Quote - Just for those who have difficulty understanding: A cage is a 'mesh' of which the verrtices (usually called 'nodes') are attraction points, not surface definition points. Compare it with the positions of magnets when you try to pull a flat surface into a shape using a grid of magnets covering a certain local part of the mesh. So, if you want to model a local hump, you have to pull the magnet governing the spot far out, so, if you represent the magnet positions as a mesh, it will show a local peak. 

We are therefore looking not at a geometry definition, but at raw data that is intended to be used in a specific process to make a geometric definition. That this raw data very much looks like a geometric definition and in face can be represented as one if you take the node positions as vertex positions and take the cells between the nodes as polygons, can be convenient in some cases. The cage, so represented, even looks very much like the final geometry. 

Catmull-Clark subdivision (or rather interpretation of a mesh as a cage and generation of a new geometry from this cage) causes drift of the definition. The new geometry is not where the original vertices were. Look at the famous example of a cube transforming into a sphere:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catmull%E2%80%93Clark_subdivision_surface) The corner points of the original box are not on the surface of the sphere. There are ways to fix this, of course, but those are to my knowledge not applied in DS.

For that reason this type of smoothing can not generally be used for any purpose where accurate interplation of the surface trough the definition points (which may be results of measurements) is required.

The drift of the definition (or the distance between the smoothed surface and the original definition point) is proportional to the ratio of the distance between the nodes of the cage and the average radius of curvature. A ring defined with a coarse cage may  disappear into a finger defined by a fine cage.  

Also note that when a surface is subdivided it loses detail. The only information used is the XYZ position of the nodes. Even the information in the normals is not used.  Depending on the distribution of distances and angles between the 'edges' of the definition grid, local exitation can occur and, yes, when used in a cunning way, this can be used to some extent to simulate detail. 

I think that most of the misunderstanding comes from the fact that the "cage" is the thing being exported to poser. If it had been een single subdivided mesh, it would have looked better and this misunderstanding would not have happened.
If they have done this deliberately, I don't understand the rationale behind it and the instruction to specifically choose the "high definition" mesh is a complete mystery if the base mesh/cage is exported

I think most of the poser users who were interested in genesis gave up after they saw the ears

IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

Interesting addon Snarly!

If you added group retention to the mesh code, you could easily just spawn a new character using very similar code.

Quote - IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

Look. It works great in Daz like its supposed to. That is how it was designed. I'm sure they didnt develope the mesh at the time wondering how it would look in poser. If that was the case, Genesis would not be so low poly and you would have a better sub-d cage. But because its designed to use CC sub-D, That low poly count is perfectly fine.

Yes,I gave up mainly because of the ears.  they were kind of the last straw.  but this looks promising.

Love esther

Quote - > Quote - IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

Look. It works great in Daz like its supposed to. That is how it was designed. I'm sure they didnt develope the mesh at the time wondering how it would look in poser. If that was the case, Genesis would not be so low poly and you would have a better sub-d cage. But because its designed to use CC sub-D, That low poly count is perfectly fine.

No, they did not design the morphs to look good in Poser. But they did not even bother to look at the exported mesh in Poser when they released the exporter - that worries me. If so, they would have seen that the wrong mesh was being exported.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

Look. It works great in Daz like its supposed to. That is how it was designed. I'm sure they didnt develope the mesh at the time wondering how it would look in poser. If that was the case, Genesis would not be so low poly and you would have a better sub-d cage. But because its designed to use CC sub-D, That low poly count is perfectly fine.

No, they did not design the morphs to look good in Poser. But they did not even bother to look at the exported mesh in Poser when they released the exporter - that worries me. If so, they would have seen that the wrong mesh was being exported.

 

 

Very True. Maybe it will be resolved or maybe not. Time will tell. There could be a reason it only exports at the base. Daz has the answers. I'll actually ask.

I started a thread.

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/6414/

No need to do that... remember, Genesis is a system for creating characters, not a standalone character. Since Poser does not support the dsf file format, those cages were exported in a cr2... however, as DAZ has stated, you still need to subdivide the cages to get the same look. You are dealing with the same cages as DS does, however how those cages are handled are different, since there was no facility for subdividing those cages in Poser.

The exporter is not designed to be a standalone solution. It was a alternate solution to get the cages in poser.

I must be missing something. How do you get this script tp work? I ran it, but nothing happened. I do have sr3 so that's not it. Any suggestions?

If you have installed it according to the filestructure in the zip, it is in the meny Window!Addons

Once started, select a bodypart of the figure you want to subdivide and press the subdivide button. Wait a few seconds and render

You might see nothing in the preview because it makes an identical copy of the figure and hides the original

Sorry to interrupt, but I'm curious about something Laurie said.

Quote - It's not made for V3 or V4...why the heck would ya wanna subdivide something that's smooth enough? Only really low rez stuff you'd wanna subdivide...

Laurie

If you could just subdivide V4's armpits (the "collar" in V4's terminology), would that improve the funny creases you get there when the arms are down? I know about V4-WM and all the fixes, I'm trying them all, but it seems to me something is still off there even after the fixes are applied. I wonder if this might help V4 in that regard.

Thanks

I'm hardly surprised,  usual suspects, usual pissing contests.  can we stop fighting over daz and genesis long enough to stay on the topic of subdivision and poser.. as is the topic of the thread.  I get that genesis naturally plays into this discussion, but neither its quality as a mesh or cage or whatever we want to call it, nor daz's intentions in regards to it do.  The only mention of genesis that really belongs in this thread is how Snarlys cool new gift to the community affects the use of genesis in poser and what limits there may or may not be to its application.

Snarly- as I have said- you are without a doubt the Epitome of what a Snarly should be-and no doubt the Gribbliest of ALL Snarlies! Thanks again for something fantastic!

Wimvdb: thanks for the examples- I'm with Esther-all my DS to Poser Genesis exports came to a screeching halt over the ears-CC subD in Poser- wow!

Cage- good to see your presence once more!!

In my thread somebody said this

All the morphs are made from the base mesh.  The exporter would have to be able export out not only the sub-d mesh but all the morph deltas sub-d without changing vertex order.

Quote - In my thread somebody said this

All the morphs are made from the base mesh.  The exporter would have to be able export out not only the sub-d mesh but all the morph deltas sub-d without changing vertex order.

That would be one solution, but it would require further action from DAZ which will not bring them much return; It would mean unleashing their Genesis figure in Poser and there would be no need for Poser users to ever start their DS front-end again.  

Note that with every subdividision step in the mesh, the number of vertex deltas and weights for Weight-mapped joints rises exponentially, and if you copy this rise again in the deltas and weights you end up with a memory hog. The rough low-res mesh+subdivision approach was necessary to keep memory requirements within limits. The consumer type user is DS (and Poser) bread and butter. 

The cunning route Snarly has now so kindly opened for us of course permits to work like DS does: subdivide only just before you render.  If the script is appended with  commands to kick start the renderer and upon completion delete the subdivided mesh and turn the figure visible again, you would have the transparant one-click solution.  

There is one issue of course, and that is connection. As said, there is not only the number of vertices, but subdivision causes drift in the geometry description. The original vertices are moved. So, if you subd one object, say the head, the geometry will no longer fit at the neck. So, you have to choose one single single mesh to maintain the connections.   

Let me exsplain ,you would render the millions polycount V4 in zBrush ,even on a home PC.

The app's Poser Pro is a plug for all have SubD.

V3 was modeled in Lightwave.
V4 was model in Modo.
V5 was modeled in Modo.

For there time and there porpose there are no better.

The creators of Vicky are the Leonardo Da Vinci ,Michelangelo of CGI Charactors.

The memory issue is not with render but with posing/preview. Why waste resources when you do not need them? Users of the apps you mention usually have something more than a home PC to work on. 

Quote - In my thread somebody said this

All the morphs are made from the base mesh.  The exporter would have to be able export out not only the sub-d mesh but all the morph deltas sub-d without changing vertex order.

Colorcurvatures's subdivision script subdivided morphs.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work on weightmapped figures because the weight maps need to be subdivided as well...

Quote - The cunning route Snarly has now so kindly opened for us of course permits to work like DS does: subdivide only just before you render.  If the script is appended with  commands to kick start the renderer and upon completion delete the subdivided mesh and turn the figure visible again, you would have the transparant one-click solution.  

Strictly, DS applies a low level (once or twice usually) to the viewport, but the real SubD is applied at rendertime by 3Delight (like Poser's polygon smoothing in Firefly, as far as I know) - how far that rendertime SubD goes depends on the render settings. But as you say, SubDing the final shape as late as possible does reduce the system load - though presumably this is, for now, practical for still-images only.

[Commentary on deleted posts removed by moderator]

..............................

I have been playing around with it, and it works very well on characters. Some of the hair props I tried freaked out, but no biggy there. I suspect there is a mesh issue in the hair that freaked out.

You can add tons of detail to the prop it creates with the Morph Brush. With selectable levels you could add all the detail you ever wanted to it.

If it retained grouping info you could make it a character rather easily with it. There really would not be a need to have all the morphs in it, but that is doable as well.

Creating a super high poly character is not the best option if your system can not work with it thou. Buy if you are using a low poly character and subdividing it to about the normal poly count of another character, it could be worth saving it as new character.

Just an fyi. If you leave a part hidden, it does not get included in the subdivition or the prop that results.

You can also, if you want, turn the person back into a figure easily in the setup room. just load the figure again and allow for autogrouping. It will break the morphs but you can then repose so you can use this for animations too.

Quote - Guys, I'm not going to be around for a day or two.

Why not have a go with the script yourselves and post some results here?

Download page

Awesome. Just caught this thread. Snarlygribbly that's impressive stuff! :thumbupboth:

After I'd posted the questions I'd had about subd, on the Daz forum and I think in a thread or two here... and Laurie had told me UVs should generally be okay.. I've been playing around a bit with the idea of a Genesis in Poser workflow that just used Hexagon's subd, and a manual import / export of the obj.

I'd started experimenting subd'ing just key body parts etc. It kind of worked, per the discusions in this thread so far, I guess. Didn't get very far with it... I was planning to try the idea out using ZBrush / GoZ, now I've got that.

I'll give this a shot and see how it goes...

...regardless of its application to Genesis, I suspect this could just be a great utlility to have handy in Poser.

Cheers :biggrin:

Quote - ...You can also, if you want, turn the person back into a figure easily in the setup room. just load the figure again and allow for autogrouping...

Autogrouping has majorly improved in the last few releases, but internal things like the eyes and tongue usually never group right with the auto group. The hands/fingers can get torn to pieces as well. This makes animating the autogrouped character next to impossible if the grouping tears the mesh when you pose it. I do almost all of my grouping in Blender, working with Poser stuff in Blender has improved as well.

I have yet to find an easy solution for transfering the morphs from the original character to a subdivided or modified mesh.

.................

Now that we have some more Python commands to work with, addons can be made that only use Python as the gateway to and from Poser, and the addon can be an executable. Doing it that way will make anything you do worlds faster than using Python alone.

I am sure that we will see more than a few addons that use Python strictly as the gateway, and a executable capable of using the cpu/gpu for the rest of it.

Anything done to a wireframe will be far faster when done on the gpu on the average Poser users system. With Pixars release of much of the source code to do that, things could get very interesting in terms of what Poser can do with addons.

I am not sure what other programming languages Snarly uses. If he uses C++ or Fortran, things could get very interesting indeed.

If anyone is interested in newest ideas for C++ or Fortran, search "Many Integrated Core Architecture" on Intels site. None of it applies to desktop computers, so tread lightly there. Most of that is for very high end systems, that we cannot buy yet.... (Knights Corner stuff that has not been released, etc) But is is good reading if you are interested in what is coming next in terms of raw processing power.

My apologies if this has already been discussed as I only read about 1/3 of the whole thread...

While "better smoothing" is a worthy goal, isn't the hidden benefit the fact that intense subdivision where you want it gives you the ability to go in with the MorphBrushTool and sculpt in fine detail?

For instance, around the eyes. One hindrance to getting complexity around the eyes is: not enough polys to move around. With massive subdivision in a small area, you could than work up very fine detail, asymmetry and complex folding.

While exporting the head and subdividing, then re-importing (I use MeshLab) is a pipeline, having both the subdivision and sculpt tool inside Poser is a very welcome prospect.

I echo the various shout outs to Snarly for this effort and his steadfast belief that there is no such thing as a final "can't".

Quote - My apologies if this has already been discussed as I only read about 1/3 of the whole thread...

While "better smoothing" is a worthy goal, isn't the hidden benefit the fact that intense subdivision where you want it gives you the ability to go in with the MorphBrushTool and sculpt in fine detail?

For instance, around the eyes. One hindrance to getting complexity around the eyes is: not enough polys to move around. With massive subdivision in a small area, you could than work up very fine detail, asymmetry and complex folding.

While exporting the head and subdividing, then re-importing (I use MeshLab) is a pipeline, having both the subdivision and sculpt tool inside Poser is a very welcome prospect.

I echo the various shout outs to Snarly for this effort and his steadfast belief that there is no such thing as a final "can't".

Sounds like your kinda talking about what thay call micro displacment maps.

I make them in zBrush.

I would think other app's can make them now.

Mudd ,Blender ,C4D probably can make them ,I'm not sure thou never tryed with them.

Quote - If you have installed it according to the filestructure in the zip, it is in the meny Window!Addons

Once started, select a bodypart of the figure you want to subdivide and press the subdivide button. Wait a few seconds and render

You might see nothing in the preview because it makes an identical copy of the figure and hides the original

 

Would you mind taking a screenshot of this Subdivide button? As when I run the script it just shows the credit pop-up, then nothing seems to change on the interface.

RorrKonn re: outside displacement maps etc.

Why go outside when the weather inside is wonderful, custom subdivide+PoserMorphBrushTool?

On another note, I hope we see Carodan wandering thru Poser with these new tools soon.

Thank you for the screenshot RedPhantom. I wasn't getting that window, had to go change another python script to allow it to show up.  Working perfectly now.

Quote - The cunning route Snarly has now so kindly opened for us of course permits to work like DS does: subdivide only just before you render.  If the script is appended with  commands to kick start the renderer and upon completion delete the subdivided mesh and turn the figure visible again, you would have the transparant one-click solution.

This was, in fact, my original intention.

My source code is still saved as 'ccrender.py', meaning Catmull-Clark Render.

I have a few other priorities right now, but you can expect to see this eventually.

Snarlygribbly - excellent! this looks like a really great step forward :D

Cheers,

Cliff

P.S. I know my sig says SR2, but I'm running SR3 now.

Quote - I get this error message when I try to run the script.

P.S. I know my sig says SR2, but I'm running SR3 now.

That appears to be a different script altogether ...

Hmm, okay. I'll redownload.

Okay, installed the wrong thing. Have the right thing installed now. Can't get it to run.

Quote - Okay, installed the wrong thing. Have the right thing installed now. Can't get it to run.

You don't run it, as such. At least, not in the way you would normally run a script.
You select it from the 'addons' menu, and Poser will then run it for you.

It will appear in Poser's Window/Addons menu if you have unzipped the files in the zip to any linked runtime, keeping the folder structure intact.

Quote - This was, in fact, my original intention.

My source code is still saved as 'ccrender.py', meaning Catmull-Clark Render.

I have a few other priorities right now, but you can expect to see this eventually.

On the left the original lowpoly strandbased transmapped hair; on the right subd'd with snarlys script.

The overall kinks are out and the roots are so much better.

wait....is this Poser HairRoomstrand hair, or a prop?

This is the original lowpolywire with plane strands.

wow. subdivide prop transmaped hair and get good results. cool.

I updated the addon: v1.1 allows up to three levels of subdivision and works on props too, without the need for them to be parented to anything.

Snarly, i clicked everywhere attempting to register for your forum, can't find how.

http://www.snarlygribbly.org/3d/forum/

Quote - Snarly, i clicked everywhere attempting to register for your forum, can't find how.

Due to constant spam attacks I have had to disable registrations.

No registration is needed for downloads though :-)

** I've just re-enabled registrations for ya **

I'll leave them enabled for the rest of the evening, then switch 'em off again.

mission accomplished, registered.

also downloaded v1.1

thanks!

so say I have 5 genesis people in my scene can I select all of them to subdivide in one hit, or do I have to do them one at a time?

and presumably the morphs dont work once they have been subdivided?

Love esther

You presume correctly, morphs do not work after subdivision.  As Snarly states, do and finalize all your morphs and poses before applying the script.