Also, what is the reason you care so much what the document window size is? Is it because you render to the document window size? I never do that anymore, and I wasn't doing that even with Poser 7. I render to explicit dimensions, so the size of the viewport is irrelevant. I understand that it's a couple extra annoying steps (hotkey for render dimensions, unclick preserve aspect ratio, click to type, type the width, etc.) to change the render size then , instead of just re-sizing the window, but I'm working on a plug-in solution to that for Poser 8+. I'm making a Python window with buttons in it that you get to configure for various sizes and aspect ratios. Want 5 by 7, at 400 pixels wide? - click click done.

I always found resizing the viewport as a means to choosing render size is not that efficient. Either I care very much about exact size, in which case explicit render dimensions are the way to go. Or I care about size and aspect ratio approximately, and so a click to choose one of 1x1, 3x2, 4x3, 7x5, 16x9, and then a click for overall size [100, 200, 300, 400, etc.] seems to work quite nicely for me. The last click is a portrait or landscape radio button, but that doesn't change often.

I'm most likely going to skip Poser Pro 2010, I haven't seen anything that really appeals to me or stands out at all. I don't see anything stunning new that would entice me, only lot's of improvements of which a number should be in P8 as well, since they're not poser pro exclusive features at all, Poser pro isn't the next version, but a separate path.

As a user, I'm not exactly going to jump up and down with things like have CP in my library, I don't need something like that bogging down my application. Why in the world do we need a CP room and CP in the library? As for all the library improvements, cool for those who like the library, but if I even would get Poser Pro 2010, the first thing I will do is completely remove the library. Yes, I finally did that get rid of it completely, it's gone, completely from my Poser 8. Poser 8 can't access it anymore.

Even when I told Poser that I don't want the library in my workspace as a window, it still is being started up and even causing errors at times. I simply got rid of it completety and now P8 isn't bogged down my it anymore and runs a lot faster and more stable. Finally.......

I'm going to wait for the final feature list to see if there is something that I'm really missing and then I will make a final decision, but for now it seems like I may stick to P8 a lot longer.

Quote - *80 GB runtime, P8, Win XP. I've never had to wait for the library.

• That may be a reason, my runtime contains 180 GB while I am using the same OS.*

Okay, that's a little more than the double, which means that it should take a little over the double of the time it takes for me (instantly); Maybe a second, or even two?

(My point is this can't be the reason it's instant for me and slow for you.)

Quote - The new library can be arranged exactly like the old library, with a "current folder". Plus it has breadcrumbs so you can jump up any number of levels in one click.

Scrollbars are same size but the "hot spot" is larger than it used to be - grabbing the thumb is much easier than it was.

New library can be told not to re-open previously open folders, so faster startup does not require that you "tidy up" your tree.

Closing all branches is a double click now.

Folder scanning is faster than it used to be.

The library window can be its own "application level" window. Can be maximized, minimized, restored independently of the rest of Poser's windows. When run as an app window, it does not in any way dock or change the size of docked components.

Drag and drop does auto conforming.

Drag and drop can be done from the file system - no library manager is needed at all to load content or apply poses, materials, etc.

Window can be made much skinnier than before while keeping the scroll bar on-screen - icons and other stuff wrap.

Huh?!
bagginsbill, what are those screenshots you posted? My Poser 8 does not have all those features, and I'd be already very happy if the #@!% category buttons decided to go on the line if the library is not large enough (which is the default size it chooses to open in).

Quote - Also, what is the reason you care so much what the document window size is?

For me, it's habit. I'm used to cameras and their WYSIWYG approach. While I could work on a square window for a CinemaScope render, it's a pain in the back and feels just wrong.

Quote -
Huh?!
bagginsbill, what are those screenshots you posted? My Poser 8 does not have all those features...

Er... you DO realize this is a thread about the impending release of Poser Pro 2010, right? Of course your P8 doesn't have all those features (neither, in fact, does the PP2010 public beta).

(BagginsBill)> Quote - Also, what is the reason you care so much what the document window size is? Is it because you render to the document window size?

...Or I care about size and aspect ratio approximately, and so a click to choose one of 1x1, 3x2, 4x3, 7x5, 16x9, and then a click for overall size [100, 200, 300, 400, etc.] seems to work quite nicely for me. The last click is a portrait or landscape radio button, but that doesn't change often.

Aspect ratio is my concern, so that I see what the camera will frame (even though I realize that the constrain aspect letterboxing is available) .  the top row of three UI radio buttons are all set to 16:9 in various sizes, all floating.  During initial setup I have a wide library, and several other control panels open, so the doc window is relatively small.  When doing final tweaks, I have a very large doc window with few control panels open.

The middle row of UI buttons are set to square for producing library thumbnails and avatars.

The bottom row changes with the need of the moment for a current project.

Quote - Er... you DO realize this is a thread about the impending release of Poser Pro 2010, right? Of course your P8 doesn't have all those features (neither, in fact, does the PP2010 public beta).

What I can't realize (unless I'm told so) is that the features bagginsbill is talking about are from the future Poser Pro. Thus my question.

BTW, are those library bug fixes going to be added to Poser (in some oncoming Service Pack)?

Quote - > Quote - Er... you DO realize this is a thread about the impending release of Poser Pro 2010, right? Of course your P8 doesn't have all those features (neither, in fact, does the PP2010 public beta).

What I can't realize (unless I'm told so) is that the features bagginsbill is talking about are from the future Poser Pro. Thus my question.

That is exactly what has been stated in this thread (which is why BB is posting them here)....

 how about the figures?

Well. I happily stand corrected on the "beta"....which is Poser 8 with a new splash screen as far as I can tell. The library was what was causing me problems and it appears to be re-designed to my satisfaction. It will only be $50 for me to upgrade (the price of a PS3 game) so I plan to make the jump. I hope they plan to have a plug-in for C4D 11.5 because those plug-ins work very well for me and I do do 80% of my rendering in C4D 11. I'd like a more direct route to C4D 11.5 so I can take advantage of the Mograf 2 dynamics and the more efficient rendering. Right now I export a Collada file which is fine for a lot of common animations....but I can't use Poser 8's really superior dynamic cloth and move it over into C4D 11.5. Basically, Poser/Daz Studio is where I start the pipeline.

Thanks again, bagginsbill for your informative words and photos.

So many new things in Poser Pro 2010 :-) I can see Bagginsbill have been hard at work. Looks great!! Just hope SM has fixed the library engine, so I don't have to use 2.5GB RAM just to start Poser :-/ Crossing my fingers!

My one wish is that the intermittent library bug will be fixed. I get a non-blank library pane about once every three times I start Poser Pro 2010 beta. Poser 8 too, so it isn't a new problem.

Windows XP Pro 64 bit. Internet Explorer 8 installed, but Firefox 3.5.8 is the default browser. AVG 8.5.425 Internet Security (9 won't install).

Quote - Also, what is the reason you care so much what the document window size is? Is it because you render to the document window size? I never do that anymore, and I wasn't doing that even with Poser 7.

For me, I prefer to have a clue what I am rendering and I also don't like to waste time displaying stuff that isn't going to be in the picture. One of my gripes about Poser 8 and DS. I just want to be able to use the library the quick way I have for years. That is my main gripe.

But I do have a clue of what I'm rendering. Within the preview, the part that will actually be rendered is highlighted. Maybe you don't have that turned on. I don't know what you mean by wasting time displaying stuff that isn't going to be rendered. Bits of floor or ceiling (if you're cropped vertically) or walls (if you're cropped horizontally) don't take any longer to preview.

Basically I've heard several non-issues about the window size - you have total control of the render size and you can see exactly what part is in the render and what isn't. In fact, being able to see a little bit outside the render as I adjust the composition is very handy.

Quote - I'm curious as to why you have your windows set to docking instead of floating then. Float them or any combination of them and then where they are, how big they are, show/hide - none of this will affect anything else.

I'm curious as to why Poser Pro 2010 Beta defaults with all windows docking. I didn't even know that they could be floated.

Now that I've tried it I find that I lose track of a bajillion windows so I went back to docked.

Quote - My one wish is that the intermittent library bug will be fixed. I get a non-blank library pane about once every three times I start Poser Pro 2010 beta. Poser 8 too, so it isn't a new problem.

Windows XP Pro 64 bit. Internet Explorer 8 installed, but Firefox 3.5.8 is the default browser. AVG 8.5.425 Internet Security (9 won't install).

XP Pro 64 bit. Are you running the 64-bit Poser? If so, you're not running the library in the browser at all, since it doesn't support 64-bit Flash. The 64-bit library is AIR. Are you an early public beta tester or one of the internal beta testers with access to the bug reporting system?

If you're only using the early public beta, you basically don't have any of the improvements and do not have the AIR version that doesn't use IE at all.

Quote - > Quote - I'm curious as to why you have your windows set to docking instead of floating then. Float them or any combination of them and then where they are, how big they are, show/hide - none of this will affect anything else.

I'm curious as to why Poser Pro 2010 Beta defaults with all windows docking. I didn't even know that they could be floated.

Now that I've tried it I find that I lose track of a bajillion windows so I went back to docked.

It defaults to docking because if we had a vote, the majority would prefer docked. Except for the library - I think it's better not docked, in its own application window, especially if I have two screens. Then I have the library on the second screen, maximized.

I'm running the public beta. Poser 8 also has the once in three tries library pane pain so I don't think it's AIR's fault. I upgraded Flash when I installed Poser 8 in order to get a library at all, and loopback is a trusted network. I wonder whether a timeout is too short, I have a huge 136GB runtime dating back four years.

I prefer docked windows because I have a single 2560 by 1600 monitor. To each his own. Everyone is a unique individual, just like everyone else. :)

I wasn't suggesting that it is a problem with AIR. I was saying that the AIR version is new, doesn't use IE, and you've never tried it.

I don't understand why SM only published a very early version of Poser Pro 2010 to the public beta. A lot of work was done in the last 6 weeks, and the point was to have a wider audience for testing. I would love to know if your problem was solved. The fact that you say it isn't fixed means nothing, because you're running code from 3 months ago. Basically you were running Poser 8 with some Pro features turned on.

I also don't understand why they didn't issue updated betas. I also gave up on monitoring the status update page after it wasn't updated for a long time.

When I use Poser I only use Poser Pro 2010 public Beta, it is very stable and I've encountered no bugs that Poser Pro or Poser 8 don't have.

I guess I'll find out in a couple of weeks or so because I am going to upgrade.

Going to bed now, it's after midnight here in the Eastern time zone.

OK, don't tell me we now need air & flash installed to be able to run Poser Pro 2010?

Quote - Also, what is the reason you care so much what the document window size is?

I'm old, set in my ways, and a stick in the mud. :)
I don't necessarily render to document size (I rarely do) but I try to work in the same aspect ratio as I render, so I know exactly what I see on the screen is what is going to be in the render.

Well okay, maybe not old, but I'm just... I dunno. :) I just like it how I like it.
(And I don't dock stuff on the right.)
Most of my stuff is up the top, or left, if I use it at all.
Don't ask me why, it just is.
I still don't like bits floating. I might some day change my mind, but at the moment... newp. :)

One thing I've noticed on the Pro 2010 beta is that the opengl rendering in the pose room works better for me.

I'm using an ATI mobility X1400 card in my laptop and have had some issues with it with Poser. Older drivers cause an issue with the mouse cursor - the cursor changes to the tool in use when over the work area but then sticks for several seconds before changing back to the standard arrow cursor when it's moved away from the work area, meaning I can't select a menu or another tool until it changes back. Had this with Poser 7 as well.

Later drivers and a setting in the poser.ini solved this issue but, in Poser 8, the later drivers have a knock on effect of causing the pose room preview to seemingly blur/defocus when the cursor is moved away. It's fine when working on a scene but as soon as the cursor moves away from the preview it pixelates slightly and blurs. Not a major issue so I've lived with it and it's only because of the lack of newer drivers and the fact that I'm currently using the laptop that it's there. Will be moving over to my main machine when I do my next build anyway so not an issue.

...however, with the exact same settings, I don't get this behaviour in Pro 2010 beta, even though, as I understand it, it's basically Poser 8 with some Pro features left enabled.

Quote - OK, don't tell me we now need air & flash installed to be able to run Poser Pro 2010?

It's P8 that requires Flash.

AIR doesn't need installation, so far as I know.

AIR does need installation, but PPRo 2010 installer does it for you. It also installs Python.

No software stands alone anymore - not since the days of assembly language in the 80s. If you build a program in C#, then the user has to have .NET installed. If you build it in C++, the user has to have the C++ runtime libraries installed. If you build it in Java, the user has to have the Java runtime installed. If you build it in Flex/AS3 the user has to have Flash or AIR installed. Get over it.

I'm really not interested in having another pre-release negotiation with users about engineering decisions. Suffice to say that some of us have to actually build stuff, and others just get to sit around complaining about how that was done.

Thanks for the info BB :-)

I'll then skip PPro 2010, I really don't need another extra thing from Adobe installed I never use, just to run Poser.

Or.... I could do the same as I did with Poser 8, remove all the flex related items, may work as well with Poser Pro 2010.

Yep - you can gut PPro's lib GUI just the same as P8.

I have no problem with that idea. I absolutely agree that it is impossible to build any component in such a way that everybody is satisfied. But the good thing is this is built with what is called "modularity in use". Modularity means you can add, delete, or swap components, and "in use" means it isn't just the manufacturer who can do it, but end users.

Architecturally, the fact that the lib GUI is a separate component that communicates with Poser via messages is a big boon here. 

What I don't agree with is that Flex is a mistake. There are literally tens of thousands of P8 users who are very happy with the new library prefer it both for speed and ease of use. Some minority experience the opposite. That's the nature of the software business.

I experienced a huge slowdown of Poser 8 and Poser Pro 2010 public beta over the last month (and almost every other application). It was getting worse each day. I updated Flash and my video card drivers (again), but that did not help.

I had previously experienced a problem with a mouse that would not work in Poser Pro 2010 beta, but worked in every other application. This time I could not find a hardware problem.

I stopped every process that I could, and I could not find any program running in Task Manager taking up memory or CPU time. But, Task Manager cannot see everything. So, I started uninstalling programs that I had recently installed. A DVD program seemed to be the problem. With that program gone, my Poser and everything else is running much better (though the library is still a little slow).

Some of these problems would be things that the SM/Poser product support team could not figure out for me. At times, we have to delve into our own systems and help ourselves. Or failing that, get help from a wider community like here.

Incidentally, I am still occasionally losing control of Poser Pro 2010 beta to a renegade session of the Poser animation loop. I have to get to one of the animation windows and stop the loop to regain control of the program. I cannot reproduce this, it just happens. When I notice that I cannot make Poser do anything, I head for an animation window, and click the stop button. Then control returns.

I am looking forward to the adventure of using Poser Pro 2010 retail version. I am excited that SM is investing in the product line, and that the Poser development team has a vision for the future evolution of this application. :)

Now, if they would only turn bagginsbill loose to work on the material room, and FireFly...

LMK

Quote - But I do have a clue of what I'm rendering. Within the preview, the part that will actually be rendered is highlighted. Maybe you don't have that turned on. I don't know what you mean by wasting time displaying stuff that isn't going to be rendered. Bits of floor or ceiling (if you're cropped vertically) or walls (if you're cropped horizontally) don't take any longer to preview.

Basically I've heard several non-issues about the window size - you have total control of the render size and you can see exactly what part is in the render and what isn't. In fact, being able to see a little bit outside the render as I adjust the composition is very handy.

It does show but it is isn't close to the correct scale and I would rather see it be closer in proportion than a square, which is normally what is showing. And it does waste a lot of time displaying. If you have a complex scene with parts off camera, casting shadows or just cropped, they all show so you have to deal with memory previewing them even if they will never be in the render. It can be a little handy to see a little bit but seeing twice as much as the actual shape of the render is a bit ridiculous.

My biggest issue with the program, honestly, is the part that you are the closest too, the library. If the auto expand triangle worked fine I would shut up and adopt it in a heartbeat. That is my biggest gripe, requiring me to waste so much time clicking open and clicking close all the folders when I could just navigate to them, if it worked. In Poser 8, at least, it doesn't.

The flyout menus constrained to the window and unable to go outside is, unfortunately, one of the more difficult design limitations to get around in Flex. I would have fixed it, but there isn't any easy or even moderately difficult way to do it.

I have thought of ways to do it, but it's a lot of work. Basically the menus have to be shown by Poser, not by the library GUI.

Maybe we can make that work in an updater.

So the only real way to get around it so it works, at this time, is to make the library really wide? I am just trying to figure out a way that doesn't involve a click fest.

Is there a way in Flex to make the window wider than it appears (i.e. part of it transparent)? Wouldn't that solve the issue, or am I misunderstanding the problem?

Thanks a lot for the insight in the new library BB!! To me this looks as if many of the complaints about the library where heard!

Quote - So the only real way to get around it so it works, at this time, is to make the library really wide? I am just trying to figure out a way that doesn't involve a click fest.

I'm not sure what you mean by click fest. While it is true that a skinny window makes the menus overlap as they fly out, the number of clicks is identical. Which is to say, 2.

Quote - Is there a way in Flex to make the window wider than it appears (i.e. part of it transparent)? Wouldn't that solve the issue, or am I misunderstanding the problem?

If the window is on the right side of your screen, then even if it were wider but transparent, putting the menus off the screen isn't much use.

If the window is skinny and on the left, but transparent, that would solve the problem.

However, it isn't possible to do that. The embedded Flash version (found in P8) cannot be wider than the panel that contains it.

The new AIR version that has its own application window is not docked and there isn't much reason to make it skinny. So the problem doesn't really exist in that version. There is no motivation to make it skinny. You can hide it with a single click and show it again with a single click. (There is a button on the Poser window in the upper right that restores the library application window with just one click. Also there is a hotkey sequence to do the same.)

The green arrow is the button that restores the library window if it is minimized.

The library window automatically minimizes when Poser has a modal dialog, such as when you are prompted for a save file name or whatever.

I imagine someone is going to come along and say "But Baggins, if you were on a laptop, you wouldn't have so much room. Try this on a laptop and tell me how this helps."

This screenshot **is from my laptop.

**My desktop has twice this much space.

Quote - This screenshot **is from my laptop.
**

1920x1200?

Yes.

Quote - Basically I've heard several non-issues about the window size

What's wrong with wanting a WYSIWYG preview? Especially given it existed in Poser before?
I mean, is it really that hard to implement, given some people want it?

Quote - I'm really not interested in having another pre-release negotiation with users about engineering decisions. Suffice to say that some of us have to actually build stuff, and others just get to sit around complaining about how that was done.

Hey, keep the lid on arrogance, will you. You never worked in Real Life, did you? Poser isn't a freebie, there is a thing called a "customer", who is actually supposed to pay your wages. You are entitled to despise the (l)users paying money for your work, but keep it in private.

My decision to upgrade is taken - I will not. Get lost, Smith Micro.
I'm outa here, no need to reply.

"some of us have to actually build stuff, and others just get to sit around complaining about how that was done."

I didn't like that coment much either as a consumer.

tough.

you seen the sheer amount of attacks leveled at SM/Poser staff? hmm?

no wonder they occasionally snap back.

ye gods....

Quote - "some of us have to actually build stuff, and others just get to sit around complaining about how that was done."

I didn't like that coment much either as a consumer.

Maybe you should read it context. It had nothing to do with rty or anyone else concerned about functionality or design or anything of the sort. BB's statement was a response to someone saying "I won't buy it if it requires Flex." His point is that pretty much every piece of software on the face of the earth (that wasn't coded in 1985) requires an underlying architecture. It wasn't a complaint against consumers at all, because it wasn't a comment about what is implemented or how well, but the underlying architecture.

ok, but as a paying customer and one who has been with poser since ver 3 I don't need to see those kind of remarks.

People have a right to ask pre purchase questions.

btw as an app developer myself I know who puts food on my table and realize they may not have the same understanding of how much work it takes to build a complex app that is easy enough for the end user.

Bagginsbill,  I have to agree with the comments about complaints with the interface.  SM issued a survey a while back specifically asking users want they wanted from the software.   It seems to be a flawed assumption that your opinion should be relied upon alone while other users' input should be dismissed.  Concerns and questions were raised - it's no reason to be defensive especially if you want the software to sell well.  Believe it or not there are plenty of talented people in the community who would be just as capable of making great contributions to Poser's development if they were provided with the same opportunity.  Your contributions are appreciated, but let's keep things in perspective.

Using the preview window as the size of the render has some benefits as the user knows where to place items in the scene so that they show up in the right place in the render.  It's a good way for beginners and intermediate users to get the renders they want.  Personally, I could care less about the new library options - as long as I can find and load it - I'm good.  My concern is with the development of and integration between the content and the software: more realistic human figures (over the Poser 8 crap), soft body physics on figures, more dynamic clothing and hair, stick options (like in Studio 4) to keep part of a figure locked to a particular position, etc.

Library options and render window settings aren't really of concern to me.  I'm open-minded, but it will probably require some more significant features before I'm enticed to upgrade.

"It seems to be a flawed assumption that your opinion should be relied upon alone while other users' input should be dismissed.  "

who says it was? you were at the meetings?

you say "  Your contributions are appreciated, but let's keep things in perspective." yet you are not doing the same by assuming the design is BB's alone. but hey. he's easy to unload on since he's here.

sorry if this offends you but it certainly offends me when some one assumes things that they have no idea on.

Ted, after four years I think we have to part, luckily we don't have kids:) DAZ3D won.

Quote - "It seems to be a flawed assumption that your opinion should be relied upon alone while other users' input should be dismissed.  "

who says it was? you were at the meetings?

you say "  Your contributions are appreciated, but let's keep things in perspective." yet you are not doing the same by assuming the design is BB's alone. but hey. he's easy to unload on since he's here.

sorry if this offends you but it certainly offends me when some one assumes things that they have no idea on.

A user here asks a question to another user with inside knowledge about the development of the software.  That user was rebuked for raising concerns and expressing preferences.  No doubt that a multitude of individuals were involved in the development process.  I never assumed Bagginsbill is the sole contributor to Poser.  It's his response to another user that I take issue with.   The opinions of the other user here were significantly discounted.  Please remember that this is a product that is intend to sell.

There is no reason to be defensive and I'm not offended.  I have stated my views as you have stated yours.  But it is not necessary to have an inside knowledge of the workings of a company to see the manner in which concerns from consumers are addressed.  Further, this is the poser forum, where this type of criticism is meant to be explored.   Nobody is being unloaded on - and if you think this the case then maybe these forums have become way too sensitive.  Everyone, including Bagginsbill, has chosen to post to this topic - so there shouldn't be any surprise that there is some impassioned views leading to some disagreement.  Otherwise, why would anyone care to even comment?

Friendly reminder, people.  So far there's nowt to worry about but please don't let this debate slide towards mud slinging, name calling and handbag swinging.  :)

Just remember I have a pickaxe handle with nails through the end for just such occurrences.  And I have chicken pox - yes really - so I'm not in a greatly forgiving frame of mind.  :biggrin: 

Quote - Friendly reminder, people.  So far there's nowt to worry about but please don't let this debate slide towards mud slinging, name calling and handbag swinging.  :)

Just remember I have a pickaxe handle with nails through the end for just such occurrences.  And I have chicken pox - yes really - so I'm not in a greatly forgiving frame of mind.  :biggrin: 

<Holds Up Two Fingers in a Cross to Ward off the Pox and backs away quickly!>