Interesting discussion.  I think the main reason e-on is segregating the Artist and Pro lines is that they are on two different development and support trajectories.  How would e-on for example handle the case where someone went from V6I to V7 Complete ($99) and then let's say 6 months from now, e-on comes out with a major .5 release as they have indicated (7.5 ???)  they will do as part of the Pro maintenance agreement.  What would be the updgrade price for V7 Complete to V7 Infinite then?  If you made it too inexpensive, it would cheat those who are paying maintenance on V7 Infinite now.  I think there is probably some middle ground here:

1. Increase the time frame from 30 days to 90 days on the updgrade choice trial period. 

2.  I think It's quite probable that e-on will put together some kind of special program at a future date to lure some Complete users into the Inifnite/xStream camp - probably at, or around the time of any .5 release.  Maintenance on infinite for the .5 or any other major release I think is around $395/yr.   I could envision some kind of special program, in the $400 ish range for this kind of move. 

Quote -
Quote **chippwalters
**
Now, think of Adobe Photoshop vs Adobe Elements. Of course there is no upgrade path from Adobe Elements to Adobe Photoshop-- but in fact Adobe Elements is mostly just a subset of Photoshop functionality. Similar problem.

There is an upgrade path from Elements to PS.

Full price: $699

Upgrade to Adobe Photoshop CS4
Adobe Photoshop CS3, CS2, or CS Adobe Photoshop CS4 US$199
Adobe Photoshop Elements (Mac OS) 6.0, 4.0, or 3.0 Adobe Photoshop CS4 US$599
Adobe Photoshop Elements (Windows®) 7.0, 6.0, 5.0, or 4.0 Adobe Photoshop CS4 US$599

Via the upgrade root PS CS4 is cheaper.

Adobe has always allowed an upgrade to the full version of Photoshop from Elements for as long as I can remember.

I have V6I and I am also unsure about upgrading. I do not agree with not being able to upgrade from Complete to Infinite either and so probably will not upgrade at the present time until I see what is happening with this.

Rids
I didnt know about the previous pricing scheme. (I was lucky at the time, I just sold one of my watercolor paintings and used the money to buy v6inf directly). You're right  - significantly more expensive.
However, at the moment it seems their underlying philosophy is 'get them in at the cheap rate and they can spend the rest later, no penalty needed, we still make more money'. So why not apply the same to complete->infinite?
dburdick:
The question of mainenance  is not part of the issue I raised. I'm comparing upgrading to v7inf directly, without maintenance, to upgrading to v7complete and then to v7infinite without maintenance.
The second route should be possible and not significantly more expensive.
I am not asking for a better deal than existing v7i owners have, just a similar one.
I hope you are right that they will provide some solution to the problem in the near future - maybe opinions in this thread will help
janl:
Thank you for the info about photoshop, I'm glad even this presedece for 'no upgrade path'  doesnt exist.  And thanks for your info about not upgrading at all becuase of the 'no upgrade path' situation. Helps me show my point to e-on.
**

**

Quote - There is an upgrade path from Elements to PS.

I stand corrected. I looked a while back and did not see this. Perhaps they too had a similar discussion. Thanks for posting.

Between the Upgrade Problems & the Pricing Problems, I start to wonder how many people work at e-on... ?   And did most of e-on's effort go into the pricelist...?

This pricelist: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/buy/?page=2 seems wrong in more than 1 way.

I am working with Vue 7xStream at the office and have fallen in love with it.

Up until now working with the PLE at home has been fine. I could experiment, learn things and be OK with the fact that one can not use the files on any other computer and has the horrible watermark.

But the time has come where I want more :-)

Now I want to buy a "real" version for home use. I want to do hobby fun stuff AND also prepare stuff for the office while I am keeping the five rendercowfarm busy there and be able to use these files once I get back to work.

The missing upgrade path, where I could start with a smaller version and in time upgrade all the way up to the final version, is making me hesitate. I don't want to be stuck with a "smaller" and - in the end - unsatisfying Vue (esp since I know what the grown up Vue can do from working with it at theoffice). But also its difficult for me to just let go of the full price for Vue Inf at once. Maybe it's just psychological but I would prefer to pay 100USD a month adding modules until I reach the final version. And, no, I wont go to a bank and ask for credit for buying Vue. I would do this for a car but not for a hobby software. I would just not buy the software.

I understand that the current pricing scheme is targeted for big commercial studios and I am all for e-On to milk their cow and make even better vues. Sercive Agreements with 24h bug fixing and this kind of stuff will be worth alot for companies depending on the software. But private home users like me dont need that. And in this area I believe the distinction between home and business should be drawn. Not between "small" and "big" version of Vue.

That's my two cents

Quote - > Quote - There is an upgrade path from Elements to PS.

I stand corrected. I looked a while back and did not see this. Perhaps they too had a similar discussion. Thanks for posting.

I don't think any discussions have taken place. I had the very first version of Elements (I have forgotten its exact name now) several years ago and looked at this upgrade path to the then current full version of Photoshop.

I will be most unhappy if e-on locks out users from upgrading to Infinite. In the current economic climate this seems like suicide. I hope this is not the last version of Vue! :(

Art Pearl, can you or anybody else explain to me why you would want to upgrade to Infinite from Complete?  The only differences I see in the 2 products is that Infinite has a few more trees, multi-pass (which I never use), some high end animation features (which I never use) and the ability to author VuePython scripts (which is the only reason I got Inifnite).  Is there really enough of a difference to warrant spending some $400 ish on the move from Complete to Infinite?  I'm just asking.  I still think that e-on will provide a promotional-oriented path for an upgrade but I seriously doubt that many Complete users will take advantage of this.  I could be wrong, but given that the practical functional delta is so small, unless you are professional, I don't really see an avalanche of demand for this other than the psychological comfort of having it available.

 Dave,

The only 'killer' feature missing, IMO, is the bake to polygons-- but I don't even use that any more as the primitive renders are really fast and MUCH more accurate for metablobs.

dburdick, do SkinVue and other python scripts work with Complete? I could not work that out from the comparison chart when it first came out. On the product page for SkinVue it says Vue 7 Infinite is required and it does not mention Complete.

Dave,
I agree -at the moment there are not enough extra features in inf compared to complete to justify the extra money. However, things may change in the near or farther future.  I am not sure if it is of general interest but these are the feature I might want:

-Control procedural terrain altitudes based on relationships with other objects   
-The altitude of procedural terrains can be dynamically affected by other objects    
-User definable geometry anti-aliasing    Up to 1024 rays/pixel   (well, more than 64)
-Control materials based on the properties of other objects
-Animation features
-Change interface colors/size of text (so I can see easier)
-Ability to reorganize the view panes
-Python scripting
-Python console for direct input of Python commands
-Python functions to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances
-Macro recording and playback to automate repetitive tasks

Some of these I would use right now(eg interface color), some I would use when I get more proficient (the procedural terrain and material control features), some I may want to use if I work a lot more with vue and need more efficiency (python, macro recording)

It is more a question of having options in the future than fixing something right now. Even if they claim inf is for pro's maybe I/others would like to turn pro? 
Also worrying, as was mentioned already, what will happen when v8 arrives ? will the gap in features grow? will it be possible to change tracks then?

( I would also like to know when skinvue for v7 complete?)

Hi  Pnina,

Saw your post and thought I'd comment on some of these features. I think this might be helpful for others as well.

Quote - -Control procedural terrain altitudes based on relationships with other objects    
-The altitude of procedural terrains can be dynamically affected by other objects

These two are currently new features for Vue 7 Infinite. I'm actually not sure how they might be used, but if I were really interested in creating stunning terrains, I would certainly look into GeoControl. Certainly these two features, at this stage, are not missed, as I know of no one who is actively using them.

Quote - -User definable geometry anti-aliasing    Up to 1024 rays/pixel   (well, more than 64)

This has been discussed on another forum. The general consensus is one would never use 64 rays/pixel in a render, much less 1024 rays/pixel. For the record, Ultra mode renders with a maximum of 28 rays/pixel. I don't think I've ever heard anyone rendering higher than that-- and if they did, the render would take forever. I typically max out around 12 for my print read renders.

Quote - -Control materials based on the properties of other objects

Another brand new highly specialized node which I have never heard used before. Perhaps Dave can lend perspective to this.

Quote - -Animation features

Which ones?

Quote - -Change interface colors/size of text (so I can see easier)

I agree, this is pretty good-- and IMO should be in Complete. That said, when I use Complete, I find it easier to use (for my eyes) than Infinite. Maybe it's just me.

Quote - -Ability to reorganize the view panes

I personally have never had the need. This does not mean others don't, it's just never came up for me before-- and I do a lot of modeling in Vue.

Quote - -Python scripting
-Python console for direct input of Python commands
-Python functions to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances

Complete can and will run Python scripts, as will soon the whole Vue line. They need to be first compiled-- which I personally object to. The Python console is used mostly for debugging existing scripts when authoring them. I hope to have my own VueTools available for Complete soon. I believe Dave is currently working with e-on to also have his SkinVue product as well.

Perhaps the only reason to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances via Python, is if you CAN program in Python-- which is certainly not for non-programmers.

Quote - -Macro recording and playback to automate repetitive tasks

An interesting feature, but certainly not one which gets a lot of attention. In fact, other than Mark (Monsoon)'s playing around with this feature, I don't know of anyone else who is actually using it. Certainly, not in any of the many Vue forums I pay attention to.

Hope this helps.

Best, Chipp

Quote - dburdick, do SkinVue and other python scripts work with Complete? I could not work that out from the comparison chart when it first came out. On the product page for SkinVue it says Vue 7 Infinite is required and it does not mention Complete.

Eventually, all Python scripts will be able to be run on all Vue platforms.  I think e-on is just finalizing the way this will work on the Artist series platforms.  So yes, SkinVue and other Python Scripts such Vue Tools, etc will all run on Complete and every other Artist product.  The only reason I got Infinite was to have the ability to author Python scripts.  Otherwise, I  probably would have opted for Complete since I don't use any of the high-end animation features or multi-pass.  I have only a small 2 computer render farm (3 when I can get my laptop running).

Quote - Dave,
I agree -at the moment there are not enough extra features in inf compared to complete to justify the extra money. However, things may change in the near or farther future.  I am not sure if it is of general interest but these are the feature I might want:

-Control procedural terrain altitudes based on relationships with other objects   
-The altitude of procedural terrains can be dynamically affected by other objects    
-User definable geometry anti-aliasing    Up to 1024 rays/pixel   (well, more than 64)
-Control materials based on the properties of other objects
-Animation features
-Change interface colors/size of text (so I can see easier)
-Ability to reorganize the view panes
-Python scripting
-Python console for direct input of Python commands
-Python functions to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances
-Macro recording and playback to automate repetitive tasks

Some of these I would use right now(eg interface color), some I would use when I get more proficient (the procedural terrain and material control features), some I may want to use if I work a lot more with vue and need more efficiency (python, macro recording)

It is more a question of having options in the future than fixing something right now. Even if they claim inf is for pro's maybe I/others would like to turn pro? 
Also worrying, as was mentioned already, what will happen when v8 arrives ? will the gap in features grow? will it be possible to change tracks then?

( I would also like to know when skinvue for v7 complete?)

Yes, I can see the now the concern about the 2 products - Complete and Infinite drifting further apart in the future with respect to functionality.  Hopefully, this won't be the case.  Given E-on's track record, I'm not too worried about this.  On the Macro recording stuff for Infinite, you shouldn't be concerned about this as it is next to worthless for anything.  I've yet to to be able to get it to work and frankly, I don't see any case where this might be useful.  If anyone can show me an example of how Macro programming can be useful in Infinite, please share.  The Interface colors issue should be a part of the Artist line although I personally could care less what the colors of the UI are as long as they aren't some hideous florecent colors.

 I sidegraded from 6 Inf to Complete because a) it was much cheaper and b) the feature set contains pretty much everything I need (now). However, this may well change in the future. You only have to look back at Vue 6 to see how huge the differences can be and that can come from just one feature. Ecosystems in 6 Infinite and Pro Studio were two very different beasts, with the ability to paint them being a real deal breaker. If the situation should again arise, where the Infinite line has something that is vastly superior to the Artist line, then yes, I would see the need to upgrade but as things currently stand, I would be unable to do so.

I have submitted my ticket reply to e-on with quotes from this thread. I'm not posting here the whole thing becuase its a bit long but I've asked them to make the thread public so I dont have to keep up with the 'cut&paste'.
In any case, I'll update this thread with their response one way or another.

By the way, I looked more carefully at their 'best offer' of a $400 voucher I mentioned above. It said
"We offered you to return your copy of Complete and get a $400 discount on Infinite."

So from that it seems you CAN NOT keep v7complete in addition to v7 infinite. It is the same as an upgrade, you only have ONE v7 version when this is completed. So, as I said if you upgrade v6inf->v7inf you pay $400. If you upgrade v6inf->v7comp->v7inf you pay $600. Not a serious suggestion.
Chipp and Dave:
Thank you both for sharing your experience with the additional features. This is indeed helpful.
It's slightly disappointing that the features I considered most intriguing you find 'not needed' or 'useless'... I admit I dont do any animations at all so I certainly dont need the fancier features.
(In fact I wish animations was an optional module, and I wouldnt have bought it). But I might want to do animations at some point.
-Terrain control - obviousely I dont know how useful I would find it till I try. I cant use geocontrol - no version available for macs. In any case, vue is supposed to provide 'nature solutions', descent tools for creating terrain should be a central goal for e-on. I shouldnt need another program for that.
-Anti aliasing. You're probably right, I never did a systematic study of how much aa is needed, but I thinkI encountered cases I needed  more than 12. What do you set the quality slider to ?
-material control - I like the function editor very much and I'm sure I havnt made full use even of what's in v6, but I think I would like this new feature. It comes under the 'strive to do better and harder things' category.
-interface & view panes: these are features I would have sworn I dont need. One color scheme/arrangemnet is quite enough, but why would they have to chose a bad one:)
The FE has very low contrast particularly for parts which arnt selected. The little parameter lines at the side of nodes are virtualy invisible to me, even when I hover over them. Really annoying.
-Python scripting: it is already on my list of things I really should learn. I was a programmer in my 'professional' life so it should be that hard for me to learn, just not enough time in the day.
-macro recording: it is most disappointing that you find it useless. Maybe I'm particularly dumb, but I always have to do things more than once. Sometimes due to crashes sometimes becuase I changed my mind about some aspect. I used to work with a molecular graphics program which wrote a log of your operations. This log was editable and you could just rerun it after omitting/changing the parts you wanted. I miss this ability - I was hopping this is going in the right direction.
None of those justify an extra $500, that's for sure.

Thanks again to all who contributed to this thread so far!

Quote - Eventually, all Python scripts will be able to be run on all Vue platforms.  I think e-on is just finalizing the way this will work on the Artist series platforms.  So yes, SkinVue and other Python Scripts such Vue Tools, etc will all run on Complete and every other Artist product.  The only reason I got Infinite was to have the ability to author Python scripts.  Otherwise, I  probably would have opted for Complete since I don't use any of the high-end animation features or multi-pass.  I have only a small 2 computer render farm (3 when I can get my laptop running).

Thank you for your reply, Dave but does this mean the present SkinVue7 will work with Complete as it is now or do we need to wait for a different version of SkinVue for Vue Complete or wait for Complete to be updated with Python support? I am sorry if I am being dense but these new versions confuse me.

Perhaps the difference between Complete and Infinite is not too great at the moment for the average user but I am still worried that this gap will become greater with version 8 and I will be left with no way to upgrade if I go with the Complete version. I guess my customer confidence is rather shaky with the present actions of E-on and it is for this reason I am in no hurry to upgrade from V6 Infinite.

Quote - > Quote - Eventually, all Python scripts will be able to be run on all Vue platforms.  I think e-on is just finalizing the way this will work on the Artist series platforms.  So yes, SkinVue and other Python Scripts such Vue Tools, etc will all run on Complete and every other Artist product.  The only reason I got Infinite was to have the ability to author Python scripts.  Otherwise, I  probably would have opted for Complete since I don't use any of the high-end animation features or multi-pass.  I have only a small 2 computer render farm (3 when I can get my laptop running).

Thank you for your reply, Dave but does this mean the present SkinVue7 will work with Complete as it is now or do we need to wait for a different version of SkinVue for Vue Complete or wait for Complete to be updated with Python support? I am sorry if I am being dense but these new versions confuse me.

Perhaps the difference between Complete and Infinite is not too great at the moment for the average user but I am still worried that this gap will become greater with version 8 and I will be left with no way to upgrade if I go with the Complete version. I guess my customer confidence is rather shaky with the present actions of E-on and it is for this reason I am in no hurry to upgrade from V6 Infinite.

On the SkinVue question, it's the exact same product that runs on Pioneer thru xStream.  The only difference is that for the Artist products, you use a run-only version of the script that will run with the run-only version of VuePython for the artist products.  The functionality is identical.  The only reason for having two SKinVue products - one for Artist and one for Infinite/xStream is how the Python code is compiled.  The user will see no difference at all. 

Just to finish this up - this is the result of my effort:
A day after sending them my last message with quotes from this threads I got a reply. They didnt refer to my request to make the ticket public so I'll cut& paste again their message and my reply.
I wanted to know if their suggestion is general so I asked what they think I should post in this thread. I have got no answer to that.
Draw your own conclusions.

Hi Pnina,

That's correct, if you want to do that, it would indeed cost you $200 more to go from
Complete to Infinite than buying Infinite directly. Likewise, it costs over $800 if you go from
Pioneer to Complete adding all the modules one by one

You are free to sell your copy of Complete to someone else for more than $400 if you like.
We're just offering to "buy it back" at $400 if you want to get Infinite.

BTW, the license of Infinite you get is a full license, it's not an upgrade! If we "buy back" your copy of Complete, you cannot keep it - just like if you were selling it to someone else.

We understand this is a big concern for you. Feel free to contact us again the day you want to move to Infinite and we will work something out for you.

Best regards.
Selena Porter

Selina,
Thank you for offering to sort it out for me when the day comes that I want to upgrade from complete to infinity. (obviousely I'm assuming that will be better than your current offer of a $400 voucher) .As I was also concerned how it will work when version(s) 7.5 or 8 come out I will assume your offer to sort it out for me will cover that too.
So for myself there is nothing more I can do but trust you will be fair and reasonable when the time comes. (I have no reason to assume otherwise).
However as you havnt really answered in general any of the questions I and other users raised in the renderosity forum, I wonder what you think I should say now. I promised to come back with information about your response. I can and probably will just cut &paste your reply, but if you have a more general message I could convey that.
Thanks
Pnina

 I honestly don't think they are interested. They are obviously intent on completely separating the "Artist" and "Professional" lines, probably for paid support / subscription purposes and upsetting a few users in the process is just a minor inconvenience. My journey has taken me from Vue 5 esprit, through Vue 6 Infinite to Vue 7 Complete, which in total has cost me around $1500 - The chances of me paying another $500 to upgrade to 7 Infinite are exactly the same as me having a major lottery win.

 It appears totally illogical to push Complete purchasers into a cul-de-sac with no reasonable option to move upto Infinite/Xstream..........why not just ask the difference in price plus a labour cost (e.g. difference plus $50 as previously suggested).

If e-on wish to diverge their products & service into two distinct categories, i.e. 'general-public' / 'professional-studios', I believe that it would be a wise business decision. Unfortunately the current situation does not strike me as the correct way of achieving this.

In my opinion there should be a logical, hierarchical range of products (Complete & Infinite are too similar) where there is a logical upgrade/sidegrade price between all products (perhaps limited to a two generation 'lifespan') which avoids any potential for clients feeling marginalised.

All individuals and businesses can then upgrade/sidegrade as they wish and when they wish (within the two life-spans limit, i.e. an upgrade price from Infinite 6 to Infinite 8, but not from Inf 5 to Inf 8....) according to their desires & circumstances (which can change very quickly!).

I would suggest to e-on that they are then at ease to focus their software subscription services to the professional studios: A yearly fee for each Infinite or Xstream seat entitles you to quick always-available support, and all upgrades/updates released during the year automatically provided as part of the subscription. This subscription model appears to works well for my provider of architectural software (ArchiCAD).

P.S. Just my opinion, but I find Vue Infinite reasonably priced for the complexity of the programme - the cost of ArchiCAD with the necessary additional software for it to better realise its potential is not far off 10x more expensive!

I think I have this right?

Vue 4 went professional with vue 4 professional.  Then vue 5  had professional and infinite.  Then vue professional died out only to be replaced with complete 2 versions later.

Seems very odd to say the least and a bit gimicky if you ask me.

 The way I originally read it and the reason I sidegraded, was that Complete was Infinite minus the features only needed by studios. However, now it seems that Complete has been positioned with Pro-Studio and Esprit in the Artistic line rather than with the professional line. Also, it does seem extremely confusing (and misleading) for e-on to use the Pro-Studio name for a product which is aimed at anything but Pro Studios and calling a product Complete, when it has numerous features removed. I hope they know what they are doing at e-on, because I certainly don't.

Well, if we wait on purchase the price will come down.  E-on can't be making money in this economy and is probably in the red. 

The price of Poser 7 right now is $99.  I paid way more than that.  Let's see what happens with vue.
I'll wait for the sale if this is the way it's going to be.  Consumers in the end have the Real Power ie. money. 

E-on is crazy with these prices, upgrades, sidegrades, and strange named modules.

It is confusing and expensive to say the least.

I upgraded to professional to infinite only to downgrade to complete so I could be stuck with no upgrade/sidegrade options.  That is ridiculous.

Coupled and compounded with paying for incremental updates to .5 etc. and it's just plain wrong.

OK ... maybe time for me to share a few more thoughts, as this issue is one I am following keenly.

I have Vue 6I but have not upgraded to any package as yet. There has been a lot of helpful discussion on a number of points. For example, which features would we REALLY miss by having Complete instead of Infinite? I have to say, now that multiple undos is available in all Complete versions, not a great deal. I like to customise my working environment heavily, but for $300 could live with something less flexible. Some extra plants is nice, but not critical.

So why not just upgrade to Complete and be done? My main reason, after much deliberation, has not turned out to be mainly about the feature sets of Complete vs. Infinite, but more about the trajectory of the Vue product line, as others have commented too.

If we are sensing E-on's desire to separate the Artist and Professional products and to reposition Vue in the Professional market, it may not be long before the Pro level tools start getting better quality development, debugging, support, and so on. It may even be that some new features, which turn out to be vital, may not make it into the Artist line at all. This may be more likely for a relatively small company like Vue, which is getting some linkups with the movie industry. The support packages are going to need staff time to deliver, so less time for the users who have forked out for cheaper packages.

I do not want to be stuck on carriage 4, if the front section of the train is uncoupled at carriage 3. We might not notice for a while, but sooner or later, the Pro section of the train will start to pull away and the gap will get wider.

So it isn't mainly about features for me any more - it's about future proofing. Vue is my main package at the moment (though I hope to afford XSI one day) and I want to be best positioned to ave the best version of it I can afford. Right now, I am without income, so have not upgraded into the Complete line, which is currently an upgrade dead end, frankly.

So I will not be upgrading for a while yet, unless I decide Vue 7I is a priority. Maybe the 7.5 price list will change my mind?

Anyways, that's my latest thoughts on this ongoing saga ... I hope e-on does offer an official Complete to Infinite path before too long.

Thanks
Richard

 Richard, FWIW, I agree entirely with your appraisal & sentiments.

Too late for me, I took the Complete route when it was first released, so I am tied into it now. I'm currently on disability so the $400 price tag for the upgrade to 7I was never going to happen and to be honest, I just see the price of Infinite spiraling upwards, further and further out of reach with each release. So with that in mind, I am relatively content with my copy of Complete.

 Here are the facts as currently known. There is an upgrade path for Complete 7 to Infinite 7

If you own Complete, then it costs you $895 - $400 (they'll pay you for Complete) to upgrade to Infinite. That's $495. For $495 you get 90 more SolidGrowth plants (including new Hi Def plants), which if purchased alone would cost well over $495.

plus you get all the upgrades from Complete to Infinite as listed at:

http://tinyurl.com/bqb4sz

Now, before you all complain about the lost money upgrading from Vue 6 Infinite to Complete then on to Vue 7 Infinite, remember, e-on did give folks a 30-day money back grace period before the PLE came out. Besides, how can a company actually start providing 'upgrade, then another upgrade' price lists?

So, e-on is specific about their two product lines- Pro and Artist. And, they give you a way to move from Artist to Pro as well. If it's not to your liking, then don't participate. That's the beauty of the system, you can vote with your wallet and/or your feet.

I just looked through the differences between Complete and Infinite and although the list is long, it contains little of interest to me. Most of it is made up of the features I never used (or needed) with 6 Infinite and the only ones of interest are those that only appear with the 7.4 update, which was not around when I purchased Complete. So when it comes down to it - do I really want to spend $500 that I can't afford, on features that I don't need?

As things stand now, I am glad I escaped the money pit that Infinite is fast becoming and while I thoroughly enjoyed my time with Infinite, its just become too expensive for this hobbyist. So by sidegrading to Complete, I guess I have already voted with my wallet. I just hope I don't have to vote with my feet when the next round of upgrades begin.

 I'm not sure what you mean about the 7.4 update, but all bug fixes for Vue 7 Infinite will propogate down to Complete in time.

I agree with you, Vue 7 Complete has 95% of what I need. I do program in Python though and need Infinite for that.

Quote -  I'm not sure what you mean about the 7.4 update, but all bug fixes for Vue 7 Infinite will propogate down to Complete in time.

I agree with you, Vue 7 Complete has 95% of what I need. I do program in Python though and need Infinite for that.

Check out the Comparison page (link), and look down - there are many references to "With 7.4 Update" ... which includes (Infinite only unless stated):

• Multi-processor EcoSystem population
• Paint material distributions at the surface of terrains (both)
• Import, view and edit distribution maps in the Terrain Editor (both)
• Terrain effects optionally affect material distribution map (both)
• Multi-processor procedural terrain construction
• Hide objects from render and disable lights by clicking their icon in World Browser
• Multi-processor panoramic rendering
• Sky preview with clouds
• Realistic MetaCloud preview
• Dynamic plant display optimization
• Support for Sketchup 7 (Win 32 only)

I noticed it in passing, but sounds like a few new things are going to appear before 7.5.

Well, I really dont have anything new to add, I expressed my opinion and quoted e-on's response', I thought that will be it.  But it's too annoying to see the thread go backwards...
Chipp,

Quote -  Here are the facts as currently known. There is an upgrade path for Complete 7 to Infinite 7

If you own Complete, then it costs you $895 - $400 (they'll pay you for Complete) to upgrade to Infinite. That's $495. For $495 you get 90 more SolidGrowth plants (including new Hi Def plants), which if purchased alone would cost well over $495.

plus you get all the upgrades from Complete to Infinite as listed at:
 

http://tinyurl.com/bqb4sz

You're explaining why infinite is better than complete, and why it is worth more money. This isnt the point. The question is why is infinite worth more if you first purchased complete rather than going directly from v6inf to v7inf.  You dont get more features/content by going through complete so you shouldnt pay  that much more, only the 15% 'restocking' perhaps.

Quote -
Now, before you all complain about the lost money upgrading from Vue 6 Infinite to Complete then on to Vue 7 Infinite, remember, e-on did give folks a 30-day money back grace period before the PLE came out.

I havnt committed a crime or made a mistake, for which the grace period would be relevant. I'm talking about going up in stages, complete was OK for me when I bought it. I read the comparison list and counted my money. No regrets, no second thoughts. What I was enquiring about is  a way to move complete->infinite at a later stage(not time limited) if they added new features to inf but not comp (as they seem to be doing already  in 7.4) or if my circumstances change - I have more money or I now need the additional features. I dont want it for free or for less than the direct route, just not a ridiculously  exorbitant price.
This works for esprit->complete (with no time limit and  no extra costs at all for going the indirect way) why shouldnt it work for complete->inf?
(BTW- there still isnt a PLE version of complete, even though I was advised to wait for it as it will be 'out a few days after the Inf PLE')

Quote -
  Besides, how can a company actually start providing 'upgrade, then another upgrade' price lists?

The same way they provide a list for esprit-> complete. I cant see where the problem is?

Quote -
So, e-on is specific about their two product lines- Pro and Artist. And, they give you a way to move from Artist to Pro as well. If it's not to your liking, then don't participate. That's the beauty of the system, you can vote with your wallet and/or your feet.

Sorry, are you saying I should buy it or not buy it but keep quiet? 'Like it or lump it'? Really? Why? If unsatisfied customers or potential customers keep quiet how is e-on going to know what they find objectionable? Of course I use  my wallet to vote with. But it isnt mutually exclusive - I'll buy what I want AND I'll let e-on, and every one else interested, know what my opinion is. Of course e-on can chose to ignore me, my opinions and my wallet...
I did not start the thread in order to bad mouth e-on. I wanted to gather feedback from other people as backup to my conversation with e-on. If people still have something to say publicly why shouldnt they?

I realize vue gives you and many users (including me, actually) a lot of pleasure.  Maybe you are as happy as could be with the product and the company. I did not intend to offend any of you or convince you to feel otherwise, and I said in the OP happy users with inf do not have to participate. But neither vue or e-on are holly cows, one can criticize them without being considered a stoning-worthy heretic, no?

 C'mon  Pnina,

You're beating a dead horse. You've explained your position here over and over. My point is THERE IS AN UPGRADE PATH. The fact you don't like it is fine. And obvious. 

As I said, the upgrade from Complete to Infinite contains not only other features, but also a plethora of solidgrowth plants, which in themselves are worth the difference. I am sorry the upgrade isn't cheap enough for you to find value in. It is of course a personal decision which everyone must make themself.

You certainly have a right to not be happy, but the facts are-- it is what it is. I doubt complaining about the same thing over and over will have any effect-- other than put you in company with regular discontents who are routinely ignored.

Chipp,

I have nothing new to add. I suspect you dont either. So perhaps we should both leave it alone now? If anyone else has something additional/new to say they should feel free and welcome to do so.
I had a practical purpose in posting this thread and it surved the purpose for me as well as being informative for other people. If you think that is the same as  beeing  a chronic complainer - not much I can do about it, ignore me if you wish.

Quote - You're explaining why infinite is better than complete, and why it is worth more money. This isnt the point. The question is why is infinite worth more if you first purchased complete rather than going directly from v6inf to v7inf. You dont get more features/content by going through complete so you shouldnt pay that much more, only the 15% 'restocking' perhaps.

That is an opinion, not a statement of fact. Just as if one purchased a car, drove it off the lot, then wanted to trade it in 6 months later, one could also be of the opionion they shouldn't have to pay more than a 15% restocking fee, but the facts are much different.

The facts are there are now two distinct Vue product lines. One for Artists and one for Professionals. This is how e-on has decided to market their products.

They want to provide an affordable product line for artists, which is in line with their existing pricing models. And they now want to provide a professional suite of products which have a support subscription model including twice a year feature updates (hence 7.5). This is no surprise as it is in line with how the professional 3D market currently works. e-on understands while the margins for professional marketed products are larger, so is the expectation for service and robustness, thus the focus on support packages.

They are also of the opinion, if a professional needs the added features of Infinite or xStream, they will pay for them. Same is true for Adobe, Autodesk and many other high-end professional applications who have products priced in the over $1K range.

Your original posts were informative and did lead to the agreement from e-on to consider allowing Complete users to upgrade to Infinite for $495. That was helpful and clear. 

Izaro posted earlier:

Quote - In my opinion there should be a logical, hierarchical range of products (Complete & Infinite are too similar)

and Richard (craftycurate) also posted:

Quote - I hope e-on does offer an official Complete to Infinite path before too long.

to which I responded in the post you took so much offense to. My point was to point out both e-on's current product path lines as well as the fact they do have an upgrade policy. There was no need for your harsh rebuttal as I was only offering information and statement of facts.

I apologize for the perceived harshness, non was intended, but not for the content. I will leave the rest to the wise judgment of the readers.

I feel very uneasy about what e-on have done and do not agree that it is in line with what other companies are doing.

Firstly, to upgrade from my V6I to V7I will cost me almost twice as much as it did to upgrade from V5I to V6I. The only option is to upgrade to Complete and accept a 'downgrade' in certain areas and be stuck with this line for ever more unless I pay a further 'fine' to upgrade to Infinite.

Secondly, they seem to provide no option to upgrade from earlier versions of Vue so if I skipped this upgrade then it looks like I will have to purchase Vue from scratch if I wanted Vue 8. Adobe has been mentioned a lot in this thread but Adobe allows people to upgrade to CS4 from CS3, CS2 or CS for EXACTLY the same price. They even have special upgrade offers for people using PhotoShop Elements 7.0, 6.0, 5.0, or 4.0 (3.0 for Mac) all at EXACTLY the same price.

E-on have got us. We either chose a way to upgrade before the next version comes out or we are out of the loop forever. I do not think this is good ethics for software in this price range.

It would have seemed to be much better to me to be able to upgrade to V7I for about the same price as I did last time and keep all of the features I have in V6I plus the new features to make the upgrade worthwhile. They should have then named their professional versions something else and charged any amount they wanted. However, I cannot agree with the way they are doing things at the moment and is the reason I feel very unhappy about even upgrading from V6I.

Quote - E-on have got us. We either chose a way to upgrade before the next version comes out or we are out of the loop forever. I do not think this is good ethics for software in this price range.

I did not know this. Can you please point me to this fact as posted at e-on or in a newsletter? 

Can you point me to a price list which includes the price to upgrade from V5I to V7I?

I can show you one for upgrades to Photoshop on the Adobe site.

I asked a simple question, which you did not answer. You stated,

Quote - We either chose a way to upgrade before the next version comes out or we are out of the loop forever.

I assume by your lack of response, you have no such knowledge, though you state as fact an apparent unknown. 

That said, it's clear from this thread, and Pninia's timely questioning of e-on's representatives, e-on is approachable regarding upgrades. Even though no upgrade price is posted, I suggest you take it up directly with an e-on sales rep, and perhaps, with the right tone of voice, e-on may accomodate your request.

Quote - It would have seemed to be much better to me to be able to upgrade to V7I for about the same price as I did last time and keep all of the features I have in V6I plus the new features to make the upgrade worthwhile. They should have then named their professional versions something else and charged any amount they wanted.

These are very good points. I agree.

Aghhh, I have lost two versions of this already!

Briefly, Chipp you seem to be very defensive.

You quoted me out of context. I said:

"they seem to provide no option to upgrade from earlier versions of Vue"

Adobe state the options clearly on their website. It is possible to upgrade from 3 or 4 previous versions at exactly the same price as upgrading from the previous version of Photoshop and it was you, by the way, that compared Vue to Photoshop in the first place!

I would like this option with Vue as I am not happy with the way things have been done, but it is not mentioned on their website and thus, it seems that it is not encouraged. I wondered if you had seen it on their website and could point me to it but obviously  you cannot so I have already written to E-on asking them about it.

Quote - Even though no upgrade price is posted, I suggest you take it up directly with an e-on sales rep, and perhaps, with the right tone of voice, e-on may accomodate your request.

I was not aware there was anything wrong with my tone of voice and I am sorry if I have come across that way. I enjoy Vue and wish to continue with it but I am voicing my concerns in this thread as this is what this thread is for and I agree that there should be an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite. I guess everyone has an attitude problem if they are unhappy with the way e-on has done things. shrug

Quote - Briefly, Chipp you seem to be very defensive.

I was not aware there was anything wrong with my tone of voice and I am sorry if I have come across that way. I enjoy Vue and wish to continue with it but I am voicing my concerns in this thread as this is what this thread is for and I agree that there should be an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite. I guess everyone has an attitude problem if they are unhappy with the way e-on has done things. shrug

Yes, I suppose it does appear I am being overly defensive. Sorry about that. And just so we're on the same page: There is an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite.

Quote - And just so we're on the same page: There is an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite.

There appears to be an unofficial route to upgrade at the moment but this upgrade route should be on their website. Who knows whether this upgrade path will be honoured in 6 months or a years time? The way things are at the moment, with unwritten agreements, just seems very wrong to me. Developing and maintaining customer confidence should be one of their priorities too.

As for lack of upgrade options from earlier versions, e-on don't appear to be alone in this respect. I was a Carrara 5 pro user and missed the 6 pro upgrade because it never seemed to become stable but now that 7 pro has been released there appears no route to upgrade from 5 pro, so I am, as you say, out of the loop.

I am glad that there is "currently" an un-publicised upgrade route from Complete to Infinite for those who wish (or can afford) to take it but the question is, how long will it be there? Currently, I don't have any need to upgrade as the extra features that Infinite provides are not ones that I require, plus the price is far more than I can currently afford (on disability at the moment) but should I need to upgrade to the Infinite (professional) platform at a later date, will there still be a route available? This has been my worry all along, that they seem to be intent on removing the upgrade route from the Artist line to the Professional line, which I think is wrong and until they provide an official, published upgrade path, nothing has changed - that worry still remains.

Attached Link: Digital Arts

I received a reply from E-on about the upgrade.

V7I costs £648.16 

V7I upgrade from V6I is £286.06

V7I upgrade from V5I is £503.32.
This is an special offer price which expired at the beginning of February but they are still willing to sell it for this price. 

Upgrade from V5I to V6I to V7I would cost me £466.28 (This is the exchange rate at todays rate but in effect would be much less as the pound was much stronger when I actually purchased V6I)

Therefore, if I upgraded from V5I to V7I it would cost me more than it would to upgrade from V5I to V6I to V7I even with the special price.

Quote - Rids, regarding Carrara, I am sure I saw in the Daz forums that it is possible to upgrade to Carrara 7 from 5 for the same price as upgrading from 6. However, if you want Carrara 6 Pro it is available free on the cover of Digital Arts Magazine this month.

I think it is a full version, valid as a starting point to upgrade to 7 / 7 Pro. In other words, by waiting, DAZ granted people a free upgrade step... this is caring about customers.

Bye!!!

P.S.: self imposed posting ban suspended ONLY to provide a generally interesting notice to everybody tired by E-On behaviour

Signed: a Carrara 7 newbie :sneaky: