I am going over the pictures that were posted for the holiday contest
and I have something that really bugs me, in the contest rules it says that only original artwork can be submitted and nothing that was previously made so how come so many members post images with poser work? Dont tell me that there is no different cause they did not made this figures they were made by somebody else and they post it as their own.

In my opinion if the rules says to put an original artwork then it means original from A to Z and nothing pre made. The next thing that will happen is that in the 2D section there will be images with pictures from imagebank.com.

Unfortunately for me I cannot submit anything to this contest since I am up to my neck in a very big project, but I dont know what is the point in joining a contest like this when so many participants use pre made figures.

of course I am not saying that everyone do it, I just say that there are a lot of users that post this kind of images and need to show a bit more skill then arranging already made objects and rendering them.

Tell me what you think about it.

I'm not sure where you draw that line... should they have written the software, too? If they painted an image instead, should they have ground their own pigments and woven their own canvas? A sketch artist can't create the apples in his still life, they have to be grown by the tree. 

The poser artist may not make the model, but they do the arrangement, the lightining, select the rendering settings, commonly do their own materials, and so forth. It's usual also to modify the rendered image to perfect it with a paint program, too. My opinion would be to call the result "original work".

Than put it in the photography section cause its just the same
I dont see any reason to compare between a guy who actually modeled Santa (for example) and set his clothes (of coarse he modeled them as well) and set the hair and texture and every little bit in the model, and on the other hand there is a guy who paid 18 bucks and downloaded Santa from his favorite site including the clothes and hair and they will even give him a special price on the carriage and his deers.

I want you to understand, I have nothing against Poser, I think its a great software for what its suppose to do and I saw some really amazing work that was done with poser, but what I am saying is that you cant compare between a guy who did every little bit in the picture and a guy who did some lightning and render settings.
You see, lightning and render settings can take 30 minutes to complete but a good old scene that was entirely done by someone can take even 30 days.   

I didn't think you were putting down Poser, I just wanted to point out that there are all kinds of levels to the question. I think another way to look at it might be to say, "Is the work copyrightable?" In this case, the work (arrangement of pixels, if you will) is copyrightable as original work, even though the models are purchased.

I don't know if you use Poser or not, but I can assure that it takes more than 30 minutes to create a good image, even before you do the post work to it. I don't know what's typical, but I recall that my rather modest entry into the Halloween contest took about fifteen hours of work, not counting the rendering time when I went off to do other things. My image was a mix of pre-made figures and items I modeled myself, pre-made morphs and some I created myself with magnets, pre-made textures and some I painted myself, and my own lighting arrangements, as well as a certain amount of hand painting afterward.

Like I said, it's awfully hard to draw that line. 

I'm sure the question as to whether the models were premade vs homemade is one that the judges consider when rating each entry, regardless.  If you'll look at last year's winners in the 3d category, the first one with -any- easily recognizable premade Poser figures is the 4th runner up. 

I would guess that amongst the factors of how well made a scene is, how apropos for a holiday card, how creative or humorous it is, that they also look at the effort put into it.  I know that if I see a scene that shows a complex and thought-provoking theme subtly hinted at by the careful configuration of store-bought Poser figures, I would rate it higher in my own personal esteem than a simpler cute card made from scratch.  It's all about how they use the tools they have, not which ones they use.

Hey guys on somewhat related note - is there a place for discussion and feedback on holidays contest anywhere?

Funny to see this still going on. I stumbled upon this site by accident tonight. Last time I was here was about 5 years ago. Why did I leave? Because I thought that this site should have changed their name from Renderosity to Poserosity. I saw in contest after contest SOOO many entries that were simply bought poser figures and clothes and objects placed in a scene, rendered, adn submitted. Being a more photoshop oriented artist I was creating pretty much 100% of what you saw in my work in Photoshop. I created 3D effects with plugins, and shading, etc. And no, it's not the same. Creating a 3d illusion in Photoshop from scratch vs downloading a 3d object and placing a light source on the stage and hitting the render button are about like comparing Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" with a Photograph of those original sunflowers. You can do really nice original work in Renderosity even with downloaded objects, clothes, etc., but that almost never happens from what I see in many of the contests. I can't quantify how to judge it, but to paraphrase "I can't tell you what makes Poser-based art original, but I know it when I see it" and really, it's not that hard at all to tell which final images are the result of download some stuff, add lighting and render vs real, genuine artistic work (or at least an attempt at it). Funny, it's been 5 years, and it doesn't look like much has changed. See you again in another 5... Brain21

I've been a member here for a while, but never really wandered through the forums. This topic caught my eye, as I have been creating Poser images for about a year now.

I'm wondering if the two people who are putting down a form of art realize just how much time goes into creating an image from Poser "pre-mades". Yes, my creations are made from pre-made characters, hair, clothing, ect. Time spent on average for a good quailty piece: about 20 hours...and that's before I do any postwork in a 2D graphics program, which I generally do. Just because it seems simple, doesn't mean it is.

If you want to dismiss "putting products together and rendering them" as a form of art, then you should think about dismissing all forms of art. Where would you be without your Photoshop? Where would a traditional artist be without their mediums (pencil, paper, paint, ect.)? Some have a talent to create, others a talent to manipulate and change. Regardless, it's all art in the end.

I dont think you understand what I am saying and that is because you are all poser users and you think that poser is a relevant app and I also belive that poser is a relevant app but it will never be the same as doing everything by yourself, you say that it takes 20 hours to make a good quility image, do you know how much time it takes to model one man with cloths and hair and textures (the same quality as poser figure)? more than a few days and I didnt even count rigging an posing. But you guys never did it so you dont know and you never tried so you think that its the same so its not. My stupid boss is using poser and he tried to make me use poser as 3d app and it was the worst experiance I had with any 3d app so I know a bit poser and how bad this app can be. I have to say that it pisses me off that people think that its just the same, just give it a try and make the same image you made in a real 3d app like maya or max and than tell me if its the same. I thought maybe I can put some sense in some people here but I see I cant. Just one last thing, this is like the differance between a really good italian dinner and microwave spagetti, eventually you will have in both pasta but it will never have the same taste.

Apparently some people will never understand that art is art, regardless of the tools used. Like someone above said...it's all in how you use the tools you have, not what tools you have. Some of us can't afford higher-end modeling programs. And even if we all had the same tools, doesn't mean we all have the same proficiency and talent. Not all painters can draw with a pencil...and not all Poser users can model their own models. We all have different talents. Why is that so bad? Yes, there's a difference in using Poser than in modeling your own figure. Can everybody model their own figure? Should those who don't be looked down upon because either a) they lack the tools or b) they lack the talent...or both? That's like saying sketch artists shouldn't be allowed to display their art because painting takes more time. It's ridiculous to try to draw a line when it comes to artistic freedom. Whether you like it or not, Poser created images are original art, no matter how much or how little time is spent creating them.

Besides, I don't hear those who are making money off their models complaining about people using their creations to make their own original images....do you? If everyone felt like you, then models wouldn't sell (or creators wouldn't sell their models), and the market would die. Instead, it's the complete opposite, the market continues to grow. Which means most modelers enjoy sharing their creations so others can use them, regardless of the amount of work went into creating them. And those of us who use those models do understand how much time it takes and we are generally grateful to the modelers for their generosity. It's too bad some people can't see the good both sides bring to the art community and have to try to rain on the parade.

SO dont try to win prizes by using other people work!!! That was my complaint I havent got any problem againts Poser users I just say that its againts the contests rules to use pre made objects and figures and this is what you are doing. SO if the rules say that you need to make an original work from a to z than doing only half the job is not the same. In my opinion this is the end of this thread cause you will never understand what I am saying. p.s. You say that you cannot afford a high end 3d app? Have you ever heard of Blender? its open source and its free so give it a try.

Obviously it's not against the rules to make original art using pre-made models...or none of the Poser images would have been allowed. I think you're taking your complaint to the wrong people. If the contest stated "no Poser art using pre-made models", then you'd have something to complain about. Simply stated, the contests are open for every type of 3D creation...whether modeled completely by the entrant or not. If you don't like it, don't enter, simple as that.

Besides...it's not technically considered other people's work when I change it to be original to my ideas. That is why pre-mades are allowed to be used in entries. The entries are original art, as they are original ideas by that artist. Get a grip...if it bothers you so much, don't enter the contest.

P.S. - Maybe I'll give Blender a try...but remember, I may not have the same talent as you, in which I can successfully make my own models. You act as if we all can do the same things if we just "give it a try". I'd like to point out...again...that a painter that is excellent at that form of art may be terrible at another form of art. We are not all the same with the same talents...and I see that as a good thing.

Here's an idea...
Instead of complaining to Poser users, who are going to disagree with you for obvious reasons, take your issue to the contest managers. Maybe you could request a contest that only accepts originally modeled creations.
What you're doing here is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Instead of complaining about having contests that accept all forms of 3D art, and having those contests thrown out just because most of the entries use pre-made models, think beyond that into requesting some of the contests be for modelers only. That way everyone wins.

And you should also keep in mind that many Poser users do it as a hobby...and just don't have the extra time to model their own models. They shouldn't be kicked out of the art community (including contests) just because they have time contraints (ie: job and family)...or don't have the tools, or don't have the talent.

Perhaps we also need a contest for programmers who write their own 3D software. After all, if you didn't write the code, surely it can't be real art? I mean, obviously, if you're just using your mouse to push around vertices using someone else program...

It really is hard to draw the line. And, I'm not sure it's right to say that one piece of art is more valuable than another, based on how hard it was to make. For example, Pierre-Auguste Renoir made what many people consider to be quite fine art. Unlike many artists before him, he did not commonly grind his own pigments. Should his art be considered of lesser stature because he didn't work as hard as, say, Thomas Gainsborough? It seemes to me that, by the argument presented here, it would.

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that using Poser with pre-made models is the same as making the models from scratch. I have heard the opposite, however; many Poser artists have great admiration for the effort that modelers put into their works, and are quite appreciative of the efforts. The fact that a particular contest is open to users of any media doesn't imply otherwise, in my opinion.

It is funny how this superior arguement creeps into so many forms of art.  I rember back in my younger days of an argument between still life / posed scene photographers vs. unposed real world photographers.  The real world ones would say that anybody can set up a good scene to take a great looking picture picture.  It takes talent to get just the right shot when pictures are not planned.

Same thing here.  I guess some people just need to put other art down to feel better and to justify their own abilities. (shrugs)

The real funny thing about this situation is that in most movie cgi FX scenes or games, the ones who models and textures the characters/items are NOT the ones who are animating and setting up the scenes.  You have modelers who create the models. You texture artists who design all the textures for the models.  You have animators that bring these models to life and you have directors who put everything together in how it looks. (yes I left out a whole slew of other people like lighting specialists and motion capture people etc and yes some people do multiple jobs)  Basically, when you look in the movie / game biz, poser artists would be the directors or director/animator(if it is an animation).  Or in the photography world, it would be the still life photographer. :)

So since this is not just a modeling website, but rather a site that covers all sides of the art, it is not such a bad thing when you look at it like that. :)

Just because a poser image is entered, doesn't exactly mean it will win.

That is the simplest way to state it.   And, in the same token, just because someone modeled their own figures, does not mean their image will be asthetically pleasing.

Now I agree, making your own figures, rigging them, and finishing them into an image is more time consuming and work evolving than say, using a standard poser figure, because simply put, poser users are "missing a step".  Its that step I think, that has you angry, and it shows.

Though you are entitled to your opinion, and that opinion should be respected, it does come off more like you are spitting in poser users faces as not being "elite enough", or that somehow, we are lazy, or incapable.

We are not, considering, it is apparent by many works of art where poser is used, how collossal this program can be.

Trying to persuede Poser users, somehow, that they shouldn't like or feel unworthy because of the medium they use, is as pointless as trying to persuede someone who likes white wine that they should like red........ because you said so.

If you feel that strongly in your opinion, I agree you should contact the contest administrators.  This is where best you can assert yourself, and not belittling those that worked extremely hard in the medium they know to create something........ including hope to win, for a contest that their images were accepted in.

Everyone can try, but only the judges decide who wins.

I think it boils down to people do what they can do (no matter what program they use - I can make hair textures , texture clothing and make characters but I can't model any of them. But if I was to enter it would be using as much as my own stuff as I can do - that is for personal satisfaction  and because I can. In the end it is the final image that is judged not how long it took to create the image or what work you put into it but how it looks 
just my opinion :o) and at 2.30 am it may not make much sense to anyone lol

night all and try to
keep smiling
Chris :o) 

Coming to a forum like this and complaining that Poser users aren't "real artists", or their work isn't "real art" is a lot like going to an NRA meeting to argue for a ban on all firearms.  It's absurd and inflamatory, not to mention entirely unproductive.

Further, many of the artists who purchase and use Poser and various premodeled items are hobbyists.  Most of those people have jobs outside what they do with their artwork, and enjoy having not only materials that facilitate their artistic expression, but a venue in which to publish, discuss, and share their visions.  Sure, we won't likely be competing with the likes of Waterhouse or Degas for wall space in the Tate or the Louvre, but the value of art lies in what it means to the creator and consumer of it.  For people without the resources (which includes time as well as money and training) to model their own components, Poser is a valuable facilitator for expression of an artistic idea.  

If people who are either professional 3D modellers, or hobbyists who enjoy making their own models from scratch don't want to use (or even approve of using) Poser or premade products in their art, that's great for them!  

Who do you think you are to judge anyone else for expressing themselves with whatever materials are available to them?  What you are doing here is as small minded as suggesting that someone who cooks with herbs and vegetables they didn't grow and process themselves isn't making real food.  People who judge art by monetary value, or technical ability alone clearly do not understand even a fraction of what "art" is.  Instead of trying to make yourself feel more important by criticizing other artists, why don't you go model yourself a person who cares to listen to your whiny opinion?

I want to remind everyone to refrain from personal attacks.

That said, first let's clarify that the general community contests are open to all software products. We consider the final render of the image to be the original work created by the artist. Artists may use premade models, clothes, textures, etc. to create their entries (unless otherwise specified).

There are some challenges and contests specific to a software product and/or to modelling. In those contests the artists must create an original model.

We are a diverse art community. As such we need to respect all the different ways that art can be created and expressed. We have contests and challenges that are designed to meet the different types of artists.

If there is a specific kind of contest, or theme that you would like to see, please contact the Contest Manager, cartesius.

Best regards,
Lillian

I did say that you CAN do original stuff in poser, even with downloaded figures, but in many of the contests that I see, there is a large portion that doesn't go through that effort. I wasn't dismissing an art form at all. AND it's a false assumption, or logical leap, to say that if you dismiss one form of art you should dismiss them all. If I think Kenny G is crap, that doesn't mean that I them must believe that ALL music is crap. :-) Here, I'll put it in perspective in a photoshop context: Imagine someone downloads a photograph of a face and opens it up in photoshop. They then "select all" and simply apply an art brush filter to the image, and then say "see? Now it's art" It's not Another (poorer) analogy - it's kinda like comparing a cover band to an original. I don't care how well you can play Purple Haze, you are not nearly as creative and the guy that wrote it (or I should say in the very least you are not being creative in that example). Do you see what I am getting at now? Brain21

Quote - I've been a member here for a while, but never really wandered through the forums. This topic caught my eye, as I have been creating Poser images for about a year now.

I'm wondering if the two people who are putting down a form of art realize just how much time goes into creating an image from Poser "pre-mades". Yes, my creations are made from pre-made characters, hair, clothing, ect. Time spent on average for a good quailty piece: about 20 hours...and that's before I do any postwork in a 2D graphics program, which I generally do. Just because it seems simple, doesn't mean it is.

If you want to dismiss "putting products together and rendering them" as a form of art, then you should think about dismissing all forms of art. Where would you be without your Photoshop? Where would a traditional artist be without their mediums (pencil, paper, paint, ect.)? Some have a talent to create, others a talent to manipulate and change. Regardless, it's all art in the end.

Good and bad points. It is HOW you use your tools, not what tools you are using. People who don't model should NOT be looked down upon. MY complaint here, as I previously stated, is that the site is SOO poser-centric, that even crap poser stuff thrown together "wins" over well done stuff in other programs (not just photoshop). I have seen some stuff here done with poser that was absolutely beautiful and fantastic, and most definitely art, but it's almost like the ONLY qualification in many cases is your tools (Poser in this case), and not necessarily it's artistic merit. Sometimes you look at some contests and you think "Jeez. Bert Monroy could create some work of art entirely by scratch and lose to this guy that has been using poser for like a week and obviously rendered the figure & background seperatly because the objects all have light sources in different directions." It gets frustrating for the contestands, and bewilders those browsing through and looking at the contest archives. I have seen where some creates something truly artistic and original in PS, or illustrator, painter, etc. and it "loses" to some thrown together and sloppily created poser "art" simply by virtue of the fact that it was poser art. Your bad point? Poser created images ARE art. No, they are not inherently. As YOU stated, it's not the tools, but what yopu do with them. Poser created images CAN BE art, but just cause it was made in poser doesn't mean it's art. Like Stevie Wonder said: "Just because a record has a groove don't mean it's in the groove!"

Quote - Apparently some people will never understand that art is art, regardless of the tools used. Like someone above said...it's all in how you use the tools you have, not what tools you have. everybody model their own figure? Should those who don't be looked down upon because either a) they lack the tools or b) they lack the talent...or both? That's like saying sketch artists shouldn't be allowed to display their art because painting takes or not, Poser created images are original art, no matter how much or how little time is spent creating them.

Quote - Being a more photoshop oriented artist I was creating pretty much 100% of what you saw in my work in Photoshop. I created 3D effects with plugins, and shading, etc. And no, it's not the same. Creating a 3d illusion in Photoshop from scratch vs downloading a 3d object and placing a light source on the stage and hitting the render button are about like comparing Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" with a Photograph of those original sunflowers.

If you are using plug-ins or any other type of "Effects" its not 100% from scratch and on the same level we poser users do. Plug in Effects are made by someone else besides you,so are the Effects but you are using what the program gives you or buying Effects or plug-ins. What we poser users do and you do are use the program to make our art. Each is its own type of art and are 100% different from each other. Just like oil painters will say what you photoshop users make isn't art,or pencil artist will say that photography isn't Art. Each use their medium to produce Art.

I would say that IMO our medium is very close to photography,Photoshop IMO is like digital manipulation.Each capable of producing museum quality Art

Hi, Poser users, I dont think you understand what I ment when I started this thread and luckily for me brain21 is my only suporter here. I never said that poser is not art and poser is not a legitinic tool but you cannot put it side by side with the all made 3d because it is not the same. Of corse its art just like photography and 2d are art but both are not 3d art, I know that poser is also 3d program but its like comparing photography and 2d painting, they are both 2d but they will never be the same and this is the reason why in the last contest they divided to specific sections like 3d and 2d and photography and this was my first complaint that was blown to the question if poser is a good tool or not so I think that poser and all kind of tools like poser should be in a differnt section. Just one last example to explain my point, currently I cannot make a figure with the ditails of the figurs that comes with poser so do you realy think that its fair to compare betwen my model that is medium+ quality and a top level poser model that was bought online?

What you quoted I was refering to okfir as he/she gives the impression that ALL Poser created images are not art, and that none should be entered into contests. THAT is what I disagree with. Poser images can be very beautiful art when the time is spent on them. I completely agree with you that crappy-thrown-together Poser images are not art and shouldn't win just by virtue of being Poser created. Having just witnessed this very thing, I myself am a bit peeved, so I completely understand where you are coming from.

Quote - Good and bad points. It is HOW you use your tools, not what tools you are using. People who don't model should NOT be looked down upon. MY complaint here, as I previously stated, is that the site is SOO poser-centric, that even crap poser stuff thrown together "wins" over well done stuff in other programs (not just photoshop). I have seen some stuff here done with poser that was absolutely beautiful and fantastic, and most definitely art, but it's almost like the ONLY qualification in many cases is your tools (Poser in this case), and not necessarily it's artistic merit. Sometimes you look at some contests and you think "Jeez. Bert Monroy could create some work of art entirely by scratch and lose to this guy that has been using poser for like a week and obviously rendered the figure & background seperatly because the objects all have light sources in different directions." It gets frustrating for the contestands, and bewilders those browsing through and looking at the contest archives. I have seen where some creates something truly artistic and original in PS, or illustrator, painter, etc. and it "loses" to some thrown together and sloppily created poser "art" simply by virtue of the fact that it was poser art. Your bad point? Poser created images ARE art. No, they are not inherently. As YOU stated, it's not the tools, but what yopu do with them. Poser created images CAN BE art, but just cause it was made in poser doesn't mean it's art. Like Stevie Wonder said: "Just because a record has a groove don't mean it's in the groove!"

RavynGyrl, I dont think you understood me completely Please read my last post.

okfir, i was replying to brain21. I did read your last post. However, I have also read your other posts where you stated Poser art should not be entered in contests because it was not "original" from A to Z. Are you now revising your original statements?

Quote - RavynGyrl, I dont think you understood me completely Please read my last post.

Quote - If you are using plug-ins or any other type of "Effects" its not 100% from scratch and on the same level we poser users do.

??? Are you serious here? Using a plugin to say make a surface glassy, or to bend something in a way that PS can't natively do, etc. is NOT the same. What I am doing by using plugins would be akin to rendering lighting on a poser figure, or adjusting the hue of a downloaded jacket for a poser figure. The plugin is not the feature or focus of the artwork. It is used subtly to help express the art w/o distracting from it. Having said that, once in a while a filter can be the artwork, but that is rare (think Warhol's Campbells Tomato soup cans in a grid with a different color scheme or curve applied to each as an example) Throwing a figure and some clothes onto a scene could be compared to say, starting with a photo that someone else took, and running a filter or two on it and presenting that as art. As I believe I stated earlier, that is NOT art, and that is NOT what I'm doing. There is a big difference here, and it is false to equate using a a filter or plugin with using pre-created figures and clothes. It can be similar for someone that has only used PS for a week, but they aren't submitting abd posting here, and if they are, I bet they are getting very few votes. The point here is that if there is a basic level of pure amateurism and uncreative artwork done in photoshop and presented here, it would be dismissed in 2secs. Present the same level of "artistry" (or lack thereof) and skill in a Poser creation, and it could actually win!!!> Quote - Plug in Effects are made by someone else besides you,so are the Effects but you are using what the program gives you or buying Effects or plug-ins. What we poser users do and you do are use the program to make our art.

A plugin, in most cases, is very different in effect than using something recreated in poser. You are comparing apples to watermelons here. Using a lot of the plugins & filters in Photoshop (at least skillfully) is more like a painter using different size and types of brushes to get diferent textures. Again someone using poser who downloads someone elses figure would equate to someone using someone else's photograph in PS. The problem here is that a lot of the poser arts work that I have seen in the past, doesn't do much more than that. Download a figure, throw some downloaded clothes, set up some lighting (or maybe not) and hit the render button. Viola, instant art! NOT! BUt it can still win. Someone else downloads a photo of bill gates and uses a filter to swirl the picture and then presents that as art will get no votes, ignored, or flamed. We are saying that there is a bit of a double-standard here, and a bit of the "It's made in poser, so it MUST be art" attitude (not in everyone, just a few).> Quote - what you photoshop users make isn't art,or pencil artist will say that photography isn't Art. Each use their medium to produce Art.

I think that most real artists, regardless of skill, would actually recognize the artistic merit of each of the genres, and check their 'superior attitude' at the door. Of course this is not always the case, but it is a lot of the time, and you can't really generalize by saying that x type of artists will say that b type of artist is crap. > Quote - I would say that IMO our medium is very close to photography,Photoshop IMO is like digital manipulation.Each capable of producing museum quality Art

I totally disagree here, not necessarily in a bad way... a LOT of what I would see from poser "artists" is more akin to department store display window stuff. The really nice poser stuff I see here I would liken more to actually painting than photography. If I create something very artistic in photoshop and enter it into a contest and I get beaten by some really artistic poser stuff (and I have), all props go to the poser artist. There are some that produce simply incredible, amazing stuff. But if I lose to someone that has created something with less skill and creativity than a window display designer, it does irk me. Photoshop can be digital manipulation (if you think about it, it's all digital manipulation), but it can be so much more than that too. Next time you go to the book store look at some of the Photoshop Artistry books, or some of Bert Monroy's books. Simply calling it digital manipulation is oversimplifying it and not doing it any justice.

     The thing about using a program like poser is that unlike making a painting or sculpture or drawing of a person requires no knowledge of anatomy or form. This is where the rubber meets the road. Most of the better 3D artists who make their own objects and figures etc. Can also draw well you have to know shape and form to be able to do both.
 
      Those who talk about how long it takes to make a poser pic try modeling a figure from scratch rigging and texturing it. Once you get to the point wher eit is liek poser over 90% of th ework has been done for you.

    The big rub is that those peopel who do put the time and effort into making all their own items and figures often go unoticed here. The get the short end of th estick because they are nto using poser peopel here will not even look to see what it is and have little of no appreciation for the effort it takes. Good thing this is not the only site on the net or else it would be very depressing.

     Poser is useful as a timesaver. Or to add a human element to an otherwise unpopulated scene but here is is the focus of the entire piece. If you make a city street for example you might be better at architectureal drawings it looks a bit empty just a street so you put a poser figure or two in there to make it look lived in. Anyways enough of this rant.

andy warhole went into a novelty store, saw a stuffed animal he liked, wrote his name on the label, thus making it his work of art ,and sold it for  thousands. several artists commission artisans to create their masterpieces and make it their own sell it for thousands on their name; and the works go as their originals. i think any poser artist is ten times as creative as any of these. even if we are doing realistic art we are still living in the world of modern art. i say wake up and smell the coffee. for years now commercial artists making book covers, magazine covers, and cartoons have been using techniques (yes i mean people like norman rockwell) that have been bordering on digital artwork for years even before we had computers yet they have been worshipped by a public that didn't have a clue as to how these artisits created their work. the whole idea of poser was to create software that would give the average starving artist the where with all to compete with established artists who had  staffs of models, photographers, an expensive wardrobe with real clothes to create their original works of art that were based on a myriad of poses and colr schemes that their models, directors, and photographers created for them to work from. ofcourse the average joe who could afford paints and a canvas could still do still lifes or a portrait of his girlfriend (which was usually from her highschool yearbook photo because she got tired of sitting for the real thing.) thank u poser for putting art back in the handfs of the talented. i see a lot of people doing pictures with poser who don't have talent and their work is awful; and then i see creative minds that can't model a cube come up with great beauty and i say their the artist and it should and does belong to them.

it is very interesting to see where this topic gone since I started it almost 4 months ago and it was just a complaint about the amount of bad poser pictures in the holyday contest and it was never intended to be about the question "Poser, yes or no?" if you have fun with it than enjoy yourself. I have a story about my recent experience with Poser, two weeks ago we got at work a project about sumo wrestlers and my creative manager decided to use a poser figure that he bought for about 18 bucks even though I told him that I can model a very good model of my own in cinema4d he insisted that we use the poser figure (in my opinion he is an idiot that dont know a thing about 3d) so eventually after a lot of arguments I decided to let go and try to do it in poser and now after I tried it for animation I have to say that it is probably the worst animation software I have ever seen (and I have seen a lot) and eventually we used interposer in cinema4d but still its also a dificult way to animate. Maybe some of you may say that poser is not animation software and it is not intended for complex animation and this is what I think, so if you think so please call the stupid creative manager and tell him about it cause he doesnt listen to me and he wants to continue the work with poser.

       One of the big misconceptions about 3D art is that you need the expensive big bucks software to accomplish anything. This is far from the truth.  Personally I make my characters with Wings which is free and I know a number of top pros use this software also. If you want to rig and animate and do it better than poser you can get Blender or messiah. The thing about a figure made from scratch is that there is a bit of the personality and character of the artist that you get to see with it.

       Anyone can get a freind to pose for a few stills and then make a painting or drawing. If you have a camera. You don't need a complete studio and a hasselblad camera to take pictures. I have made faces from referances downloaded from the net.    
  
     I know of a fe wof the cheater old school techniques. 1 which a saw my parents do from time to time was a basic primitive form of rotoscoping. They used a slide projector and projected it on a canvas and then traced the picture. Ther eare a few other ones.

     The problem with poser with very few exceptions is tha tit always looks like poser. Not like something unique that the artist made themselves it looks like poser figure 1 2 or 3. If you take tiem and look at characters that are unique and made by peopel for a picture you will see the difference. Some are terrible some have a quality that is hard to describe but they have more life to them even though they are not done to the same extent of a poser figure.

  Okfir sorry to hear about what heppened there. I think most of the poser figures I have seen are nto very animation freindly. Poser I find too has weak lighting models in it also. Most of the better poser art uses a ton of postwork to cover that. I know in C4D you have GI and SSS to get the image looking a bit better. Good luck a cartoon Sumo Wrestler might be a fun thing to make though.

   It is a giant misconception among the poser community that you need the big expensive software packages to be able to make a figure on your own. Personally I use wings for modeling which is free.  I use PMG Messiah for rendering rigging and animation 299$. I use a very old version of photoshop that came with a graphics tablet back in 2001. Still use Bryce 5 for backgrounds and reflection maps which you can get for free now.

In the end if you are having fun then keep at it. But I think many think themselves too good to learn modeling or how to draw or other time consuming tasks that are involved in art. Many  poser artists spend a lot of time wrapped up in poser world there and refuse to come out and look at the rest or even try to do go beyond that software.