Quote - Well, I do think education has something to do with knowledge. I have no degree, but work at the largest nuclear power station in the U.S. with instrumentation and controls. My work often involves PLCs (ladder logic programming, as well as computer control systems). I also worked in aerospace, materials research, and worked with analytical instrumentation. I worked with computers since the DEC PDP-11 LSI series, Modcomp, tape readers, drum memory, etc..

So do I get lambasted because I've been a science geek most of my life?

The integrated Macs are not so hot for the $$, but the Mac Pro is entirely different. It's a rendering monster, and is built with an aluminum chassis that is about twice as thick as the Chinese stuff sold all over the web. The keyboard is solid aluminum, but I don't like the feel of the keys. The mouse is...a stupid, but "cool" design. Overall, the computer is the best built PC box I've ever owned. And, the Mac OS is much nicer, albiet, lacking a 64-bit version of Vue. Using Bootcamp to run a Vue sesion is no big deal for me.

Precisely and well stated. There are only a couple of people that are making this personal and refusing to accept known facts and read the actual statements made by others like myself. I have been misquoted, my education questioned, personally insulted and even baited into a flame war.

I think me and you both agree, as I said here many times, it is of no concern or matter to me personally what you use. But known facts are just that and you can't make up your own conjecture to fit your personal views.

This is still a valuable thread as I have been thanked by several members here via PM for taking the time to give such detailed information. Again, all of this can be supported by educating yourself with publications/podcasts liike: Maximum PC, Mac World, Tekzilla, Toms Hardware, TWIT (This Week In Tech), Macbreak Weekly, etc.

Here is yet another supported fact outside Mac only publications on market share. Windows losing market share to Mac and Linux. www.tgdaily.com/content/view/41291/140/

Happy rendering.

Actually, there are/were more than two participants -- and of course your debate would provide a valuable insight into setting a ruined (varying point of view) straight -- no doubt.

Say...I know you!  You're the PC lobbyist the original poster hired to set all the others back on the right and virtuous track -- towards the Windows world.

Oh, the road to ruin is so cluttered with the remains of frustrated would be emperors!

Adios...

Quote - You two debating over Mac vs PC are ruining what could be potentially a very interesting and useful thread....

Since a Mac is a Mac and a PC can vary in it's hardware configuration from computer to computer as there is no single PC company or builder as there is in the Mac world...let's just drop Macs from this thread altogether... And let's get back to providing the information the original poster asked for...

Cheers

Ken

Trying not to clutter anymore, but I thought you deserved a reply.

I understand your view point but have received several PMs supporting me and find it to be educational. One thing I have done if you follow my posts is provide known facts sighting multiple publications and podcasts. For me, it is not about Mac vs PC but rather people wanting to ignore known valid sources of technical information. This makes it difficult because just a few select people want to make conjecture based on their own personal views. What this leads to is someone reading this thread getting wrong facts and data which may lead them to believe those are true if no one challenges them factually.

The other thing is I have not made personal attacks upon others education, personal attacks, etc. unlike a select few here that are ruining it with those comments making it personal.

As I said, I have gotten several positeve feedback on this via PM as most here know my professionalism. I have and will continue to help others if I can with anything I am capable of doing and confident in. That means both Windows and Mac alike.

Happy rendering.

Commonality  (easy to get, easy to ge tparts or repairs, nearest MAC shop is 30 odd miles away, dozens of PC shops in between, here)

lower price (you do NOT see local Tescos bulk pricing MACs! As an example.)

Can't play most games on MACs. WHy have consoles when most games are better on PCs?

Many apps don't come for MACs, and why have ot go through hoops AND buy WIndows for the MAC to run them?

64 bit.

Etc So I stick with PCs, yes it's taken Microsnot years to get a decent OS, sigh, but MAC's aren't all that either, the Amiga was more than 10 years ahead of both of 'em 20 years ago!

If folk like MACs, good, everyone ot their own :) and competition keeps that bunch in Microsoft moving (however slowly).
But for the average person, MACs aren't all that, like it or not.
Less security threats , yeah tha'ts a good point, bar that...take your money and go see how easy it is ot get each, and what you get for your money, in the REAL world, NOT the world of computer specialists in the world's major cities!

So, think of Joe Public, guys, when you are fighting , 'cause they usually haven't got a CLUE  ;)

munches popcorn wahhcing the fight :p
 

Quote - "Well, I do think education has something to do with knowledge."

Yes, I agree. The key word is something, and as it is your own italic on that word I assume you agree on this.
I have seen highly educated people who are lousy IT professionals and people with no formal academic background who are five star IT experts. So, education has something to do with knowledge but, by itself, does not constitute an evidence that the person is correct in his/her opinions.
Knowledge should speak for itself. When a display of knowledge needs to be acompanied by a statement of "I have a background in xxxx" (replace "xxxx" by the field of expertise of your choice), then something is wrong. It probably means that the person is not very confident in his/her own opinions, and/or has doubts that his/her opinions will be valid by itself, and so needs to back it up with something. This immediately raises lots of doubts in my mind about the validity of whatever that person is saying.

But the heart of the matter of this thread is "perfect Vue computer". Things like statistics or aluminum cases are "fait divers", only partially relevant for this discussion. Until now, I have not seen my arguments pro-PC defeated. I do not claim to have the ultimate truth, nor even to have any truth at all. I just have arguments and I will very humbly bow to whoever proves my arguments are wrong, one by one. Let me repeat them once more (copy+paste from 2 or 3 posts ago):

• Not taking hope as a criteria, can Vue run on 64 bits in OS X? No. Can it run on 64 bits in Windows? Yes. Is this important for Vue? Yes! Comfortable memory space is fundamental for Vue.
• Does Vista have problems? Yes. Does Vue work great on Vista? Yes, as many people will testify (me included). So, does it matter if Vista has problems? No.
• Is OS X "better" than Windows? I don't know. Does it matter? No, because user can't see it, particularly if he wants to run Vue in 64 bits.
• Does OS X have more authoring and media tools? Yes. Does it matter for Vue? No.
• Is a Mac more elegant than a PC? Maybe. Is that relevant for Vue? No!
• Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price.
• Can a Mac run Windows? Yes. But if we run Windows+Vue on a Mac we actually ended up buying two operating systems: OS X (that we never use) and Windows. Does this sound like good business logic? No.

Hi Silverblade, nice to see you back! This is an interesting thread! :-)
Btw, I agree with your points as well.

And, 3DNeo, it's good that you reconsidered your decision of unsubscribing this thread. :-)

"Commonality..." Mediocrity.

"the average person,..."   I don't think that would be the average Vue user (see mediocrity above)?

"So I stick with PCs..." Like...flypaper? (Let's see, My Commodore CBM 80, Vic-20, C-64, Amiga 1000 and 2000, dozens of PCs -- many self-built, 2 Quad-cores, 4 PC laptops, and one Shuttle [presently building quad-core]). Damn me for voicing the excellent quality of one lone Mac! I should be ashamed of myself for not sticking, as if a Windows hood ornament, to a cheap steel box!

"Can't play most games on MACs. WHy have consoles when most games are better on PCs?" Game makers are leaving the PC market in droves -- to game consoles -- sorry (BTW, with a 35 second boot I can play my PC games).

"So, think of Joe Public, guys, when you are fighting.." Who's fighting, and who is this "Joe Public? (see "commonality", and "the average person"  above).

This lone Mac of mine will likely last me until many PC owners have either tossed their Windows PCs into the recycle bin, or through their window -- which ever comes first. In fact, I'm sure I will be one of them (hopefully, it will be the recycle bin).

Here is the unadorned, unvarnished truth. Before I purchased my 8-core Mac, I had tried to figure out a (1) Dell 8-core build (but it didn't have the more advanced Xeon, yet cost more), and (2) HP...same problem as the Dell. (3). So I went to Newegg and created a list of components. Alas, I could built a PC equal to the Mac Pro, at almost the same price! But then this mysterious logic hit me!  All these parts, put them together and cross my fingers, and then all those separate, individual component warranties to worry about, along with trouble shooting to verify just what might have failed. Bad idea! So, I got a new Mac Pro 8-core for ~ $2600.00.

It is the finest PC I've ever owned, and runs Windows better than any PC that I presently own!

Enough said, but now I know why graphics pros prefer Macs. Commonality, the average person, and Joe public can live in mediocrity all their lives as far as I'm concerned.

In HP there's now a promotion on the HP Pavillion Elite M9600t. By $1460 you can get a PC with the new i7 processor, 8GB RAM, 1GB RAM Nvidia GeForce 9800GT, Windows Home Premium 64bits,etc.

Now, compare that with the announced $3300 of a MacPro with less 2GB... (or even with the $2600 that LCBoliou says he spent). Even if the HP is marginally slower than the MacPro (which I don't know if it is), it sure is a lot more "bang for the buck". A lot more.

Quote - "Enough said, but now I know why graphics pros prefer Macs."

I'm just a hobbyist and I believe FCLittle, the OP, also is. So, thanks, LCBoliou, you just gave us another reason to not go to a Mac... it's for professionals! :-)
Anyway, joke aside, we're not talking about "graphics" in general, we're talking about Vue!! Please, focus! :-)

Rutra
hehe heyas ;)

LCBoliou
majority of Vue users are Joe Public, not pros, and E-On better remember that (regarding the utterly asinine price Vue has reached for it's more "complete", ha what irony!!, versions. Damn foolish of them to push Vue's price that high, sigh.)

Most folk are not computer experts. It takes folk time to learn about them, many folk don't want to learn that stuff, in fact why should they have to at all?! Ever asked yourself that?
All they (Joe Public) should need is just enough to deal with their computers, they want the "meat and potatoes", not digging the damn things up or slaughtering 'em! hehe

It's ridiculous really, that you have to spend so much hassle getting a good computer, setting it up right, spending so much money...bah, bloody stupid, no wonder many pople preffer consoles, phones and other systems for their games, browsing etc.

Someone may come along with a much better, cheaper system and blow the Mac and PC world's to hell and gone, and good thing too! Long as it runs Vue I'd be happy ;)

MACs used to dominate graphics for 2 reasons:
standardized colour system
Photoshop.
Not been that way for a while though.

"Mediocrity" ... hello, I've got news for you, Her Majesty the Queen, dictators, presidents and everyone else: we're all Human, we all have the same biological processes.
So elitism be damned, we all need to poo! :p

A computer is just a tool, nothing "Individual" about it, unless you have sat down and built one yourself from a Millenium Falcon toy, or some such (In which case, well bloody done, mate!).
It's what you DO with a tool that makes it individual, it's what you do in life that earns respect, not what computer you own, clothes you wear or any such like frippery.

I don't mind if folk love MACs, hey knock yerself out, if you're happy, great! :)

But until someone can knock Microsnot into the dustbin, which I wouldn't mind at all, AND gave us a free, stable, secure OS that will work with our apps....we're stuck.

Alas, like it or not, Microsnot set a standard around which a coherent system could evolve. Apple had a silly closed in monopoly that damn near wiped them out years ago, "exclusivity" = mass extinction at some point, as history teaches us :D

Today, what we all need, ALL  of us, is a free, stable, secure, fast, effcient OS, that works with MS products and that can evolve with hardware improvements.

It's a rip off that we have to pay for an OS, something which you simply cannot do without, and which the 2 monopolies have made a shambollick mess of, compared to the openess of the Linux crowd.
I don't use Linux, I want as little hassle as possible, and as much compatability as possible. Otherwise I'd be all over it like a rash! Linux does indeed show the way.

renders up a scene of a giant airship dropping hundreds of tons of poo on Microsoft and Apple HQs! :tt2:

So me, as an "individual", I don't like any of the monopolies, but I'll use what works and is cheap.
Yes I'm cheap, damn right I'm cheap!! Because I don't have much money, and what I do have I'll spend on Vue and content, rather than an extra £500 to £2000 on a MAC! :lol:
Man, £1400 for 64 bit Vista rig with 8 gigs was a PIA to pay, but, it is a huge improvement.

If Blender was like Vue, I'd be all over that, too. But it's about as much fun to use as covering yourself in chocolate and kicking your toe up a hungry hippopotamus's bum! :D

And now, for something completely different!

On a less silly note...have you or anyone else compared an Apple 8 core, versus a dual Xeon i7 for render speeds? :)

silverblade:

**I would not have thought someone like yourself would have made those two posts as written. They show lapses in known facts vs interjection of your personal biased views and even have hostility in some of them. It's even more confounding as we have talked before and you seem like someone that is trying to give to the community yet somehow has done what a select few have done and made personal conjecture vs known fact. No one has or can prove me wrong on my technical statements because everything I have said is at present date backed by many media sources which I have already sighted in prior posts above so I won't repeat. If others can back up any statements with known facts sighting long standing news media outlets then by all means use them when posting as I always read or listen to them because technology is constantly changing.

So, I will challenge you on your personal views on a point-by-point basis below.**

LCBoliou
majority of Vue users are Joe Public, not pros, and E-On better remember that (regarding the utterly asinine price Vue has reached for it's more "complete", ha what irony!!, versions. Damn foolish of them to push Vue's price that high, sigh.)

**Really? This coming from you sounds petty. Your use of colorful language aside, it serves as no purpose here. The goal of any company is to make money and prices will always rise. You have a rather hostile view to this company for someone wanting to use it. Setting their price to $1,000 for the Vue Infinite and about $600 more for "extreme" is not that unreasonable. They are aiming for a high-end market, not a cheaper Poser market. It takes money to put together a design team to come out with a new version, add features, fix bugs, etc. so without money there will be no Vue product at all. Also, compared to C4D, Maya and Max it is still within price.

As to the statement Vue users are Joe public not pros is something I think e-on may disagree with. Joe public as you say does not use 3D software and uses their computers for basic tasks.**

Most folk are not computer experts. It takes folk time to learn about them, many folk don't want to learn that stuff, in fact why should they have to at all?! Ever asked yourself that?
All they (Joe Public) should need is just enough to deal with their computers, they want the "meat and potatoes", not digging the damn things up or slaughtering 'em! hehe

The general computer users are not computer experts on that much I will agree. But saying "many folk don't want to learn that stuff, in fact why should they have to at all?" is something a lot of educated people would laugh at. They are not toasters and why they should need to is simply so you won't be ignorant of basic tasks of how computers are used in general. Also, it give your "Joe public" at least a very basic skill set in the work force as it is common place now that at least some skills with computers are required.

It's ridiculous really, that you have to spend so much hassle getting a good computer, setting it up right, spending so much money...bah, bloody stupid, no wonder many pople preffer consoles, phones and other systems for their games, browsing etc.

**There is no hassle if you have the proper knowledge to get you by. As to people preferring consoles to computers for games that market trend has been there for years. I grant you Microsoft has made a darn good console and is the leader in on-line gaming. Only now is Sony starting to catch up. In fact, the GUI to their 360 reminds me a lot of Apple and Sony reminds me a lot of Linux.

In terms of spending so much money that depends on what you are using it for. Computers have used Moore's Law combined with ecnomic inflation to net a typical cost of about $2000 for a typical system.

Of course you can avoid the headaches of setup and setting it up right if you buy a Mac Pro. :-)
**
Of course to solve the

Someone may come along with a much better, cheaper system and blow the Mac and PC world's to hell and gone, and good thing too! Long as it runs Vue I'd be happy ;)

Anything is possible but it will be some time if ever this happens because of how most are dug in and the vast majority of software for the Mac and PC. The best i would say is a Linux OS provided it had the support of all the developers and professionals.

MACs used to dominate graphics for 2 reasons:
standardized colour system
Photoshop.
Not been that way for a while though.

"Mediocrity" ... hello, I've got news for you, Her Majesty the Queen, dictators, presidents and everyone else: we're all Human, we all have the same biological processes.
So elitism be damned, we all need to poo! :p

A computer is just a tool, nothing "Individual" about it, unless you have sat down and built one yourself from a Millenium Falcon toy, or some such (In which case, well bloody done, mate!).

It's what you DO with a tool that makes it individual, it's what you do in life that earns respect, not what computer you own, clothes you wear or any such like frippery.

Agreed. That is why I am disappointed to read your words here. Statements like those blasting e-on software seems uncalled for at best.

I don't mind if folk love MACs, hey knock yerself out, if you're happy, great! :)

Agreed and vice versa as I said a number of times.

But until someone can knock Microsnot into the dustbin, which I wouldn't mind at all, AND gave us a free, stable, secure OS that will work with our apps....we're stuck.

Alas, like it or not, Microsnot set a standard around which a coherent system could evolve. Apple had a silly closed in monopoly that damn near wiped them out years ago, "exclusivity" = mass extinction at some point, as history teaches us :D

**FACT vs Incorrect information > Fact is it was Apple that set the standard upon which a "coherent system" can be built for the public when they introduced their very first Mac. It was Microsoft which later came out with Windows, a GUI on top of DOS format like Apple. To this day, Microsoft has been copying what Apple has done and is even more evident with their Windows 7. This even translates over to their product like the Zune.
**
**It was not and is not a closed system for Apple that gave them such struggles. To understand this you have to know both companies history here. Other factors were in play. Apple computer let Steve Jobs go and that is the primary reason for what nearly cost them their company. The other factors included the cash flow on hand when the ".com" bubble burst. There are many articles a few books and even a few audio books at "audible.com" on how Apple turned things around, the return of Jobs and more. If you love computers you will find it enjoyable.
**

Today, what we all need, ALL  of us, is a free, stable, secure, fast, effcient OS, that works with MS products and that can evolve with hardware improvements.

It's a rip off that we have to pay for an OS, something which you simply cannot do without, and which the 2 monopolies have made a shambollick mess of, compared to the openess of the Linux crowd.
I don't use Linux, I want as little hassle as possible, and as much compatability as possible. Otherwise I'd be all over it like a rash! Linux does indeed show the way.

**Agreed about Linux. However as you may know Mac OS X has a Unix underpinning as opposed to the kernal in Windows providing a more robust and stable foundation. Certified "Unix 03"

Here is a factual link to back it up, others can be provided.

**en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X

renders up a scene of a giant airship dropping hundreds of tons of poo on Microsoft and Apple HQs! :tt2:

So me, as an "individual", I don't like any of the monopolies, but I'll use what works and is cheap.
Yes I'm cheap, damn right I'm cheap!! Because I don't have much money, and what I do have I'll spend on Vue and content, rather than an extra £500 to £2000 on a MAC! :lol:
Man, £1400 for 64 bit Vista rig with 8 gigs was a PIA to pay, but, it is a huge improvement.

If Blender was like Vue, I'd be all over that, too. But it's about as much fun to use as covering yourself in chocolate and kicking your toe up a hungry hippopotamus's bum! :D

And now, for something completely different!

On a less silly note...have you or anyone else compared an Apple 8 core, versus a dual Xeon i7 for render speeds? :)

Look for a report on 3D World, they said coming soon. There have been tests done by Toms Hardware and some others but not sure about render speeds tested. Will have to look that up.

**See my prior post to you for the intro, I will refute this post with KNOWN FACT point-by-point below where possible to correct your personal conjecture. I remain shocked you would post this without validating the statements first because they are glaringly inaccurate.
**
Commonality  (easy to get, easy to ge tparts or repairs, nearest MAC shop is 30 odd miles away, dozens of PC shops in between, here)

**It depends on your country and location within as to this statement. Mac is just as easy to get parts for either direct from Apple or through others that have been around awhile like OWC (Other World Computing). I can have a part here within days. Also this depends upon if you have Apple Care or not as this is no hassle at all if you do.

Also, most (not all) PCs have 3rd rate support and the workers read a script. They are mostly foreign based outside the USA too. Apple Care is not and you can talk to one of their "Genius" people too at a Mac Store or online.**

lower price (you do NOT see local Tescos bulk pricing MACs! As an example.)

**Nor will you and thankful for that too I am. They will never be at a bulk store because that is not their demographic model and they know who their market is very well. It goes back to what myself and others have said, you get what you pay for. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy.
**
Can't play most games on MACs. WHy have consoles when most games are better on PCs?

**Fact vs Conjecture > Fact is Mac can play games rather an Mac Pro, iMac or Macbook. As pointed out many times, the value comes into play when you can use "Bootcamp" and run Windows in it's native environment. Buy whatever games you want made for Windows and there is no issues at all. You must not have read any of my prior staments on this.

Why have consoles when most games are better on PCs you ask is because of several known reasons. First, the game consoles are geared to hard-core gamers or teens and the trend has shifted in that direction as market share shows. Magazines web sites and podcasts like PC Gamer, OXM, the Firing Squad, Gamespot, etc. have shown this trend for some time now. Also, Microsoft has done a fine job with their 360 Live support and built a better networked gaming community there, even better than PC. Sony is catching up, but still lags behind. Another HUGE factor is game companies make a lot more money on platforms and then port over to PC.
**
Many apps don't come for MACs, and why have ot go through hoops AND buy WIndows for the MAC to run them?

**FACT vs Conjecture> Most apps do come for Mac now, very few don't have any support at all. In fact Autodesk has started to support Mac now more than ever as more professionals switch platforms for production work. You may refer to 3D World #114 for the full column.

Not sure what "hoops" you mean to buy Windows as it's a mouse click away at Amzon.com and I can have it here 2 Days with free shipping on Amazon Prime. A personal choice though for why you would buy Windows is because you would get the best of both worlds if you wanted it. As I said before I am running the current build of Windows 7 now.**

64 bit.

FACT> Mac is too, especially under Snow Leopard. Check out this link for details explaining this fact. www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/28/road_to_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_64_bit_to_the_kernel.html

Etc So I stick with PCs, yes it's taken Microsnot years to get a decent OS, sigh, but MAC's aren't all that either, the Amiga was more than 10 years ahead of both of 'em 20 years ago!

**The Macs are for reasons mentioned in prior posts. You are correct about the Amiga though. I worked for Commodore during my early years as a tech writer and that is where I made lots of friends, some still in the industry today. In fact there are many things copied by Microsoft and Apple on that platform. Do you recall "Sticky RAM" and the GUI that looked sort of like Windows 3.11 years before? Oh yes and 20MB hard drives were insane along with 2MB of memory because that's all anyone would ever need. The good'ol days indeed.
**
If folk like MACs, good, everyone ot their own :) and competition keeps that bunch in Microsoft moving (however slowly).
But for the average person, MACs aren't all that, like it or not.

**The data from the news sources like those sighted in prior posts here by me suggest otherwise. In fact, the Mac is the fastest growing platform for the average user, especially their "Macooks and iMac" lines. Most students entering college now have a Mac.
**

Less security threats , yeah tha'ts a good point, bar that...take your money and go see how easy it is ot get each, and what you get for your money, in the REAL world, NOT the world of computer specialists in the world's major cities!

So, think of Joe Public, guys, when you are fighting , 'cause they usually haven't got a CLUE  ;)

munches popcorn wahhcing the fight :p

Here is a little tid-bit that is one of several examples that support yet another statment I was referring to in prior posts. Like I have always said, it's not about one platform vs another it's about knowing what has been said and published in magazines and podcasts so misinformation is not given to those that don't read all this material on a regular basis.

Source: Maximum PC October 2008
Title: Inside Microsofts $6 Billion Failure
Interview: Eric Lustig - Product Manager at Microsoft. Responsible for "Windows Fundumentals"

"He conceded that Apple appeals to more and more consumers because the hardware is slick, the price is OK, and Apple doesn't annoy it's customers (or allow third parties to).

This is a direct contradiction to some posts here regarding Apple prices and acknowldgement of the growing consumer base stright from Microsoft. A great read and very insigful feature with lots of comparisons. He really gives some rather candid ansers and there are many comparisons done too that deal with Visa vs XP.

Well, fact also is that an i7 from HP costs $1460 (list price) whereas a MacPro costs $3300 (list price). I haven't seen any comparative benchmarks but I doubt that the performance of the mac pro is more than double the one of HP. Has anyone seen a benchmark?
Of course, HP is just an example, there are other hardware makers who offer similar stuff. That's another advantage of PC: there's competition between hardware producers, whereas Apple is alone doing their machines.

And until now I still haven't seen my list of arguments being defeated... :-)

Regarding consumer base, because it's so small, it's only natural that it grows. Any smaller and Apple would disappear... ;-)

Actually the new Mac Pro has 8-cores (2X4 core Xeon “Nehalem” processors) which, along with 8 virtual Hyperthreaded cores results in 16 "cores." The i7 is 1X4-cores plus 4 Hyperthreaded cores, for 8 "cores."
 Let's not compare Apples to oranges though. The Xeon “Nehalem” processor is not, I repeat, NOT the same as the i7.  The i7 is pretty comparable in doing rendering -- clock for clock, but the mac is a workstation level PC, and one could use the Xeon “Nehalem” processor based Mac as a powerful server. The Mac Pro is first and foremost a powerful graphics workstation. BTW, 3D applications like Vue are graphics applications -- just not 2D graphics applications.
My Mac Pro is not the Xeon “Nehalem” processor base Mac, but the Jan 2008 model. Doesn't matter to me, the 8-cores still render like about 16-cores worth of RenderCow activity (RenderCow is Not very efficient!).
The only significant difference between a brown box PC and my Mac Pro is the OS. Except, my Mac is also the most stable Windows platform I've ever used.

Quote - Well, fact also is that an i7 from HP costs $1460 (list price) whereas a MacPro costs $3300 (list price). I haven't seen any comparative benchmarks but I doubt that the performance of the mac pro is more than double the one of HP. Has anyone seen a benchmark?
Of course, HP is just an example, there are other hardware makers who offer similar stuff. That's another advantage of PC: there's competition between hardware producers, whereas Apple is alone doing their machines.

Compare the specs, enough said there. Doesn't matter anyway because it's personal conjecture vs direct quote from Maximum PC Microsoft interview where even their own company admits the pricing is "OK".

And until now I still haven't seen my list of arguments being defeated... :-)

**If you would read again, which obviously you have not, this debate you started was due to FACT vs personal conjecture. What happened is it was YOU and just a few others that split this thread off into two different topics:

1. What the OP stated about a "Ultimate Vue Computer" and

2. Yourself and a minority voice of others passing off your personal bias and conjecture about Apple computers as if it were FACTS.

I have yet to see you or anyone else defeat my FACTS against the statements you have made about Apple because they are backed by links and references.
**
Regarding consumer base, because it's so small, it's only natural that it grows. Any smaller and Apple would disappear... ;-)

**Again, personal conjecture, NOT FACT. As I point out before which you obviously missed or didn't bother reading:

www.tgdaily.com/content/view/41291/140/

It's from a 3rd party source, NOT Apple so you can't use that excuse any more. Of course it's just one of several.**

Quote - Actually the new Mac Pro has 8-cores (2X4 core Xeon “Nehalem” processors) which, along with 8 virtual Hyperthreaded cores results in 16 "cores." The i7 is 1X4-cores plus 4 Hyperthreaded cores, for 8 "cores."
 Let's not compare Apples to oranges though. The Xeon “Nehalem” processor is not, I repeat, NOT the same as the i7.  The i7 is pretty comparable in doing rendering -- clock for clock, but the mac is a workstation level PC, and one could use the Xeon “Nehalem” processor based Mac as a powerful server. The Mac Pro is first and foremost a powerful graphics workstation. BTW, 3D applications like Vue are graphics applications -- just not 2D graphics applications.
My Mac Pro is not the Xeon “Nehalem” processor base Mac, but the Jan 2008 model. Doesn't matter to me, the 8-cores still render like about 16-cores worth of RenderCow activity (RenderCow is Not very efficient!).
The only significant difference between a brown box PC and my Mac Pro is the OS. Except, my Mac is also the most stable Windows platform I've ever used.

Again, I think this is well stated and you make some valid points. I don't know how many times I have pointed the same thing out in this thread about the fact I use Windows 7 too and love the fact you get a HIGHLY reliable platform for both OS.

Quote - "The i7 is pretty comparable in doing rendering[...]"

LCBoliou, that was the key sentence for me, thanks.

If I'm buying a computer for Vue, I don't care at all about the other stuff that I don't need (being a workstation instead of a PC, having aluminum case, being used as server, etc). For Vue, my main concerns are:

• good render speed,
• good memory and
• good OpenGL implementation.

All the rest is meaningless, from Vue point of view.

Let's not forget the original question, which was centered precisely around Vue. So, for Vue, both an i7 HP or the Mac Pro would render at aproximately the same speed, according to your statement. Because you can choose the memory and graphic card you want, I conclude once again that it's better to buy an i7 HP because it's equally fast and it's much cheaper.

So, I conclude from your statements (LCBoliou's and 3DNeo's) that:

• if I would like to buy a very good graphic workstation I would buy a Mac Pro, as the best value for money.
• if I want to buy a computer for Vue, an HP i7 (for example) would be roughly equivalent to a Mac Pro regarding the main factors that are relevant for Vue, at a much lower price, and so it's a much better choice.

So, thanks, that's a wrap for me! :-)
 

Quote - Quote - "The i7 is pretty comparable in doing rendering[...]"

LCBoliou, that was the key sentence for me, thanks.

If I'm buying a computer for Vue, I don't care at all about the other stuff that I don't need (being a workstation instead of a PC, having aluminum case, being used as server, etc). For Vue, my main concerns are:

• good render speed,
• good memory and
• good OpenGL implementation.

All the rest is meaningless, from Vue point of view.

Let's not forget the original question, which was centered precisely around Vue. So, for Vue, both an i7 HP or the Mac Pro would render at aproximately the same speed, according to your statement. Because you can choose the memory and graphic card you want, I conclude once again that it's better to buy an i7 HP because it's equally fast and it's much cheaper.

So, I conclude from your statements (LCBoliou's and 3DNeo's) that:

• if I would like to buy a very good graphic workstation I would buy a Mac Pro, as the best value for money.
• if I want to buy a computer for Vue, an HP i7 (for example) would be roughly equivalent to a Mac Pro regarding the main factors that are relevant for Vue, at a much lower price, and so it's a much better choice.

So, thanks, that's a wrap for me! :-)
 

I**'m pleasantly surprised you actually did not take words out of context or make up your own personal conjecture vs known FACT as in all your prior posts, especially Apple.**

To be clear though -

• if I would like to buy a very good graphic workstation I would buy a Mac Pro, as the best value for money.

Yes that is CORRECT.  You would use it for other apps that are 64 bit on the Mac OS platform like C4D and others. Then Bootcamp for the few apps that you want to use that are not 64 bit yet on the Mac OS if you wanted.

• if I want to buy a computer for Vue, an HP i7 (for example) would be roughly equivalent to a Mac Pro regarding the main factors that are relevant for Vue, at a much lower price, and so it's a much better choice.

If its VALUE over performance you are after and you ONLY wanted it for Vue and NOTHING else mattered at all, that may be true at this time. However readers should note there are not many technical benchmarks out yet on the new Intel Nehalem CPUs. The speed increase is significant on some reports, but too early to know about the price/performce ratio yet cross platform (Windows or Mac), not to mention the graphic card specs and amount of memory, etc. which could raise the cost.

See, we can agree when you don't state personal opinion and try to pass them off as facts. :-)

Quote - "See, we can agree when you don't state personal opinion and try to pass them off as facts. :-)"

Well, my conclusions were a personal opinion. LOL :-)
And I don't think I ever tried to pass my opinions as facts. It is only your opinion that I did that. :-) And it's only my opinion that I didn't. LOL

I wouldn't want my computer only for Vue but also for 4 more apps that form my workflow (GeoControl, Poser, Zbrush, Photoshop). But, for all of these, the factors that I mentioned are more than enough and so my conclusion still stand valid, I would say (flag: my opinion! :-)). I think that most Vue hobbyists, like myself, do not use a lot more apps than these, if that many.

I must say this was a rather intesting discussion. Thanks for that! :-)

Quote - Quote - "See, we can agree when you don't state personal opinion and try to pass them off as facts. :-)"

Well, my conclusions were a personal opinion. LOL :-)
And I don't think I ever tried to pass my opinions as facts. It is only your opinion that I did that. :-) And it's only my opinion that I didn't. LOL

I wouldn't want my computer only for Vue but also for 4 more apps that form my workflow (GeoControl, Poser, Zbrush, Photoshop). But, for all of these, the factors that I mentioned are more than enough and so my conclusion still stand valid, I would say (flag: my opinion! :-)). I think that most Vue hobbyists, like myself, do not use a lot more apps than these, if that many.

I must say this was a rather intesting discussion. Thanks for that! :-)

No problem, glad you found it educational.

Now, that you know I won the Apple debate you started with by sighting personal conjecture over FACT in your posts (about Apple), I wonder if you will be professional enough to concede you were wrong about your Apple statements (nothing to do with Vue)?

Also, an apology for making it personal and questioning my education background (something I didn't do) would be nice. Then we can sign off and shake hands on this like any professional would.

Quote - "No problem, glad you found it educational. "

I didn't say educational, I said interesting. Who's misquoting who now? ;-)

Quote - "Now, that you know I won the Apple debate"

Haha! :-) The debate was not about Apple, it was about the "perfect Vue computer", remember? That's the thread title. And, in the end I won the debate because you admitted that a PC was a better choice for Vue than a Mac. Let me quote you (hopefully not misquote): "If its VALUE over performance you are after and you ONLY wanted it for Vue and NOTHING else mattered at all, that may be true at this time."

Quote - "I wonder if you will be professional enough to concede you were wrong about your Apple statements"
I still think I'm right about Apple in general but I don't want to discuss it further, sorry but I'm a bit tired of it and, in the end, it's useless because my point was already validated (see above). :-)

Quote - "Also, an apology for making it personal and questioning my education background (something I didn't do) would be nice. "

I never questioned your education background. I trust you have the background you say you have and never questioned it. All I said is that someone's background is not relevant for a discussion. Knowledge and opinions should prove themselves right without the need to be reenforced by one's background. You probably never heard a Nobel prize winner validating his statements by saying "... this is like this and I know I'm right because I'm a Nobel prize winner".
However, I do apologize for not having made myself clear in this respect in our discussion. :-)

Regarding making it personal, you are right there, I did make it slightly personal in some points because I didn't like your attitude, for the reasons that I mentioned already ("pulling ranks") and I got a little bit irritated. I should have known better not to get irritated by things like this and for that I do apologize. :-)

Let's shake hands! :-)

Quote - Quote - "No problem, glad you found it educational. "

I didn't say educational, I said interesting. Who's misquoting who now? ;-)

Yes, you did say "interesting", but I did educate you on Apple. See all your posts where I took your statements on and debunked them with known FACT and supported them with references.

Quote - "Now, that you know I won the Apple debate"

Haha! :-) The debate was not about Apple, it was about the "perfect Vue computer", remember? That's the thread title. And, in the end I won the debate because you admitted that a PC was a better choice for Vue than a Mac. Let me quote you (hopefully not misquote): "If its VALUE over performance you are after and you ONLY wanted it for Vue and NOTHING else mattered at all, that may be true at this time."

If you read word for word what you said in all your posts you will see where you split this topic into two different ones as I already pointed out in a prior post. I also refer you to where I said it was NOT about Vue or Apple vs PC but rather FACT vs your person conjecture which you were trying to pass off on others.

**My quote:

"For me, it is not about Mac vs PC but rather people wanting to ignore known valid sources of technical information. This makes it difficult because just a few select people want to make conjecture based on their own personal views. What this leads to is someone reading this thread getting wrong facts and data which may lead them to believe those are true if no one challenges them factually."**

Quote - "I wonder if you will be professional enough to concede you were wrong about your Apple statements"
I still think I'm right about Apple in general but I don't want to discuss it further, sorry but I'm a bit tired of it and, in the end, it's useless because my point was already validated (see above). :-)

**What you think does not matter, if you read known technical magazines (I get 6 a month Windows, Mac and Linux), which I assumed you did being an "IT guy" then you would already know these facts and not try to insert information you make up because it is how you feel personally.

Sorry but your points were debunked (about Apple), not validated. You split the topic off from Vue when you started making those Apple statements, see above.**

Quote - "Also, an apology for making it personal and questioning my education background (something I didn't do) would be nice. "

I never questioned your education background. I trust you have the background you say you have and never questioned it. All I said is that someone's background is not relevant for a discussion. Knowledge and opinions should prove themselves right without the need to be reenforced by one's background. You probably never heard a Nobel prize winner validating his statements by saying "... this is like this and I know I'm right because I'm a Nobel prize winner".
However, I do apologize for not having made myself clear in this respect in our discussion. :-)

Regarding making it personal, you are right there, I did make it slightly personal in some points because I didn't like your attitude, for the reasons that I mentioned already ("pulling ranks") and I got a little bit irritated. I should have known better not to get irritated by things like this and for that I do apologize. :-)

**That tells me a lot about you then because there was no "attitude". You read into it only what you wanted to and made your own conclusions about me. Does that mean you treat others at your work the same way you treated me here if you think their "attitude" is not to your liking or people with more experience like the CEO is "pulling ranks"? I bet not given you would most likely be fired.

But I do accept your apology on this.
**
Let's shake hands! :-)

AGREED! Have fun and happy rendering. Best wishes to you, signing off of this topic.

Quote - "Yes, you did say "interesting", but I did educate you on Apple."

You transmitted opinions and some information (true or not, I'm not sure). Education is something more...

Quote - "What you think does not matter, if you read known technical magazines"

Some people take the printed word as the absolute truth. You shouldn't believe in everything you read because who ever wrote that can also be wrong. Think about it in a critical way (especially if you read statistics of a brand market share in a magazine of that brand... :-)).

Quote - "Sorry but your points were debunked (about Apple), not validated."

The main point, the question of this thread, was validated by you. A PC is the best choice for Vue. You wrote that yourself, see your post. Let me copy+paste here again, my statement and your response. This is too good not to be repeated: :-)
-- My statement
if I want to buy a computer for Vue, an HP i7 (for example) would be roughly equivalent to a Mac Pro regarding the main factors that are relevant for Vue, at a much lower price, and so it's a much better choice.
-- Your response:
If its VALUE over performance you are after and you ONLY wanted it for Vue and NOTHING else mattered at all, that may be true at this time."

Quote - "Does that mean you treat others at your work the same way you treated me here if you think their "attitude" is not to your liking or people with more experience like the CEO is "pulling ranks"?"

To tell you the truth, I don't often meet people who start a conversation by pulling ranks so this is a problem I don't normally have to deal with.

Quote - "signing off of this topic."

;-)

Quote - Quote - "Yes, you did say "interesting", but I did educate you on Apple."

You transmitted opinions and some information (true or not, I'm not sure). Education is something more...

Quote - "What you think does not matter, if you read known technical magazines"

Some people take the printed word as the absolute truth. You shouldn't believe in everything you read because who ever wrote that can also be wrong. Think about it in a critical way (especially if you read statistics of a brand market share in a magazine of that brand... :-)).

Quote - "Sorry but your points were debunked (about Apple), not validated."

The main point, the question of this thread, was validated by you. A PC is the best choice for Vue. You wrote that yourself, see your post. Let me copy+paste here again, my statement and your response. This is too good not to be repeated: :-)
-- My statement
if I want to buy a computer for Vue, an HP i7 (for example) would be roughly equivalent to a Mac Pro regarding the main factors that are relevant for Vue, at a much lower price, and so it's a much better choice.
-- Your response:
If its VALUE over performance you are after and you ONLY wanted it for Vue and NOTHING else mattered at all, that may be true at this time."

Quote - "Does that mean you treat others at your work the same way you treated me here if you think their "attitude" is not to your liking or people with more experience like the CEO is "pulling ranks"?"

To tell you the truth, I don't often meet people who start a conversation by pulling ranks so this is a problem I don't normally have to deal with.

Quote - "signing off of this topic."

;-)

I keep trying to close out this thread and you keep taking everything out of context so I am forced to correct my words and place them into the correct context. It was unsubscribed to and I saw this written with my words so....

The thread actually states "the perfect Vue computer" NOT the Perfect Value Computer for Vue. Those are YOUR words and what YOU posted. I did say:

"If its VALUE over performance you are after and you ONLY wanted it for Vue and NOTHING else mattered at all, that may be true at this time."

**I said "may be true" and also that is NOT what the OP asked. Both of us are WRONG here and the PERFECT Vue computer would not have VALUE factored into it because it would cost a LOT more.

Here is the original OP question:

"I'm considering getting a new computer so I was hoping for some advice as to what would make the best computer for Vue....."

So to answer the OP, which is a sticking point with you, then it would be a Mac Pro with about 16GB of RAM. You would use it mainly in Mac OS and then duel boot to Windows for the few 64 bit apps that are not yet on the Mac OS like Vue. There was no mention of VALUE here.**

You conveniently ignore everything I have debunked in your posts with the FACTS and supported links so it's pointless because there is a need for you to win here and you can't admit to being totally wrong about anything.

So, I will be the bigger man here and just say I gladly yield to you, and wish you good luck.

Guys, like it or not, here, where I live, getting or repairing a MAC is much harder and more expensive to do than for a PC. That is reality! :) In the end it's the reality that's important.

I can go to dozens of shops in my locale who sell and fix PCs, NONE of them do MACs, nearest as said is 30 miles away

though hm, a PCworld 15 miles away may sell MACs..
checks online, they don't sell Mac Pros though only have iMACs and MACbooks
I just chekced their prices... iMAC costs almost £1000, where as a good PCs starts at £450..that's what real people they see when they go to buy in the real world.
I live in the real world, I'm poor by your standards so are most people round here (deprived ex-industrial region), that extra £500 isn't a joke.

I just checked for a mac Pro form Apple UK, going from a 640 gigabyte to 1 terabyte drive they charge an extra £80...lol, a new terabyte drive costs £80 in toto!

for most folk, they want a shop they can go get buy a system, or get parts/fixes.
yes you can buy online but...for most folk, buying from a real shop is best, as it's easier to send back, get fixes etc ;)

Vue's price has jumped far far too much, it has put off many folk (I read many forums), that is bad.
 Elitism kills an app (or system) in the end, user base size is crucial.
Seen many apps and systems shrink or go to the wall because of that silliness. More use = more apps made for it, more word of mouth etc. All very important. :)

Piracy also increases as folk can't afford elitist items, which does no one any good, better more sales for less per unit because the app, or format, who has more users in the end, survives. As an example, see Poser!
poser has vastly more users than many other 3d apps put together, thus there's a vast amount of content for it. This is good, even if the Poser format/system is clunky as hell.
All that content = desire to keep it going.

"Joe Public who's interested in learning computer art", as opposed ot "person who's a naturally giftded artist and hardcore techie" :)
you don't need a PHd do work with Vue! Many folk would like to try digital art, but get put off by unfamiliarity with computers, again, real world here. this isn't much of a concern for younger generations, but for older ones it sure is.
Hey if a MAC is easier for 'em to use and it suits them, brilliant :)

My earlier quote: lower price (you do NOT see local Tescos bulk pricing MACs! As an example.)

3Dneo's reply: **Nor will you and thankful for that too I am. They will never be at a bulk store because that is not their demographic model and they know who their market is very well. It goes back to what myself and others have said, you get what you pay for. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy.
**
"demogprahic"...sigh. they are elitist. It maybe works for their business model, but it has nearly destroyed them before.
Apple has a lower use base. note how mass extinctions operate in the natural world...specialist elites get chopped when things go bad...

hey if I was well off I'd love to let you take me along ot an Apple store and sell me on MACs :) but not gonna happen, because money is a huge issue :/
I'd like to try a MAC, but since they dont' work with some of my apps, are so expensive and I have so little money, and I shouldn't be forced ot have a dual boot AND buy another copy of WIndows, it's  frustrating :(

And here's a thought:
What is the best weapon in the world? An odd topic that sometimes comes up in debates serious or silly. The answer is: whatever the hell you have in your hand!! because that's the only one you have, thus all the rest are CRAP as they don't count! ;)
the point is that the question is asking: *what is the best tool you currently have?

So it's much better to have a PC you can afford, versus a MAC you cannot.
If money and availability isn't a worry well then perhaps a high end MAC is better.
Perosnally I like the idea of MAC or Linux for security if nothing else.

Thus perhaps the question of this thread originally should have been: 
what is the BEST computer for Vue, at certain price brackets? :)

If I win the lotto, I'll send you a message, eh? :D

3DNeo, I knew you'd come back. You already said goodbye twice and still came back. :-)

Quote - "I keep trying to close out this thread"

Well, the thread isn't yours to close, is it? :-)
Maybe you mean that you want to have the last word? Keep on trying... :-)

Quote - "So to answer the OP, which is a sticking point with you, then it would be a Mac Pro with about 16GB of RAM. You would use it mainly in Mac OS and then duel boot to Windows for the few 64 bit apps that are not yet on the Mac OS like Vue. There was no mention of VALUE here. "

Shouldn't it be a sticking point with all of us?
Since when is value not a part of the equation in any purchase? For Mac fans probably value has a less importance because they're used to pay overly expensive stuff. :-)

Quote - "You conveniently ignore everything I have debunked in your posts with the FACTS and supported links so it's pointless because there is a need for you to win here and you can't admit to being totally wrong about anything."

What do you mean "ignore"? How do you know I ignore whatever? I just take on some of the words you wrote and go from there. I can't quote everything, what's the point? Am I wrong in taking only some parts of your speech? Are some parts more true than others?

Quote - "So, I will be the bigger man here and just say I gladly yield to you, and wish you good luck."

Somehow, I think we've not seen the last of you in this thread yet... :-) Well, I do hope you return for the 3rd time, it's nice talking to you. :-) See ya and good luck to you too!

Rutra
hey, debates on what computer is best, you know, like many such debates, the facts don't really matter in the end, only what folk like & believe, eh? :D

• "Red heads versus blondes"
• "Was Deckard a replicant?"
• "Where the hell does belly button fluff come from anyway?!"
• "How does the snow plough driver get to work when it's snowing?"
• If you think Jessica Rabbit was sexy, does that make you kinky?
• What do you think happened at the end of the film "The Thing"?

etc! ;)

Silverblade, you may be right. Something like why do some people prefer BMW and others prefer Audi. I prefer Audi, btw. :-)

 No, no, no.....................it has to be Porsche!

Oh no! Izaro, are we starting a new discussion here?! :scared: :lol:

PS - I have no qualifications in the field, except for being a consumer, but my mother was a professional dress-maker, does that give my opinion extra weight?

 Oh well, since this seems to be a thread that refuses to be quiet, I'll just add a little light reading:

$1000 laptop comparison

and

$2000 laptop comparison

Chudo121-
it's a shame you have no friends,or they would advice you to stay away from public places in general and this forum in particular when you are under the influence. Your language is disgusting and your contribution is - well, non existent. You were'nt missed when you were kicked out before and you wont be missed when you're kicked out again, which I'm sure is imminent.

 .......and the South did not lose the civil war........................

Hmmm... if anyone wonders now about my post on Apr 8th, and why I'm suddenly saying those things to chudo121 - he had a post to which I reacted. This post was  subsequently (rightly)  removed by admin because it was against the tos rules.  I wouldnt have said what I said  unprovoked.

LOL.... interesting thread.....   Rutra, like it!

P.S. FCLittle.... The best computer for Vue (at the moment) is a Corei7 with 3(or 6)  Banks of memory - you don't need to go for an i965, an i920 is ok. Of course, cooling is paramount.
Regarding the interesting debate.......  ok...... :-)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -

As I said, you can check my profile and see I am a professional and don't care what someone decides to use because it's their money. But speaking from a purely Computer Science education background, the Mac Pro is truly the way to go.

You keep saying that, and yet you still sound like little more than an apple fanboy.

Sorry, but I don't get into debates like this as I have pointed out my credentials which speak for themself. They are based on known facts and have nothing to do with personal feelings.

You rest on your credentials more than your facts.  Bottom line is macs are over priced, regardless of their relative worth, which is only, arguably, marginally better than that of a PC, and certainly not worth the price difference.  The fact that you have to constantly refer to your credentials to augment your argument is testimony to that. 

And as far as credentials go, as far as anyone here knows, you're absolutely lousy at your job and all your colleagues laugh at you behind your back.  Your credentials count for very little.

My two cents...

Just upgraded my box to an I7-920 Platform. Spent $1200.00 for the upgrade minus the hard drive, OS, DVDROM and PSU. Chip Overclocked to 3.6 and the dominator mem overclocked to 1800. Spending $1200 vs $3000 plus for a mac was a no brainer. Here are my Vue 7 Benchmarks.

Here is what I purchased...

CM HAF
CM V8 - Temps under full load are aroung 66-67
Asus P6T OC/Palm
6 Gigs Dominator 1600 - overclocks nicely
EVGA Core 216 260GTX OC

CPU: I7-920 3.6ghz
Build: 38524
Compilation: 64-bit
Operating system: vista

C:Program Filese-on softwareVue 7 xStreamPythonVueMark72_Land.vue : 161.4 s
C:Program Filese-on softwareVue 7 xStreamPythonVueMark74_Cerro Verde.vue : 84.6 s
C:Program Filese-on softwareVue 7 xStreamPythonVueMark77_RadiosityRoom.vue : 71.0 s
C:Program Filese-on softwareVue 7 xStreamPythonVueMark7Terrain.vue : 109.9 s
C:Program Filese-on softwareVue 7 xStreamPythonVueMark711_Peak.vue : 68.9 s

VueMark7 score : 213

BBRichter

Can you run Vista Business 64 oem on a mac pro? I wasn't sure if being oem would have any impact when installing on a mac?