Just looked at that image as well Ladonna.  I do think the first commenter who said she needed a sword was  rude - his point makes no sense at all to me.  Additionally the other one who said you should call her something else - I mean this is a mythological being, if you want to imagine zeus with boobs and 80s hair you can.

I think Cobaltdream gave a very professional critique however - and his didn't come off as rude at all. 

You bring up use of color too though, and I have to disagree on that.  I think that a critique should definately include use of color if it is appropriate.    See the movie Curse of the Golden Flower for utterly spectacular use of color through out and you see my point.  I despise movies like that, yet that color kept me staring in awe.

Rutra> Quote - Or maybe a new option should be created on Rendo: "Only non-critical comments welcomed".

Well, I think that ought to be the default. You should have to change that option to "critical and non-critical comments welcome." This small change and some common sense would render this club redundant. > Quote - Regarding the obligation to post a comment: if i'm ever obliged to post comments, than i'm out of this group.

I'm not sure anyone has stood up in favor of obligation. In fact I am trying to alert the group that the unwelcome sense of obligation may be enhanced by the current ebot system, where people see an inbox that is both a reminder of the hundreds of deserving images they haven't commented on, and an opportunity to start counting and conceiving imbalances in participation. This may be silly or unreasonable in your opinion, but I think it is a real psychological effect, which can be minimized by a change in method. The fact is, good people are leaving. To me, this is not a good thing. If you think this means I take it too seriously, so be it. I too wanted it to be fun and productive and am hoping common sense will prevail before it all goes away.

jjroland quote: "I mean this is a mythological being, if you want to imagine zeus with boobs and 80s hair you can."

Sure! We are in a free world and the artist must have a free mind. But you must accept that who ever writes a critique is also free to write his opinion that he feels that Zeus with boobs is ridiculous. Both the artist and the viewer are free. The artist is, of course, also free to agree with the critique or not.

People in Rendo are generally very open minded. After all, we do see lots of images of people flying, fairies, angels, strange worlds, etc. But if someone makes a cube and calls it a fairy, the viewer is allowed to say, at least, that it should have wings... Or suggest that the artist should call it a cube instead of calling it a fairy. That's an opinion and we are free to express it.

Because, jjroland, as you know, it was me who wrote that comment to Ladonna about calling it something else. You probably forgot to complete the quote of what i wrote, which was:
"I like the picture, in general. But maybe it would help if you would not call her "Nike", as many of us have in our minds a very different idea of the goddess. "

A quote inside the context is always nicer... :-)

You guys know you can turn notifications off for favourites, right? Just hit the relevant link on your "my favourites" page. You now have control over when to visit someone's gallery. That's why you'll notice me commenting about once a week... I sit and go through my faves and just look at everyone's most recent picture(s) and comment as I feel inspired to do (which is on about 75% of the images.)

Anyway. GothicAngel and Ladona, I'll remove you guys when I do an update. I'm not gonna do one now cos I have some store testing to do before I hit the sack, and I'm kinf od tired already. I just got back from watching PotC3. Arrrrr, mateys!

Anyway... Let's just review a few ideas and suggestions. I'd like to really blueksy things so don't hold back. Here's what we've got so far:

• Current gallery method (i.e. adding everyone to faves and commenting from your faves list)
• Just commenting based on the list of members in the opening post
• Using a forum-based discussion method (is currently being used by some of the group in the Art Theory forum)
• Having a new section of the gallery
• Having a new genre in the gallery
• Ability to select multiple genres at upload
• Some kind of community-group or buddy-system (similar to group systems on networking sites such as myspace or livejournal)
• Using keywords to search for images where critique is appreciated
• Having a "critique filter" at upload
• The ability to have multiple comments and replies to comments under gallery images
• Restricting the group to a certain size (suggestions on size?)

OK keep 'em coming folks.... The more suggestions and discussion, the better we can make any changes we need to keep the torch burning, so to speak :-)

I'm still optimistic about poser users being more receptive to criticism, possibly due to their participation in this critique club. perhaps if there were some incentive for critics whom they respect to give detailed critiques, that might help assuage those who haven't been getting their fair share of critiques.

You know your post made me think of something...  There have been people whose images I can be at loss as to what to say. For me, that happend especially with beginners (those whom have a lot of room to improve). If a person posting an image would make a comment for critique group saying something to the effect, please give me feedback on composition, or on coloring, or some rendering specific, or whether the intended mood of the image is the same as what audience sees etc... it would help focus the critique to what is most helpful at that moment.
It can be frustrating when someone says, for example, certain things (insert specifics) about lighting need to be worked on, and that particular thing is perhaps too far above the artists current ability.

Yeah, I'm being cranky today. Sorry.
@fivecat    BIG HUG!   Sorry I have a thing about black cats, I can't pas one up without hugging it! ;)  My black Kitty, Tigger makes me do it ;)

Ok after reading this thread again I have changed my mind. Karen please leave me on the list.

I will try & not let those ebots get to me LOL I will only comment when I have time & can give the images the attention they deserve.

**Anniebel: ** You can do as suggested above, and tick off being notified when someone posts an image, and when you get time to and feel like it, go down your favorites list and just check the their galleries for new postings.  That might make it easier on you.

**Ladonna: ** Don't get disheartened when people post their opinion.  There's an old saying "Opinions are like *ssholes, everyone's got one". ha!   In any case, their posting an opinion is simply that, you can read it and just move on.  At the very minimum, do feel pride they felt moved to view your art and take their time out (however misguided) to make a comment, good, bad, or indifferent.     Sadly, when you make an artistic interpretation of a mythological or legendary figure, some just "view" it the way that either A:  they've seen it, or B: (and be careful here in judging opinion too harshly) it might be a native thing to them.   With your nike image, which I havent gotten a chance to comment on but just looked at, its not what I "expected" Nike to look like either.  This is not saying you don't have a right to paint it any way you want, but when you take an "engrained" figure, and change it, you are welcoming and luring in "opinion" against the expected figure.

Here's an example.  Today (forgive me i forget the artist) there was an image up very "KKK" clansman.   The image though meant to be the opposite SEEMS PRO KKK, but it is not.  I had commented my opinion, and WHY i had that opinion.  Because the main figure is flipping the bird at you.    Its a visual thing of expectation, when one flips the "bird".... one expects that as an agressive act.

I can relate to you, as I've done a Valkyrie, Joan of Arc, and other such figures, and get the occassional "she should have this" or "Your joan of arc is too pretty, she's supposed to be ugly".  Just brush by those, as you cant change someone's opinion..... or indelibly their right to want you to know it LOL

OK Anniebel, will do ;-)

Ladona, around expectations: take a look if you can find an old thread (I think from early April) by Chris (BAR-code) about how hollywood films shape our expectations. It was after Chris had posted a render which was perfect according to his artistic vision, but many commenters expected to see something different (or rather, to see something that wasn't there.) So they were all commenting on this,

Remember, it's up to you what you take away from critique. If it wasn't useful, so be it. You're the one with the paintbrush/pencil/parameter dial!

Quote -
Here's an example.  Today (forgive me i forget the artist) 

huh!! the hours we spent together!! ...and you've forgotten me already! :D

Thank you so much karen for still willing to try many options to keep this ship afloat.  Is it possible to set up the various options you mentioned as a 'questionaire'  with multiple choices  to click like:
'Very good choice for me' ; ' Not perfect, but I will stay in group if no better choice is available'; 'not an acceptable option for me, i will leave if this is only option'
Should be easier for you to sum up what the opinions are this way. (But I have no idea how difficult it is to set up)
Also, I am sure some of the group members do not often read this thread, is it possible for you to alert them by a colletive e-mail?
From the options in the list so far I dont understand how a 'Having a "critique filter" at upload' would work, and also how the "community-group or buddy-system" would work. (sorry to be so backward but never looked at myspace or livejournal)
Thanks again karen and all brave members who are still hanging on !

Zollster: Forgive me handsome....  I'm such a ditz :)  Do you still love me whole loads? LOL

of course i do! :D

Quote - .....    See the movie Curse of the Golden Flower for utterly spectacular use of color through out and you see my point.  I despise movies like that, yet that color kept me staring in awe.

LOL you know, I watched that movie with my hubby and best friend and towards the beginning I was talking about how so many bright colors in such odd places really caught the eye... but when they showed that massive field of yellow flowers, my eyes started to water :P

I even got excited when they trampled through them all because I thought it was too much yellow and almost cried when they had these people bring out boatloads of MORE freakin' yellow flowers!

karen1573 - please pull me from the list.  when i get told i have  an "attitude," and compared to a "clueless manager"  for pointing out a feature some might not know about or even remember, it just compounds with other needless and pointless insults that totally misinterpret or ignore what i try to post.  the negativity on this site has just become a total drain.  i don't want it and i certainly don't need it.

i hope everyone else stays and enjoys the club.

oh, and it's "she."

????  what what what???

You know, we're all starting to sound like a bunch of kids that run around screaming at mommy to make everything fair. We chase each other around biting and pulling hair and doing what most children do.... which is not realize that that's life.

People are leaving, and more people will eventually leave. Just don't forget that we'll still get new members as well. Its alot like a real family (well at least my old boss' family, he never knew when it was time to stop having kids) where some kids grow up and move out of the house while new kids are born and need to be taught as well so the older kids can eventually grow up and move out as well. 

Every family has arguments and differences in opinions. Lets just try not to let them get in the way of what this group (or family) was created for. I'm trying to stay positive here guys, I hope some others can see that too...

Cobaltdream has always given some of the best feedback with least compromise of any that I've gotten - she pushes me to get better results and has very good insights.  Really valuable criticism, very consistently.

I somehow feel like this is all my fault for being so outspoken and honest about my reasons for leaving   :(  Maybe I should have just asked to be removed and left it at that.

Quote - Group hug :) 

Weee, ya-yaaaa-ug, every-one   group hug !!
[I don't wanna hear a peep about this! I know my cheerleading sucks]

Quote - > Quote - .....    See the movie Curse of the Golden Flower for utterly spectacular use of color through out and you see my point.  I despise movies like that, yet that color kept me staring in awe.

 

LOL you know, I watched that movie with my hubby and best friend and towards the beginning I was talking about how so many bright colors in such odd places really caught the eye... but when they showed that massive field of yellow flowers, my eyes started to water :P

I even got excited when they trampled through them all because I thought it was too much yellow and almost cried when they had these people bring out boatloads of MORE freakin' yellow flowers!

gasp
are you saying there's something wrong with yellow flowers? You dissin' my favorite flowers? :blink:
[Kitty lacing up her boxing gloves!]
Okay, I'm just trying to be funny here...   well, I better go finish rigging the shoes...

At the risk of having my head bitten off  - I agree that the feedback I have seen cobaltdream give to others (I didnt get any, which is fine with me) seemed knowledgable  and helpfull, no doubt  she will be missed. However, she isnt always very understanding towards people who express  opinions she doesnt agree with, and/or she thinks are wrong.  If she applied the same sensitivity towards people that she applies towards art there would be much less hurt feeling on all sides.

actually, i've been on this site and others for years, and debated things quite amicably with others.  and i've never called anyone names or insulted them.  and i've never gotten upset at others if they didn't either insult me or my work.  this is the only site out of several i frequent where i've seen this kind of behavior, and seen it go unchecked.  this is, in fact, the first time in about 8 years i've felt the need to pull out of a group or a community.

I hope you never got that from me, and I sure hope it wasn't from a significant number of people... I am disappointed to hear you were treated poorly,   I always welcomed your criticism in particular (and still do).

Quote - actually, i've been on this site and others for years, and debated things quite amicably with others.  and i've never called anyone names or insulted them.

Maybe not that you realize. Honestly, I found your post patronizing. You undoubtedly didn't mean it that way, but I found it so. I got cranky because I've become tired of my ideas being waved away as if I'm being unreasonable. My observation was harsh and I apologize if I hurt your feelings. But I won't apologize for having an opinion and expressing it. You certainly don't have to leave. If you enjoy the club then be an adult and ignore the occasional horrible meanie like me who makes you feel bad. Tell me I'm a jerk and go on with what you enjoy. As for me, I'll stay out of it from now on.

@Cobaltdream
I hope you dont leave because me. I allways loved to read your comments and critiques.You allways was fair whit your point of view.
Well if i sound yesterday like a little child. LOL well then i have to apologize.
I really dont want to hurt somebody.
For me i allways try to write a critique which not hurts the artist.
But yesterday i found one critique to harsch. Sorry. Maybee it was not my best time in the week and the viewer caught me on the wrong foot.
Sorry for this.
I hope you all dont missunderstand me. I love to read critiques on my pics. This is the way how i can learn make my images better.
But i think there are diffrent  ways to tell somebody he/she is wrong. Not only rude.
You know artists are all very sensitive . LOL
Okay lets start again.
Karen i know i sound like a little child now, but a new day a new try. Please let my name in.

@ Ladonna 

I apologize for hurting your feelings.  That was not my intention.  You have set your artistic bar very high and produced many high-value works of art!  The last one you submitted was below that bar, and not up to your usual standard.  You need to keep to your own standard of quality.

I am unfailingly honest, but not very well gifted in the social graces.  When I comment, it IS because I DO care not only for the artist, but for the art!  I am sorry my opinion caused you any grief.  I just want you to do as well as you can artistically. I was not dissing your artistic vision, I just wanted your vision of the goddess of Prefect Victory to be more Victorious!

On the internet, it's easy to not only HURT feelings, but to get feelings hurt, because ALL we can communicate with are written words. They can be intreperted many different ways, oftimes in ways unwanted or unwarranted. I am sorry if my comments seemed rude or harsh, it was only bluntly truthful without much social nicieties attached to it.

We all signed up to give our opinons in this group. Being personally attacked for this critique really soured me on this concept., so I'll not be commenting much from here on , It isn't worth the insults.

I'm here to give opinons in the forms of critiques, not get insulted up one side and down the other because I did what others did. Folks--we all can disagree AND still strive to be polite without name-calling.

I'm not dropping out of the group. I'm a born fighter, and have fought back from blindness, and a stroke, so this is small potatoes in comparison.  I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, which I obviously did.  For that, I am sorry, and do apologize.

JoelGlaine
How i wrote, yesterday was really not my best day. You caught me on a bad side. Sorry. I was harsch too and this was not mention too.
Well normaly i am really a hard taking woman. LOL But well sometimes you know how awfully the real live can be.
So lets shake hands and we just forgett this stupid thing Okay? ;)

Sounds wonderful to me!  Real life can bite our bottoms so hard sometimes, if someone says, "Nice Day", we end up biting them.

Group HUG! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

***I'd like to really blueksy things so don't hold back.
**Bad Karen! bad bad bad! takes the 'bluesky' and rips it up and stamps on it 

you are so much better than 'corpspeak' ... it's not even english*

Now, now, Khai! Let's all try to be part of the synergistic paradigm and embrace our diversity whilst thinking outside the box and seeking a win-win situation with buy-in from all parties, okay?

:lol:

At least you didn't use 'dialogue' as a verb.

....where's my chainsaw....

:m_laugh:

LOL :tt2:  Sometimes you guys are a real danger to my keyboard! This time I just ended up with sinuses filled with diet Pepsi, instead of on my keyboard.

That's better than snorting diet Coke, I guess! :lol:

Caffiene directly to the brain! WOWOWOWOWOWOW WHAT A RUSH!!! ^____^ V,,

LOL, No kidding! :lol:  I like the idea of "Hose it off and keep going."

Be a good idea for disagreements in this group, too.  Just hose us down, and We'll keep going! ^__^ V,, Bwahahahahahahahahahhah!  Got beta testing to do and comments to catch up on!
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Yeah, I was ready to start a Kitty Picture Hosing around here! :tt2:
That reminds me, I should make a kitty picture image hose for such occasions :blink:

Count me in!

Mike

I'm down to 200 pictures, which I still have to see and to comment, again. Hopefully I can lower that number tomorrow, and keep up to date then. Much to see here, much to see.

I think the creators expectations of "what's useful critique" and the critics expectations of "what help does the artist want" are at odds in general. If that makes sense.

If you go through the galleries looking for something to comment on, you could find faults in a Rembrandt painting - just based on your own values... seems to me.

I think more artists need to state in their image description what kind of help/critique they're looking for or most likely they'll get a lot of feedback that does them no good... or worse, leads them in a wrong direction (what the critic would do if it were their image... with their goals, etc).

This is a good concept overall though

Personally, i like the feedback. When you are working on an image, you can get so close to it that it takes a fresh set of eyes to point out flaws (the image i put up today is a good example. As soon as the flaws were mentioned I went, 'oh yeah... damn, i never noticed that.'). Other comments, even though they are just personal preferences being stated, can make you look at the image again even though you may not agree with the crit. Even if the viewer says your piece is shit... well at least you know who to take off your xmas card list.  Whatever the comment, it's all good.

Maybee somebody here can help me. It is the second time this happens to my Poser.
I open it and a XML error is showin. Parse error on line 100. Any suggestion what this could be?
I can render but he cuts all my external runtimes from the main runtime.
This means i just have the Poser runtime showing in the list. All the others are gone.
Any suggestions? Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I user P7 whit all the new updates.
My firefall is kasperky but Poser can enter the internet. LOL ( Its not blocked)
Even when i reinstall Poser new this shit happens. The last time i was so angry i format my PC.

Even though the links are given in the first post of this thread, I was thinking, this may be a good time for a reminder that there are couple articles available as a guide about how to critique things. I'm afraid that these grat guidelins are being neglected. For me, re-reading them puts things back into perspective (especially when I start feeling irked about something):

Giving Critique:
http://www.renderosity.com/news.php?viewStory=13546
Recieving Critique:
http://www.renderosity.com/news.php?viewStory=13552

@ Ladonna:

Parse errors should be reported to EF's technical support for a help ticket.  Also, you aren't the only one getting screwed by the EBIL PARSER errors!

Please check this thread out at the CP forums: www.contentparadise.com/forums/showthread.php Others are having a really bad time of it to.

I hope that helps. I don't think re-formatting your PC's HDD will not be warranted to solve this error.

@Conniekat:  Perspective is always a good thing.  One has to remember one main thing about critiques: if you ask for them, you ARE asking to be critised and a lot of people have as much trouble critisizing others as they have having their work critisized. ^__^ V,,

Joelglaine
Thank you a lot. This sucks really a lot. I allways ask my self why companys cant bring out a finnished produkt. Why allways so many errors???

Quote - @Conniekat:  .... a lot of people have as much trouble critisizing others .....

That's so true! I always feel like I'm going to be the bad guy... I don't let it stop me though.
Perspactive... gah, is often rather difficult to keep things in perspective. That, and the ever so elusive 'balance' I keep hearing we should keep in life.
Who? me? Balanced. ROTFL   Perhaps in my next life.

@ Ladonna--Poser has a long standing tradition of following in Microsoft's footsteps. The initial release is always so buggered, if the damned thing will run at all on any machines, they hearald it as a great triumph!  Whatever it is, nowadays--I NEVER buy until at least the first or second service release!

@ Conniekat8--Truth is a dish best served cold. Or is that revenge?  OH YEAH!!! Truth is a dish best served with cookies and a back pat.  "Y'know, son...." K-CHAK "....Ya need to shoot Old Yeller.  Your dog just isn't up to snuff. Here's a gun.  Go do it.  Want a cookie?" :lol:  Oh, yeah....been on both sides of THAT equation this month! ^__^ V,, ROFL

Just had to add, love the 'K-CHAK' :).