Quote - Ngons are a great way to reduce poly count.

...and a great way to bog down the amount of time it takes to render something or calculate physics against 'em. (OpenGL and IIRC DX have to break everything down to triangles as well).

Not that an algorithm isn't possible to logically break it down into tris, but I wouldn't look to them as any sort of cure-all. Quads aren't bad (most pre-processors can break 'em down very quickly for consumption by the GPU), but once you start reaching higher than that, things can get real ugly, real fast.

Just $0.02 from the coding side of the house. :)

/P

*...and a great way to bog down the amount of time it takes to render something or calculate physics against 'em. (OpenGL and IIRC DX have to break everything down to triangles as well).

I didn't know that.

no worries - I had to deal with some of it a long time ago, but it really didn't hit home until I started learning how things get done real-time style @ work. It's kinda fun (in an evil way) to see the look of dread in an coder's eyes - especially when he has compile it all against an ARM-based HD video controller chip.

It's not as evil in our (3d artist app) end of it, esp. with Poser and D|S being very quad-friendly ('divide by two' is an easy enough function to include and doesn't stress things by too much) but calculating against anything bigger for OGL or DX? well... still sucks.

/P

Progress Report 02

http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Face_GS_GSL.jpg

http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Body_GSL.jpg

http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Body_GS.jpg

Well since where modeling content for Poser,DS

That's not V4's Hot Minnie Skirts, Sexy Panties,Sinful String Bikinis,etc etc

That would make us Rogues,Rebels,Outlaws and Renegades.

Don't be surprised when ya see ya mug on a most wanted poster ;)

I have Poser 5

What's up with the stock Characters with 6,7 that only a few uses them ?

ODF's sounded like Poser has Sub_D's

Does Poser 6,7 have Sub_D's ? and if it does, will it Divide Tri's ?

Phantom3D : I fell your pain.

RorrKonn
http://64.234.196.28/

Poser doesn't have Sub-D's, it uses Reyes subdivision for smoothing, rather than Catmull-Clark.

JonTheCelt

Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to rig a thigh in Poser so that it doesn't indent the hip part when it bends outward at an extreme angle? My kingdom for a weight map! I feel like Dr. McCoy, trying to perform brain surgery with 'stone knives and bearskins.' Oh well, at least the bending is acceptable within the not-so-limber parameters of average human movement…

Wasn't there someone else that was doing some rigging that put most figures to shame with the bending? I can't remember the users name but IIRC they are still posting at "that other site which can't be named but we all know what it is."

Something about 2 hips? or hip groups? It could have ben more butt and thigh groups, I just can't remember but the images were very interesting.

patorak and phantom3D are two of the best riggers I've ever seen (not counting Anton.)

RorrKonn:  It looks like its getting there, lookin good.  

I ended up purchasing a new computer it's a dell XPS running a intel core 2 quad core Q6600, and vista premium 32bit.  But I am having alot of trouble getting my important apps to install.
Mainly Zbrush3.  It installs but does not bring up the activation page after, just goes straight to invalid activation code and shutdown, without even giving me the chance to activate it. Well, I'll figure it out.

Paloth: the side to side bend on the hip-leg is a b**ch. I used the best setting I could arrange for the joint ect and then use a body handle to pull out most of the dent.

Tashar59: I believe you mean me, yes I am using a secondary hip and unusuall grouping for the hip. I also have a thread here in the critique forum that is rather long but goes through much of it.  I posted pics at the unamable site where they recieved enthusiastic response :)  They really need a great bending figure there, considering they do not use clothing very often :)

Well I'm off to try and figure out how to beat this new computer into submission :)

latter,

Mike (phantom3D)

I remember patorak mentioned something once about removing the "twisty" for better thigh movement, but I'm not sure which twisty.. My experiments with twisty removal have shown no effect.

There you go. So I was kinda right. I couldn't remember who and I was kinda right about the hip. Oh well.

phantom3D,  I will check the thread.

*I remember patorak mentioned something once about removing the "twisty" for better thigh movement, but I'm not sure which twisty.. My experiments with twisty removal have shown no effect.

The trick is to place a sphere inside the hip name that hip,  your usual hip group name that pelvis.  Then remove all the affectors between the pelvis and hip.

Quote - The trick is to place a sphere inside the hip name that hip,  your usual hip group name that pelvis.  Then remove all the affectors between the pelvis and hip.

Err... explanation please for those of us slow on the uptake? (Diagrams with pretty pictures particularly appreciated.)

Seriously, I assume that has been discussed elsewhere, so a link would be fine.

Thanks for that, patorak. I'll have to try it.

I'm not sure I understand, but I think what he is saying is that by linking the thigh bones to an added sphere of geometry in the hip region, and by severing the affectors between the hip substitute and the original hip through a hack of the cr2, you can have extreme thigh movement without smashing the hip part.

It was at rendervisions but it looks like they've had a meltdown.  I'll post a diagram tomorrow night.  Right now I'm drawing up a new lightwave rigging,  hopefully I'll be able to use it in Poser as well.  It involves kind of a pendulum attached to the thigh bone. One running on the z axis and one running on the x axis.  I'm trying to get a sway in the glutes and jiggle in the thighs.

*I'm not sure I understand, but I think what he is saying is that by linking the thigh bones to an added sphere of geometry in the hip region, and by severing the affectors between the hip substitute and the original hip through a hack of the cr2, you can have extreme thigh movement without smashing the hip part.

Yep!  It isolates the hip.

Quote - *I'm not sure I understand, but I think what he is saying is that by linking the thigh bones to an added sphere of geometry in the hip region, and by severing the affectors between the hip substitute and the original hip through a hack of the cr2, you can have extreme thigh movement without smashing the hip part.

Yep!  It isolates the hip.[/quote

Ah, now I get it. Quite clever! I'll have to try it at some point.

But wait: how does that affect the normal function of the hip actor, though? Does the figure still follow hip (or rather, hip replacement) movements? How is the ability of taking poses from 'standard' figures affected? What happens if instead we call the original hip hip and the replacement pelvis?

*But wait: how does that affect the normal function of the hip actor, though? Does the figure still follow hip (or rather, hip replacement) movements?

Yep,  but forget about walk designer you'll have to create bvh's. 

*How is the ability of taking poses from 'standard' figures affected?

I never recommend taking poses from standard figures and applying them to your own.  Too many mesh modifier tricks in them.  reversed parenting for scaling is one example.

What happens if instead we call the original hip hip and the replacement pelvis?

Then you will not be able to isolate the hip and you'll end up with an added abdomen group.

Thanks! You are a never-ending source of wisdom.

Quote - I'm not sure I understand, but I think what he is saying is that by linking the thigh bones to an added sphere of geometry in the hip region, and by severing the affectors between the hip substitute and the original hip through a hack of the cr2, you can have extreme thigh movement without smashing the hip part.

Someone already did that befor? :) Things I thought were new inovations, I keep finding that someone beat me to it a long time past   

Progress Repot 3

http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Body_Diamond.jpg

Atempting to Quad Diamond.

An observation and a question:  I've been looking back through various tutes and posts on various sites, and I have found that there have been many, many, little inovations and improvements for the poser rigging over the years.  Why then have they not been used by Daz and Poser?

Daz rigs the way they think is better and works in both Poser and DS but more and more to work in DS. It's getting to be a real pain to use thier figures in Poser. Don't forget that they now have rigging in DS, not out for public but they are letting some try the beta with a one month licence.

Poser figures, just poor workmanship. No real excuse. Notice they have never bothered to fix the bending in the poser figures/G3/Miki's and so on? Merchants always show them with thier arms and legs straight as possible or hide them. LOL.

OK, so I have a bit of a hate/.disappointment with the way Daz and CL/eF/SM rig.

This is how I always looked at it.

DAS took one mesh and made V3,A3 and M3.

So you have a girl and a boy with the same mesh.

Now add a lot of morphs.so you have a girl / guy from skinny to healthy to model to body builder.

But none of them bent perfectly but better then the rest.

I would imagine they had to compromise on the rigs some to get one mesh to do all it does do.

Quote - This is how I always looked at it.

DAS took one mesh and made V3,A3 and M3.

So you have a girl and a boy with the same mesh.

Now add a lot of morphs.so you have a girl / guy from skinny to healthy to model to body builder.

But none of them bent perfectly but better then the rest.

I would imagine they had to compromise on the rigs some to get one mesh to do all it does do.

You are right in that you cannot go outside of your falloff zones with the morphs, but you can scale a model then use morphs more sparingly, although you can only scale so far on some parts befor the falloff zones start overlapping.  I really think that poser could let Daz go if they had better figures, because I do think Daz is going their own way.  Personally I will stick with poser just because I like the app better. If they were to actually gather together all the little inovations and improvements that people like you and me come up with and go through them keep what works, they could put out some killer stuff.

But there are many things that they seem to have just ignored like body handles (one example)

Poser is nothing more then a orphan going from foster home to foster home.

Heck even the 1902 black n white Poser 5 manual goes see forms.

All the third party stuff in the market place including DAZ meshes + the,Mats, INJ, Rig plugs etc etc all the stuff that keeps Poser going.

and it is all from us users.

Poser foster parents don't do much for Poser.

If it wasn't for us users.

Poser would have been Dead long ago.

When the users go to DS and N-Sided.

It will be the death of Poser.

Hi All!

Sorry,  I haven't posted in a couple of days.  I've been immersed in studing the female in motion.  And all I got to say is WOW!

Progress Repot 3

* *http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Body_Diamond.jpg

* Atempting to Quad Diamond.

Lookin' good.  Have you started any fbm's?

*Someone already did that befor? :) Things I thought were new inovations, I keep finding that someone beat me to it a long time past   
An observation and a question:  I've been looking back through various tutes and posts on various sites, and I have found that there have been many, many, little inovations and improvements for the poser rigging over the years.  Why then have they not been used by Daz and Poser?

There's nothing new under the poser sun.LOL  Mayadoll used magnets in the hip area long before V4.  Steve Torino used buffer bones in Eve.  I think poser users wouldn't know what to do with a professionally rigged figure.

*Poser figures, just poor workmanship. No real excuse. Notice they have never bothered to fix the bending in the poser figures/G3/Miki's and so on? Merchants always show them with thier arms and legs straight as possible or hide them. LOL.

*OK, so I have a bit of a hate/.disappointment with the way Daz and CL/eF/SM rig.

I agree.  I think this is why so many figures are bloated with scaling tricks.  Then again we have to have simple rigging for walk designer not to mention the figure height thing.  I also think the daz figures,  daz style figures,  and cp figures have been created with an inherent mistake,  and that is using the hip bone as the root bone,  insteasd of the root bone being separate.
 

Ahh, so how much was studying the female body and how much time did you do after when arrested? LOL.

*Ahh, so how much was studying the female body and how much time did you do after when arrested? LOL.

LOL.  But your Honor...I just wanted some hands on research...Seriously,  though,  I think if someone were to crack my skull open a bunch of jiggly butts would come flying out.

fbm's ? ah no.

Meshes such as yours,V3 that has 100's of morphs is more of a long term relation ship. that last a year or two.

Then we get a new and improved V4 spend 1000's on her for a year or two then we start looking for V5.You know like marriages.

RorrKonn and his meshes just don't do long term relationships.

Diamonds more of a week or two holiday.

But no worry's still have Emerald,Safire etc etc to model.

Anyways I am having to much trouble out of a 100% real quad mesh.

Polycounts to high.

Hair lines are wrong.

Can not get the detail I want.

Not going to liter the mesh with off the wall quads have it ate up with vertices that just have 3 lines to them just so I can say it's a quad mesh.

Bends are questionable.

etc etc.

For males could never model 100% real quad body builder.

The only 100% real quad meshes that can be modeled have no details and look like cartoons,there just boring.

App's that can only divide quads are just lame.

Going to get XSI very soon.

Attached Link: Who you callin' cartoon-like?

My Antonia is 100% quads, though, and so far no one's said to my face that she's boring and cartoon-like. ;-)

ODF Your mesh is killer.

Most people with high end apps could not model what you did in wings.

Any body that can produce a charter like yours with wings should be given a high end app.

Wings is free. it's lame of me to call a free app lame. but wings is lame cause it won't divide a Tri.Your a killer 3D Artist and you deserve a app that will divide Tri's.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/media/folder_9/file_408314.png

In your topology you have some places that has vertices with 3 lines to it.

biceps & back of the leg you have odd angled quads.

I know you had to do all this to keep the mesh quads.

Anyways I want you to sell a lot your mesh so you can get you a descent app that will divide Tri's

I need some descent app's and a new pc my self.

I'm trying to scrounge the $$$ for XSI.

So I Keep in mind my mesh Diamond is competing against some very hot very pretty girls.

So I try to make sure Diamonds face is so beautiful and hot men would cross the seven sea's just for a kiss.or a least cross the street. ;)

Odf,  she looks awesome!  Like RorrKonn says try and get a hold of a high end app.  I know Maya has a personal learning addition that's free. 

Have not checked Maya out since before AutoDesk got it.

So it's been a while.

Not sure if you can save and if you can save.

I would make sure you can make commercial products with Maya's learning addition.

Maya did have a reputation for having lame polygon modeling tools.

Wonder if Maya can divide a Tri yet ?

My knowledge of 3D App's is out dated.hard to keep up with everything.

These are the two modeling app's I would like to have.

http://www.softimage.com/ XSI Foundation " Extra lite version " $ 500.

http://www.luxology.com/ Modo $ 900.

Have not checked Maya out since before AutoDesk got it.

So it's been a while.

Not sure if you can save and if you can save.

I would make sure you can make commercial products with Maya's learning addition.

Maya did have a reputation for having lame polygon modeling tools.

*Wonder if Maya can divide a Tri yet ?

*I don't know.

the Maya learning edition can't export in any format other than its native format (which can't be read by any other programs), and the renders are watermarked, so pro all intents and purposes, it's unsuitable for any serious work'
The only thing you can really use it for is to learn Maya before buying the regular edition.

XSI Foundation is pretty awesome for the price as it has all the same modelling and animating tools that it's advanced version does. Even has cloth and particles and you can buy a hair plugin for another $100. It can do mixed tri/quad subds so that tris get divided into tri and quads to quads all on the same mesh. And of course you get a licence of mentalray which is a pretty nice renderer.

But if you want a pure modeler then perhaps modo will be better for you. Its animation and rendering suck in comparison but it has a couple of tools that XSI doen't like for texturing and sculpting.

Personally i use XSI + ZBrush, but that comes out more expensive then modo alone and not everyone likes ZBrush's GUI.

Just for your information: Wings3D can divide triangles - and polygons of any size for that matter - just fine. When I started working on Antonia, I was planning to do part of the shaping in ZBrush, which really doesn't like non-quads much (or at least ZBrush 2 didn't - don't know about the more recent ones.)

In the end I found that I preferred Wings for shaping, anyway, but I got used to modeling with quads only. It's probably just a silly obsession of mine, but to me a pure quad mesh looks better aesthetically, and it feels like I have better control over the final shape.

Wings has other limitations, though: for example, it only accepts closed bodies (although one can mark faces as 'holes', so it's not that big of a problem) and it doesn't support real symmetric modeling. That means I'll have to jump through some hoops to keep editing the model after grouping. There's probably not much support for morph creation, either.

I was thinking about having a look at Modo at some point. At the moment, that's the application that looks most promising to me. The thing I found about high-end applications is that they don't necessarily provide an interface and workflow that's to my taste. That's probably the main reason I'm still using Wings. Beside the fact that I like to support free software wherever I can.

I use 3dsmax and Lightwave. Both are unbeatable, IMO, and not that hard to learn

I wish I could afford either of them. :/

Patorak :

Plain Jane's looking good.

I've never rigged in Poser before but from what I here it's going to be a nightmare.

But like the saying goes.

What does not kill us,Makes us Stronger. ;)

ODF :

My bad twice ,20 lashes for RorrKonn.

C4D HyperNURDS won't divide a Tri in to a Tri but in a Froze mesh you can Sub_D and Smooth and it will divide a Tri in to a Tri but since HyperNURBS won't it's kinda pointless.

I get what ya saying about UI's.

I have never messed with Modo so don't know about there UI.

but since it's from LW'ers I'm skeptical but as long as it's got the tools I'll survive the UI.

XSI's medieval UI is whored.

These coders kill me they make a killer app but a monstrous UI or they have a killer UI but no Tri's.

Since you only want Quads C4D's UI is killer 100% Customizable can make there UI look like any other's 3D App's UI.C4D's 10 Core is $900.

Wish I could just buy tools and UI's from deferent coders.

I'd have C4D's UI,XSI's Subdivision system,Posers poses etc etc.Now that would be a killer App.

RorrKonn: Maybe I misunderstood. Wings3d's normal method allows triangles, but subdivides them into quads. They've added a second subdivision method recently, but I haven't looked at it in detail yet.

I'm starting to wonder if I should play with Antonia's mesh a bit and see what it will look like if I eliminate those vertices with three faces and use triangles instead. Forcing everything into quads does indeed feel a bit unnatural sometimes.

patorak: Looking good so far. I so wish Poser had weight maps. Spherical falloff zones are no fun at all. Apparently, some people manage to do great rigs in Poser, though, so it is possible. I just downloaded Apollo Maximus this morning to study his rigging and hopefully pick up some tricks.

ODF : Anyways I did not mean for you to remodel this mesh just make her hotter then any other female out there, map, rig, sell her :)

Your next mesh.

If your 3D App will divide a Tri in to Tri's then you can model with Tri's

If it converts a Tri in to a Quad best not to have any Tri's in the mesh.

All I know for sure is there is no perfect topology.

And it's a waste of time worrying about it.

So it's best to have a app that will divide Tri's in to Tri's.

So I can just set down model the mesh don't worry if it has Tri's or not.

Quote - Your next mesh.

Hmm... my next mesh? Maybe you're right: it's time I started thinking about my next mesh. That way, I can distract myself from the inevitable frustration while rigging Antonia.

But what should it be? So far I've done:

• a wine glass
• a ring
• an ugly male head
• a nekkid woman

(with, quite predictably, 99.9% of the time spent on the nekkid woman.)

I guess mesh number five would have to be another organic one, because technical stuff has a tendency to bore me. Any suggestions?

Patorak :

Plain Jane's looking good.

I've never rigged in Poser before but from what I here it's going to be a nightmare.

But like the saying goes.

*What does not kill us,Makes us Stronger. ;)

Thanks.  I'm refining the mesh and weight maps as I build my rig.  So far,  I've had to spin out quads in the abdomen area and blend the weight maps at 10 iterations.  BTW I'm going to try and enter her in the Lightwave model, animate, and render contests.

*patorak: Looking good so far. I so wish Poser had weight maps. Spherical falloff zones are no fun at all. Apparently, some people manage to do great rigs in Poser, though, so it is possible. I just downloaded Apollo Maximus this morning to study his rigging and hopefully pick up some tricks.

Thanks.  I wish Poser had weight maps too.  It would make life sooo much easier.  As for Apollo,  I think Anton's rigging is the closest to a professional rig.  I'm surprised that it didn't set a standard in Poserdom.

*Hmm... my next mesh? Maybe you're right: it's time I started thinking about my next mesh. That way, I can distract myself from the inevitable frustration while rigging Antonia.

*But what should it be? So far I've done:

• a wine glass
• a ring
• an ugly male head
• a nekkid woman

If your putting together a demo reel,  I'd suggests a vehicle and a landscape.

*" I get what ya saying about UI's.*I have never messed with Modo so don't know about there UI.

but since it's from LW'ers I'm skeptical but as long as it's got the tools I'll survive the UI."

Ah, No. In fact, The UI is one of Modo's great features. You can customize it to how you want it. You can build it from a blank window to the way you want, should you choose too. Also a Viewport Color scheme to give it a Max, Maya, lightwave and about 16 other color look.

But, I find UI's are very personal, so you really need to test out all the demos before guessing and hearsay as to what they are like. I think  apps like ZBrush and Truespace were brought to this planet from some other galaxy just to frustrate users. LOL.

Quote - How's this for an ankle bend?

Not bad at all.

I was just rigging ankles yesterday, and I found I got better results with a lower articulation point, so that the back crease is right at the top of the heel. I would post pictures, but I'm off to work in a minute. Maybe later when I find some time.