Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm pretty sure Rand meant Antonia in general. Those not directly in the know probably wouldn't know that Antonia WM is something new.

Check your Poser forum to see this is not true.

sure those not in the know won't know. By definition? I know next to nothing about Antonia WM for example. Maybe less.

Click here

A long thread, so you may need to go through quite a few to get to the info:-

Click here

Now back to the current thread.

All the best.

LROG

Really. Who cares if he knew or didn't know. He's a DS user. Do we really need to argue this?

Laurie

I just wanted to poke my head in to mention that I have been following this thread listening to the concerns that are mentioned (hopefully it wont get handed back to me). As Jenx mentioned it was not uncommon for me to post over hear in the past. With the management change at DAZ I am now freed up to spend more of my time communicating with and listening to customers. That is something I enjoy 100x more than dealing with demanding board members, cash flow mgt. etc. I am excited about the management change because now I can do more of what I love.

To borrow again from Monte Python (like Randy did) Randy reminds me of the brave knight who looses an arm and still and calls it a minor flesh wound. What I mean by that is although Genesis has been successful from a financial perspective as he suggested, the fact that it does not work in Poser does hurt. It hurts because it is polarizing the community and that is not good for anyone. People are spending more time arguing rather than enjoying creating art. I will say that finding a way to get people access to Genesis (or at least V5) in Poser is at the top of my list of priorities figure out how to get done. The order it very tall but definitely something we see as very important.

In hearing the concerns around the installers etc. I will see if there are ways to will serve a broader group of people with the way we implement it. I will make sure that your concerns are voiced clearly to the engineering team so they can see if there are solutions.

Since Randy is leading this, I will let him continue to respond as he as been but I want to let you know that I am taking note of concerns expressed here. I do also want to apologize for the numberous mistakes we have made with people individually and collective and I hope that we can improve on those things in the future (I commit to do what I can to change things for the better).

Sincerely,

Dan Farr

Quote DAZ_Rand, "What we want to do is implement something you wont have to think about."

I like thinking, I think anyone using a computer should know how to think.  What I don't like is a computer or piece of software that thinks it knows what is best for me.  I have my content arranged in a system that would drive other people insane but works for me.  I don't want some download manager messing with it.  Stop trying to cuddle the newbies at the expense of the grumpy old farts like me.  To be honest I have never had any real problems using the installer but that is only to me understanding the concept of folder paths and the runtime system.  With proper documentation newbies hopefully wouldn't be so lost.  The big reason I prefer zips over installer is with zips it is easier to recover just a few files instead of re-installing.  How many of us haven't written over a texture file or similar.

Dan:

Thanks for dropping in.  As a longtime poser and Carrara user, I would suggest that zip files seem to be universally accepted for content distribution.  Unless the use of this format presents an existential threat (hard to fathom), I would respectfully suggest that DAZ drop the long standing resistance and adopt a format which is usable by all, from novice to old pro.

Regards,

Klebnor

Unfortunately, for Mac users zip files can be problematic. Up until Lion, unless you used a utility or manually placed files, extracting zip files to a directory in effect deleted the old contents and replaced it the contents of a zip file.... and I've done this. Luckily it setting up a new machine from a backup, so I didn't lose anything. 

Installers prevent situations like this from happening. 

I don't have issues with the installers, aside from there needs to be better options for the default installer, such as for installing a outfit. I don't need an uninstaller or an icon being installed to the desktop for content... plugins or program installs this may work for but not installing content. Also it would be nice to have batch options for installing, especially when you have a several hundred to a gig of content to install. I miss using the rendo utility for installing the daz installers, since it was nice to drop my installers in a directory and set it to run while i watched tv.

If you need to keep yourself legally protected with installers, that's fine, but the installers need to optimized so i'm not doing multiple clicks for things that don't need it. 

Also, I hope the installers will not be replaced by download managers. I had to clean up download managers and utilities that fouled up my antivirus and almost brought down my PC, so I like to keep the things I have to install and run in the background to a minimum and save those resources for my actual work. I'd suggest you look at how the earlier version of your installers work (probably from 2008-2009) and use that as a base... those were a lot simpler and cleaner to use.

Dan,

I will add my thanks to you for dropping in.  Sadly it seems rare at the moment to have such a measured well thought out response to the 'Futures' debate.  By that I do not mean this thread, which I think is a great idea and a step in the right direction.

It would be wrong of me to try blame anyone for what has happened but I do feel the debate, up and to recently, has had a negative impact on Daz/Poser community as a whole.  I hope your efforts, and that of Randy, can have the positive impact that your last post is clearly aimed at bringing about.

Hi Sir Randall The Brave-and M4, er uhm Dan! :-)

 Good to hear from you! I do remember when you used to visit the forums.

And I think most of what I was going to say-has been said-except the ruder aspects-can't see getting into that when this is a FUN hobby for me.

I do understand the various reasons for creating Genesis, I also remember (believing at the time) that part of the reason for creating studio was uncertainty with Poser when metacreations split up.

Genesis/V5 is brilliant btw (qualifying the statement that I want what everyone else wants). A female human figure-not necessarily a universal mesh- with higher poly count-similar to V4.

Thanx for all the advice on how to make things easier on my resource...I am taking some notes.

Its good to see something productive again LOL

Rawn

Quote - Thanx for all the advice on how to make things easier on my resource...I am taking some notes.

Its good to see something productive again LOL

 

Rawn

I know the utter frustration of not being able to do anthing else with your computer ;).

Laurie

Just for the record:

Quote - 3a.  Making us wait 18 months or so for M4 after the release of V4.  Contempt.

There were a number of problems with M4 that delayed its release.  Releasing it sooner would have meant releasing a seriously flawed figure.

Quote - 3b.  After releasing M4 - No clothing content, but one of the first items was a tutu.  Really?  A tutu.  That wasn't funny.  That was giving the users the finger.  Someone should have been fired over that.

M4 was released in October 2008.  The tutu (which was for the Freak) was released in late August 2009-- ten months later.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote -

... As a matter of personal taste, I do not care for her looks, and though she beds quite well, I do not necessarily agree that she bends better ...

Rand, this quote alone makes this thread worthwhile.

You've obviously got to know Antonia far better than you're letting on :-)

 

I am a content product manager... it would be silly for me not to research the competition ;)

Ha! Of course!

I was just amused by the phrase 'she beds quite well' ... in my country that has other connotations :-)

unfortunately humorous typo :D

Quote - You might be surprised how many people have looked at Antonia....but opinions on its overall usability may vary, particularly by some of the professionals in this industry. So some are just being poilite and witholding their comments, rather than see things get inflamed.

However out of respect to the OP I think  it better suited that I comment on daz specific issues.

I have found it very hard to get involved with daz studio. I found it very unintuitive, but when version 4 came out, I found it to be much more user friendly (to me) than any previous version. To me it flows like I would expect a 3d application to work. But even that was not enough to encourage me to get serious about the program.

What did push me into finally trying it was the versistility of the genesis figure. Say what you will about it and its functionality in poser, but in daz studio itself, it has HUGE potential. I am able to make creatures using it that I could not even dream of with earlier generation figures. So I totally appreaciate all the tech that is behind genesis and ds4.
I am an artist, so what the tech actually is or how it works doesnt matter to me, what matters is what I am able to do with it.

That said is where my issues with ds4 come up. I am still not able to get renders that look as good as I do with poser. I admit that alot may be due to my own ignarance of the program, so I am still trying to learn. But that said...it is not easy to go from being able to get good renders relatively quick in poser to spend hours and hours in ds and still not have things look good. I think a big problem for me is the lights. It seems every light set does things differently, so there is no real consistancy when rendering scenes. Maybe this simply means that the lights are more versitile in ds and have more options, but the options are useless to me if I cant get them to work how i want.

I also dont like how ds4 eats up all my systems resources when rendering. I literally have to set up a render and then go away from the coumputer for hours, becaue I cannot do anything. This is a big issue for me. ds used to render so fast compared to poser, but somewhere along the way, it turned into a hog and that is killing me now.

So while I do like how ds4 and genesis are growing, and I LOVE the versistility of genesis as a figure and how all my old content works nicely on the new figure, there are still some overall functional issues i like to see worked on. But I do realize that ds4 is still the new kid on the block, I am sure it will get refined as it grows, it took poser a LONG time before it was up to the point of doing serious art as well. I like the ds4 innovations and look forward to seeing how they grow.

 

Rawn

There are new improvements to the implementation of 3DLight in Studio 4.1. Ive found render times to be much quicker.

Perhaps we will be able to shed some light on lights in our docs and new lesson strips that are in the works. Lesson Strips are in-app tutorial scritps that walk you through tutorials. 

I would be happy to talk with you about lighting offline if it would help in the meantime.

"...and having seen that Penguinisto has already said pretty much what I was about to say."

Same here.

Cheers

Randy and Dan, thank you for starting and participating in this thread. I use both Poser and DAZ Studio, along with other software... both have their positives and uses. I have a hard time believing that sharp individuals would have a hard time using either. I really have to attribute many issues to what Penguinisto posted and that comes from many years of visiting all the related forums and those of other software vendors.

I would feel better as well to possess the files purchased from DAZ and all other vendors. Maybe you could change the EULA approval to the download or better yet - the point of purchase. I have to approve a TOS or similar whenever I pay a bill online. Maybe you could do the same in your new store. Simpler is better, but since Mac and PC are still different, a simple installer may be the way to go with the EULA at the point of purchase. That would even be better for you in court as you would have the record of the transaction and proof of EULA acceptance easily at hand for legal. Anything else written in legalese could be included in the download file for the user's records.

Thanks again for providing the info and help!

Kevin

Quote - I find it interesting that he says that he is familiar with Antonia WM when it was just released yesterday.

 

Bill

Its not all that interesting is it?

Ive been following Antoina for a long time. I am on these forums a lot and I do my research.  Just because I work for DAZ does not mean that I am not a thriving member of the 3D art community. I have been involved since the first day Poser 1 was released and used Poser exclusively up until Version 8.

While I have been a major fan of DAZ 3D since Zygote... I am only recently an employee (april 2011) One of the reasons I was seen as an asset was my connection to this community and my longtime experience in the field.

I dont see the use of any tool as any reason to band together in loyal groups. HAMMERS YEAH!!!! Screw those Wrench Guys!!! Hammers are where its at!!!!  LOL... to me DS and Poser are tools for creating art no different than charcoal pastels and paint.  They can both live together peacefully in your art toolbox and each can be used to their strengths in your pursuit of the perfect expression of your artistic soul.

Just because I use one or the other more does not mean I shut off my intake of information and sequester myself away from those who have different preferences.

In short... dont be surprised. Im here a lot and I like to know whats up and I love a good product that will help me make art no matter where it comes from.

Quote - Funny how someone with proper knowledge of a horse's anatomy doesn't get shut down and ridiculed as someone (or make that plural) with proper knowledge of human anatomy did (back in the other place). It smells fishy.

But anyway, some seem to forget that there really aren't only Poser users who are unhappy with how things are going. Some of us longtime DS users are more than happy to make the switch in programs due to the treatment received. Some of us are even being called traitors.

What of it?

Horse anatomy may vary a lot, but i think there is a lot mor generalization when you start talking about animals so there isnt as much emotion in it.

The human body has so many variations that one representation of any part of it can seem alien to another example. its very hard to come up with one presentation that will connect with everyones personal perceptions.

When we were making the V5 Genitalia for example I can tell you that none of you girls... not one... look the same. its like fingerprints. Which shape do you choose? I dont mean to be crass with that example, its just the latest example of it that I had to deal with.

If I recall correctly, you had opinions on our presentation of human anatomy that were soundly rebuked... sorry about that.

I dont think its fair to hold the company DAZ 3D responsible for some of the things said by its fans.  In your case, there were people who disagreed with your medical assessment of the anatomy in question but it wasn't the company shutting you down.

Our Forum users do not represent the company viewpoint. they do not speak for us and should not be confused with or thought of as being synonymouswith DAZ 3D. Even employees or representitives can go off reservation and not accurately express the company perspective.

I dont know of a DAZ Employee who would have called you a traitor.

From my perspective you can betray a piece of software. I really wish we could all release our irrational defense of particular art tools and get over it.

Quote - I think Daz is biting off its nose to spite its face, as the old sayig goes, by not making Vicky 5 compatible with Poser. I do not have the money to invest in yet another 3D program that requires all sorts of plugins at additional costs to do what Poser does. Ex. The cloth room. Besides, I have the free version of Daz Studio 4 and can't figure it out. It is not intuitive at all,  or my version is not working!

There is a common misunderstanding that is re-enforced by your post here that V5 is somehow equal to V4 in its individual scope.  That somehow we set out to create another new figure and exclude Poser users yet again.

The fact is simply this. V5 isnt a new figure, its an addition to Genesis. A spectacular addition that pushes the boundries of the tech... but an addition nonetheless. Its a new Paradigm that shares very little with the previous one. We are committed to the Genesis platform because we believe that it has merit and we are seeking to bring it to Poser and other 3D environments. V5 is just another iteration of it. We could no more "Make V5 Poser compatible" than we can Genesis because it IS Genesis.

Having said that... we are working on it. :D

Quote - Is Daz ever going to address the issue of DS not working with a WACOM mouse? Works with the pen, but not with the mouse.

Have you submitted this as a feature request and/or bug?

Rand - Thank you for answering, :) I wasn't holding the company responsible for what was said by the fans, I do however hold some of its staff responsible for the reason I was given as to why my posts were removed. I will not discuss the details here for obvious reasons, so feel free to PM me if need be. I completely understand the fact that there is not one single human being that looks like the other; cloning is not that advanced yet, but there are some basic anatomy rules that need to be followed for every human being. Honestly? There is not one 3D human model I've seen that is within the hobbyist's price range that follows those rules, not Genesis, not V4, not V3, not Antonia, not Jessie, not one. Does that stop me from using them? Not at all. It's all art after all and I have yet to render a single "normal" run of the mill human (all of my characters are metahuman, aliens, etc). It's the fact that to some (I will NOT generalize here, mind you) do not allow differing opinions to be expressed, no matter how much the OP is trying to be civil, that give me a sour taste in the mough. But I digress. Happened there, not here.

As for the traitor name calling, no worries, it wasn't staff doing so. Again, more details? Feel free to PM me.

Thanks again.

Quote -
I dont know of a DAZ Employee who would have called you a traitor.

From my perspective you can betray a piece of software. I really wish we could all release our irrational defense of particular art tools and get over it.

that should have read:

From my perspective you CAN'T betray a piece of software. I really wish we could all release our irrational defense of particular art tools and get over it.

sorry

ok... i spent the morning here and I need to get on with my day... ill be back tonight sometime.

Quote - that should have read: From my perspective you CAN'T betray a piece of software. I really wish we could all release our irrational defense of particular art tools and get over it.

 

sorry

It's ok, and I completely agree. Yes, I want to start using Poser, but will I ever drop DS3A? Nope. Like it too much. I even have DS4A and I will be making the effort to learn it. There is one thing in DS3 that Poser doesn't have that I honestly don't know how Poser users do without and that's Morph Follower, so believe you me, I'll be using both programs. My... issue... and I hate using that word, really, is not with DS, Poser, Genesis, V4, etc, it's more with the general atmosphere and attitude that sprung up since the release, and even before.

Quote - I am certainly sorry for your troubles. The only thing I can possibly say is that it is not a good business model for us to try to support every aging computer platform. Try playing one of the latest games on an older system... ouch!  We certainly do care about you but there will be limits we must draw when it comes to system requirements and invariably there will be a certain percentage of people who fall below the minimum. I wish it wasn’t so.

...so basically we are "written off" because those of us on limited budgets don't have the disposable income to buy a big ticket item like a new computer every couple of years.

I have been with Daz since 2007, agreeably not as long as others, but was excited that with Studio, I found a CG application that not only didn’t require a super computer or high performance CAD workstation, but also "talked to me" in a language I could understand.  Studio2.3 was probably the last really decent version of the application even given the memory leaks it suffered from.

I would have been be content to just continue on with 2.3 but when technical and soon afterwards vendor support ended following the rollout of 3.0 (along with promises that the persistent memory issues in prevoius versions would be resolved) I felt I had no other choice but to upgrade.  However, the memory leak and bloating issues were still there and actually became worse with a couple subsequent "patches". I'm not the only one who noticed this either.

In addition, the new 3Delight render engine, which was hyped to be better and faster was neither (granted, due in part to my system's specs as I was and still am working in 32 bit).  I also noticed an increase in the frequency of application crashes during the render process compared with 2.3 which is where the frustration began to rise. Scenes of a complexity level similar to ones I did even as far back as ver 1.7 would simply refuse to render in ver. 3.

Instead of addressing the core issues (which many of us brought up in the forums and through support tickets), updates, particularly in the months prior to the release of ver. 4, began to focus on the addition of new features rather than fixes, and Studio 3 began to appear as if it was becoming nothing more than a test-bed for the next version (which already had it's own development track).  To me this was a waste of development resources for it did nothing to improve the performance and quality of the (then) current core programme.  What we were left with in the end was a still broken 3.x with a couple new "shinies" that still suffered from memory management issues which plagued it since its release two and a half years ago.

However once again, we no longer have any recourse as technical (and apparently vendor) support for 3.x has been discontinued with the rollout of 4.0.

...so it begins anew, but this time without some of us like myself who have been involved for some time now (since ver 1.5) and been faithful supporters of Daz3D.

Without Daz Studio I never would have found a new way to continue in my art.  At the time 250$ for Poser5 was more than I could afford, especially not knowing what I was getting into at the time. While some in other camps "poo-pooed" (I can say that here can't I?) Studio's dependence on plugins, I found it a more affordable way to become involved as I could do so a step or two at a time instead of having to come up with a large lump sum up front. It also allowed me to tailor the application to my personal needs and style without paying for features I didn't need. True, in the long run it ends up costing more but when you are on a limited budget it's often an easier route to take.

3Advanced and it's successors, 4 basic (which will no longer be free after the intro offer expires) 4A and 4Pro have broken that nice mould. Heck, I rarely if ever use many of the "built in" features of 3A as I only do still pics and my system cannot handle the excess memory load some of the built in features like UberEnvironment and the HSS impose.

As I mentioned over in the Daz forums, I agree that Genesis is a major stride forward not just because of the improved joint bending and weight mapping but because it also can combine character morphs in a way the Figure Mixer in 3.x couldn't, and do it so more efficiently.  Given time and practise, I feel almost anything could be possible with it, which for me, included developing characters for an SF story in graphic novel format which has been shelved for years. However that is all moot as the technical stakes have been raised beyond the limit of my means.

...this is the "thank you" I get for all the support I have given Daz3D over the last four years, not only with my hard earned cash, but discussion on other forums and in person with others.

...oh and I don't do computer games as I'd rather be spending my time (and money) doing something more productive and meaningful, like 3D CG.

I'm personally skeptical that any open discussion can take place with DAZ using the internet forum medium.  (Disclaimer: I have had substantive discusions with Rand and Dan by email.)

So a few questions for Rand and Dan to think about:

• How can DAZ hope to recapture the goodwill of the Poser customer base through an uncontrolled policy of censorship and bans on their own forums?   This is where the discussion should have been taking place.  Why come here to a third parties forums when you're unwilling to discuss the issues in your own house, so to speak?   When will you revamp your forum policies so that you can get feedback from all your customer base?
• As a former DAZ PA, I felt strongly pressured by DAZ to stop work on V4/M4 series products and focus all my efforts on DS4 & Genesis.   Since DAZ as a Broker is always at the concent of DAZ to accept a product, this is clearly attempting to drive PAs in a specific direction.   Shouldn't DAZ just be clear about this?
• DAZ's PA process and how it selects what to broker is fundamentally opaque.   There seems to be no written criteria as to what DAZ wants from PAs and has to be obtained purely from folklore and statements by PA team managers in a non-public forum.   Shouldn't DAZ make clear what they want to broker, for what tehcnologies, in a public way?   
• Why was Poser compatibility such a low priority in the Genesis release cycle?   Should DAZ have made that an up front need?   Much of the angst now felt by customers and PAs alike is that the compatibility appears (I am not saying it is, but appears) to be of a low priority.
• Why has the necessary documentation and SDKs been so absense, that third parties have been somewhat disabled from filling the gap?   (I applaud D3D's work at moving morphs, at least one way, into DS4.)   A major discouragement is that the DSF format is poorly documented and is not, at least as of today, likely to be fully stable.   This disables thrid parties from improving Genesis to Poser (and vice-versa).  Should DAZ put a much higher priority on documentation and format stability to reduce the risks for 3rd parties. 
• DAZ and its followers frequently excoriate (always wanted to use that word in a post) SM for not adopting DAZ technologies.   Has DAZ adopted capsule zones and dependent parameters in DS4?  PMDs?  Can you please show us your roadmap to make DS4 more compatible with existent poser technologies.
• While we're on the subject of technology, what about shader tree/map compatibility with poser?   For me this has been near the #1 reason why DS4 has trouble with existing Poser content created by 3rd parties (including some DAZ brokered artists.)
• When will DAZ support preview of realistic light fall-offs in DS4?   How about preview of those falloffs?   The dependency on plugins for lighting features is a productivity killer.

I'm not saying these things to be mean to DAZ.   I wish DAZ well and continue to by content from DAZ almost every week, but my own journey as longtime customer of DAZ, becoming a PA, and then becoming an ex-PA have made me keenly sensitive to the business and technical issues raised above.   DAZ has asked to command a premium price for its content, and to win my business it needs to start acting like a premium business.

Cheers!

-Kerwin

[Wow!  Nearly 20 posts at Renderosity in 12 years!   I'm becomming dangerously outspoken! :) ]

Quote - - As a former DAZ PA, I felt strongly pressured by DAZ to stop work on V4/M4 series products and focus all my efforts on DS4 & Genesis.   Since DAZ as a Broker is always at the concent of DAZ to accept a product, this is clearly attempting to drive PAs in a specific direction.   Shouldn't DAZ just be clear about this?

 

If I may - Id like to disagree with this most egregious sentiment. I JUST released a Generation 4 product on DAZ during the PA sale, as did other PA's. They EVEN gave me a newsletter for it (which is a surprising move for a company that you are saying is supposedly refusing such) They did not force me to go in a different direction (but urged me to, for my own benefit - ultimately, the choice was left up to me) They are still accepting Generation 4 content and have loudly stated that they will continue to as long as there is a demand for it, and that their refusal of generation 4 content is nothing more than a rumor that is being spread erroneously.

Randall,

What improvements does the Poser SR bring for the exporter?

Quote - Installers are simply our preferred method and we are within our rights to use the method we prefer. We have heard the request to do simple zip files and as I have already stated... and with all due respect... that is just not a direction we wish to go in. I would be happy to listen to any other ideas.

Quote - ...don't have them throw useless folders like "Templates", "Readme", "Data", etc.  into the Studio "runtime" tree.  It is an absolute mess compared to the Poser one and is so hapazardly organised.

Quote - None of those folders go into the Runtime folder (well, not sure about templates but they are usually a separate installer you can point where you like) - they go beside it. Some Renderosity and RDNA merchants, and many freebie makers, do put their readmes in the Runtime folder or in a sub-folder thereof. The Support folder for the metadata does go in the Runtime folder, however - possibly to make sure it isn't showing in the Content palette in DS3.

...please refer to image above.

These are a collection of screenshots from my Studio "Runtime" folder content tree in S3A.  All of the blue highlighted selections are non-content folders (e.g. contain nothing that can be loaded into a scene) which are clearly the result of Daz installers as can be seen from the folder names.  When I install content from Zip files, I do so manually by first extracting to a temp. folder and then moving the individual component folders (Geometries, Characters, Poses, etc.) into their proper locations.  Templates, Readmes & the like go into separate folders outside of the Studio application.

Content "Data" folders, while important for the application, should not be visible anywhere in the Content tab.

This is just downright sloppy programming and I'm not even a programmer.

testing... testing... this thing on???

Quote -
...you are saying is supposedly refusing such...

..refusal of generation 4 content is nothing more than a rumor ..

I did not say any such thing...please do not put words in my mouth.   I simply said that DAZ has been applying pressure in a paticular direction (Genesis) and has made clear (to me at least) a preference for that particular direction.  I also indicated the process for accepting or rejecting 4th gen content is not transparent, which does not state what DAZ will or will not accept to broker.   There is a difference.  I believe the forum mods her at rendo have pretty clearly asked (like three times) for us to pose quesitons to DAZ and let DAZ answer, so I will not belabor this further.   My questions are intended to elicit specific answers of policy from the DAZ representives who initiatied the dialog.

-K

I only jumped in and stated this, because I was in a unique position to kind of help squash that rumor (being that I did just release a gen 4 pack and got a newsletter to boot) I have no intentions on replacing DAZ admin as an official word on anything.

Quote - > Quote -

... As a matter of personal taste, I do not care for her looks, and though she beds quite well, I do not necessarily agree that she bends better ...

Rand, this quote alone makes this thread worthwhile.

You've obviously got to know Antonia far better than you're letting on :-)

She never told us anything about this, Snarly, and we work with her every day! :woot:

Trying to put things civilly now. 

Genesis and V5 won't work in poser, I really don't care.

Miki3 won't work in DS, also, I don't care.  I don't have either of them and probably won't.

I may sound hostile to DAZ, but in reality, I'm not.  I am disgusted that DS is known, as well as Cararra, for lack of documentation. 

A lot of the other arguments, like the lack of "morph follower" in Poser, okay, so instead, I use dynamic cloth to get the same result.  A lot of dynamic cloth can be used between different figures with little or no tweaking needed.

Characters, currently I'm on the way to making Kate into something in the sixteen to eighteen year old bracket, not hard, and the only thing I'm using is Poser.  (Not hard, but time consuming, very time consuming.)

Lousy mesh that doesn't bend right, I don't care much either.  I clothe almost everone, so how their butt bends, big deal.  I'll never see the tearing and compression. 

So most of the arguments are set aside except what am I comfortable working with.  In reality, that's the only question that counts for anything.  Were there documentation available for DS4 that I could even print a few pertinent pages of to work with, I may be tempted to give it a try.  Without it, well, I tried, I failed, and frustration is not a good thing. 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -

... As a matter of personal taste, I do not care for her looks, and though she beds quite well, I do not necessarily agree that she bends better ...

Rand, this quote alone makes this thread worthwhile.

You've obviously got to know Antonia far better than you're letting on :-)

 

I am a content product manager... it would be silly for me not to research the competition ;)

You take your research seriously, don't you, Rand?

Quote - We could no more "Make V5 Poser compatible" than we can Genesis because it IS Genesis.

I think we should start a betting pool as to how many times you're going to have to repeat that. 

Quote - Having said that... we are working on it. :D

Randall, do you have any "solid" information as to whether Smith Micro may reconsider making the DS4/Genesis system available within Poser, or whether there will be some sort of plug-in for Poser that would achieve the same thing?  Having messed around with Genesis enough now to appreciate its capabilities, I would dearly love to be able to use it in Poser instead of in DS4-- which, to be honest, I don't like any more than I liked previous versions of DS.

Quote - Randall, do you have any "solid" information as to whether Smith Micro may reconsider making the DS4/Genesis system available within Poser, or whether there will be some sort of plug-in for Poser that would achieve the same thing? 

shouldn't you direct that question at SM and not a third party?

Quote - If I could say one thing and have it be the only thing you would hear it would be... Give us some time to work on this. Its not easy and we are making it happen as fast as it can happen. Its our goal to have Genesis completely native in Poser so that we can all go back to being a happy community of artists again.

You know that statement in itself show the direction I see this going. Now just let me give a simple statment in return. I do believe and see this going in the right direction. And. I do believe I am seeing results. I see Daz as a company that wants to expand there market like any other company. I am sure it will refuse on being stretched so thin it denies its roots, the original market that it grew from, but, that being said I also see it streching into what looks like a mainstream in 3D figure marketing ;). If you looked from the outside in really well enough you could see that it wants to grow closer to the gaming and animation industry. FBX, COLLADA, and other exports can make that posible. But what people fail to under stand is that there "is no Standard" in these between aplication. But its slowly becoming one. The last standard used by a very high precentage of the 3d world in animation is still OBJ. but Daz being very inovative is putting a spark in there I hope will stay in..........Just Thing About It. Its not an easy road but 10 years ago I couldnt do alot I can now. And I don't have the pocket for AutoSomething ;), never have!

Hi, I was very excited about DS4 and dynamic cloth for mac users, until V5 didn't work at high res in poser. I was really hoping to use both for my 3D comic, but I can't use a character that won't work in both proggies well, so I dipped my toes in the water with V5 and I thought she was pretty good (V4 can'tmorph well into a teenager or child etc) so I really hope there will be a high rez V5, but until then I will keep using poser and no V5.  When V5 works in both proggies well then I will use both.

She looks good in poser but not enough polygons I don't think.

I would be happy to create a character in DS and export to poser everytime I want a new character provided the character was high poly.

Well DAZ should take all the emotion about their figures as a complement. It shows how good their figures are that people get so worked up.

Love esther

kerwin wrote

Quote - While we're on the subject of technology, what about shader tree/map compatibility with poser?   For me this has been near the #1 reason why DS4 has trouble with existing Poser content created by 3rd parties (including some DAZ brokered artists)

If I'm clear about what you are asking, it'll probably never happen, because as I undersand it, all render engines read shaders differently, even Renderman based ones like Firefly and 3Delight. The best you could hope for is something to convert or approximate them as Paolo does with Reality between D|S and LuxRender. Kevin

DAZ and its followers frequently excoriate (always wanted to use that word in a post) SM for not adopting DAZ technologies.   Has DAZ adopted capsule zones and dependent parameters in DS4?  PMDs?  Can you please show us your roadmap to make DS4 more compatible with existent poser technologies.

This is a good question and one I have asked before.

Dependent Parameters are honestly as plainly written as ERC code is and in some ways less convoluted.

PMD has been around since Poser 6.

Let's go way back... Why not allow Material Collections and MT5 support along with support for the Materials folder so in the name of cross-compatibility we can get the bloat out of the Pose folders?  I'm talking more about accepting the file "extension" than some kind of transfer of shader nodes between the programs (in which case DS does translate "some" nodes - or simple reads the pz2 "header" - in order to use MAT Pose Files generated from Poser at all).

Will there be an effort to allow DS4 and higher to utilize WM figures designed in Poser?  Exporting Genesis is great and all but what about the scenario where Poser developers might create Poser-based genesis clothing.  How would DS users be able to utilize that?  I don't think these are bridges that are too far away once the WM export from DS is fine tuned.

Quote - I only jumped in and stated this, because I was in a unique position to kind of help squash that rumor...

So, in the interest of elimionating any more egregious rumors, my additional questions for DAZ (NOT IgnatusSerpentis) are:

• What is your public position on brokered content?  Do you want more V4/M4 submissions?  Will you be accepting submissions for non DAZ figures?  (I concede that this one is based on the rumor that DAZ will not accept brokered items for Poser and 3rd party figures not brokered by DAZ.) Are you encouraging DAZ content developers including your own brokered artists to spend more time on Genesis?   I thought I knew the answer to these, but since my statements are referred to by one of your supporters as egregious (which means colloquially., outrageous or prone to error.)   Is it merely a rumor that you are seeking brokered artists to develop for Genesis rather than continue to invest in the V4/M4 line?    (I do have multiple posts in my files from your PA manager that seem to indicate a preference--let's use this as an opportunity for DAZ to clearly state their preferences in open discourse.)
   
• As you are undoubtly aware, developing content for Genesis has been a signifcant challenge with the new technologies.  Do you feel that the lack of compatibility technologies between DS4 and P9 (see my previous post for a citation of a few of the compatibility issues) are somewhat forcing PAs to choose direction?  Do you feel additional compatibility technologies should be given higher priority to reduce this effort and make it possible for PAs to easily deliver content for both DS4 and Poser platforms?   DAZ is, after all,  has been well known for many years as a tool maker for content for both platforms (FST now CCT for example).  
   
• Will CCT be improved to more easily and readily generate poser-ready content, as FST had been in the past?   (While I agree CCT has subsumed most, if not all, FST tools, several tools do not generate, at this point, poser-usable content.)

-K

Ok let me post a negative one in a positive. I want to be able to show what Genesis can do. ;)

Quote -  

 

 

...please refer to image above.

These are a collection of screenshots from my Studio "Runtime" folder content tree in S3A.  All of the blue highlighted selections are non-content folders (e.g. contain nothing that can be loaded into a scene) which are clearly the result of Daz installers as can be seen from the folder names.  When I install content from Zip files, I do so manually by first extracting to a temp. folder and then moving the individual component folders (Geometries, Characters, Poses, etc.) into their proper locations.  Templates, Readmes & the like go into separate folders outside of the Studio application.

Content "Data" folders, while important for the application, should not be visible anywhere in the Content tab.

This is just downright sloppy programming and I'm not even a programmer.

It looks to me like you have some errors in your content directory settings.  You are absolutely right that these folders shouldn't appear in the Content tab, and they don't in mine.  The Data subfolder, for example, will not appear in the Content tab unless you have a different folder listed as the content folder than the folder containing the Data subfolder.

Quote - OTOH, the whole Genesis thing? Sorry, but if it doesn't work in Poser, it doesn't work in Poser. Until that situation changes? Either use it in D|S or do without it. If you got booted from their forums, then stop spending money there, and for the love of all that is holy, stop stomping your feet and whining about it. Nobody cares, my dear little precious. Take your ball, go home, and don't come back until you learn to behave like an adult.

Why don't you all follow Penguinisto wise advice? Stop spending money there, take the ball and go home. The only change I would to that advice is: to never come back.

In life, when something is over, is over, full stop; there is no point in continuing beating a fossilized horse skeleton.

Quote - Ok let me post a negative one in a positive. I want to be able to show what Genesis can do. ;)

Yanno, I really have NO idea what you're talking about. But let me ask you: if you wanna show what Genesis can do, show. There's no one stopping you.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Randall, do you have any "solid" information as to whether Smith Micro may reconsider making the DS4/Genesis system available within Poser, or whether there will be some sort of plug-in for Poser that would achieve the same thing? 

shouldn't you direct that question at SM and not a third party?

If I were at Smith Micro's forum, responding to a thread started by a Smith Micro person, yes.  However, this thread was started by Randall and he's the one who said it's being "worked on," so I'm addressing the question to him.

Quote - kerwin wrote

Quote - While we're on the subject of technology, what about shader tree/map compatibility with poser?   For me this has been near the #1 reason why DS4 has trouble with existing Poser content created by 3rd parties (including some DAZ brokered artists)

If I'm clear about what you are asking, it'll probably never happen, because as I undersand it, all render engines read shaders differently, even Renderman based ones like Firefly and 3Delight. The best you could hope for is something to convert or approximate them as Paolo does with Reality between D|S and LuxRender. Kevin

An approximation as you suggest would eliminate a huge amount of work at certifying content for DAZ.   Right now when you load a stock piece of Poser content (CR2 format) into DS4, you get a very poor interpretation (mostly the maps and some basice settings.)   Frequently items come in with additonal very wrong settings (yes, I've filed bug reports) such as setting "glossy" to 100%.    I'm not such an idealist that I'd expect 100% compatibility, but I think it is safe to say a bit more could be done to improve that compativility and increase the amount of content that works out of the box with DS4.   For end users with large libraries of non-DAZ content (for set pieces and props, for example) this would reduce the effort of employing that content in DS4, thus easing the transition (of those users who want to transition) to DS4.   I think we can all agree it would be beneficial to both DAZ and its PAs if there are more users on DS4 since that is the ideal platform for Genesis (today.)

For content creators, better shader mapping means that it's easier for us to offer support for both platforms, rather than deciding to create a custom set of shaders only for DAZ (using their proprietary shader tools and nodes) or choosing only Poser's proprietary shaders and nodes.   My question is intended to elicit (from DAZ) what their official positionis on this, since there has been precious little movement on shader translation between Poser and DS  in the past ferw years.

Good shader building in either product is time consuming.   Tools that even reduced that work by 50% could increase product compatibility.   I've considered my own shader translater between P9 and DS3A/DS4 but the minimal documentation, and the dependence on plugins for some key services (ubershader, for example) creates risk barrier for a commercial product to do the translation.

Cheers!

-K

Quote - Is there no way to have people downloading zips to agree to the TOS prior to downloading? Sort of a restricted access to the download unless you agree to it? Just a "Check this box" click ok and you download the zip file?

The basic flaw in EULAs for digital content and software is that you don't see the EULA until after you've bought the product. In the case of software in a box, you don't see the EULA until after you've opened the box, at which time the vendor won't take it back (due to the slimy practice of copying the material off the disk and then asking for a refund). 

So you buy some digital content from DAZ or Rendo or anyone. Upon installing you read the EULA and find it too draconian for your taste. Too bad, you already bought it. Your options are to install and agree to the EULA or not to install. Most people don't even read EULA any more because they feel it doesn't matter what it says or how they feel about it. If they want to use the product they paid for, they have to click AGREE. So they click without reading.

Quote - Will you be accepting submissions for non DAZ figures?  (I concede that this one is based on the rumor that DAZ will not accept brokered items for Poser and 3rd party figures not brokered by DAZ.)

To the best of my knowledge-- and I've been brokering at DAZ since 2003-- DAZ has always refused to accept content for any figure not sold at DAZ, for at least two reasons:

1.  If the figure isn't sold at DAZ, then DAZ has to purchase copies of it for all its Q.A. testers.

2.  If the figure isn't sold at DAZ, then DAZ has no control over the figure's quality or continued availability.  For instance, let's say that Vendor A makes a figure that is sold only at RDNA. And let's say that Vendor B makes an add-on for that figure, and DAZ accepts it.  What happens if it turns out that Vendor A's figure has copyright problems and RDNA takes it off the market?  DAZ is then stuck with an add-on for a figure that is no longer on the market.

3.  If the figure isn't sold at DAZ, then there may be customer-support issues.  DAZ is the only store that provides customer support for products, rather than laying that job off onto the individual vendors.  So, let's say that there's a problem with Vendor B's add-on for a figure that isn't sold at DAZ.  If the problem is caused by the figure itself, there isn't anything DAZ can do to resolve the problem, because the figure isn't sold at DAZ-- but even so, the upset customer is likely to blame, and become angry at, DAZ rather than at the creator of the figure.

The only exception to this rule that I know of is in a case where an item is for a figure sold at DAZ and for a figure not sold at DAZ-- such as, say, a hairpiece for V4 that also has fits for some figure not sold at DAZ.

Quote - ...so basically we are "written off" because those of us on limited budgets don't have the disposable income to buy a big ticket item like a new computer every couple of years.

Ok, let me get this right. You actually are upset that Daz will not cater to your OLD computer and to make this concession because you can't afford to buy a new computer??. You must be joking ;). I hope you don't mind if I say so, but that is beyond ridiculous. They're a business. They can't do that. And I completely understand that and I can't afford the newest version of either DS OR Poser. However, I don't feel so entitled that I expect them to make concessions just for people like poor little me. shakes head They owe me nothing. No one does. And for that small freedom I owe them nothing ;).

So in answer to this question: "so basically we are "written off" because those of us on limited budgets don't have the disposable income to buy a big ticket item like a new computer every couple of years"..... YES!!

Laurie