Soft Body breast effects without handlers, morphs - pure softbody dynamics.

how can it be, that we still not can do this in poser?

these dynamics are possible in all the games of today.

where are these dynamics in poser world?

You've been around for ten years and haven't found an app that you can import Poser content and apply your softbody dynamics to. What's with you for asking?

as a long time Poser person who would dearly love true soft-body dynamics, I agree with any inquiry, request or work-around.

However, an "attitude" is not really welcome.

This program started out as a simple way to pose a stick model in 3d. It is now magnificent, for $400 or on sale.

So be more respectful, OP.

::::: Opera :::::

Some use the cloth room to good effect.

jigglenamics?

danglienamics?

PhilC,

Your comment interests me a great deal. Can you elaborate on how you do it?

Or? Can be done with a magnet.

Load your figure.
Load a magnet on the group you want to squeeze.

=> You can add more groups if needed.

Center the magnet on the wall (or floor) in the area to be touched.
=> PhilC has very good tutorials on magnets on his site.

Make the MagZone VERY LARGE in X and Y; Say 5000
Make the MagZone only 1 to 2 deep in Z.
Put the magnet just forward of the MagBase in Z .
The MagZone should be HALF in front of the wall in Z. 

The MagZone should now be a huge circle paralell to the wall. But very small in Z, say about 1 to 2  inch.

Leave all as is.

When your figure comes close to the wall (or floor) the selected groups will come under the influence of the Magnet as she comes in the  MagZone.

And breasts will squeeze.

Takes some experimenting, but doable.

The Magnet and the MagnetZone do nothing to your figure, unless the selected groups come under the influence of the MagZone.

Att: Positioning is very sensitive, and YES, you can go too far and overrun the MagnetZone.

Quote - Soft Body breast effects without handlers, morphs - pure softbody dynamics.

how can it be, that we still not can do this in poser?

these dynamics are possible in all the games of today.

where are these dynamics in poser world?

Simple answer to your first question:

Poser is an entry level, hobbyist app at a very low price.  It can do remarkable things for the money and exceeds its original remit by several orders of magnitude.

As for games, they're optimized for a particular set of systems and generally use low poly models.  Poser has to work with high density meshes on a wide variety of systems.

Bottom line is, pay more money for a higher end app and you'll get all the soft body dynamics you want.  At Poser's price point, it'll be a while in coming. 

Yes PhilC, I am also curious how you can use the cloth room to create this affect.

Just clothify the part in question and set up a small animation to allow it to bump against something.

Although that could be made to work I'm a great believer in the KISS principle so if I needed to do this I would almost certainly use magnets.

Quote - Yes PhilC, I am also curious how you can use the cloth room to create this affect.

I read somewhere that bodies / body parts can be clothified as a prop, so I also would like to learn how to do it.

(Cross post with Phil C.)

I'll give it a try. I'm with the rest of the group. So far, magnets have given me the most realistic effects.

One more question PhilC out of the three choices

1 object vertex against cloth polygon

2 object polygon against cloth polygon

3 cloth self colision

which one would you want to select, for the part in question?

Thanks

I usually start with just cloth self colision then only add the other options if required.

Quote - You've been around for ten years and haven't found an app that you can import Poser content and apply your softbody dynamics to. What's with you for asking?

Well, I haven't.  I'd want it to import without losing morphs, have support for dynamic hair and cloth, while letting me add soft bodies to existing figures without re-rigging or weight mapping.  Are there really that many to choose from?  Are any under $1000?  I know neither blender or Carrara yet meet the above criteria. 

Quote - Simple answer to your first question:

Poser is an entry level, hobbyist app at a very low price.  It can do remarkable things for the money and exceeds its original remit by several orders of magnitude.

OK, then how about Poser Professional, which lists for $499.  Surely a professional program that exists solely to render figures should have some kind of soft body physics by now.  Why is everyone so quick to defend this glaring omission of the program?

Quote - As for games, they're optimized for a particular set of systems and generally use low poly models.  Poser has to work with high density meshes on a wide variety of systems.

Bottom line is, pay more money for a higher end app and you'll get all the soft body dynamics you want.  At Poser's price point, it'll be a while in coming. 

It already has been a while.  They could just do what Daz did with Carrara, and use bullet.  They could use a spring solver like Reallusion did with iClone...

Then again, I'm equally surprised no one from the community has tackled it either.  I'd hoped PoserPhysics would have provided a way, perhaps using magnets.  There are jello-magnets, but that limits motion to the morphs a part has (and I've never really had much luck with that either).

I really hope there's some attempt at providing a solution in the next version, I can't think of anything more important left to add at this point.

jiggly breasts aren't the top things i'd like to find in next poser. not even jiggly testicals.

(bookmarked)

Quote - jiggly breasts aren't the top things i'd like to find in next poser. not even jiggly testicals.

EEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW... 

Quote - jiggly breasts aren't the top things i'd like to find in next poser.

??? Huh ??? :huh:

What could be better than jiggly breasts? P.S.
I'm not joking, or being ironic. I'm serious!

Realistsic gravtiy based movements for animation purposes would be nice as a standard feature.  Not sure how it would work for a static shot unless we just click "Use Gravity" in the options list and it auto adjusts like it does for "Drop to Floor."

I have a very early version (more a "proof of concept" really) of a soft body dynamics simulation system up and running.  In general,  soft body dynamics will apply to a prop (ie.  a "Square Hi-Res" can be simulated as a ship's sail, or a "Ball Hi-Res" can be simulated as a "squishy" ball, box will deform when it hits the ground).  Soft body dynamics does not easily translate to a figure, since a figure is made up of many polygon groups, so it is not a simply solution to put the whole geometry into the simulator. 

So in summary, I don't think "Soft body dynamics" is really the solution to jiggly bits on figures - it solves other needs.

IMO, you would be far better off simply keyframe animating this type of effect for figures.

Soft Body breast effects without handlers, morphs - pure softbody dynamics.  how can it be, that we still not can do this in poser?  these dynamics are possible in all the games of today.

Could you pls provide a link showing a game which implements soft body breast effects?

Frankly, I didn't see anything in the text or the tone of the question that merited the reaction, but whatever. It's not exactly like saying, 'The King is a fink!' I agree with Moogal that given the nature of the program, SBD is would be something that I would have expected (and certainly hoped for) by now. There are a lot of things besides bobbing boobs that it would be useful for with figures interacting with objects or other figures. IMO, we're talking more automatic transmission here than heated llama skin seats; of course, everyone has their priorities. It may be a big technical challenge or they may not see it as a big priority. People seem to see it as a animation oriented feature which may explain it. Personally, I see the ability to easily have supple, yielding flesh as a big plus for still images as well and the ability to achieve it without setting up magnets etc. would be very nice.

there is zero need for a full physics softbody colllision/deformation simulation in poser -- for stills. you have everything needed now.

the demand for such an advanced capability for stills is absurd.

you can make andy smash against a wall and flatten himself, with the wall receiving the impression of his body. you create a still of a fist squashing another character's face with both deforming. and yes, you can pose a shot of two girls' breasts squishing against each other.

and yes, the OP has a disagreable attitude.

for animation of jigging body parts? please go to renderotica. find stimuli. ask him how he does it.

salute to face-off, who has already contributed quite a history to the improvement of Poser over many years, both in early quasi-SSS endeavors and for a full hardbody collision/ragdoll implementation for Poser, for even thinking through what it would take to get quasi-SB in Poser.

::::: Opera :::::

{edited to add for reasonable people: I am pretty sure stimuli hand keys his animation loops}

{edited again to second face-off's request for the complaintant to cite a game that contains softbody collision/deformation/rebound in realtime (not cut scenes) on the fly}

Quote - ***Soft Body breast effects without handlers, morphs - pure softbody dynamics.  how can it be, that we still not can do this in poser?  these dynamics are possible in all the games of today.***Could you pls provide a link showing a game which implements soft body breast effects?

I am not sure exactly what this means, but both Rumble Roses games and Dead or Alive Xrteme 2 have rather bouncy bits on all of the females (all are all-female games).  However, when pressed against an object, such as the wrestling mat or face down on a towel by the pool, I do not see the breasts flattening or any obvious "poke through" where parts of them simply disappear.  Probably just Collisions On and the rest of the toon adjusts when those polys impact the surface.

...I'm equally surprised no one from the community has tackled it either...

There really is not that much call for animation stuff in Poser. I have made everything that I use for them myself.

Just about anything that can be done in a high end app (softbody wise) can be faked in Poser with either magnets and the cloth room, or a combination of both.

Sounds like we're talking about more than one thing here...

True soft-body effects would allow parts to deform on collision. That would be great to have, though I understand why it is no small request.

The games which were mentioned (and also the most recent Soul Calibur as well) use what has been termed "jiggle-physics".  I understand if some people think this is a silly feature, but it has been implemented already in games, so it's hard for some of us to accept that it couldn't be done also in Poser.  

IClone has spring solvers, which would be great to have in Poser as they could probably do a large percentage of what people are wanting soft bodies for.

http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/help/iclone3/11_Props/Spring/Spring_Props.htm

But they are not the easiest thing to set up, and I don't believe they can easily be added to a figure within IClone/3DXChange.

Sparrowhawke has a "Jiggles "plug-in for Carrara that would be great to have for Poser.  I'm not sure that such a thing is overkill for still images, as images created with it look much more natural than the same images without it.  Body masses are soft, respond to gravity and react with inertia.  Whether or not I could properly deform a body part with a magnet or morph, it's the gravity and inertia that are the problem.  Could they be keyframed?  I know I'm not good enough at animating to do that over the course of a lengthy animation.  That is precisely the problem we would like to have a solution to.

It's not just breasts, but also bellies, buttocks, antennae, ears, tails, and transmapped hair are difficult to animate without an automated  jiggle or spring.

I guess you have not tried it, you can already do collision deformations, jiggles, etc, in Poser. You just have to set them up manually with what is in the program.

Collison offset here so you can see it. I do not remember which way I did this particular one, but there are 3 ways of doing it. Yes I said 3....

Poser is a low cost program that has come a long way, it can do many things that other "High End" software can do. But it can not do it all. Yet..

I have yet to figure out how to do convincing fluid dynamics, but collisions and jiggles are more than doable.

I would love for Poser to be able to do everything Houdini can do, but I don't think making it cost 10g per machine is what most people want either.

blender = $0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdusMZlBbQ4

Quote - blender = $0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdusMZlBbQ4

 

Yes, blender does do soft bodies nicely.  It doesn't import Poser figures as well, unfortunately.

So which program(s) do have soft bodies, import Poser content, have dynamic cloth and hair, and allow soft body effects to be applied to Poser figures without breaking their rigging and/or morphs?  I'm just curious as it's been implied that there are several...

who implied that "there are several?"

Attached Link: The Sound of Your Laughter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4

(The last animation, beginning at 2:25, was not easily done and I struggled to make the body movements sync with the piano.)

But, it's not just a woman's bosom that would be nice to have for soft body dynamics.  Even still renders, where one character is holding another--like the attached link, above, would look more realistic.

yes.  jiggly breasts good even if some are wildly offended by it.

but we need soft body dynamics for joints too, mashing of skin against skin in every area of the body.  say the arm resting against the chest or hands on the legs.  how about the skin on the cheeks or below the chin bouncing a touch or the muscles on the arms sloushing around?  when i've ever needed it i've done it by magnets and keyframing, but that's pretty tedious. 

so here's rationale for that, minus the whole breast thing, though i don't know why that should be neccessary.  breasts should not equal evil when we're working on art right?  where would the art of the masters be with that kind of attitude?

i don't expect this to happen anytime soon though.  i think it would probably require two entire meshes.

we're gonna need a denser mesh too.

posters should specify if they are speaking of stills or animation.

in the prior post, if for stillls, you can do all that now.

There are a few reasons you want them on another skeleton. One is, you can use it with just about any character that shares the bone structure with very little work.  There is nothing for them to affect on the rig it is on, no geometry at all. You can just select what you want them to affect to keep memory usage down.

If you are going the clothify route, many of the hidden cloth room settings dorkmcgork mentioned in another thread come into play.

@Opera

Sorry, I don't see the attidude that you apparently do. There was no 'Poser sucks' etc. simply a question about a feature. Since when is that a sin? I think some folks here have circled the wagons to the point that any 

legitimate query is viewed as an attack on holy writ - which is sad. It's great to discuss the existing features that may meet the need or even the need itself sans jumping on the messenger. As to the applicability, IMO, that 

is a matter of opinion. I don't animate, but I'd love to have fluid dynamics for splashes, streams etc. in  stills. People use cloth and hair dynamics for still images because they produce more realistic results. You may 

see the need as de minimis or the existing solutions as sufficient but I hardly think that makes the idea 'absurd.' I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Wrong: there is an element of "poser sucks" in the first post and a repeat of the insistance further along that Poser should have these features or it is lame/sucks. you are in denial.

Meanwhile, there is no circling of the wagons about SP aleternatives, people are discussing alternatives, despite the opening ingratitude. and there is no "holy writ." I have been inquiring about Soft Body dynamics for years, and have had interaction with face-off about it. my attack is on the attitude of rude entitlement, not the exploration of the feature or the need for it.

I will repeat my contention, which you interpreted incorrectly: it is absurd to demand full softbody dynamics implementation [or else Poser sucks!] if you are creating stills that simply need a squish or deformation, including springback. You can do it now, while waiting for full-blown SB.

And expressing some respect for what the program can already do.

::::: Opera :::::

To whomever has a high attitude reading on thier meter

Look IF I caused this I would like to clarify the OP's "tone" indicated to me that features not present in Poser (any ver.) somehow restricted his/her/its artistic development. This tickled my irony receptor in a way that caused a post reflex a post which could easily be seen as mocking

@jimTS for my part, no your post did not contribute to my perception of attitude in the OP. I formed that all on my own. I am more reactant to moogal who -- unless i am TOTALLY missing the irony -- is using the "should word" although couched in "would have expected it". Meanwhile, the OP has not returned to justify his "all games have it" throw-in.

Anyway, for my own part, i have no need to carry on the 'attitude of ingratitude' discussion; the potential work-arounds in this thread that I have never heard of are fascinating and cool. That's what I propose we focus on.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - who implied that "there are several?"

A post earlier in the thread made it sound like anyone using Poser for 10 years would know of at least one program in which you could load your Poser figure and apply soft-body effects.

I've been using Poser for 10+ years and am guessing it's Cinema and Fusion, or Shade.  Not something I would consider common knowledge, given I had to think about it and might be completely wrong....

Everything I can think of uses a mataball Gizmo or Null thing that would "count as a deformer"

and I said An Application singular

Quote - You've been around for ten years and haven't found an app that you can import Poser content and apply your softbody dynamics to. What's with you for asking?

No it's no going to natively support Poser dynamics texture nodes or much else But Poser Poses Better than it renders (lights mostly)

OP: Actually, you can't do that in any game. They have cutscenes rendered in high end software, or an animated 'titty loop', and that is about it. the polygon budget requirements for sbd can get huge. The calculations for -any- kind of dynamic are intense....and since most games today have to somehow work on fossils like the Xbox 360 & Playstation whatever number, both of which have all of 512megs to handle a game executable with, well.....

face_off: Cooooooool. I can foresee, if your implementation works out, an end to all the grumps about chairs and beds and other objects-de-sit-on.

I would dearly love some form of softskin dynamics; I animate, and the time it takes tweaking magnets, adjusting falloff strength for same, realigning things to avoid apparently squishing a bone, etc  gets to be prohibitive. But I also know that we've had hair dynamics and cloth dynamics since Poser 5, and the number of people who open that tab once and run screaming is legion. Skin dynamics would be just as complex, if not more so. And currently, would require changes in Poser that would totally break its system. There would have to be an armature of some kind beneath the dynamic parts (just like you have to use current morphs to animate breast-bounce =before= you run a dynamic cloth sim). Such an armature is quite -possible-; we already have an exoskeletal version of that with conforming clothes. And Shvrdavid's magneto-deforming skeleton, for that matter (very cool concept and I'd hate to try and build one. Magnets and I don't see eye to eye for some reason...). But there -has- to be some 'bone analog' for the deformer to meet resistance from. That armature would add significantly to the polygon budget of =any= Poser figure. And that doesn't get into the issues of scaling and morphing that a Poser mesh is gleefully submitted to. There may be a way to do the armature-proxy sub structure that would be needed (Ghu knows the community has come up with some incredible hacks, work-arounds, and basic concepts over the years); never going to see a skeletal/muscle system like Maya and customized animation apps have. Those Who Animate (ie: The Poser Twelve :P ) would have no doubt disgusting biological responses over the frosty goodness.....but then again, we also know about spending time wisely for best effect. Most of the still artists look at dynamics as a waste of time, and as the comparative lack in advances in animation controls indicate, the still artists have the upper hand where resources tend to go....

Quote - @jimTS for my part, no your post did not contribute to my perception of attitude in the OP. I formed that all on my own. I am more reactant to moogal who -- unless i am TOTALLY missing the irony -- is using the "should word" although couched in "would have expected it". Meanwhile, the OP has not returned to justify his "all games have it" throw-in.

Anyway, for my own part, i have no need to carry on the 'attitude of ingratitude' discussion; the potential work-arounds in this thread that I have never heard of are fascinating and cool. That's what I propose we focus on.

 

::::: Opera :::::

The "should word"....  Yes, I think Poser "should" have this feature.  I thought it "should" have had some solution for it two versions ago.  If anyone is working on the next version of Poser, IMHO soft or spring dynamics is a feature that "should" be considered.

I did expect some semblance of soft/spring dynamics for the last two releases (either would be an obvious feature for this program).  It's not unrealistic for a program at this price to have this feature (especially with bullet being open source).  I bought Poser, I pay for upgrades, and this really is something many other users want.  I only voice my opinion whenever this is discussed in hopes that someone who could do something about it will take notice (squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that...). 

I'm not quite sure how my words come across to others, but the old "Poser is a hobby app" apology stopped working for me when I upgraded to Poser Pro.

The work-arounds are fascinating and show that a better solution is not that unreasonable a request.

There are a bajillion features I'd like to have, up to (and including) a working "make art" button, but lack of soft/spring/jiggle physics is the one I consider a real shortcoming of the program as it stands.

Yeah...I didn't read any particular attitude either.

Tho we really may not need soft body dynamics (hey, I do everything with magnets and the morph brush..heh), it would be nice. And we all like "nice", right? ;) Why get so upset when ppl say they'd like a certain thing or why don't we have it yet? Hell, I want a million bucks. Don't mean I'm gonna get it - but I keep SAYING it..lol. And by saying it, I'm not harming anyone (except maybe those who have their own, odd conceptions and how they perceive it, however my intentions, is on them).

Laurie

Quote - Collison setups that are magnet based need very little keying information in them at all. Basically all you do is create a conforming character that has nothing more than magnets on the bones that are set up for the collisions, and a file to make all of them affect the character(s) body parts you want them to affect. Once you have it set up, you just load it just like you would clothes, conform it, and run the pose file to make it work on the character, clothes, etc. The picture above is just a simple hand setup that I made, it is in my Poser 6 runtime, so it has been possible for many years now.

I don't understand what you've done here.  Can you please explain?

I found this example of what I wish Poser had.  Yes it is a rather silly program, but the effect is well implemented and runs in real time.  I'd like to be able to freely apply this type of dynamic to existing figures and props, as it would be very tedious to animate this by hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1mvKbje0I

I'm not looking to make giant breasts or anything "objectifying", I just want natural looking animations without the unnecessary effort.  If this feature were implemented the way I'd like, my first use of it would more likely be to try and give bounce to the transmapped hair I use. 

I never intended to disparage the program for not yet having this feature.  I just don't agree with those who feel the feature is unnecessary, or too high-end for Poser's price range.  Dynamic cloth and hair were once considered "high end" features, but the developers of Poser wisely realized those were logical features for a character animation program to have, and so now we do.  I feel precisely this way about soft-body/spring dynamics.

I don't see the distinction between stills and animations, except that manually simulating this effect is doable for stills but time prohibitive for animations.  Having a spring object (similar to our magnets and waves) would simply the creation of both, and might possibly look better as well.

dale, face-off, anyone: Carrara has a feature where you can indicate the DIRECTION of gravity!

any sim engine, including the current cloth engine, that would respect the direction of 'gravity' on a figure/prop/group by figure/prop/group might be quite interesting.

Poser's cloth sim already has a control for gravity strength. Any chance gravity direction/vector would be fairly simple to activate?

::::: Opera :::::

yeah gravity control would be cool too.  how about also an option to force loops to slide along the mesh when the mesh compresses so that tight clothes polys don't overcut each other and then find themselves being forced through each other?  it could work with an angle limiting factor, that will not allow angles of normals to exceed a setable number.

i have run screaming from the dynamics, but i hate doing anything without them.  conforming cloth is just gagtacular to me, even when the detail is as amazing as it often is.

hair dynamics in 2010 is just as big a mess as it ever was as far as i've seen, but still looks far better than transmapped.  any neat improvements in the new versions?

hair: "...any neat improvements in the new versions?"

Generating the simulation is faster.

"will not allow angles of normals to exceed a setable number." i wonder if that is the same thing as "fold resistance" in the cloth engine.

maybe that's true.  but i've set fold resistance to 1000 and still get ugly folds cutting through each other on tight cloth.  if the loops would slide back and forth then maybe i wouldn't have that.   i've turned friction totally off to get good sliding, and that is working okay.

anyway i'm still working on a sim of stocking-like garment on the thighs and hip, really more of a bicycle short.  i've morphed the joint so there are no poly collisions between the hip and thigh, which will throw error and tear the cloth.  i'm getting better success from a very dense mesh. 

whoops now i'm hijacking the thread though so i'm moving on from this narrowness.