Quote - Render Modules for Kerkythea, Indigo, etc

better OBJ Import and DAE Import as standard across versions (guys DAE is NOT a pro feature....)

Poser2Kerythea would be awesome! I use it all the time to render my own models, to have it work without having to go through PoseRay would be great. 

And I agree DAE is NOT a pro feature... making it so defeats the intent of the format.

Oh yeah...  It would be really cool if it would work smoother for people who CREATE MODELS FOR POSER... I wouldn't know where to begin on this subject... but there just seems to be too much (unintentionally) voodoo, hidden features/methods, unclear/nonintuitive methods, and just generally obnoxious little quirks that it often makes converting a model that works fine elsewhere a real pain in the rump...   My most often snarled line when tweaking stuff in Poser... "AHHH, come on... WHY?"   

I only have P5 installed on an old system and P7 still in the box, so I do not know if what I want already exists, but I would like an official stand alone tutorial.  By stand alone, I mean, not included within Poser itself, since that would junk up the runtime.

Example:  Open Poser in screen 1 and do whatever, then select Hair Room.  Open tutorial in screen 2 and read the section about the Hair Room.  Follow the example given and create something good.

Then, of course, experiment based on what worked and SHAZAM!  Make Art.

Quote - I only have P5 installed on an old system and P7 still in the box, so I do not know if what I want already exists, but I would like an official stand alone tutorial.  By stand alone, I mean, not included within Poser itself, since that would junk up the runtime.

There are tutorials on the Smith Micro website:

http://poser.smithmicro.com/tutorials.html

http://my.smithmicro.com/tutorials/index.html

And webinars:

http://my.smithmicro.com/webinars/poser/index.html

Quote - Then, of course, experiment based on what worked and SHAZAM!  Make Art.

There is also a Make Art button in Poser via Wardrobe Wizard. I can't remember when it appeared but it was definitely there in Poser 8 and maybe earlier. :m_laugh:

Double posted. Have problems with the internet today! :huh:

Quote - What Wolf359 said in their first post and...

The entire market now rests on Gen 4 DAZ people who are years old.

How are you going to get brand new customers to buy Poser? Another complicated new advancement they can't figure out on their own - an advancement that is rarely used?

You can no longer depend on DAZ to supply the content base of a person. Poser has to make a 2014 Posette/Dork or die

Ok, the DAZ Gen 4 base items are a couple years old.  So what? 

Really, so what.  Did all of the content disappear?  Did they suddenly stop working?  Hate to break it to you, but the Gen 4 figures aren't all of that and a bag of chips.  There is an entire industry that exists solely to fix problems in the Gen 4 meshes and I own most of them.

A new Poser user will start out with the folks in Poser - Ryan, Alyson, Simon & Sydney etc just like I did.  From there - they can go a number of places to get more figures.  Some will be at DAZ, some will be here, some will be at Content Paradise and some will be at RNDA.

The great thing is unlike when I started with Poser 5, there are products like Xdresser, WW (included with Poser) and Morphing Clothes - V4's wardrobe has been every girls' wardrobe for some time now.  (Well, except for Mariko - PhilC needs to get cracking on that already - she is cute, but I don't do NMIATWAS renders.)

There are a number of new figures out already that take advantage of the advances in Poser 9/2012 -and more are coming from both SM & independent artists.  Not to mention the fact that it isn't all hard to weight map any legacy characters - I am wieghtmapping Rikishi this weekend.

My viewpoint is completely differnent than yours:

We are no longer tied to DAZ/Poser 4 capable characters anymore.

The future looks bright from behind my keyboard.

Quote - > Quote - I only have P5 installed on an old system and P7 still in the box, so I do not know if what I want already exists, but I would like an official stand alone tutorial.  By stand alone, I mean, not included within Poser itself, since that would junk up the runtime.

 

There are tutorials on the Smith Micro website:

http://poser.smithmicro.com/tutorials.html

http://my.smithmicro.com/tutorials/index.html

And webinars:

http://my.smithmicro.com/webinars/poser/index.html

 

Quote - Then, of course, experiment based on what worked and SHAZAM!  Make Art.

 

There is also a Make Art button in Poser via Wardrobe Wizard. I can't remember when it appeared but it was definitely there in Poser 8 and maybe earlier. :m_laugh:

Thank you for the links. :)

You are very welcome. I hope they help.

If SM can still distribute the older figures, maybe it would be a good idea for them to revamp all of them with weight-mapping, new high res textures, and whatever else would be worth taking the time to do.  I still pull up older figures, as every figure usually has something (at least in theory) going for it, even those that end up being ultimately useless for anything...  People in the community have made, and are still making, all kinds of improvements to the various figures.  Maybe SM should look into putting similar effort into the standard content?  It couldn't be that big of an undertaking, and might re-up the value in a lot of older items as well.

Quote - > Quote - What Wolf359 said in their first post and...

The entire market now rests on Gen 4 DAZ people who are years old.

How are you going to get brand new customers to buy Poser? Another complicated new advancement they can't figure out on their own - an advancement that is rarely used?

You can no longer depend on DAZ to supply the content base of a person. Poser has to make a 2014 Posette/Dork or die

Yep. The logic is simple: If it forms the backbone of your business model, and you don't control/own it, you're screwed.

Quote - Ok, the DAZ Gen 4 base items are a couple years old.  So what?  

...and if DAZ woke up one morning and decided, hey, let's stop allowing downloads of gen4 figures to all but past purchasers w/ it specifically in their order history?

I guarantee you that any further growth in Poser would stop almost dead cold, right then and there (Pirate Bay pending, natch). Smith Micro knows it, and even though you won't admit it, upon thinking it through, you know it too.

Quote - A new Poser user will start out with the folks in Poser - Ryan, Alyson, Simon & Sydney etc just like I did. 

...until they see all the pretty renders using that "Victoria" figure they keep hearing about. Then the default figures (which are grossly unsupported anyway) get dropped like a radioactive turd. You know it. I know it. You may as well just admit it.

'course, there is this option:

Quote - The great thing is unlike when I started with Poser 5, there are products like Xdresser, WW (included with Poser) and Morphing Clothes - V4's wardrobe has been every girls' wardrobe for some time now. 

...which curiously does bupkis for fixing the bad joints, limited (if any) morphability, and the often glaring mesh problems found in most figures out there.

Hate to say it, but until SM gets off their butts and comes up with a decent mesh set of their own, they're at DAZ' mercy.

Quote - If SM can still distribute the older figures, maybe it would be a good idea for them to revamp all of them with weight-mapping, new high res textures, and whatever else would be worth taking the time to do.

I agree - they could even re-work the mesh a bit, keeping the joint parameters the same (and working it to use the same old UV maps).

Quote - ...and if DAZ woke up one morning and decided, hey, let's stop allowing downloads of gen4 figures to all but past purchasers w/ it specifically in their order history?

I guarantee you that any further growth in Poser would stop almost dead cold, right then and there (Pirate Bay pending, natch). Smith Micro knows it, and even though you won't admit it, upon thinking it through, you know it too.

This is true.

But is it likely to happen? Is it even likely to happen any time soon?

As long as Gen 4 make up half of Daz's catalog, it seems very unlikely to me indeed.

We might worry, if we think it's likely that Daz will suddenly decide it prefers predatory business practices over concern for its own reputation.  The backlash from thousands and thousands of vendors, whose back catalogs absolutely depend on the availability of these items, would be immense, nevermind the response from customers.  I find it hard to imagine Daz actually doing this until Gen 4 items everywhere else begin to disappear from the marketplace naturally -- and that's going to take quite a bit of time.

Well for the new poser user DAZ has almost done the same thing as withdrawing the gen4 by starting charging for them.   Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe I was a particularly cheapass new user, but when I started out in 3d I wouldnt pay for much of anything. I'd grab anything free I could find, but I wouldnt pay.  It wasn't until I got my feet wet and started getting decent results that I started spending like a drunken sailor.  

My concern with the SM figures that ship with poser... decent results are going to be tough to come by, especially for a new user.

Heck one thing they should be doing is taking that content tab that I have never ever used and adding a section that links to download sites for any decent free figure(content) around.  There are figures around that compare quite well to the gen 4 series.   Antonia is an example.  Maybe v4 has a few things up on her, she has a few things up on v4, but really as a free figure to start working with a new user can get a lot of miles out of her and some nice renders without a ton of effort or skill.  Unfortunately a new user probably wont find her.   Previously that wasn't a problem for the new poser user, they just did what we all did and grabbed the free gen4 base figures... but now that there isnt a free base figure....

Do we worry about daz deciding they prefer predatory business practices over their reputation?  I do.  I bet a lot of people do.  That to my mind is what a lot of the fireworks surrounding genesis were about, people seeing a predatory business move and not liking it.  

On the upside it isnt a terribly difficult fix on the surface of it.  All SM really has to do is put a very good figure into everyone's runtime.  The v4 content madness that swept the poserverse is, as much as anything, about the fact that everyone had her in their runtime, therefore the market was huge for v4 products.  If SM puts a very good set of figures into everyone's runtime, vendor support will show up and you have the start of a transition away from the daz gen4 figures for poser users.  It wont be a landslide right off, neither was genesis, but it will give a route forward around a 'standard' figure family, and allow a focus for vendor support that has not yet been seen bi any of the very good alternatives already on offer

Quote - > Quote - ...and if DAZ woke up one morning and decided, hey, let's stop allowing downloads of gen4 figures to all but past purchasers w/ it specifically in their order history?

I guarantee you that any further growth in Poser would stop almost dead cold, right then and there (Pirate Bay pending, natch). Smith Micro knows it, and even though you won't admit it, upon thinking it through, you know it too.

This is true.

But is it likely to happen? Is it even likely to happen any time soon?

As long as Gen 4 make up half of Daz's catalog, it seems very unlikely to me indeed.

We might worry, if we think it's likely that Daz will suddenly decide it prefers predatory business practices over concern for its own reputation.  The backlash from thousands and thousands of vendors, whose back catalogs absolutely depend on the availability of these items, would be immense, nevermind the response from customers.  I find it hard to imagine Daz actually doing this until Gen 4 items everywhere else begin to disappear from the marketplace naturally -- and that's going to take quite a bit of time.

Quote - Well for the new poser user DAZ has almost done the same thing as withdrawing the gen4 by starting charging for them.   Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe I was a particularly cheapass new user, but when I started out in 3d I wouldnt pay for much of anything. I'd grab anything free I could find, but I wouldnt pay.  It wasn't until I got my feet wet and started getting decent results that I started spending like a drunken sailor.

I am pretty certain that I paid for the V3 and M3 bases. At least, they appear at the same time in my order history (very first order) along with the morphs and textures, which were definitely not free.  Spending money right away on content didn't stop me from entering the market.  Those who started earlier and paid for V2/M2 or V1/M1 weren't daunted by the idea of paying for content either.

Sure, it raises the bar.  But those who are willing to pay for the bases right away are probably also more willing to pay for other content right away, too.  So the losses may not be quite as much as you'd think.

Quote -  

Yep. The logic is simple: If it forms the backbone of your business model, and you don't control/own it, you're screwed.

I guarantee you that any further growth in Poser would stop almost dead cold, right then and there (Pirate Bay pending, natch). Smith Micro knows it, and even though you won't admit it, upon thinking it through, you know it too.

Hate to say it, but until SM gets off their butts and comes up with a decent mesh set of their own, they're at DAZ' mercy.

I don't think you are properly accounting for the actual number of paying Poser users and everything we're doing with it.  There's a large community built around this program; people who bought it fairly and expect to pay a fair price again for the next version.  It doesn't mean we're all buying content here, or from Daz, or any other place...  Many people simply depend on Poser to help them do a job...  (Remember Poser sightings?  Not so easy to spot them these days...) 

Sometimes you just need an easy way to animate a person.  Starting fom scratch with that goal alone, Poser is easily one of the best choices you could make.  Still.

Daz selling content while having no control of the program is not the same situation as Smith-Micro selling Poser while having no control over Daz content.  Sponsoring 3rd party content without a viable platform could be commercial suicide, so Daz were smart to develop D|S.  Poser may benefit greatly from 3rd party items, but having key features maintained and updated by Smith-Micro seems far more important.

Was V4 free on release? I thought it was a while before they went to the free thing, but I may be mis-remembering. I'd say if anything though, many new users in any hobby are more inclined to drop money. They even buy stuff they later find out they didn't really need. Forget new users though. How many 'experienced' users here have you heard talk about the stuff they've bought and never used 'yet.' I don't think the lack of free base figures will be much of a deterrent at all - it probably wasn't before they were free either.

I am not sure on the release date but according to my records I paid $19.48 as a sale price, full price was $29.95, for V4 complete which included the basic morphs, 10 poses and basic texture.  I also paid $14.68, full price $29.95, for the V4 Hi Res maps.  That was on 8th December  2006.  This was my first render using V4.

Good grief, was it really that long ago and have I aged that much?

Quote -
This is true.

But is it likely to happen? Is it even likely to happen any time soon?

As long as Gen 4 make up half of Daz's catalog, it seems very unlikely to me indeed.

This part is (partially) true. As mentioned by meatSim, Vicky4 now costs you to get - that price could go up slowly over time, then they could wait until the percentages slide just enough...

OTOH, that's not really the point. The point is, SmithMicro needs to make sure something like that never happens. If you want to forge your own destiny, you have to do it without relying on the mercy of another company who makes a competing product. 

As a parallel/proof, Apple got the hint when they finally made/bought Safari and built the iWork Suite for OSX - for years, they relied on Internet Explorer and MS Office to keep MacOS alive and attractive, and they stagnated as a result. It was only when Apple grew a pair and forged ahead with their own self-contained system that they were able to grow explosively, and not need Microsoft's good graces to survive.

Quote - I don't think you are properly accounting for the actual number of paying Poser users and everything we're doing with it.

It doesn't really matter how many people bought a copy of the latest Poser, or who/how-many tinker with the envelope's edge (IMHO, less than 0.0001% of the total, at most generous). What does matter is what happens when there is no longer any viable content for it that's worth a damn.

Quote -  Poser may benefit greatly from 3rd party items, but having key features maintained and updated by Smith-Micro seems far more important.

Having cool features won't do much good if no one is using it due to lack of content (or lack of better content, I should say). There's a diff between the pro and pro-am who just want the tools, and the hobbyist who wants the pretty princess and a Make Art button, yanno?

One final bit: Vicky/Mike4 are 6 years old now. DAZ has moved on and is pimping Genesis. It wouldn't take much to discourage new gen4 content in the store (favoring Genesis), and to slowly rotate out the existing stock...

Most people who have bought Poser have not used any 3rd party content at all. They are just happy using the provided content. The percentage of poser users posting at forums is only a couple of thousand (at best).

For those of us who do frequent the forums and do buy stuff, we have moved to where the content is, so less DAZ content. There are occasionally still some nice things at DAZ which we can use, but most of it has moved elsewhere. That is fine with me.

And if DAZ wants to push V4 out of existence, there will be alternative solutions, like always. But I don't see this happening in the near future for various reasons.

I think the big lesson we have learned is not to depend too much on a single content provider, and jumping on the genesis wagon is doing it all over again, even worse, you get tied to the software as well.

DAZ can do everything it wants with their own content and software, like they have always done. That does not mean we have to be happy about it or wishing them success

What I'm pissed about:

I love the Sims. The Sims people do fun stuff without me having to click like mad and understand IK chains and animation timelines and lighting and all that stuff. It also has a super easy way to design a character. Laying out furniture and other stuff is SOOO easy in the Sims. Not like Poser where I have to switch cameras and enter positions and rotations in parameter editors. Whaaaat?

I bet the Sims people would be happy if SM would incorporate their technology, and then we could have all that easy repurposing of content and easy positioning, as well as subsurface scattering, real reflections, IDL, etc that the Sims is missing. But, nooooo, SM holds their noses in the air and won't make it easy for me to use Sims content in Poser. That sucks. All that easy-to-use technology - totally ignored. It's sickening.

Quote - But, nooooo, SM holds their noses in the air and won't make it easy for me to use Sims content in Poser. That sucks. All that easy-to-use technology - totally ignored. It's sickening.

As usual, your accuracy and eloquence is amazing! ROFLMAO! I'm with you 100% 

Quote - OTOH, that's not really the point. The point is, SmithMicro needs to make sure something like that never happens. If you want to forge your own destiny, you have to do it without relying on the mercy of another company who makes a competing product.

Put that way, without any hyperbole, yes. 

Quote - Most people who have bought Poser have not used any 3rd party content at all.

Proof, please. Considering the massive sales of 3rd-party content, the complete and utter comparative lack of accessories and clothing for the default content, and discounting those who play with the app once or twice?

I'd prefer to see some sort of evidence that you assertion is even halfway true.

What percentage of who hangs out in what forums means nothing by way of evidence. What matters are sales, and what the market is doing - and more importantly, what the market is providing. The market at large is crammed full of products for you-know-who's figures, and by comparison, there ain't jack for the default figures (at least not outside content paradise.)

Tech world parallel time again:

The iPhone has far and away the largest and most bewildering array of accessories and apps on the planet. Android comes in a close second. The Windows Mobile phones are down in the basement somewhere. Blackberry? Blackberry who again? If we look at marketshare, it bears out: Apple and Android lead the market. Windows Phone is struggling hard, and making little-to-no headway. Blackberry is so low in marketshare by now that you'd need a septic specialist to find it. QED: Whatever Apple and Google (Android) do, the market follows. 

In translation, Apple = Vicky/Mike. There is no analogue to Google here. Antonia and a few other meshes like it are like Windows Phone - struggling against established competitors, and the future depends on them. SM default figures? They're down in Blackberry territory - yeah they're there, and some folks still use 'em, but there's little-to-no 3rd-partysupport going on and thus no growth.

Quote - I think the big lesson we have learned is not to depend too much on a single content provider...

Right now, Smith Micro has onegreat big 6-year-old pillar propping it up, and it does not own or control, or even influence that pillar. 

Quote - DAZ can do everything it wants with their own content and software, like they have always done. That does not mean we have to be happy about it or wishing them success

Nobody is asking you to.

Wait - let me repeat that:

NOBODY IS ASKING YOU TO!

Seriously, get off your hate-wagon for a minute and think about this one line:

It does NOT matter WHO supplies the most popular mesh! If that supplier is NOT Smith Micro, then Poser is at the mercy of whomever it is! 

If I could find a way to make that line glow, blink, and somehow burn into your codependent grudge-addled ideology, I would do it.

Smith Micro has exactly two viable options at this point: 

1. encourage a diverse base of highly popular figures (anyone with two working neurons can cruise the marketplaces and know that this isn't happening, your assertions to the contrary. If you have any credible evidence at all saying otherwise, then let's see it.)

2. build a set of base meshes sufficiently useable that the markets all gear towards them instead of any third-party base meshes.

The first option puts them at the mercy of the community, which is about as reliable as a spider web in a hurricane. The second puts the future in their own hands, where it belongs.

Quote - Most people who have bought Poser have not used any 3rd party content at all.

hmm.. I have never really considered that.  Is it true?  hard to say.

I guess, like most people, I assume people look at things the way I do.  When I started I did so to make character portraits for RP characters.  To me the included content was never good enough, or diverse enough, to make images that held a candle to the images that other people were able to create for the same purpose, using third party content for the most part. 

If that statement were true, and it would be pretty hard to verify without having sales data on poser and a wide range of content sites, that would explain why SM has been so lacadasical with regards to actually competeing on the content side of things.

Considering the mass of claims and counter claims that have been trundlled away as supposed fact in these forums, many of which are little more than a very personal views I am amazed at the number of experts who can tell the future.  I have lost count of the number of claims that Daz or SM will go bust unless they do X, Y or Z......no come to think of it I haven't lost count as I was never counting.  

Very few companies are going to publish the true level of purchases or success or failure   of a particular product.  Without these and many other facts that will not be public knowledge all of these pictures of doom and gloom can only be personal views or educated guesses.  Why so many people give credence to such works of fantasy is beyond me but I suspect, and no I cannot prove it, that a large portion of Daz and Poser users are unaware of such claims as they do not read these forums and possibly, just don't care.

I have no idea why penguisto has to turn this into a personal attack. I was nowhere bashing anyone, just commenting on some of the remarks others made.

Poser sales and DS downloads are a lot more than the few thousand buyers here and at DAZ, so my assumption is based on some reality

Quote - Considering the mass of claims and counter claims that have been trundlled away as supposed fact in these forums, many of which are little more than a very personal views I am amazed at the number of experts who can tell the future.  I have lost count of the number of claims that Daz or SM will go bust unless they do X, Y or Z......no come to think of it I haven't lost count as I was never counting.  

That's why I'm asking for evidence.

A quick check of the marketplaces at the more heavily-trafficked sites (Here, DAZ, CP, RDNA) will replicate what I'm saying - that the vast majority of the stuff made content-wise is for Vicky4, followed at a distance by Mike 4 and Aiko3... who are in turn followed very distantly by Miki, the toon character-du-jour, and a whole pack of oddball bits and bobs.

As for whether or not Smith Micro would die if they didn't come up with some decent default figures? Nah. They won't crash overnight. OTOH, if suddenly V4 was somehow unavailable to new customers (w/o pirating it), I can guarantee you that any new growth would start to wither awful fast.

{

The following is conjecture, based on memory. It may be faulty, but...

Back in the days of Poser 4, the original Vicky was still struggling for attention against freakin' Posette. Not until Vicky 3 came out did you have any sort of parity for content.

}

The reason I point all that out is not due to any pissing contenst, honestly. I point it out because I want to highlight that Smith Micro is highly dependent on outside content just to stay alive (let alone grow), and by a vast majority the biggest game in town is the V4/M4 series.

To that end, I want SM to step back from feature-bloat for a bit, and to focus on  making a kick-ass mesh, because I want good choices. Right now, there is very little of that. Yes, there is Antonia, whose face is damned tough to mold and shape, in spite of being a bendy little wench. There's Bella, which is cute and has a petite figure that I really kinda like, but that face? Umm, I'm really sorry, but yuck - and you can't do much to change that, judging from the renders. Allison? Allison who? 

I mean, c'mon - I got 'Vicky-killers' in my runtime stretching back to Terai Yuki, AnimeDoll, Neftoon Gal, Alexa, Dina V (snort), Natalia, and beyond! There were lots that I never got to test that were alleged to be the next big thing if only they hadn't been aborted (Anyone else remember "Renda"? Yeah, I thought so.)

[Okay. Begin Rant. Cover your kids' eyes, plz]

Damnit - the third-party ride isn't going to work anymore! I'm sick and fucking tired of seeing some promising figure, only to watch as an initial flurry of support for it becomes a flaccid pile of unusable cheese (see also Antonia's current trajectory. Think I'm kidding? Prove me wrong.)

Yeah, we got WW and Cross-Dresser, but those only produce mixed-bag solutions at best, and require a ton of time and work to get up any sort of wardrobe. Neither one of them fixes bad joints, badly-topo'd mesh, bad UV maps... 

The result? I end up with yet another damned-near-dead bit o' fluff in a runtime directory somewhere, parking its fat and lazy ass all over untold disk sectors, eating electron rinds, watching TV, drinking beer, and in general doing a whole lot of nothing as even it's fucking creator quietly gives up on it. Right next to all the other ones. 

So, why not skip all that bullshit? We really don't need Yet Another Ignorable Feature. Seriously, we don't. Blowing untold hours and CPU cycles to compile ungodly complex features (and Yet Another Tab with a jillion sliders) that only 0.00001% of the user base will ever bother with tweaking on? Seriously? 

Look. Let me save you some time here. A kick-ass figure that can do everything v4 does -- but way better -- will insure that folks will support it at least a little, and who knows - it might even take off if you back it up with some kick-ass initial content this time. Mega bonus points if it can automatically load and conform existing Vicky 4 clothing to it. Push enough default content for it to make the thing worth getting. Don't shy away from giving 'em working genitalia, and don't be afraid to allow the user to morph the unholy shit out of it.

[/End Rant]

Anyrate... from Poser? How about, if you must code, introduce some simplicity to the UI? Hide the unholy technical garbage from the user unless he or she opens it specifically in another window? 

Please folks. Let's keep this professional... not personal.

Quote - Please folks. Let's keep this professional... not personal.

Timely reminder - thanks.

Quote - What I'm pissed about:

I love the Sims. The Sims people do fun stuff without me having to click like mad and understand IK chains and animation timelines and lighting and all that stuff. It also has a super easy way to design a character. Laying out furniture and other stuff is SOOO easy in the Sims. Not like Poser where I have to switch cameras and enter positions and rotations in parameter editors. Whaaaat?

I bet the Sims people would be happy if SM would incorporate their technology, and then we could have all that easy repurposing of content and easy positioning, as well as subsurface scattering, real reflections, IDL, etc that the Sims is missing. But, nooooo, SM holds their noses in the air and won't make it easy for me to use Sims content in Poser. That sucks. All that easy-to-use technology - totally ignored. It's sickening.

Ohh Runtime AI, now that would be cool! Wonder what the chances, vicky would end up in the temple are.

Quote - To that end, I want SM to step back from feature-bloat for a bit, and to focus on  making a kick-ass mesh, because I want good choices.

Feature bloat?  Are you kidding?  Name one new feature from the latest release of Poser that would qualify as feature bloat.  The best figures at any given time have always been limited by Poser, not the other way around.  Weight mapping and the changes to rigging were needed in order that improved figures could be made.  Without new features, new figures would have the same problems the old figures do.  Next we need some kind of solution for body mass, whether done with soft-bodies or spring-bones, it needs to happen soon.  And for animation, IK really does need pivot and IK-FK blending, it is no easier to use and just as problematic as in P4.  What good is another mesh if it still has the same anti-gravity breasts and calves that bend into the thighs as every figure before it? 

Quote - Right now, there is very little of that. Yes, there is Antonia, whose face is damned tough to mold and shape, in spite of being a bendy little wench. There's Bella, which is cute and has a petite figure that I really kinda like, but that face? Umm, I'm really sorry, but yuck - and you can't do much to change that, judging from the renders. Allison? Allison who? 

Have there been any figures that you do like?

Quote - So, why not skip all that bullshit? We really don't need Yet Another Ignorable Feature. Seriously, we don't. Blowing untold hours and CPU cycles to compile ungodly complex features (and Yet Another Tab with a jillion sliders) that only 0.00001% of the user base will ever bother with tweaking on? Seriously? 

I can't for the life of me figure out what you are referring to...  Cloth room?  SSS? 

I'm going to go ahead and say that whatever it is a large number of people are likely using it.  I never saw the point of the faceroom, but that's been there forever.

Quote -
Feature bloat?  Are you kidding?  Name one new feature from the latest release of Poser that would qualify as feature bloat.

I got a better idea: Name a new feature in the past five years that a newbie can actually use without having to download a preset first, like most do. Name the features  in the past 10 years that the majority of Poserdom actually uses on a regular basis and can construct on their own, again w/o resorting to presets.

Now - compare that list to all the stuff that has been chucked in there ever since Poser 6 came out...

QED: Feature Bloat.

Quote - The best figures at any given time have always been limited by Poser, not the other way around.

The subjective "best" troll-trap set aside, that statement might have been true in 2001.

It ain't true anymore, and I'll leave it at that.

Quote - Have there been any figures that you do like?

A better question: Have there been any that have seen enough support to still be viable come this time next year?

You see, it's not about like/don't-like. It's about having a figure come out, and having some actual long-lasting and widespread support for it. Very few last beyond six months. Fewer still last beyond a year, and even then it usually requires some hardcore dedication (usually from some really fine folks in Japan). 

I'll name a feature that a new person can use off the hop. IDL. GC. Inverse square lighting. Weight Mapping (Dregon). The first three make rendering a hell of a lot easier for a newbie. They think how a scence should be lit not how to light a scene in poser.

Quote - I got a better idea: Name a new feature in the past five years that a newbie can actually use without having to download a preset first, like most do. Name the features  in the past 10 years that the majority of Poserdom actually uses on a regular basis and can construct on their own, again w/o resorting to presets.

The subjective "newbie" troll-trap set aside, how about multiple undo/redo, multithreaded rendering, high dynamic range imaging, brush morphing, animation layers, cross body morph tool, global illumination, improved HW OpenGL, tone mapping/exposure tool, normal mapping, gamma correction, dependent parameters tool, improved joint rigging system, and 64-bit rendering.

If you'd trade even half of those for one "kick-ass" new figure, then it's obvious we have different prioroties and probably aren't going to agree on what Smith-Micro should be doing with Poser in the future.

"Wonder what the chances, vicky would end up in the temple are. " Whether she'd end up naked would be far more revealing - NPI.

The point about speculation is valid. Much like some physics experiment, we can’t see we can only infer from the observed effects. The partisan rhetoric here clearly doesn’t represent anything more than a skewed subset of reality – the squeaky wheels, folks without a life or whatever so we’ll discount them. The galleries here and elsewhere may present a somewhat larger and perhaps more diverse sample, hard to say, but a quick perusal of same will give a pretty clear picture of the popularity of 3rd party content. The collective marketplaces arguably indicate what is popular among people spending money on additional content. What percentage that represents, I don’t know. Since Poser pre-DS was pretty much DAZ’ only market and probably remained it’s main market for years, I think their existence and continued new products over the years suggest that a fair number of Poser users were buying 3rd party content. The existence of a number of free figures over the years also suggests that people were open to alternatives. Taken together, those indicators don’t completely rule out the possibility that “Most people who have bought Poser have not used any 3rd party content at all." But,. as the old boy on CSI once said, “If you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.” We don’t know the numbers though, and people are going believe what they want to believe – and in the service of said beliefs, the standards of evidence will usually be lower than Tila Tequila’s admission requirements. I’m gonna go watch the Euro Zone implode.

Peng, dude, lay off the caffeine. You look like you stuck your dingus in a light socket while trying to hump one of the Queen’s Corgis ÷)

Dr. Hibbert: Homer, I'm afraid you'll have to undergo a coronary bypass operation.
Homer: Say it in English, Doc.
Dr. Hibbert: You're going to need open-heart surgery.
Homer: Spare me your medical mumbo-jumbo.
Dr. Hibbert: We're going to cut you open and tinker with your ticker.
Homer: Could you dumb it down a shade?
- The Simpsons

Quote - > Quote - I got a better idea: Name a new feature in the past five years that a newbie can actually use without having to download a preset first, like most do. Name the features  in the past 10 years that the majority of Poserdom actually uses on a regular basis and can construct on their own, again w/o resorting to presets.

The subjective "newbie" troll-trap set aside

Call it "typical user" then. Say, someone who doesn't post to forums.

Either way, the point still stands, and you know it. ;)

Quote - how about multiple undo/redo, multithreaded rendering, high dynamic range imaging, brush morphing, animation layers, cross body morph tool, global illumination, improved HW OpenGL, tone mapping/exposure tool, normal mapping, gamma correction, dependent parameters tool, improved joint rigging system, and 64-bit rendering.

...and there are perhaps three of those, tops, used by most users without resorting to a preset supplied by someone else. As I've already said.

I have to agree.  I had the option to trade poser 9s new features for  a better figure and It wasn't even a close desicion for me.  

Quote - > Quote - I got a better idea: Name a new feature in the past five years that a newbie can actually use without having to download a preset first, like most do. Name the features  in the past 10 years that the majority of Poserdom actually uses on a regular basis and can construct on their own, again w/o resorting to presets.

The subjective "newbie" troll-trap set aside, how about multiple undo/redo, multithreaded rendering, high dynamic range imaging, brush morphing, animation layers, cross body morph tool, global illumination, improved HW OpenGL, tone mapping/exposure tool, normal mapping, gamma correction, dependent parameters tool, improved joint rigging system, and 64-bit rendering.

If you'd trade even half of those for one "kick-ass" new figure, then it's obvious we have different prioroties and probably aren't going to agree on what Smith-Micro should be doing with Poser in the future.

 

Quote - ...and there are perhaps three of those, tops, used by most users without resorting to a preset supplied by someone else. As I've already said.

But haven't proven. 

For someone who demands proof from everyone else, you don't seem to be bringing much more than your opinion.

I don't get your whole Genesis obsession.  I don't remember anybody asking for "1 mesh to rule them all".  Could you point to a thread pre-DS4 where ANYONE was asking for this?  I don't remember it, but I have slept since the release of DS4.
Genesis is a solution in search of a problem. 

If it was a solution, the stores would be overrun with Genesis products - look around, there isn't that much outside of the DAZ store - And most of those have a Gen 4 character bundled with them.

Clothing is no longer an issue for characters.  Just because you don't want to use what is either built into Poser or an external product doesn't mean there is a problem - it just means that you are desperately looking for a ray of darkness in an otherwise sunny day.

As far as Gen4 (and Gen3 et al)....

For the most part, characters cost money. 

V3 ran $80 back in the day (40 for the base figure, 20 for the body morphs 20 for the head morphs - then add the body fixes on top of that.).  And M3 was just as expensive, then there was those kids....

$200 for Genesis or $200 for the Gen 4 figures - 6 of 1 or half a dozen of the other.

Play chicken little all you want.  I got 30 or so figures I need to weight-map.....

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I got a better idea: Name a new feature in the past five years that a newbie can actually use without having to download a preset first, like most do. Name the features  in the past 10 years that the majority of Poserdom actually uses on a regular basis and can construct on their own, again w/o resorting to presets.

The subjective "newbie" troll-trap set aside

Call it "typical user" then. Say, someone who doesn't post to forums.

 

Either way, the point still stands, and you know it. ;)

New users using a preset is a red-herring.  It doesn't matter.  Lots of new users use canned poses, and couldn't make a convincing one of their own in a year.  Should we get rid of preset poses or the ability to make them?

Without most of those features, we might as well use the other software.  It's those very features that, including the UI that you dislike, which make Poser users use Poser.  Not the figures.  But the render engine, the materials, the cloth room, the morph brush

Quote - how about multiple undo/redo, multithreaded rendering, high dynamic range imaging, brush morphing, animation layers, cross body morph tool, global illumination, improved HW OpenGL, tone mapping/exposure tool, normal mapping, gamma correction, dependent parameters tool, improved joint rigging system, and 64-bit rendering.

...and there are perhaps three of those, tops, used by most users without resorting to a preset supplied by someone else. As I've already said.

You've demanded proof of others' quantifiable statements.  Where's your proof that "most users" don't use these features?

I dont think your reasoning follows at all.... we are framing the discussion around features poser users use and you for some reason dont want to consider 'pre-sets' as actually using a feature... that makes no sense.  at all.   

It doesn't matter if they learn how to use the feature directly or get use by purchasing content where the vendor made use of it, be it figures with WM, character sets with sss, lighting sets for IDL, or any other feature

It doesn't make a lick of difference if the user does it themselves, all this 'feature bloat', as you call it, makes poser stand apart from DS.   Poser is about renders, and posers 'bloated features' allow it to beat the tar out of DS where it really counts

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I got a better idea: Name a new feature in the past five years that a newbie can actually use without having to download a preset first, like most do. Name the features  in the past 10 years that the majority of Poserdom actually uses on a regular basis and can construct on their own, again w/o resorting to presets.

The subjective "newbie" troll-trap set aside

Call it "typical user" then. Say, someone who doesn't post to forums.

 

Either way, the point still stands, and you know it. ;)

 

Quote - how about multiple undo/redo, multithreaded rendering, high dynamic range imaging, brush morphing, animation layers, cross body morph tool, global illumination, improved HW OpenGL, tone mapping/exposure tool, normal mapping, gamma correction, dependent parameters tool, improved joint rigging system, and 64-bit rendering.

...and there are perhaps three of those, tops, used by most users without resorting to a preset supplied by someone else. As I've already said.

Well heck, sounds like Poser may be the first program to ever reach a finished state. 

I thought this thread was what do you want "from" Poser, not what do you want "for" Poser.

I want these matshperes in the next version. They are so much easier to grab hold of and to manipulate!

I am not that much bothered about what content is provided for Poser or who provides it. I would like Smith Micro to make it easier to create our own content. Therefore I would love to see them improve the content creation tools and the cloth room. If they did this the sky would be the limit for all Poser users!

In either case, I'm not going down the rabbit hole of feature-countings, because it's obvious that some folks want it packed, and damn the consequences.

The main problem still hasn't disappeared, though: The majority of the Poser-using market is heavily reliant on a 6-year-old mesh that Smith Micro doesn't have any influence or control over.

Personally, I'm not talking about Genesis being the standard here. Quite the contrary: I want something that rivals it. Most importantly, Smith Micro needs to make one set of meshes, and then try and set some sort of standard with them. 

Otherwise, it will puts its own future at the mercy and charity of others.

--

Quote - Most evidence (forum posts, gallery images, survey results) is contaminated by self-selection bias.

This, right here.

A part of me dies a little bit everytime this happens.... but I have to agree with penguinisto on that point.

As much as I love to see new features, SM needs to set a standard and set a standard that takes full advantage of whatever feature set is included with poser 2014(?).  I'm all for adding features, but they can no longer just put features out into the wild and trust in the community to do all the work of getting the most out of them.

When M5 came out with previews somone posted the comment on the preview renders .."Doesn't anyone from Daz know how to use daz studio?"  

Sometimes thats is the way it seems with posers new features.  They are in there, but its up to the community to get good results from it.  For example, alyson2 vs Anastasia, the SSS wacro vs   BB shaders.  For poser to really thrive without daz supplying the content they need to release their product with content that makes propper use of the technology. If that means we wait an extra month or two for the product... well thats fine with me.

Quote - In either case, I'm not going down the rabbit hole of feature-countings, because it's obvious that some folks want it packed, and damn the consequences.

The main problem still hasn't disappeared, though: The majority of the Poser-using market is heavily reliant on a 6-year-old mesh that Smith Micro doesn't have any influence or control over.

Personally, I'm not talking about Genesis being the standard here. Quite the contrary: I want something that rivals it. Most importantly, Smith Micro needs to make one set of meshes, and then try and set some sort of standard with them. 

Otherwise, it will puts its own future at the mercy and charity of others.

--

Quote - Most evidence (forum posts, gallery images, survey results) is contaminated by self-selection bias.

This, right here.

Quote - Anyone know why the matsphere suddenly display like this? I've only seen this happen since the SR2.

I want these matshperes in the next version. They are so much easier to grab hold of and to manipulate!

I am not that much bothered about what content is provided for Poser or who provides it. I would like Smith Micro to make it easier to create our own content. Therefore I would love to see them improve the content creation tools and the cloth room. If they did this the sky would be the limit for all Poser users!

Long as you have that joint editor opened, go ahead & weight map it!  It is just 2 clicks!

Quote - Long as you have that joint editor opened, go ahead & weight map it!  It is just 2 clicks!

Unforunately I'm going for max compatibility otherwise I would.

Quote - > Quote - Long as you have that joint editor opened, go ahead & weight map it!  It is just 2 clicks!

Unforunately I'm going for max compatibility otherwise I would.

Well, you could always do a Legacy, a WM & a bundle.

I should have said, if the figure was weight mapped too. The figure in that image is Cookie and she isn't weight mapped.

I've just thought of something else I'd like in Poser. I like the cloth room but sometimes click on the setup room instead and turn the prop into a figure by mistake. It would be good to have an option not to do that.

It would also be good to have some of the windows resizable such as the export window etc. These are just cosmetic improvements but they would make the interface more user friendly. Overall though I am happy with the way Poser is progressing.