Sub-D can be used for inorganics ( buildings etc ) as well as organics.

And we've touched on the artistic points, but frankly, these guys are a business. So which business  model do you use?

I want to sell 1,000 people a high-end package costing $1,000

or

I want to sell 10,000 people an introductory package at $100

or....

I want to sell 10,000 people an introductory package at $100, with 20 add-ons at $20 each? (and you know who you are...;)

Before you pay the developers, rent the building, buy the furniture, and send out for late-night pizza...you have to convince the banks that you've got a viable product.

Given the 'pro's disdain for Poser (deserved or undeserved...but that's another dead horse to beat..;), you've got a reputation to build, and a skeptical niche market to invade. It wouldn't surprise me if they created something that looks like Poser, acts like Poser (but is better behaved), but isn't called Poser...

*but isn't called Poser

I'd call it PoCzar Imperial ruler of all that is 3d.

Quote - > Quote - Hope this isn't OT.  What about for morphsdon't you need the extra poly's?  svdl: that makes sense different figures for different purposes.  I have been working on a figure that has high rez face-neck, high rez hands-forearms, but low rez everything else. This would work well for clothed figures and I cannot think of a reason to have a poly heavy body with a clothed figure. And with a high rez face you still can have all the facial and expression morphs.  Thoughts?

I'm very interested!

dyret: here's what I had come up with. but after seeing the example patorak gave, I think I could do alot better and cut alot more poly's out of the body than I have here.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/media/folder_9/file_407073.jpg

I aggre with the idea of giving poser continued support. sure you can do many more things with max or the others, but then they are very hard to learn and have a blistering price tag. I like poser just because it's fun, I enjoy playing with it. Max is more like work, enormous amounts of information to learn in order to use it.

o.k., thx fr the tip, tash.  I'm seeing 2 pages using "most viewed of all time", which
I reckon may be the only way their gallery allows one to see all available images.

pal, great render of the narg posse IMVHO.

p.s. a mac pro tower, fully loaded (from apple) will cost in xs of $30,000 american.
several terabyte drives, 32 GB RAM, et al.  it'll be obsolete in 1 year, but who's counting?
plus which, ya get an added benefit - free space heating whenever it's running. :lol:

I just applied the same theory ( 8 sided lowest common denominator for rounded surface ) to the eyes and eliminated 2000 uneeded polys.

You know,  I got to thinking about Poser and Renderosity.  It seems to me that Renderosity's market is really dependent on Daz's figures and CP's figures.  Maybe we need to change that status. 

Quote - I just applied the same theory ( 8 sided lowest common denominator for rounded surface ) to the eyes and eliminated 2000 uneeded polys.

You know,  I got to thinking about Poser and Renderosity.  It seems to me that Renderosity's market is really dependent on Daz's figures and CP's figures.  Maybe we need to change that status. 

 
I had the same thought awhile back wouldn't that be great? Renderosity started as a poser based hobby site, I think it would be great if they ended up that way with great figures of their own, so if Daz goes one way that does not support poser anymore, it's not such a blow.

*I had the same thought awhile back wouldn't that be great? Renderosity started as a poser based hobby site, I think it would be great if they ended up that way with great figures of their own, so if Daz goes one way that does not support poser anymore, it's not such a blow.

I agree.  Plus,  from what I'm seeing of everyone's work here,  their figures are more professional.  I mean they bend better,  and look more realistic than Daz and CP.

Quote - *
*I agree.  Plus,  from what I'm seeing of everyone's work here,  their figures are more professional.  I mean they bend better,  and look more realistic than Daz and CP.

I believe there's a market for more realistic figures too. Any time something is of high quality and good value it should catch on providing there's support for it.

*I believe there's a market for more realistic figures too. Any time something is of high quality and good value it should catch on providing there's support for it.

I think it would give Renderosity some independence as well.  Specially if they were exclusives.

Quote - I believe there's a market for more realistic figures too. Any time something is of high quality and good value it should catch on providing there's support for it.

Ans there's the problem: support for the figure. I've seen some great figures made (EJ is one of my  all-time favourites), but there is little or no support for them. No matter how good a figure is, without a few sets of clothes,  and some good texture/morph/character sets, it's practically useless.

*Ans there's the problem: support for the figure. I've seen some great figures made (EJ is one of my  all-time favourites), but there is little or no support for them. No matter how good a figure is, without a few sets of clothes,  and some good texture/morph/character sets, it's practically useless.

What kind of clothes, textures, and morphs did you have in mind?

phantom, that's a nice clean mesh.

*"I just applied the same theory ( 8 sided lowest common denominator for rounded surface ) to the eyes and eliminated 2000 uneeded polys.

*Yes, there is not a need for those high poly eyes. What figure was it that the eyes are just about the same poly count as the figures body, Miki? I think that was the one. It really does show the thought needed to create a good low poly mesh
.
*You know,  I got to thinking about Poser and Renderosity.  It seems to me that Renderosity's market is really dependent on Daz's figures and CP's figures.  Maybe we need to change that status."

Good thought but would it work. It's not the figure so much as the support for it. There are lots of other figures for poser out there but only a very few have a lot of success. That may change as companies like Daz slowly become more subD oriented. They have built thier produts to handle subD. A main funtion that poser is behind in now. Smoothing still relies on lots of polys.

Which brings me back to the main topic. A high end, poly intensive poser app as suggested is a very poor way to do things. Your going backwards and not forwards with the tech that we have now. As others have pointed out. Realism is not defined by heavy poly count, it is materials, lighting with help from subD tech. I had thought the same thing as you a few years ago until I learned more about it.

BTW, Modo is not that hard to learn and there is a very good book for beginners. That and the tutorial vids that come with Modo, anyone can learn to model in it. I'm proof of that. LOL Also there are some great tutorials at other sites and Luxology has some great ones free and for sale, cheep, compared to what I've seen others apps tutorials priced.

LOL. Cross post with wheatpenny. That's what happens when your a slow typer like me.

I haven't committed to any particular site yet, so I can still go exclusive. There were a number of people from other sites who asked, but I did not yes or no so I'm still free. I know I'm a nobody (don't have a name) it would be better if the models came from someone who was known. I'm learning to make clothes too.  There are lots of artists here who work through renderosity that can make clothes, morphs and textures, patorak is one right here and now. patorak can make great figures too (hint, hint)

Modo, I've been hearing about that app lately, I think BastBlack was talking about it awhile back. Is it easier than Max?

Quote - Ans there's the problem: support for the figure. I've seen some great figures made (EJ is one of my  all-time favourites), but there is little or no support for them. No matter how good a figure is, without a few sets of clothes,  and some good texture/morph/character sets, it's practically useless.
What kind of clothes, textures, and morphs did you have in mind?

Mostly real-world stuff. "regular" clothes like t shirt, jeans, dresses, pants, shoes, hats, etc.

"Modo, I've been hearing about that app lately, I think BastBlack was talking about it awhile back. Is it easier than Max?"

From what I have been read around the net, many of the Max and Maya users are now modeling in Modo. Then go back and rig in thier main apps. Iron man was modeled in Modo, then IIRC rigged in Max and rendere in Lightwave. There is a story about it at Luxology. Many of the big studios are using it for thier modeling now along side thier main apps.

The UI is completely adjustable. You can set defaults of many of your other apps or make your own up.

Quote - "Modo, I've been hearing about that app lately, I think BastBlack was talking about it awhile back. Is it easier than Max?"

From what I have been read around the net, many of the Max and Maya users are now modeling in Modo. Then go back and rig in thier main apps. Iron man was modeled in Modo, then IIRC rigged in Max and rendere in Lightwave. There is a story about it at Luxology. Many of the big studios are using it for thier modeling now along side thier main apps.

The UI is completely adjustable. You can set defaults of many of your other apps or make your own up.

Oh cool! (about setting defaults)  I think I might have a trial for modo on my hard drive somewhere I'll have to look for it.  My son purchased Max for me as a gift so I cant complain (I actually picked it out but I sure didn't know what I was in for) But I've had it for two years now and have not even scratched the surface of all the stuff to learn, it's incomprehensibly huge! And I have Zbrush, I really like Zbrush though, easy for me to use.

Sorry I'm going off on tangents again.

I realise that original figures can fade into oblivion without support.  I understand the mil figures have a huge cult following and vendor support.  I realise too it's hard to sell original figures when Daz gives theirs away for free.  

But you know what...screw it!  Let's ride!

Plain Jane's back on!   

Quote - I realise that original figures can fade into oblivion without support.  I understand the mil figures have a huge cult following and vendor support.  I realise too it's hard to sell original figures when Daz gives theirs away for free.  

But you know what...screw it!  Let's ride!

Plain Jane's back on!   

Excellent! I'll buy it.

Cool!  I'll buy yours too! 

Quote -   2. Make the HIGH-END versions of Daz figures at least 3-4X the number of vertices and polygons as the current V4 with full realistic features including genitals advanced rigging for human replication, etc. Remember, the Poser software will take advantage of all memory available so having 10-30GB of RAM for these figures is not an issue.

Increasing the number of vertices, or pixels in the texture maps, isn't what makes a human 3D mesh look real. That's a fallacy that has really taken root in the Poser community and it just isn't so.

*Increasing the number of vertices, or pixels in the texture maps, isn't what makes a human 3D mesh look real. That's a fallacy that has really taken root in the Poser community and it just isn't so

You are so right!  And there are figures coming that will shatter this myth!

When Helgard,  Phantom3D,  a few others and me release our figures it's going to turn the Poserverse on it's ear.

oops, I was wrong about the mac pro tower!  it's now only $27,000 american for
32 GB, 4 dual cores, 4 terabyte drives et al.

and we're awaiting helg's, pat's and phan's new figures with great interest.

p.s.: I shudder to think of how many polygons vickie 5 will have :lol:
they'll probly hafta distribute it (along with all the boob morphs) on a two-DVD set :lol:

Increasing the number of vertices, or pixels in the texture maps, isn't what makes a human 3D mesh look real. That's a fallacy that has really taken root in the Poser community and it just isn't so.

OK, I understand the part about more poly's-vertices does not give a better texture, does not really even have anything to do with how detailed the texture is, I mean you can take one polygon with four vertices and put an entire bacground texture on it, that much I understand. However doesn't a larger texture map give better detail?

*OK, I understand the part about more poly's-vertices does not give a better texture, does not really even have anything to do with how detailed the texture is, I mean you can take one polygon with four vertices and put an entire bacground texture on it, that much I understand. However doesn't a larger texture map give better detail?

No more than 4000 x 4000.
 
BTW  Detailing with displacement process.  Paint your map at 8000 x 8000 then reduce to 4000 x 4000.  In Max go into Sub-D mode,  increase your poly count to 100,000 or more use your texture map as a mesh displacement map then bake the map. Export map,  greyscale it and use it in Poser either as a bump or displacement.

*p.s.: I shudder to think of how many polygons vickie 5 will have

LOL!  Probably enough to choke a quad core!  And incompatible with P8 to boot! 

Displacement maps are rad too! I was playing with a small one the other day doing veins, fantastic what you can do with them.  I can take the mesh up to 6 million poly's in Zbrush and do some really incredible detail right down to fine wrinkles and whorls on the fingertips!

*Displacement maps are rad too! I was playing with a small one the other day doing veins, fantastic what you can do with them.  I can take the mesh up to 6 million poly's in Zbrush and do some really incredible detail right down to fine wrinkles and whorls on the fingertips!

Whorls!  You are a genius! 

You know when it comes to morphs the mil/apollo figures don't have foot compression when walking,  thigh and buttock compression when sitting,  or hand compression when grasping.

Quote -   "You know when it comes to morphs the mil/apollo figures don't have foot compression when walking,  thigh and buttock compression when sitting,  or hand compression when grasping."

That's a great idea, I've heard quite a few complaints from people wondering why they don't have a way to do those things, so it's definitely something people want to see in a model.

Quote - OK, I understand the part about more poly's-vertices does not give a better texture, does not really even have anything to do with how detailed the texture is, I mean you can take one polygon with four vertices and put an entire bacground texture on it, that much I understand. However doesn't a larger texture map give better detail?

The pixels relate to the textures, the polys to the mesh. If you look at some of the work at cgsociety, you see some amazing work and artists will often post the wire frame of the mesh and what they use for textures. You'd be really surprised at how low rez most of them are.

Having said that, what the Poser figures have is built in morphability and therefore versatility that is truly terrific. That's what makes them fine products and not just projects. The newer figures are better, with greater use of loop modeling that's modeled after muscle groups and makes body morphing and expression making more lifelike. The early figures are slapped together approximations of a human.

Quote - Shit!  Jane just ate Vicky!  Swallowed her whole!  BTW Jane has 350 morphs.

   Cool! 350 morphs! Now that's versatility.

Quote - > Quote -   "You know when it comes to morphs the mil/apollo figures don't have foot compression when walking,  thigh and buttock compression when sitting,  or hand compression when grasping."

That's a great idea, I've heard quite a few complaints from people wondering why they don't have a way to do those things, so it's definitely something people want to see in a model.

The sitting morph is one you hear the most. I just use a magnet or magnets if it is a soft body prop that they are sitting on. So many users these days seem to think it should all be done for them. That would mean built in morphs like those would be a selling point.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -   "You know when it comes to morphs the mil/apollo figures don't have foot compression when walking,  thigh and buttock compression when sitting,  or hand compression when grasping."

That's a great idea, I've heard quite a few complaints from people wondering why they don't have a way to do those things, so it's definitely something people want to see in a model.

The sitting morph is one you hear the most. I just use a magnet or magnets if it is a soft body prop that they are sitting on. So many users these days seem to think it should all be done for them. That would mean built in morphs like those would be a selling point.

I can change the plugs in my truck and give it a tune up too but I'd rather take it to the shop and have them do it.

"I can change the plugs in my truck and give it a tune up too but I'd rather take it to the shop and have them do it."

Not the same at all. Not everyone has the tools and scopes to tune a truck, they do have the tools needed in Poser.

Besides I was pointing out that the morphs would be a good selling point to add.

Quote - "I can change the plugs in my truck and give it a tune up too but I'd rather take it to the shop and have them do it."

Not the same at all. Not everyone has the tools and scopes to tune a truck, they do have the tools needed in Poser.

Besides I was pointing out that the morphs would be a good selling point to add.

I think so too, and if you don't need them you don't have to load them. What I meant was it's just easier with the morphs.

*Besides I was pointing out that the morphs would be a good selling point to add.

It's amazing for as many morphs that the mil/Apollo figures have that they left out some of the essential morphs.  You know,  soft body dynamics is one of the things art directors look for.

You can fake some softbody stuff. Add a magnet to your figures body, open the Add Element to Deform and add all the body groups you want to be effected. Then just parent the magnet to a finger and scale the mag zone down. Now all you have to do is run the finger anywhere you want and it fakes the softbody look.

I learned that one in 2002 here fom a thread that does not seem to be anymore. There is a newer one that claims the discovery. That's poserdom. LOL

Tashar  - I have the tools perhaps to build a car. But I buy one ready made because what I lack is time and time to learn the skill. So I model in 3d and don't build cars.

Everyone else. to Make V4 into a high end figure, Daz need to release the pre sub-d mesh.

I have a game figure that I found on the net, just 3000 polys, but when I add 3 levels of sub-d in max, it turns into a beautiful mesh and I only need rig the low poly version, and perhaps add morphs after 1 level of sub-d, adding perhaps 2 more levels after than. the textures that came with it fit on a 1024x1024 page, but came with correct bumps and specular maps. Not the stupid 4000x4000x5 maps that people have started to make. ANd unfortunatley the ignorance in the poser community believes that this is a worthwhile thing to have.

Daz could release V4 as a subd mesh cause she was made in modo as a sub-d figure

*Daz could release V4 as a subd mesh cause she was made in modo as a sub-d figure

If they could they would.   

*You can fake some softbody stuff. Add a magnet to your figures body, open the Add Element to Deform and add all the body groups you want to be effected. Then just parent the magnet to a finger and scale the mag zone down. Now all you have to do is run the finger anywhere you want and it fakes the softbody look.

I learned that one in 2002 here fom a thread that does not seem to be anymore. There is a newer one that claims the discovery. That's poserdom. LOL

Excellent tip.   

"Tashar  - I have the tools perhaps to build a car. But I buy one ready made because what I lack is time and time to learn the skill. So I model in 3d and don't build cars."

LOL Not sure if that was a joke or a missed the original point or mis communication between everyone and became an apple/ orange debate. It happens.

I have the tools to build a car too. It's called Modo.

Doesn't Daz have the subD V4 as part of the DS content? I thought there was a recent thread on her in the poser forum.

Quote - Tashar  - I have the tools perhaps to build a car. But I buy one ready made because what I lack is time and time to learn the skill. So I model in 3d and don't build cars.

Everyone else. to Make V4 into a high end figure, Daz need to release the pre sub-d mesh.

I have a game figure that I found on the net, just 3000 polys, but when I add 3 levels of sub-d in max, it turns into a beautiful mesh and I only need rig the low poly version, and perhaps add morphs after 1 level of sub-d, adding perhaps 2 more levels after than. the textures that came with it fit on a 1024x1024 page, but came with correct bumps and specular maps. Not the stupid 4000x4000x5 maps that people have started to make. ANd unfortunatley the ignorance in the poser community believes that this is a worthwhile thing to have.

Daz could release V4 as a subd mesh cause she was made in modo as a sub-d figure

Maps can come in different sizes, an idea I'm working on is to have two different sets of maps for the same model. One set would be a single map with everything connected except the arms (which would be at the sides) basically a low rez map.  The second set of maps would be high rez versions with the head on one map, the torso on another and arms and legs on another. Both sets of maps would work for the model and it would be the texture artists choice of which they wanted to use.

Tashar59: I think it's just miscomunication, probably my fault too. sorry.

LOL. as I said, "it happens."

Can that be done? 2 different UVmapings on a single object?

Can that be done? 2 different UVmapings on a single object? You would need two separately mapped objects to have that in Poser. Of course, in Lightwave or Modo you can have as many maps as you want.

I don't know about two UV maps, but with a single UV map you can have any combination of texture maps that you want as long as the materials point to the correct map. I didn't explain that right, yes you need different copies of the model, it's just body switching, does that make sense? I'm getting tired, time for bed.

I get what you mean now.

Quote - "I can change the plugs in my truck and give it a tune up too but I'd rather take it to the shop and have them do it."

Not the same at all. Not everyone has the tools and scopes to tune a truck, they do have the tools needed in Poser.

Besides I was pointing out that the morphs would be a good selling point to add.

I can see where you are coming from here. 

That is one reason why I think Poser WILL continue to shine for many years in some form or the other. The ease of use is the key, especially for the Daz figures and such with their built-in morphs. Having built-in morphs is a must for any new figure to be popular and supported. 

 Mondo could be the app, but correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not as easy to play with as it would be as Poser and a Daz figure with the built-in morphs. Sure, you can always sculpt and do your own, but if you are talking about the HUGE mass market appeal of selling like here at Renderosity, then look no further than the market place. Almost 90% of all new content is for the current Daz figures. So, unless you have a design team behind you, I don't see a way to possibly make enough cloths, props, etc. to support any figure for mass market. 

Also, how and could you add hundreds of morphs to your custom figure in Modo to make it easy to sculpt for body, face and expressions like the V4, M3 figures by Daz? I don't know anything about Modo other than Daz V4 was created in it. That's why I was wondering how hard it would be to do all those morphs for a figure you design yourself. 

Again, I think we are comparing 2 different ways of doing things to 2 different markets. One is more professional and taking a longer time to learn and work with to achieve what you want. The other is giving you ready-to-go type figures and software. I see the advantages and disadvantages to both sides here.