I would expect nothing less in terms of bold assertions and implicit threats from one who calls himself  "bishop666." As usual, nothing in his gallery. Good luck with your lawsuit.

Attached Link: Uniform computer information transaction act (UCITA)

Makes very interesting reading, how the software industry managed to impose completely different rules than any other commercial branch. They seem to have all the protection and no responsibility.

As I said, I dont want to use the law in this situation anyhow. But I, and other users, should do all they can to demand a working product in a timely manner. Whether or not the software producer has the protection of the law, users should keep reminding them about their moral obligations. Taking money and not providing a working product is fraud by the laws of common sense and desency.

Quote - They still did nothing about the worst bug - the dislexia. Without fixing that they really cant claim vue is working on the MAC it's a horrible horrible(and may I add -horrible!) bug. They claim they are still investigating it, but that is of no help to me and other mac uers.

Were you ever able to provide a working and reproducible recipe for this bug? If so, then I don't understand why it wouldn't be fixed immediately as I could certainly understand how frustrating such a problem would be.

Chipp,
E-on never claimed they cant reproduce this bug. In fact I had the impression they already knew about it when I reported it first.
(JCD also complained about this bug earlier this thread, so it isnt just me)

What John Canver said in his replay this week was
"7. That might still occur, unfortunately, we're still investigating."
("7" is the dyslexia bug in my list)
It seems obvious they know about the bug, and are aware it isnt fixed, doesnt it?

Yeh - I dont understand either why  it wouldnt be fixed immediately:)

I'm glad you sympathize - I dont have much hope for solutions, so I'll take sympathy :)

I'll inquire again when I gather the energy for arguing again.

Quote -  
Now, it is possible that they have covered themselves via some other loophole but the mere fact that there have been ongoing issues with the Mac version even prior to the current release speaks volumes about the developer's concern for their user base ... they just lost a $935.00 sale!

Remember that when you talk about lawsuits, right is always on the side with the deepest pockets (a.k.a. most cunning and dastardly lawyers).

From what I see in threads about 7.4/7.5 here and on Cornucopia, it is likely that E-On is saving on QCA (quality control and assurance) resources and personel; maybe the reason is that they are creating monetary resources for their legal department...

Bye!!!

 Pnina,

Knowing a bug exists and having a recipe for it are two completely different things. When trying to fix bugs in my own software products, it is substantially easier if I have a recipe for fixing a bug, than if I don't have a reliable way of creating the bad behavior-- and thus testing my fix for it.

Another way of looking at it is: Just because a recipe doesn't exist, doesn't mean the bug doesn't exist. It just may be harder to identify what causes it. Once the cause is known and reproducable, typically the resolution is much simpler.

It sort of like cars. Your car makes a funny sound, you take it in to the dealer to fix, but now the sound is gone. The dealer is sure you're telling the truth about the sound, but cannot figure out how to fix a sound, unless he can reproduce it.

HTH,
Chipp

Quote -
Remember that when you talk about lawsuits, right is always on the side with the deepest pockets (a.k.a. most cunning and dastardly lawyers).

From what I see in threads about 7.4/7.5 here and on Cornucopia, it is likely that E-On is saving on QCA (quality control and assurance) resources and personel; maybe the reason is that they are creating monetary resources for their legal department...

Sorry Alex, can't let you get away with such a purposeful snide comment...and you complain about being called a troll. How do you expect people to take you seriously?

Quote -  I would expect nothing less in terms of bold assertions and implicit threats from one who calls himself  "bishop666." As usual, nothing in his gallery. Good luck with your lawsuit.

Interesting leap.  How in the world did you conjure legal action from a purely explanatory post?
Furthermore, on a forum of this nature there is hardly any place, nay, there is no place for personal affrontation and your sophmoric criticizm of my screen name is clearly inflammatory and deserving of an apology.

By the way, in regards to your comment about my gallery being empty, be advised that my creative endeavors are purely commercial and I have no need to seek the adulation of beings with your brand of snobbishness.  

As a total aside to the main point of this thread:
I alway save ever finished render as both TIF, PSD and BMP
this is in case I accidentlaly save over, delete or whatever one file. So at least I'll have the other 2 originals to work from!

As for "snobbishness":
The non-CG artworld is riddled with pathetic, moronic snobbery, and it disgusts me.
The CG world IS riddled too with snobbery based on how expsnesive an app is, as if "pro vs amateur" matters a tinkers damn, which it doesn't, when ti comes to art.
Sigh.
I've seen outstanding work made with house paint, sand, MS Paint, Bryce ten years ago (see Martin Murphy's work) , etc.

Chipp's a great guy about Vue, but far too unflappable! ;) He must be a Buddhist monk in real life to be that even-keeled.
(bit of a backhanded compliment, lol)

Vue has bugs, so does life, and?
The MAC issues seem very severe. I thnk E-On really should have a lot more public testing, ie more beta releases.
E-On needs more public involvement if only for a better relationship.

Quote - From what I see in threads about 7.4/7.5 here and on Cornucopia, it is likely that E-On is saving on QCA (quality control and assurance) resources and personel; maybe the reason is that they are creating monetary resources for their legal department...

I wouldn't have put it like that myself, but I must admit to feeling some concern about eon's latest offerings, which don't seem to have been tested with the care one might expect. Rightly or wrongly, eon seems to have gained a reputation as producing crash-a-lot software; it's not just here or the eon forums where you hear this, but also in pro arenas such as CG Talk, where a common statement goes along the lines of "I'd like to use [insert eon product of choice] because it produces fantastic results, but it just crashes too much to rely on".

You'd think that they would work to repair that perception, but then they produce a paid-for upgrade which seems to make matters worse. I just don't understand their approach, but it has made me very wary of spending more money with them right now.

Chipp,
By now I rather deal with e-on than with you. Knowing how unsatisfied I am with their handling of the problems, that should give you an idea how irritating I find your reactions.
Why do you find it necessary to defend 'their position' even when you have no knowledge that they actually dispute what I reported? Why not take my word that it is a problem, they admit it but it isnt solved?
E-on is never shy telling me they cannot reproduce my bugs. They have NOT claimed that on this bug.
This is my whole dialog with them about it:

Issue #1233423397

Message number: 1233423397
Synopsis: Characters/digits typed in the wrong order
Last posting date: 2009/02/13 07:27 Last answer date: 2009/02/13 07:42
Categories: Support - Vue 7 Complete - Solving a software issue
Posted by:
Pnina Osguthorpe
On:2009/01/31 09:45:14

When I use a numeric/character fields (rather than slides/gizmo etc) the digits or characters I type in appear in the wrong order. E.g. I type in 91 it appears as 19. I am absolutely a 100% sure it isnt me who is typing it in the wrong order - I watched my fingers very carefully many times. The problem doesnt occur if I type very very slowly (like a character every 2 seconds). It doesnt depend on the amount of resources available - for example I have now approx 70% and it is occurring.
I hope it is obvious that this hampers my work greatly. There is a big difference between 91 and 19, and if there it happens to be a decimal point that is in the wrong place it can be orders of magnitude wrong.

  Posted by: Lee Randall On: 2009/02/03 13:01:59
Hi Pnina,

I'm forwarding this to our development group. As we releaes updates, we continue to work on the Mac interface.

Best regards.
Lee Randall

  Posted by: Pnina Osguthorpe On: 2009/02/13 07:27:58
This issue isnt resolved. It is VERY difficult to wokr like that. There are no disclaimers about the mac version getting more bugs and less attention. I received no discount for the mac version being an inferior version. So I expect to get a better response than 'w'll look at it when find a minute'

I'm not closing threads till the issue is resolved.

  Posted by: Lee Randall On: 2009/02/13 07:42:50
Hi Pnina,

The developers are aware of the issue and are working on it.

Best regards.
Lee Randall

And as I said above this week John Canver said in his reply
"7. That might still occur, unfortunately, we're still investigating."

"the developers are aware of the issue" means to me they know the problem, they can reproduce it, but they havnt found a solution yet.
If they needed any more info from me they would have asked.

That was in JANUARY!

I dont really care how difficult it is to fix it. They claim Vue works on a mac. My machine exceds the specifications they stated. I expect them to make it work. Reading input properly is a fundamental requirement from any program, I'm not asking for too much by expecting it to work in VUE.

If I use your analogy - it isnt a noise that developed in my car after I used it. It is a flaw that was there at  the begining. It doesnt disappear when the mechanics examine it. I told the garage about it in January, a week or two after I purchased it.
They immediately said 'yes, we know about the problem, we are working on a solution that will fix it' . But ever since -nothing, no solution. Can you imagine me (or you) accepting that situation with the car? can you imagine them or their advocates saying 'oh but it is so hard building cars so they function properly!' I dont think so. If the job is too hard for you -dont do it.
My underlying premise is:

You cant charge money for a product you dont know how to build & fix.

If you dont agree with my premise there is no point in you commenting on my posts, we dont live on the same planet, We dont have the same rules of common sense and decency, we dont talk the same language.
If you do believe in this premise go back to your previous statement
"I don't understand why it wouldn't be fixed immediately as I could certainly understand how frustrating such a problem would be."
(For a minute there I thought you were sympathetic...)

Quote -
I wouldn't have put it like that myself, but I must admit to feeling some concern about eon's latest offerings, which don't seem to have been tested with the care one might expect. Rightly or wrongly, eon seems to have gained a reputation as producing crash-a-lot software; it's not just here or the eon forums where you hear this, but also in pro arenas such as CG Talk, where a common statement goes along the lines of "I'd like to use [insert eon product of choice] because it produces fantastic results, but it just crashes too much to rely on".

You'd think that they would work to repair that perception, but then they produce a paid-for upgrade which seems to make matters worse. I just don't understand their approach, but it has made me very wary of spending more money with them right now.

Absolutely agree. If you go around in other forums, you never see complaints like "the renderer is slow" or "clouds are grainy" (well, actually you see this comment if you go to Terragen forum ) or "flat plant leaves suck". You ALWAYS see people complaining about memory leaks, crashes, xStream integration issues and so on. ALWAYS about BUGS.

I admit that, were I not already a owner of Vue, I would NEVER buy it after reading such comments.

For a comparison, go to MoI (Moments of Inspiration) or L3DT (a terrain generator) or 3DCoat forums. There is a relaxed feeling. People find bugs, the developer (they are all one-man shows...) acknowledges the problem and writes that the update is available. No name calling, not flame wars, nobody bitches because everybody knows that the developer is listening his clients needs and caters for them quickly and efficiently.

In addition, in all these cases the developers are super open about future products directions (L3DT developer has on his site a ALMOST DAILY UPDATED todo list for the next release!). And before somebody writes that they are not developing in commercially competitive environments, remember that 1) MoI is a super affordable NURBS modeler a-la Rhino 2) L3DT is a terrain generator specially tuned for the game modding arena 3) 3DCoat is waging a war against ZBrush...

All boils down to whether you consider your clients as the most precious of you assets are just a bunch of suckers to be squeezed as much as possible.

Bye!!!

Quote - "the developers are aware of the issue" means to me they know the problem, they can reproduce it, but they havnt found a solution yet.

Sorry, nothing you have said indicates to me they can reproduce the problem. As mentioned before, being aware of the problem isn't the same as being able to reproduce it. Do you honestly believe if they could reliably reproduce it, they wouldn't have fixed it since you originally reported it over three months ago?

Quote - that should give you an idea how irritating I find your reactions.

Yes, by now the feeling is quite mutal. You intone this is a trivial bug to resolve, and since it is not resolved, e-on somehow singles you out to be made to suffer. And your only recourse is to post numerous complaints about your problems on this forum. Many here have tried to help you, but it is clear you are not interested in specified help for your problems.

I, myself, took time out to answer in detail each of your reported issues, with hopes of offering help, only to find you really not interested in workarounds, nor in understanding the process of how bugs are classified and resolved.

I wonder if you think a continuous stream of bad-mouthing a software program-- which many of us here enjoy using-- may dissuade others from  purchasing it? It's clearly the goal of alexcoppo and CobraEye (just read the above post from alexcoppo).

As such, my goal is to provide a counter voice of reason, fact and example to inflamatory posts from you and those mentioned above.

If they have problems reproducing it, they should have and would have said so. I have evidence from other bug reports that they would tell me if they cant reproduce the bug. They told me that in other cases, I dont see why they wouldnt in this case.  You dont know for sure that they cant, so why assume so?
I did not say or even think it was an easy bug to fix. I said it is irrelevant to the user if it is or not. Four months is quite a long time to wait for a fundamental facility as input to work right. Nobody would accept it for any other type of goods, it shouldnt be accepted for software.
I'm not saying they do it on purpose. I'm not saying they are doing it to annoy me personally. I'm saying there are unfixed bugs in a product I paid for nearly 5 months ago and that ist acceptable.
 
This round of posts and contra-posts began because I'm very decent and open about stating when they do something right, not only when they do things wrong. They finally gave me an update of what the situation is with the bug fixes this week.
I thought it would be fair to inform people about it in this thread. I said what they fixed and what isnt fixed. I said that the dislexia problem isnt, and that it is a horrible bug to live with. These are the facts. You cant dispute any of that. You cant call the true facts inflammatory.
I also keep stating it is e-on's responsibility to fix bugs in their software. Workarounds can be a temporary help, but not a solution. Certainly not when the real fixes dont arrive for weeks or even months.  I dont think that is inflammatory either. I stated my premise and provided the facts, people can and should draw their own conclusions.
As to your efforts to help, I do appreciate the time you invested, I said so many times.  But  your detailed comments didnt actually help, particularly since mostly you implied I didnt do thing right or didnt understand things right. Turns out I am right and not as stupid/ignorant  as it may seem.
To name a several examples:
-You suggested I didnt use the align command correctly. That wasnt so. E-on did at the end see the problem and fix it. I was right to complain and right to insist on a fix.
-You suggested I could cope with internal units (rather than real world units) by doing conversions by hand. E-on now agrees that makes no sense, the new update is supposed to have  that fixed. I was right to complain and right to insist on a fix.
-You said my 'glowing water' experiment is flawed becuase it is done in a box and I dont know what auto-exposure means. It was a perfectly valid experiment. In his last replay John Canver said "This is more a limitation of the fade out effect than a bug ...but making this effect sensitive to potential geometric blockers would be an interesting improvement indeed, I'll transmit this suggestion for future versions."
So my box was a valid example of a 'geometric blocker', no problem with my understanding of auto-exposure. I was right to complain. I pointed out a flaw (whether you call it a bug, malfunction  or a limitation) which should be fixed.
So there are bugs in vue which shouldnt have been there in the first place if they had efficient quality control, e-on are excruciatingly slow to figure out and fix (some of) them, but they do see sense eventualy if I'm persistent enough. You always asume first of all that I'm wrong and that I'm out to get e-on. Could you not give me the benefit of the doubt that my aim is positive, that I want vue to work well? not only for the lucky ones but for all?

I check the bugs I report very carefully, provide clear  information  and supporting evidence and all additional info asked for by e-on after submition, I post here  truthfully what the problems and responses are. It is impossible to be more fair and less inflammatory.

I'm for giving e-on some wiggle room. Here's why. Let's do some math.

Vue runs on three main OS'es. Mac, WindowsXP and Vista.

There are at least two dozen varieties of Macs which Vue can possibly run on. Multiply that by the different Mac OSX versions, point releases, and possible installed graphics driver versions (~60) and you get 1440 possible configurations for the Mac alone.

(Side note: At Altuit, We used to sell a specific software for the Mac and ended up quitting because it needed updating virtually every point release).

Now let's take the PC. How many different hardware configurations are there for PC's? Let's be sure to include the different video cards, ram amounts, processor types and speed? Let's take a modest pass and say 1,000. Now multiply it by the number of XP point versions (~5), then by the Vista point verisons (~5), then by the 64-bit versions of each (4) then by the number of possible graphic software driver versions (~50) which equals 5 million possible different PC hardware/software combinations.

And we aren't even starting to talk about other software conflicts and embedded third party API's (like Poser and SketchUp).

By my count, there are over 600 features in Vue. Assuming each feature has, oh, say 5 function points, that would be over 3000 function points. Multiply it by the total number of possible hardware and software configurations, and you start to see how huge a task it is to make sure all software runs 100% bug free on everyone's computer all the time. By the way, the number here is over 15 trillion permutations of hardware and software function points.

Still, I ask,  "Do you honestly believe if they could reliably reproduce it, they wouldn't have fixed it since you originally reported it over three months ago? "

I think they are doing the best they can.

E-On just needs much better customer interface.
As some folks' suggested, a page showing issues onging and work on them, features to be, and more beta patches.
maybe needot hire more/better PR folks?

There was an asweosme CS lady who I saw working for two games ocmpanies, on Dungeons & Dragons Online and Hellgate London, both games had big problems (not bugs so much as issues) but she was great and folks liked her. Someone liek that could make things a hell of a sight better.

As I've often noted, to us mere mortals, the SEMBLANCE of reality is far more important, than the actual reality of it.
If a compnay doens't make things very clear and friendly, things can snowball to hell and back.
A company can mean well, but lack of warm friendliness can be taken as cold, uncaring asshattery, etc.

I used ot repair PCs, and very very glad I got out of it, ugh,
(May Compaq and Hewlett Packard be "enthusiastically probed" by red-hot, chili sauce-covered hedgehogs for eternity in the bowels of Hell!! :p)
hardware is bad enough never mind SOFTWARE fixing.

Quote - E-On just needs much better customer interface.
As some folks' suggested, a page showing issues onging and work on them, features to be, and more beta patches.
maybe needot hire more/better PR folks?

...or simply something like what you find at DAZ Bug Reporting Facility; if you create a login, you can enter this subsite, submbit bug reports, track their status (up to the point of seeing who is assigned to it), you can contribute information about bugs being investigated, you can submit requests of new features, you can follow the developement of the products you are interested in.

Obviously, this does not mean that bugs are quickly fixed (e.g. Bryce has a not yet closed bug dating March 16th, 2007) but you are kept in the loop and can make informed decisions (if you watch the kettle the water boils slower but at least you know that the tea is coming... soon , better than wondering whether there is still an oven in the kitchen, don't you think so?).

Bye!!!

P.S.: I wonder why I can find example of things which make me labeled as troll in other vendors sites... may be we trolls are quite numerous... who knows?

 Unless there is a problem with their web site, it appears that E-on has temporarily discontinued sale of its Ver. 7.5 ... clicking on the "buy now" link results in the display of a message that simply says: "product unavailable."  If this is the case, then perhaps they have been listening?

Hmmm. . . worked ok for me.  Nearly bought it too :biggrin:

Quote - Hmmm. . . worked ok for me.  Nearly bought it too :biggrin:

That's odd, but you are correct.  There is a link that allows one to add a purchase to their cart but there is also a buy now link that brings you to a message that says, Unavilable. Strange!  However, if they can't figure out how to get their software to work properly on the Mac then there is no reason for us to expect their web site to work properly either.

well programming and web design are basically the same thing....

Richard,

I took a peek at your blog, and it appears you're having a tough time trying to get Vue to export models perfectly.

Vue is not really a modeling program, and as such it's not set up to do proper UV mapping-- which is what you really need for commercial models. I've never heard of someone using Vue to model and sell for profit traditional 3D objects for other applications.

In fact, Metablobs provide extremely poor resolution on exports and are optimized as CSG objects resolved at rendertime. It is considered standard procedure for one wishing to sell commercial objects to create them in a modeling application, then UV map them using the same application or separate 3rd party tool--like UV Mapper Pro.

I believe, similar to other landscape rendering applications, export is provided for mostly geometry only. In fact, if I were e-on, I'd give up trying to force fit the UV Maps-- even those which do export have an impossible UV Map included to decipher.  This is because UV Mapping is a bit of an art, and as such I know of no application which can automate it perfectly -- unless it is painted directly on the model. That's why other applications let folks edit the UVMapping parameters directly in a modeling environment.

I know they make such claims for exporting, but you'll never get the quality out of a Vue model you would out of a model built and textured in a true 3D modeling application. I should know, as I probably model more in Vue than anyone. :-)

http://www.widgetgadget.com/VueComic/Launcher.html

Hope this explanation helps. If you purchased the module for reasons of exporting commercial models for sale, then I would ask for a refund.

BTW, anyone still reading, Richard has a very nice set of renders showing the different noise nodes in Vue. Definitely worth a look!

http://blog.richard-potter.co.uk/2009/01/noise-node-reference-guide/

best,
Chipp

thanks chipp :D

yeah i gave up on the exporter now to be honest, the promised fixes in 7.4 never appeared, ive bought lightwave now aswell, still love vue mind,

Quote - " I'm for giving e-on some wiggle room.

"

What I was saying all along is that if they put a product for sale on the market for a particular platform, buyers expect a working product, and it is within their right to have it fixed by e-on in a timely manner if they find flaws in it.  Customers are entitled to  get results, not reasons.
Your quoted statement and the rest of the post do not dispute that. You are pleading for existing and future customers to be lenient, to forgo their rights. I have no objection to that. If some people find that the bugs do not  impede their productivity, if they dont find it too frustrating to enjoy the activity,  or they are just of a generous nature - by all means be forgiving.
This might even be me under some circumstances.  But it would require a more considered and helpful approach from e-on than users get now (along the lines Silverblade mentioned). It would require more transparent and more informative communications perhaps along the lines Alex suggested.

Maybe they did work on the bugs I reported a lot. But if there is  no positive result and no feedback, how am I to know?
Isnt it also plausible that they didnt work on it but instead put most of their  men-hours into developing new versions or dealing with maintanance customers for which they can charge more money, and put on the back burner existing commitments to those who paid for a product already?
If they did work as hard as they can and did the best they can - their best isnt good enough to satisfy customers rights, although they maybe good enough for charitable people who want to give up some of their entitlements.
I described the facts about the bugs I found and how they were handles by e-on. If people can/want to put up with that - by all means. But they shouldnt have to.

Quote - Your quoted statement and the rest of the post do not dispute that. You are pleading for existing and future customers to be lenient, to forgo their rights.

Not true. I am pointing out what I know to be true. According to conventional software metrics, including McCabe's theory on cyclolmatic complexity, the chances of Vue being 100% bug free is zero.

Quote - Customers are entitled to get results, not reasons.

I still ask you, "Do you honestly believe if they could reliably reproduce it, they wouldn't have fixed it since you originally reported it over three months ago?"

This sounds like a serious bug, and one which they would fix immediately if they could. While I have zero knowledge of this particular bug, I still believe they can't reproduce it and so can't fix it. If every time you tried typing in a field, the numbers were transposed, then this bug would certainly be a showstopper which needs to be fixed ASAP.

All this said, IMO e-on does a poor job with customer relations-- other than support, which I feel works reasonably well.

On their forums, I would hope they are more forthcoming with answers to reasonably posted questions. I certainly wouldn't expect them to provide a road map of all the features for next versions (as others might), but I think a friendly face, with thoughtful answers would go a long way to help customers.