OOOH a new render! Thank you <3

Happy 4th! thanks for the teaser Mab! :) Does she have DS settings for SSS?

Quote - In a world of vastly different body shapes...who can really comment on what is "realism".....

 

I mean really!!!

 

Thanks. Now my retinas are scarred. But seriously, the disparity between his upper and lower body is really weird. I wonder if it's been photoshopped.

I just pray that nobody uses this as a model for a new morph for Dawn...

Not to mention brows that wander out past the ears like wings.

I've been texturing vases (see above), which also has nothing to do with Dawn, but it does have to with flowers.

So.... its 10:30 am Friday! OOkay, that's just this side of the world...  I don't think its Frday yet in Hivewire time... still.... feels like an extra long wait for me!! eek! :)

Quote - shante, let's be serious for a moment shall we?

When Chris Creek created Dawn which no doubt was a great effort, he must have consciously or subconsciously modeled her after his ideal woman to be. You can see it most pronouncedly in the mouth which is the mirror of the soul. Most definite mischievous so alive, so much better than V4. Then I make up a bit of course, we are having fun or are we not? But the wickedness is Chris Creek's original invention. He was a real artist before the 3D period in his life..

Well, though this may not be the right venue....and yes this inoffensive verbal fencing is great fun, I still am not convinced you may not know all this for sure. It would be nice if Chris stepped in and graciously contribute to your, what I am still convinced is conjecture. To feel so sure of your belief, to glean so much information from a 3D mesh is beyond the pale.

Chris...are you there? Would you please settle this and tell us a little about Dawn's personality.  :)

Quote - > Quote - Afrodite-Ohki,

I think you are right on the nail there! Like Elvis Presley who was 1/16 Amerindian.

I was thinking of something a bit more than that.

This is what I have in mind:

 

Of course, after I make that clothing set. I'm itching to do some modelling!

If you do something like that for Dawn, I'll buy it. I need more Native American things (morphs, skin textures, etc.).

Quote - This is a DS render of Dawn.  This is an out of the box render in DS using just her basic stuff, the stuff that will be free when she is launched.

Now, back to work texturing flowers, which have nothing to do with Dawn.  >_>

....cept maybe Dawn can enjoy the flowers in a scene some time.

 

Happy 4th of July to those celebrating and I hope everyone has a good day.

 

 

Wow! I really like that. And the bikini's color scheme is perfect for the 4th.

Quote - > Quote - In a world of vastly different body shapes...who can really comment on what is "realism".....

 

I mean really!!!

 

 

Thanks. Now my retinas are scarred. But seriously, the disparity between his upper and lower body is really weird. I wonder if it's been photoshopped.

I just pray that nobody uses this as a model for a new morph for Dawn...

LMAO -- again.  :-)

That poor man.  Thank goodness, his face isn't showing.

He desperately needs a wifebeater though -- with the logo "I kicked anorexia's @$$."

Sorry, sorry -- I'm fixated on that picture. 

Bee-U-tiful Dawn render!!!  Thank you, Queen Mab!   

Quote - I am not sure, but there is something called mix brick that we need to look into..

I'm not sure what the blender node in Poser does...there is more than likely something that will do the same effect. Can you show me an example of what you are trying to achieve?

I use the mix brick a lot.

The mix brick will do lots of different things including using masks to create patterns where you can change the colours.

There is also a brick called edge blend which allows blending between two different colours.

I'm not an expert but if it's something simple I can possibly help.

Quote - I'll quietly chime in that I'm fond of transmapped brows also. :) It's nice to have the option available.

It may be possible (for someone who can model, that person is not me) to make a conformer for the brow region. I haven't read through the entirety of the thread to see if some of the auto-follow or morph-helping features are in play to know how potentially easy or hard this would be to fit to any included morphs, but brows are in an area where you'd really want to hope that's the case, since most head morphs (shapes and expressions) would be in play there.

Without a conformer or brow geometry, Poser can handle this with masks and blender nodes, but depending on how wild any potential makeup on the face is, you may end up with a bit of a blend line if the differences are fairly stark. Likely not something you'd notice at a distance, but may be visible in some close up renders. DS has the shader bricks  -- which sadly I know less than nothing about -- and the Layered Image Editor (L.I.E.) that could probably manage it quite well. The way L.I.E. works has changed a bit in recent versions from its 'original' form; I used to be able to offer some advice on 'the old version' but will admit to being somewhat at a loss with its more recent incarnation.

(I'm working blearily through the holiday. Somebody grill a hot dog in my honor, maybe? :) )

Years ago someone created a wonderful multi-ethnic texture set for Vicki1/2 and sold it via DAZ.I think it was A to Z for Vicki1/2 (or something like that). I still use the set when I use V2 (which I also still use despite her short comings beside V4). That set used a vatriety of body texture/tonal value/ethnic colors accompanied with a variety of brow and lask thickness and density and color. A wonderful set that allowed so much versatility I wish others were created for V4.

Something like that would be wonderful for Dawn. I believe then, that V2 had an extra bit of mesh you could make disappear into the skull like her lashes, by spinning a dial. Do changes need to be made to dwa's mesh to add this extra bit of so lovely and versatile mesh for variety in more realistic brows?

Quote - This is a DS render of Dawn.  This is an out of the box render in DS using just her basic stuff, the stuff that will be free when she is launched.

Now, back to work texturing flowers, which have nothing to do with Dawn.  >_>

....cept maybe Dawn can enjoy the flowers in a scene some time.

 

Happy 4th of July to those celebrating and I hope everyone has a good day.

 

 

Lovely. Hard to believe that this is out of the box. What a wonderful figure.

Some things I definitely want to see in the future are ethnic morphs (come to think of it, though, is there anyone on the planet without some sort of ethnicity?), monster/alien morphs, and so on. I'm sure they've been mentioned already in the thread, but I forget things, so I'm adding my 2 cents.

I was also wondering if Dawn will support any sort of geografting (or whatever the Poser equivalent is; I've only used D/S)? RawArt has done some amazing things with geografting on, er, other company's products, and it would be nice to see some of that sort of versatility with this new lovely lady.

Quote - Hair grown on the brows is always the way I prefer to go for close up renders of the face.  Don't need them painted on, don't need a separate mesh, and you can change them on the fly from mussed to groomed.

Do you mean in poser, with the hair room? If so I'd love some pointers on how to do this, I've tried many times and the results were, not good.

Quote -> Quote -I can't see a problem with displacement maps, otherwise all those 2nd skin textures you can find on various sites wouldn't be legal as well.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

You are correct, there's nothing wrong with displacement maps the way they are used in Poserdom.
RK is mixing in some totally different methods and techniques that are used in gaming and sometimes in sculpting, and creating confusion about copyright issues.

The way displacement maps are used for Poser, sculpting a displacement map to add detail to the same mesh it was sculpted from does not 'steal the shape' or violate the mesh copyright in any way. Especially adding veins or body definition or even second skin clothing via displacement map, it does not infringe on the mesh ciopyright (because you can not use it without the underlying mesh to produce the mesh shape, that info doesn't get baked into the displacement map)

Quote -Ok, might as well ask them properly then:

 

HiveWire folks, are we allowed to use shrink wrap tools and retopology extracting tools to make tight clothes for Dawn?

With V4 and Genesis the DAZ answer to that was no. The only thing they would allow is modeling around the mesh (pushing and pulling vertices, eyeballing things)
In practice, with tight clothing if the topology is very different, it is usually near impossible to tell what kind of a modeling methid was used.

Same EULA stands for Smith Micro figures and few third party figures I checked over time. I expect Dawn will be the same case.

But here's the part I really don't get.
For a mesh to be successful, content makers need to make content.
But then they give us all the rules that makes making content harder.
I did not get C4D,zBrush etc etc not to use there tools.

I will not make displacement maps for any mesh without permission by the owners.

Quote - I'm not sure what the blender node in Poser does...there is more than likely something that will do the same effect. Can you show me an example of what you are trying to achieve? 

That should be easy enough...here's an image using shadermixer to create the texture on the skirt. This one uses lots of different bricks to get the final effect but the main pattern and colours are done using the mix block.

that's lovely Pendraia! Nice to see you here :)

thanks, waves back at Alia.  

Here's an image of using the mix brick with an image and tiler brick plugged in.

Here's same image with different colours set on mix brick.

No- it is Photoshop that is papa.

Neither mix brick nor blending nodes is the correct way to do it IMO, except possible at the concept stage. Sergio Martinez(Xurge) showed at the seminar he held the 8 and 9th June how he organized everything with the help of one big Photoshop master file (well two actually). All orderly and distinct placed on seperate layers

Material areas, borders, bump, displacement, ornamental patters, even down to stiches, everything had its own layer and could be manipulated and changed with a click. (blend styles as well as displacement). That made blender and mix nodes look like a toy. And the finished maps could be used in any application, not only Daz and Poser. Its all about being organized.

Quote - No- it is Photoshop that is papa.

Neither mix brick nor blending nodes is the correct way to do it IMO, except possible at the concept stage. Sergio Martinez(Xurge) showed at the seminar he held the 8 and 9th June how he organized everything with the help of one big Photoshop master file (well two actually). All orderly and distinct placed on seperate layers

Material areas, borders, bump, displacement, ornamental patters, even down to stiches, everything had its own layer and could be manipulated and changed with a click. (blend styles as well as displacement). That made blender and mix nodes look like a toy. And the finished maps could be used in any application, not only Daz and Poser. Its all about being organized.

Yes, you can set up a psd file with maps for all the different aspects you want to include. This is a different approach and they are both valid approaches.  

When I create texture maps for something I do it all on the one psd file and have maps for displacement, specular etc in the one file.

There is no one right way only different approaches to suit what you are trying to achieve. 

 Edited to add...I actually use folders for different maps and group the different layers together that makes for easier editing later on.

Cheers

Pen

What impressed me most was how Xurge used and painted on the displacement maps directly. (As opposed to sculpt in ZBrush and save out maps). After the seminar I have discovered programs like nDo, dDo and StitchWitch that fits in and enhance this way of working. The shaders in C4D which I used so much before is a thing of the past.

As stated Photoshop might be the daddy but it's not the only way to achieve ones ends to a final product.  DAZ Studio has come a long way in the shader dept and there are times (except for skin) I really love using the shaders and I love being able to set the tiling to get various effects.  They really come in handy if your on a tight budget (and that add on texture pack is just not going to make into the runtime) but you have plenty of shaders to fill the gaps in your final designs.

The metalic shaders are invaluable to me for creating realistic metal's that reflect realistically! 

Anyway, each too their own....

Quote - What impressed me most was how Xurge used and painted on the displacement maps directly. (As opposed to sculpt in ZBrush and save out maps). After the seminar I have discovered programs like nDo, dDo and StitchWitch that fits in and enhance this way of working. The shaders in C4D which I used so much before is a thing of the past.

Sounds interesting...I'm always looking for new ways to approach creating the textures and shaders for 3D models. Did he start with the displacement maps and then add colour layers? I bought a book years back that did that and I always thought it made sense to get the displacement maps done first.

Quote - No- it is Photoshop that is papa.

Neither mix brick nor blending nodes is the correct way to do it IMO, except possible at the concept stage. Sergio Martinez(Xurge) showed at the seminar he held the 8 and 9th June how he organized everything with the help of one big Photoshop master file (well two actually). All orderly and distinct placed on seperate layers

Material areas, borders, bump, displacement, ornamental patters, even down to stiches, everything had its own layer and could be manipulated and changed with a click. (blend styles as well as displacement). That made blender and mix nodes look like a toy. And the finished maps could be used in any application, not only Daz and Poser. Its all about being organized.

This is how I have seen texture sets developed, but I've never seen one that uses this approach past the testing stage. The resulting file sizes are beyond what it would be in the interest of a marketplace to distribute as a product at a certain point. I often have face map PSDs over 1G -- per file -- with 2-3 and sometimes more of them in use before a product is complete, for example, to produce the necessary jpg/png/tiff files.

Waste 3G of an end user's hard drive with a single charset, and you'd better have a lot more to show for it than just the diffuse color head maps alone! I don't know any content marketplace that would be willing to drop the $$ on file transfer costs for their site that would be required for even low sales volume of a product of that description (even 3G, not just 3G in psds of head maps ;) ), and the cost would likely be considerably higher for the end user as well as a result.

Yea, those two approaches are used for two slightly different purposes, and can even be mixed together. You get to a certain point in photoshop and use blending nodes for additional variations. There is definitely some overlap in what those two methods are capable of.

When I make stuff, the way I decide which method to use... I always ask myelf what it is I am try to accomplish, then use what is likely to give me a good balance of quality and file economy (considering package size and program performance).... and in case of supporting both, Poser and DS I have to consider program differences.

Quote - Yea, those two approaches are used for two slightly different purposes, and can even be mixed together. You get to a certain point in photoshop and use blending nodes for additional variations. There is definitely some overlap in what those two methods are capable of.

When I make stuff, the way I decide which method to use... I always ask myelf what it is I am try to accomplish, then use what is likely to give me a good balance of quality and file economy (considering package size and program performance).... and in case of supporting both, Poser and DS I have to consider program differences.

Same...and I agree with Surreallity about file sizes. Plus not all programs read PSD files. I keep my master file which I then save a finished image in the format I need for the various maps.

Quote - > Quote - No- it is Photoshop that is papa.

Neither mix brick nor blending nodes is the correct way to do it IMO, except possible at the concept stage. Sergio Martinez(Xurge) showed at the seminar he held the 8 and 9th June how he organized everything with the help of one big Photoshop master file (well two actually). All orderly and distinct placed on seperate layers

Material areas, borders, bump, displacement, ornamental patters, even down to stiches, everything had its own layer and could be manipulated and changed with a click. (blend styles as well as displacement). That made blender and mix nodes look like a toy. And the finished maps could be used in any application, not only Daz and Poser. Its all about being organized.

This is how I have seen texture sets developed, but I've never seen one that uses this approach past the testing stage. The resulting file sizes are beyond what it would be in the interest of a marketplace to distribute as a product at a certain point. I often have face map PSDs over 1G -- per file -- with 2-3 and sometimes more of them in use before a product is complete, for example, to produce the necessary jpg/png/tiff files.

Waste 3G of an end user's hard drive with a single charset, and you'd better have a lot more to show for it than just the diffuse color head maps alone! I don't know any content marketplace that would be willing to drop the $$ on file transfer costs for their site that would be required for even low sales volume of a product of that description (even 3G, not just 3G in psds of head maps ;) ), and the cost would likely be considerably higher for the end user as well as a result.

I think in the end, for marketplace Xurge exports them as single images. Not sure if he uses jpgs or tiffs or what.
I do the same thing... to come up with a single diffuse map for clothes (like weathered leather etc) I could easily have 10-15 photoshop layes, and another 5-10 for corresponding bump map... the end user sees and gets one jpg for diffuse, one for Bump... and often something for specularity and displacement as needed...  and any transmaps 

pendraia,

He could not show everything in the short time of the seminar. Furthermore compared to Xurge and you I am just a beginner. But- I have found myself that it is better to start off with bump and displacement than the other way around, because if you add these things at the end (when everything is starting to look nice), you are too coward to do the bold things. Instead do it in the beginning, on a clean slate without being afraid of destroying it all.

Quote - Antonia has no split eyebrow polygons and the character I made for her (... or was making before I had a huge file loss) had an eyebrow-less face texture plus transmap-powered brows that could change colors, driven by Blender nodes (I imagine DS is capable of doing something similar? But I wouldn't know).

Having those extra polys is surely better, but by now I highly doubt they would. It would be just too much work to include it by now, they'd have to remake a lot of stuff.

DazStudio has a Blender node in Shadermixer:

It is called the Mix brick, you plug your “mask” into the alpha, and use the base & layer to add your effects to it.

For those that want to know.

 I understand Jan19! It is hard to forget.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - In a world of vastly different body shapes...who can really comment on what is "realism".....

 

I mean really!!!

 

 

Thanks. Now my retinas are scarred. But seriously, the disparity between his upper and lower body is really weird. I wonder if it's been photoshopped.

I just pray that nobody uses this as a model for a new morph for Dawn...

 

LMAO -- again.  :-)

That poor man.  Thank goodness, his face isn't showing.

He desperately needs a wifebeater though -- with the logo "I kicked anorexia's @$$."

Sorry, sorry -- I'm fixated on that picture. 

Bee-U-tiful Dawn render!!!  Thank you, Queen Mab!   

 

 

BadKittehCo, "the end user sees and gets one jpg for diffuse, one for Bump... and often something for specularity and displacement as needed...  and any transmaps"

Precisely so. The finished maps are saved out as jpg in 3072x3072 at 75%, except for displacement that is a tiff file.

Quote - pendraia,

He could not show everything in the short time of the seminar. Furthermore compared to Xurge and you I am just a beginner. But- I have found myself that it is better to start off with bump and displacement than the other way around, because if you add these things at the end (when everything is starting to look nice), you are too coward to do the bold things. Instead do it in the beginning, on a clean slate without being afraid of destroying it all.

Thanks for the compliment vintorix but I still think of myself as only a little above a beginner myself. Certainly not at the level of Surreallity or Connie. I know a bit about ShaderMixer but I certainly don't understand the math behind it. Occasionally I have those aha moments where things just click and the network with the Jacquard shader took a long time to create and I still fiddle with it. I keep meaning to release some of the shader networks I've done as freebies but I tend to think they are not quite there yet and put it off. I actually think that it is probably harder to create the displacement after the diffuse maps maybe someone like Rawn(who is a master of displacement could give us insight into whether he creates them first or further down the track...

Still sounds like it was a great seminar...pity I missed it.

cheers

Pen

Agreed with Connie and Pendraia; for product creation it's pretty much the way to go. Distribution? Not so much.

Distribution is a different animal, and for content creators, the psd approach is extremely limited, particularly when it comes to something like brows, where people tend to want a variety of options. If you're talking about 'to prepare the product', vintorix, it's one thing; if you mean what the end user is delivered, it's another entirely. As a content creator you must be prepared to deal with the difficulties and eventualities inherent to both.

Pre-compositing all potential options on something like 'multiple brow types' isn't feasible beyond 1-4 color/style choices really at the most, which is less than what many end users want out of a product that promises versatility in this regard. (I've done blender/shader-based brows, transmap brows on brow geometry, and composited images with brow variations personally in charsets over the years; I have specific experience with all of the above to know precisely what I'm talking about on this one. ;) )

If you have supporting maps for bump/displacement/etc., it adds further to the file requirements. That's where shader-based approaches, or brow geometry with transmaps or grown hairs for mixing up the possible color choices and face map styles become valuable assets. They can be used in place of otherwise almost entirely redundant maps that also bloat an end user's runtime.

Quote - BadKittehCo, "the end user sees and gets one jpg for diffuse, one for Bump... and often something for specularity and displacement as needed...  and any transmaps"

Precisely so. The finished maps are saved out as jpg in 3072x3072 at 75%, except for displacement that is a tiff file.

Yep yep, that sounds almost like the same thing I do (my resolution varies based on what is needed, and 'save for web' jpg at High seems to give me best compression vs. loss ratio. 

Displacements don't do well when they are not in a lossless format (like tiff), compression artifacts end up becoming additional random bumps and creases and other crap on the mesh. I do save the tiff as grayscale to save space.

A thread about the Shader mixer "Blender" node:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/15796/P15/#236552

pendraia, "maybe someone like Rawn(who is a master of displacement could give us insight into whether he creates them first or further down the track..."

Yes, that would be interesting to get a second opinion. In C4D, you can experiment with bump/displacement in real time with openGL. You can tile a pattern across UV maps and paint bumps directly on the surface. Great fun! Then bake out the result and start the Photoshop master file.

"Still sounds like it was a great seminar...pity I missed it."

The best 40 dollar I ever spent.

surreality, "Distribution is a different animal, and for content creators, the psd approach is extremely limited, particularly when it comes to something like brows, where people tend to want a variety of options."

I can understand that for things like brows and eye color/makeup Photoshop would be overkill. But then again, I am talking cloth never characters. It is not on my table.

But you should never take anything to the extreme. There are still some things that has to be done with shaders, like metall.

Quote - Yes, that would be interesting to get a second opinion. In C4D, you can experiment with bump/displacement in real time with openGL. You can tile a pattern across UV maps and paint bumps directly on the surface. Great fun! Then bake out the result and start the Photoshop master file.

I often thought it would be good to play with C4D but have never been able to afford it. Maybe one day ; )

Quote - > Quote - Afrodite-Ohki,

I think you are right on the nail there! Like Elvis Presley who was 1/16 Amerindian.

I was thinking of something a bit more than that.

This is what I have in mind:

 

Of course, after I make that clothing set. I'm itching to do some modelling!

I love that face! There are so many beautiful faces in this world that it's amazing. I now want a character with this one too. =)

Hi all, nice to see everyone getting on while I was asleep!!! LOL.

Not sure about unofficial pics about Dawn, normally it's the HIveWire3D team that post the offiicial ones.

It's the early hours in Utah, so there will be no news from teh team for a quite a few more hours.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - I actually think that it is probably harder to create the displacement after the diffuse maps maybe someone like Rawn(who is a master of displacement could give us insight into whether he creates them first or further down the track...

Still sounds like it was a great seminar...pity I missed it.

cheers

 Pen

Hah...I dont know about master...but lord knows I made my fair share of them.

I actually do about 90% of all my texture work in photoshop, then I bring it into other programs like bodypaint to touch up things like seams.

I find photoshop leaves me with cleaner, crisper maps than what comes out of programs that paint directly on the object. But thats just me, I have seen others get great results from different programs. I am just very old-school.

Displacment maps, diffuse maps and all my other maps are all individually made. When I make my maps I usually have many different effect layers in photoshop (20 to 30 at times), and I may use one effect on the to displace things on the displacment layer, which I may also bring over to the texture layer at a much lower percentage just to give an extra hint of colour/depth to the texture. I may also bring that in to the spec layer to adjust it slightly too.

Since all the maps have to play together I make them all at the same time, so I can see how they interact and that lets me decide on which map I should bump things up or tone them down till I get the final effect I am looking for.

Achieving realism in a render is vastly different than achieving realism in the real world. No matter how we set up our scene with lighting, and no matter what effect nodes we apply, in the end we will only end up with a poor simulation of reality. The node set-up tries to emulate life, but it will always fall short. That is where a texture artist has to know what they are doing and build the texture maps accordingly to help overcome the shortcomings of this digital set-up.

So even the most photo-real texture sources will never simply give the same photoreal look renders. As texture artists we have to play with the medium and massage it in many different ways to try to give the appearance of something believably real.

Rawn

Quote - > Quote - I actually think that it is probably harder to create the displacement after the diffuse maps maybe someone like Rawn(who is a master of displacement could give us insight into whether he creates them first or further down the track...

Still sounds like it was a great seminar...pity I missed it.

cheers

 Pen

 

Hah...I dont know about master...but lord knows I made my fair share of them.

I actually do about 90% of all my texture work in photoshop, then I bring it into other programs like bodypaint to touch up things like seams.

I find photoshop leaves me with cleaner, crisper maps than what comes out of programs that paint directly on the object. But thats just me, I have seen others get great results from different programs. I am just very old-school.

Displacment maps, diffuse maps and all my other maps are all individually made. When I make my maps I usually have many different effect layers in photoshop (20 to 30 at times), and I may use one effect on the to displace things on the displacment layer, which I may also bring over to the texture layer at a much lower percentage just to give an extra hint of colour/depth to the texture. I may also bring that in to the spec layer to adjust it slightly too.

Since all the layers have to play together I make them all at the same time, so I can see how they interact and that lets me decide on which map I should bump things up or tone them down till I get the final effect I am looking for.

Achieving realism in a render is vastly different than achieving realism in the real world. No matter how we set up our scene with lighting, and no matter what effect nodes we apply, in the end we will only end up with a poor simulation of reality. The node set-up tries to emulate life, but it will always fall short. That is where a texture artist has to know what they are doing and build the texture maps accordingly to help overcome the shortcomings of this digital set-up.

So even the most photo-real texture sources will never simply give the same photoreal look renders. As texture artists we have to play with the medium and massage it in many different ways to try to give the appearance of something believably real.

 

Rawn

thanks for the answer Rawn...lots to think about. I've got zbrush but haven't really used it much yet. I tend to use photoshop for textures because I feel very comfortable using it.

It's friday morning there now right??? Friday night here!!

Quote - It's friday morning there now right??? Friday night here!!

here also from memory they are about 18 hours behind...

I have a clock set on my system that is set to DAZ time, had it for years, we then used to have nice sales.

So, I have my normal time in the task bar along with the Utah time one.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

According to my Utah clock, it's around 6.12 am in Utah, so there is a while yet before we hear any news.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Well, it's gonna be awhile until they're up and moving about. LOL. Few hours yet. Ya might have to wait until Saturday morning Alia. LOL

Laurie