saying "My Poser work is as worthy as your Lightwave work" you are also saying "I don't care if you are an LW professional looking for information to help you in your career....you are going to have to sit through all this Poser stuff to get to what you need." As the 3d world evolves, it will naturally form itself into more and more landscapes to where the expectations of the participant will be more closely met; schools, specialties, genres, movements. This is both good and bad; good because when you are working on a deadline you don't need to deal with dead wood (aka scroll through items that have nothing to do with your specific software), and bad because as borders are drawn the people inside become insular, and lose the greater understanding and the access to the original thinking that comes from outside their particular box.

Quote - I have YET to meet a hobby, occupation, field, study, science, or anything else that didn't have partisanship with occasional screaming matches. Best we can do is understand why these arise, and be aware when you cross one of those invisible lines between territories. (Aka, don't go into GC-Talk and start talking about Poser! ^_^)

YET! :)

Something to think about: I thought that ART had everything to do with perfecting your skills as much as possible... so I went to art school (college in American English) for six years. I learned everything there was to learn about various art forms and chose a specialisation in graphic design. The most important thing that I learned though, is that once you have learned everything, you have to omit it all to come to the essence... keep purifying, simplifying, focusing on that one pure 'message' and trash all the superfluous and unnecessary. And that can be the longest process of all... but certainly the most rewarding in the end. I have seen works where the 'artist' had put all his acquired skills all together in one image or work, and in the end I just ended up asking myself: "what on earth is he trying to say to me? That he can do it all..?" Lately I've been working with mentally disabled people. I've seen some incredible images, paintings, sculptures that they created. And I couldn't help myself thinking: "Here I am, coming all this way, from school, over 15 years as a graphic designer, only to find that these people are creating the art that I would so love to create, but can't, because I can't shake off all that damned 'knowledge' and 'skill' that I thought was necessary to go through first"... Don't let knowledge and skill be like a blindfold or a blinding sun... It's YOUR VISION that counts. If you know the mature works of Picasso, you probably know what I'm talking about...

maybe thats why we're told it's easier to break the rules if we know what the rules are. a sort of structured chaos.

as for elitists and other who think themselves better i post the first two stanza after the opening  couplet of desidarta one of my favorite poems.

sadly i'm a loud person so please avoid me lol

billy

As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. 

I believe, from a certain amount of hanging out around both traditional and 3d artists, that the part of the equation too many forget is OBSERVATION. It is one thing to let go of the craft skills. It is quite another to never have had them, or the discipline to look at the world, understand it however imperfectly, and be able to form an internal vision in response it. Pointing no fingers whatsoever, but some of the loudest cries I have heard claiming that inner beauty trumps craft are from those who, from all evidence, aspire to nothing more than slavish copy-cat of commercial works, and their only uniqueness is how badly they fail in that attempt. But this is off the point. Poser gets no respect because the price of entry is so low. And it even carries the ability to fool those who don't know it well; many has been the tale of a stock V3 wowing them at bastions of "modeled it all from scratch, yes I did." Poser is, however, actively DISLIKED because it is too efficient. It is the GarageBand of the 3d world; more people are making more 3d faster, and the old systems are simply not set up to deal with it. More than anything else, what marks Poser is how MUCH of it there is. And with that much volume, patterns that might otherwise be hidden by the efforts of the individual artists make themselves apparent; like the way watercolors always reveal themselves, the basic constraints of Poser make themselves visible when seen en masse; bad anatomy, broken poses, queasy lighting, flat eyes, cardboard clothing, figure-centric staged renders, and so forth. All of these may be and often are surpassed by individual artists -- just as individual watercolors can have the depth and opacity of oils, or the fine detail of acrylics -- but the net impression of viewing the totality is that of the worst qualities of the program.

Good idea to bring these verses into the discussion, billy.. ;o))

if only i could adhere to them girsempa :)

billy

We could have a contest for the best Poor Dissed Poser Artist Limerick?
Maybe in a writers forum?
And... would that be considered art???
[ducking and running]

Quote - They don't DEMAND that their paintings be allowed to hang in the Louvre, or be sold at Southeby's.

Based upon some of the stuff that I've seen being claimed as 'high art' - I'll take another velvet Elvis poster.  And I'm not even an Elvis fan.

BTW - Van Gogh's stuff was considered to be pretty much just so much bird-cage liner back in his own day.  That is, back when he was alive -- and when the millions that his paintings later came to sell for could have actually done him some good.

Who knows?  Perhaps a plastic-looking Posette render complete with plastic-looking "helmet hair" will sell for a couple of hundred million astrocredits in 2125........electronic transfer, of course.

Quote - [

BTW - Van Gogh's stuff was considered to be pretty much just so much bird-cage liner back in his own day.  That is, back when he was alive -- and when the millions that his paintings later came to sell for could have actually done him some good.

Who knows?  Perhaps a plastic-looking Posette render complete with plastic-looking "helmet hair" will sell for a couple of hundred million astrocredits in 2125........electronic transfer, of course.

somehow i doubt it lol

if only i could paint birdcage liner like vincent.......

billy

Attached Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment

((Although there are reports -- and I believe that there are also some official birth/death records from the time -- of an Englishman who lived in the sixteenth century to be 207.))

Her father ran an art supply shop in Paris during the 1800's.  She was 14 years old at the time that Van Gogh used to trade with her father.  Van Gogh never had any money, so he always paid for his art supplies by trading paintings, sketches, etc. to her dad.

According to this elderly French woman, Van Gogh was "dirty, badly dressed and disagreeable."  Sounds like Van Gogh would have made an excellent forumite.

Attached Link: http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/tech/medicine/AnomaliesandCuriositiesofMedicine/chap8.html

I just quickly perused the link, but I sincerely (as in skeptical, scientific backing) doubt that any human has ever lived more than 120-something years.  To make it to 100 is 1 in a million.  To make it to 110 is 1 is 500 million.  To make it to 120 is 1 in a billion (or so).  200+ is 1 in several trillion (chance more than all humans - homo sapiens sapiens - that have ever existed and will exist for the next several centuries).  Such longetivity has never been recorded scientifically in all history (only in fairy tales and myths - see Bible).

Why?  It has nothing to do with eating yogurt religiously or being religiously yogurted.  In every cell is a genome based on DNA which has a little timer (Teleromase).  As cells die and reproduce, the number of these decrease.  When these are exhausted, the cells no longer reproduce.  If there is a possible 'fountain of youth', it is directly linked to that.  This doesn't take into account other internal/external factors, but it is a rather hard wall on human longetivity.

I'll believe that someone can live to 122, but not to 207! ;)

This is a really bizarre tangent that's veered way off the original point, but I don't like to see misinformation spread. I live in a pretty sparsely populated part of soutthern Oregon - the entire county I live in has less than 200,000 people - & I personally know 5 people over 100 who live here (ok, two actually died within the last month, at 103 & 105). There are quite a few assisted living homes for the elderly here, so I'm sure there are many more as well. Don't know where that 1 in a million statistic comes from - it may be skewed due to the effects of such factors as war, disease & poverty - but living to 100 is definitely not that rare...

And I just got through reading a letter by a woman in her 90s, whose two living sisters are also in their 90s.

Here is a scientific fact that you cannot deny: people today are older than they were many years ago.

Yes, that is supposed to be funny ;p

Quote - "If you browse the Maya or Max galleries most of the images are WIP´s or single objects.  I´d rather see another image of Vicky in a temple then another image of a wineglass on a wooden table, no matter how long it took to model it!"

I've made jokes about this very thing before and Vestmann is absolutely right. You are no more of an artist if you render a mirrored ball in Maya than if you rendered it in Poser. The flood of 'boring' nude Poser pics is just a result of Poser being more affordable and thus, more people able to acquire it and make their own art. The DAZ Studio galleries here are a good example of this. There's a lot of beginner and first-time 3D user art there because a lot of DAZ Studio users ARE beginners - it's free software and new users aren't going to immediately create the same works that long-time Poser users are.

If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.

SnowS

Here's the Max equivalent of a NVIAT 

I bring you...

STOAT
Shiny Teapot On A Tablecloth

And I did it ALL by myself!

(Well I did select the Teapot Primitive all by myself, and I did tweak the texture on the plane to tile and I DID make the lid a little larger because the default doesn't really fit and I DID create a spotlight all by myself, and... isn't it just ARTSY ;o) )

Ok, I'm first:

-A poor poser freak in New-York
-Was burnt for posing his work

• He started out crying,
  -And said they were lying
  -'bout his artpiece with Posette and Dork

Boooo-HAH!!!! Nice overhand volley, TG! Y'know what the problem is here? Obsessing over title terminology and ego. Comparing websites like Rosity, CGS, Deviantart, and so on to actual museums in....shall we say....signs of hyperinflated ego? Three distinct things are being mixed up in this; craft and title and talent. I'm a writer; not an author. Why? Because I haven't sold a work for $$$. This makes me a second class citizen, despite the fact that there are published 'authors' I can write rings of prose around with 10 broken fingers and a crayon superglued to my nose. But that second class status only applies if I accept the idea that working a system to get published somehow magically grants craft skills. It doesn't from my experience, and it also tends to destroy whatever chance the victim had to improve if they do not have their head on straight and pulled out of their ass.After all, they have 'arrived'. They got the gold ring. They 'matter'. And all too many of them fossilize at that point. And suddenly find their shining reputation is that of a hack....because book 9 is obviously the exact same formula as book 8...7....6...etc. Craft has nothing whatsoever to do with title. Pure and simple, it is a matter of knowing your tools, what they can do, and what extra things you can make them do by knowing what the gray areas of their useage is. Poser in no more or no less a tool than any other CG application. Oh, by comparison its a pocketknife to the big boys swiss army knife, but that doesn't change the fact that it still can cut. How a tool is used is what determines its usefulness. The all-in-wonder tools have their uses....but they also have their liabilities. A little bit of everything can lead to a lot of nothing due to conflicts and overcomplicated methodology. A lot of Poser users have a lot of craft to learn yet, if they choose; that's a no-brainer. But with only a few exceptions, the resources that apply are either simply not there, masked in obscure terminology, or guarded from the barbarian heathens by the true believers. Which brings us to talent. The great intangible that no amount of schooling, no amount of plugins, no amount of $$$$$$$$ spent on content/application/whatever can provide. But here's the catch; no one has full blown talent. No one. Talent is like a tree; no matter =what=, you always start as a little nut in the dirt. I tripped over my writing talent quite by accident in high school. My worst subject was always engligh...mainly because it was always grammar, and for most real world situations, knowing how to split a participle just isn't all that important. But senior year, we were given a class long creative assignment; the old list of unrelated words to somehow work into something. A speech, short story, whatever. And the nut sprouted from the providing of a little bit of water and sunlight. But that tree of talent will only grow so long as it is given nourishment to grow...and faced with the storms of challenge to give it a reason to grow. Using the camera/photographer analogy: Whether you are an artist or a shutterbug pretty much depends on which clique you are with at the moment....and if your ego is halfway sane, irrelevant. Cliques by their nature are bigoted entities. Craft is learneable. It may be hard to juggle all the possible settings if all you ever used was granpas old Brownie, but it can be done if you put your mind to it. Talent the intangible. Yes, a chimp may be able to push that button, but it would be a random event. Talent is what makes a human able to wait, and watch, until something deep inside says 'now', before they push that same button. Directed vs Random. That is the difference.

MAXUser 234 - OMG, Trekkiegrrl, is that Subsurface particle Scattering?  That is amazing, absolutely incredible, i'm putting it in my favs! 

3DMan - I like the lighting.

ModelMAstrr - Can you post a tutorial on how you got that lid to fit, I have had no luck!

MAYAlvrrr - This is the most pornographic Naked Teapot on a Tablecloth (NTOAT) I have ver seen, I'm reporting you to the Mods!

(Sorry, couldn't resist... I'm getting bored of this topic... lol)