I was neither "bleating", noe was I attacking anyone. By stating that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" I was clearly implying that everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions. However, your use of the word "bleating" would imply that I am a sheep or other herd animal who is supporting this character for reasons that are as insipid as those who are bashing her...and I never accused you of bashing her, now, did I? I was not attacking "billythefish" for stating his opinion, I was stating that I suspected him of assuming a new identity to bash Dina. My posts are in no way ambiguous in that regard. And I am genuinely interested to see your efforst regarding the creation of a Dina figure. Genuinely. 12:54PM.

heh, perhaps i went overboard with bleating. it angers me when people arent given the right to voice their opinion without taking flak for it, however, so im not being my usual diplomatic self :)

Oh, sorry...guess we posted simultaneously. The challenge of creating a Dina from MWV in less than an hour wasn't mine, Gabriel, it was yours. ///think about that before you post another thread like this, bashing other models openly, then bash those that disagree. /// Please point out where I bashed or censored anyone.

/// it angers me when people arent given the right to voice their opinion without taking flak for it/// As it does me. ///and this 'scanned from a real person' mystifies me. just how exactly do you do that? please explain the process in detail. //// From the press release (first post, this thread: ///Dick Cavdek [President of Cyber F/X] and his 3D Scanning Service Bureau out in Glendale, California///. <--- This would be the facility to contact to get more info.

The People who say Dina's default face is ugly are correct. Dendras, surely you can concede on that point! Unless you find the likes of Bea Arthur or Other Transexuals to be attractive. Lots of people trumping up Supermodel Vicky. To be fair, SMV's got an Ugly, Man-like Default face too. So does Victoria (Not manly but clown-like) It's not what you get out of the box but the potential offered, IMO. -WTB

ok, "If these are "the pictures were sent to me by a friend"... Man, that's childish. It strikes me that you have an agenda by posting this in the manner you did. In addition, I see no other posts in any other forum by you, nor do I see artwork posted by you. The only reasonable conclusion is that you've gotten yourself a new identity and that you're the same person who's been bashing this character on other forums and at other sites because of a personal agenda with the creators of this mesh. " "I note the way "BillTheFishFishyBill" completely ignores previous comments about suspicions that he is someone with a chip on his shoulder, *well known to the Poser community*, who has taken on a new ID for the purposes of Dina/DSI bashing. I repeat: No posts in the gallery I repeat: No posts in any other forum I repeat: No freestuff uploads By ignoring these points you've confirmed them. " -Dendras ---------------------------------------------------------- happy? billythefishguy has a right to post his opinion, and he posted it clearly and even added images to clarify his points. wether he posts in the gallery, wether he just created the username, or his personal details are irrelevent. he stated his opinion and is entitled to it. you could have approached it with a 'to each his own' attitude, but rather you tried to discredit him by bringing irrelevant crap into it. and as for the high poly issue -- if you take a cube and increase its poly count tenfold, are you getting any more detail? no, it looks the same. dina has slightly more detail than a cube, but the poly count in her is rediculous - yet its advertised as one of the greatest selling points. why? its a total waste of resources - not because ALL high poly models are a waste of resources, but because this one lacks the detail to justify it. its like taking a hand painted texture thats simply gradients and solid shades, then blowing it up to 4000x4000 pixels and advertising it as 'ultra-high-res'. its a complete waste of resources for no benefit to the user. the image i included shows the difference between a moderate resolution yet highly detailed, anatomically correct model on the right, and an ultra-high-res yet alarmingly plain, non-anatomically correct overhyped model (on the left for the clueless).

Hi, I think the problem here is the first image, which IMO makes Dina look deformed. The breasts are too big, but then who's to say that the "real" Dina doesn't have implants? :) Mazak's images above are good, but I think that the shoulders look odd in the first image, which, aided by her short neck, makes her look like she's suffering from nervous tension, (something I know about as it happened to my mother...) as a consequence it makes her arms look too short. Is there a morph to relax her shoulders? I'm on record as stating that I think both Vicky and SMV are not exactly "supermodels" :) and I too have replaced the head of SMV, but as for her body, Jeez... to quote ZZTop, "She's got legs!" :P That said, I quite like the second of Mazak's two images, it manages to be both masculine and "Rubenesque" at the same time. Now if only Daz would let me buy the damn hair I'd be happy! :) I guess it all comes down to whether people want a "real" woman to populate thier fantasies or not, right? Good luck to you all in any event, anyone got any idea who, "Billy the Fish" is? The name comes from a British comic/magazine (the fish in question is a goalie (goalkeeper in a soccer team :) in a "Northern" town) the comic is called "Viz" published by John Brown publishing in the UK later jb

will - supermodel vicky's face isnt exactly 'ugly' out of the box, just limited. it takes minutes to apply vicky or vicky2 morphs to her, and all the vicky characters will work with her (like destiny). dendras - are you trying to convince me that the modeller hired dina, used this mysterious scanning hardware/software at this scanning bureau....spent untold amounts of money to have her scanned in? and she still turned out looking NOTHING like the real dina? please. i believe 'scanned in' in this case means that he loaded an image of her as a background in his modelling program and morphed the model to match, but id like to hear a clarification by the modeller, in his own words, and a description of how this mysterious scanning process works. the propaganda is unbelievable "Dina V. offers to users the kind of quality detail that can be found in such Hollywood movies as Final Fantasy" -- ummm...sure. im not even going to comment.

I'm not going to add to this thread by expressing my personal opinion about Dinas looks or the technical quality of the model. What I will say is that if you are going to make claims like "best model ever made", "like nothing youve ever seen before" and comparing it to the Final Fantasy models, be ready to be attacked and challenged. Also consumers have varied opinions of what "best" and "most advanced" mean. High polycounts and photo realistic textures are only part of the equation, memory use, easy usability, versatility, rendering time, customizing and support also play into a models quality. One thing the creators may want to checkout is there is a making of Final Fantasy book out now, and if you look at the meshes of the characters you'll see that they have even less mesh detail than Vicki or Dina. All the hype and attacks here remind me of the American Godzilla movie. The movie is viewed as a failure even though it didn't do that bad at the box office, but it didn't live up to the hype. The effects were higher quality the monster was more realistic, but it failed to capture the hearts of Godzilla fans. I don't own Dina so I'm not qualified to comment on her. I'm just expressing my opinion about the hype and the attacks on the model.

please, please do tell me what settings did you use to save these two jpgs? 5% with a heavy blur for one and 90-100% with no blur on the right? LOL, you are so funny :-) thanks for making my morning!

otaku -- thats what ive been trying to say. i have never in my life commented on someone's artwork negatively. it is, after all, art - and something that someone has put a lot of time, effort, emotion and thought into producing, and to try to take away their pride in their work by brutally criticising it is desecration of art. but when someone posts something like 'this is the best _____", criticises other people's work, and posts tons of BS propaganda, they are inviting criticism. its equivalent to a person walking down the street wearing a t-shirt that says 'im the hottest person in the world, everyone else is dogshit'. regardless of wether they are really as beautiful as they claim, they will take flak for the t-shirt from everyone. if instead of this pompous, arrogant superior approach, the dina marketer would have taken a neutral approach, and respected the works of other artists and the opinions of consumers then this thread wouldnt exist.

pam - im glad i made your morning, but youre dead wrong. the comparison is ONE jpeg image compressed at 50%. right click on the image and look at properties - youll see its one .jpg. next time try thinking before you post a moronic attack like that. the dina image looks like that because i had to enlarge it by about 30% to match the other, and the skin texture lacks detail so the compression affects it more. stop trying to draw attention to the 'blurriness' and away from the real point. if itll make you happy ill blur the hell out of the right side of the image. the fact is that im not comparing skin textures - im comparing models. the texture is irrelevant. look at the geometry on the right compared to the one on the left. dina diesnt even have a fully modelled hip area, the thigh crease hardly exists, and thats PLAINLY visible in the image. as for her abdomen? its a cylinder with a hole in it for her belly button. now theres nothing wrong with that, but to say that dina is a perfect 3d replication of a human, incredibly realistic and high-quality, is stretching the truth quite a bit.

As many of you know, I tend to buy just about everything. I have just about all the models available, except for one. And those of you that even remotely follow my work know which ones i have. If it works, and can be adjusted I'll use it.With that said, here's my thoughts. The models that are currently available, are IMHO worth having. Each has a quailty about then and each is able to do one thing the others cannot. Each also has things that don't work so well or look all that great. And that's fine, it makes me learn more about poser, wavefront objects, 3ds files. Granted, I have only posted one image of Dina, or in my case (Erin) but that is because i do my best to get a particular model to look non-stock, that way I can say i did more than arrange flowers. but that's the challenge. Anyone can run poser and anyone can use the models as they arrive. That's why there are MT to change that, and thanks to TRAVLER for making the secrects of making them less formitable. IMHO what makes a great model is the level of support, from the vendor, to other users. The more people that try to do something with a model, the better chance for more and continued improvement. That's why there is EVE, PWFG. And as I see it, DAZ gives great support,Dcort gives great support,Jim Burton gives great support. Then there is all the users who experiment and tweak, and then share what they did. So, my point ultimatley is this. If you are a poser/bryce/LW/MAX that like to tinker and tweak and work and making a model look as good looking as you me her to be. Then Dina is a model you should seriously consider getting. for she is a sturdy model with as much potential as all the other model available. But if you are the user that will not attempt to alter a character, and expect perfection right out of the zip file or exe, thne wait for the big boss up above to get into digital rendering applications, for as far as i know only the great maker can do perfection.

Blackhearted using words like "pompous, arrogant superior" isn't a neutral approach either. Whether intentional or not, it sounds like a personal attack,it causes the person to put up there defenses and often leads to an attack back. Keeping comments to a respectful constructive critisism go a lot further and shows respect to the other artists.

Yes I think Dina has a problem with the shoulder in her default pose. I turn downward her shoulder and its look better. Mazak

sorry Blackhearted, if you thought my comment was an attack, I assure it it was not meant that way, I just find it very funny (ok, maybe I need more coffee), that you are comparing a very lossy jpg to a sharp one in order to make a point. In glancing up the thread, it looks like you copied a pic from another artist, cropped and blew it up, then set it beside another picture that is in sharp focus. Believe me or not, as you will, but Dina was scanned from a real person, and is anatomically correct. Very much so. :-) I am not going to get drawn into an argument, but do allow me a chuckle or two :-) Have a good one! pam

yeah, i guess it is. like i said, things like this upset me, and i may not be my usual easygoing, diplomatic self. if an admin is reading this, perhaps this should be moved to the C&D forum. this thread has the potential for seriously hurting sales of dina, so lets not let it spread further. if moved to C&D then those currently involved can continue discussing it without people just reading the poser forums becoming influenced. i have nothing against the makers of dina, my response is simply an instinctive counter to the rediculous claims made. im trying to be as unbiased as possible, but so far not a single image (post-worked or not) made with dina has impressed me at all. the problem with hype is that when its overdone, and the product inevitably fails to live up to it, then it hurts its image terribly. lets move this to C&D - i know that many people rely on the marketplace here as their livelihood, and i have no desire to fuck with that.

Blackhearted using words like "pompous, arrogant superior" isn't a neutral approach either. Whether intentional or not, it sounds like a personal attack,it causes the person to put up there defenses and often leads to an attack back. Keeping comments to a respectful constructive critisism go a lot further and shows respect to the other artists.

Blackhearted: It's not my intention to convince you of anything: You are free to contact CyberFX or not, and staying in this thread and arguing with me about how this model was made is absoluetly pointless. I'll repeat this just one more time, since the message seems to be eascaping your notice: I was not attacking BillytheFish for his opinions. I was accusing him as posting under an assumed ID, just as I said above. ///has a right to post his opinion/// By his own words his posts are NOT his opinion: (post 13: ///he pictures were sent to me by a friend, who bought it after reading how "great" it was./// Yet entitling a post "A warning to others" is NOT stating an opinion, it IS product bashing. If I had titled a post regarding a product sold at this site with the same heading I have absolutely no doubt that I'd be banned. -You've challenged the scanning issue; I've provided you with the info (that was already posted). -You've accused the modeller and DSI of lying regarding the techniques used to create Dina, and yet make no effort to get to the facts on your own. -You've accused me of censorship, yet fail to point out where I've censored anyone. -You've stated that you could create a Victoria-based Dina character in less than an hour, then declined to substatiate that claim, stating that you did not have the time, and yet have spent more than an hour participating in this thread. -You've accused Mazak of postwork which he/she has denied, and yet have not responded. -You've now accused me of trying "to discredit him [Billythefish] by bringing irrelevant crap into it." Please note that he's [Billythefish] discredited himself, and that had be been simply stating his opinion I would NOT have responded as I did. What I WILL say is this: Some of the attacks here, and I re-iterate my position regarding "Billythefish", are in all probabilty based on past animosities between individuals and issues which have nothing -- and I mean NOTHING -- to do with this model's attributes. Thus, assuming a new identity to product bash based on this IS completely hypocritical, hence my accusations. Note, however, that you attacked me for stating MY opinon. I have no stake in Dina, no invlovement with the development of the product save for being one of the original beta-testers, and derive no share of income from sales. Nonew. And yet you, like so many others, have chosen to lump me in with whatever issues you may have with DSI. Those who proffer their opinions based on fact and observation of the model are welcome to do so, because it is only through criticism that one's work is improved and that one's efforts are increased. However, accusing others of the behavior you yourself engage in serves no purpose but to piss people off. Otaku, in his/her (again, apologies, I don't now) is completely correct by stating "Keeping comments to a respectful constructive critisism go a lot further and shows respect to the other artists. " Well said, indeed. It is currently my impression that you intend on re-orienting this thread into an argument based on personal attack. Had you participated in this thread in an apparently less hostile and antagonistic manner something might actually have been debated constructively. IIt appears that you are becoming increasingly agitated, and that was not my intent either. I'm sorry that others expressing opinions which oppose yours and expressing fact-based observation upsets you to such an extrodinarily profound degree. I, myself, am now exceedingly pissed off (as being attacked is apt to make me feel) , and subsequently I am removing myself from this thread. I do not feel that fair debate is possible, given the current atmosphere. Try to enjoy the rest of day, and be well. --Dendras

sorry posted twice trying to do 2 things at once

pam - your assumption that i used someone else's image of dina, blew it up, and put it next to an image of my own is correct. but you're still avoiding the point of my post - which is lack of realism and detail. it doesnt look anatomically correct to me. but ill be happy to re-post a comparison of the same area if you would be so kind as to provide me with a larger image. and as for the 'scanning in of dina' issue - i STILL have yet to see some proof or description of this process. perhaps i should email the real dina and ask her myself :) mazak - your image showing the fix for dina's shoulder is also undoubtedly meant to show the difference between high and moderate resolution models. however, when a texture is applied that difference becomes even more minimal. what doesnt become minimal, however, is the fact that dina is unrealistic and highly stylized. look at her collarbone, and her neck area, and compare them to vicky's (which i assume is on the right). vicky's are far more realistic. dina's breasts are also unnaturally shaped, and i doubt that she posesses the almost infinite morph possibilities that vicky's breasts do. THATS the point ive been trying to make - that high-resolution is insignificant when the model lacks the detail to justify it. dendras - way to try and deflect attention from the facts at hand by trying to discredit me, just like you did with billythefish. i have no stake whatsoever in dina or the people in this community - i am simply posting responses to the claims made that dina is such a perfect model, so much better than any other. i have not proved that dina was 'scanned in' like it is claimed, however nor have i seen proof that she is. the 'proof' of my arguments rests on the images. dina bears little or no resemblance to the real dina, not in the face nor in the body - other than the fact that they both have large breasts. dina is high-poly, yet even eve.v4, with a fraction of the poly count and resource demands, has more detail. and eve is free. i have supported my arguments with images, now i ask that you support yours as well, and refrain from attemting to defame or discredit me by making personal accusations or hypothesis about my intent here.

Oops did it agian. Any way while I'm here I will make one more comment. I was watching the BBC special called the Human Face and a comment stuck with me about how people interact. If you bump into someone in the street you appologize and the other people sees your face and is able to see if your sincer or not. Usually you both go about your business. Now lets take to the road and someone cuts you off, you can't see there face and and there is a higher anger level. Hence all the road rage we've either encountered or read about. With the internet there is no visual contact at all and flaming is a common occurance. When communicating in this medium be very aware of the words you are expressing and how they could be taken. Without the ability to see a cracked smile or downward glance to help communicate the meaning the words can and are often taken the wrong way. I find it very hard to communicate effectively via email or voice mail, and try to talk to a person face to face whenever possible.

Vicky, I remember, was also stated to be modeled from a real woman. SMV surely wasn't, 99% of "real" women aren't built like that, I worked from "ideal" proportions, and actual supermodel measurements, then fudged in another 5% or so because as everybody knows, the camera makes you look fatter than you really are. Of course, if I could have afforded Gisele Bundchen, and the equipment, I would have used her! Gisele's face does have a passing resemblence to SMV, I think, I wonder why? ;-}

Attached Link: http://www.thegrc.com

Reposted from the Big-I site to keep me from retyping everything... ------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Everyone!! Okay, someone asked what are the advantages to Dina over Victoria, so here is my answer... 1.) Yes, polygon count plays a major roll in it. Because of this, her mesh doesn't explode in areas like the knees and elbows, thus requiring less touch up than other standard figures. With the count in her head alone, you can create facial morphs based on facial muscles with more realism than with Vicky. Not just the Orbicularis Oculi, Procerus, Nasalis or the Orbicularis Oris muscles that Vicky's morphs focus on, but with Dina you can focus on creating added morphs for the frontal part of the epicranius muscle, the Masseter and Mandibula muscles and more... enabling tighter muscular ribbons that fan from the jaw to the shoulders and creating wrinkles below the jaw which would obscure the Sternomastiod muscles... so yes, these polygons are needed for better range of morphing, not just for character creation, but for actual facial and body musculature. Such morphs are not included, since including them would be useless to some and would drive up the cost of Dina. 2.) More realistic in natural appearance. Granted she isn't what I, personally, would've chosen, since my defination of "beautiful" may be different that what someone else may consider beautiful. However, we worked with the model that was chosen and have done a very decent job in keeping that model's true likeness (image of the real model is included with this post so that you can compare). Yes, she is busty (I like small breasts), but if you look at her mesh and compare it to Vicky's you will notice that Vicky's is too cylindrical (sort of like tupperware bowls strapped to the chest) and there is always that line under Vicky's breast that can only be corrected in post work, no amount of morphs can change that. Also, Dina's breasts have a more natural curve to them than Vicky, so it is easier to scale them down or, god forbid, up and still keep the natural curve of her pectoralis and serratus muscles. 3.) Genitals. Gives a more realistic look to a nude figure when she doesn't look like she has "Barbie's" hips.... or "Ken's" for that matter. Despite how prudish some people can be about "Poser Porn", doesn't negate the fact that there are many people out there that would like to see realistic genitals with their characters that isn't an added morph or geometry piece that needs different mapping. If there wasn't a need for it, Eve and Millie wouldn't do as well as they do. ) 4.) JCM's and realistic range of motion limits . For example, try turning your wrist... what, it didn't turn, but your forearm did? Imagine that...!! Guess posing is a little more realistic this way then ) 5.) Texture and multiple transmap areas... better depth to your renders. 6.) Value and price. $30 includes both Hi-Rez figure (mostly used for nudes) and Low-Res figure w/hi-rez head (for clothing shots), a hi-rez photo realistic texture map and MAT Poses. Considerably less than Vicky... which can cost upwards of $84.95!! Which means that those who can only afford Poser as a Hobby will be able to purchase Dina and be able to create a more professional model character (like in Final Fantasy) at a cheaper cost. Granted, there are many out there that are DAZ loyalists and see Dina as a threat to their Poser Community views. I understand that, I myself am very loyal to DAZ and Dan Farr and I are very good friends, even though I have a competitive product. However, don't let that loyality get in the way of trying something different, or find a reason to "Bash" the value of Dina simply because it was produced by DSI. Yes, DSI feels that Dina is MORE ADVANCED than DAZ's Victoria. She, like Victoria may suit some of everyone's needs and may not for some. Some might even come to agree with us, some may not... but at $30 rather than $85, it is far cheaper to make up your own mind about whether or not she is. Thank you, Jack

I figured she would be able to be morphed for better results. I was commenting on the remark (fishy's remark btw)made about the sizing only for a bigger chest. As for the ongoing debate of what model is better, I can't really comment on Dina as I do not have her (I might at a later date though) But what really attracted me to Vicky and what conviced me to buy was the sheer number of morphs. I think that would be a better marketing ploy, not the high poly count, but rather show off her versatility. My last remark will be on the prices listed in the first post, they added the price of vicky 2 into the mix but vicky 2 is really an expansion pack for vicky 1. Vicky 2 also includes a additional model, the P4 vicky. I do applaud the inclussion of a starter texture for Dina though, they got Daz beat on that. No one should consider any of my comments as a "flame", I try to be as impartial as possible, and should be viewed as constructive as I intend them to be.

Yes, to answer someone's question, Dina has breast implants. Unfortunately, Dina wouldn't have been my first choice... but we took what we could get from CyberFX as a test to see the viability of continuing... we are pleased with the results and will be doing more in the future. As for SMV, Mr. Burton, I have her. I like her. But to have her cost's a lot more than the 30 bucks that we are asking for Dina... the actual cost to owning SMV is around $144.95 and that is with Vicky 1, the very first texture for Vicky and then your product... No offense, like I said I have Super Model Vicky myself and enjoy her, but you are expecting allot of people to have that kind of money to purchase her. Despite DSI's claims of "most advanced figure", which we firmly believe she is, I think the price makes it possible for people to make up their own minds on whether or not she is. Jack

Shadowcat, that was a very constructive post, thank you! Just so you know we will be having more morphs released for Dina in the future our first goal was to finish and release her, we included the base morphs with her, but additional morphs will be made :o) Jack

I will look into the Vue problem for you and see if I can't figure that out for ya :o) Jack

1. whats the point of creating complex morphs for facial muscles when the rest of the model is completely unrealistic - and i dont mean appearance, but in detail and anatomy. where is the detail on her neck? on her abdomen? on her legs? all i see are cylinders. maybe im missing something? 2) vicky can be morphed to almost infinite possibilities. i have yet to see an image of dina that doesnt have the same body style. and perhaps this is personal opinion, but vicky's breasts are FAR more realistic, and can be morphed to different shapes, positions and nipple styles. 3) genitals. how can you justify putting genitals on a model (besides increasing sales) when the hip and pubic area is so basic? barbie is more anatomically correct. 4) JCMs - this actually intrigues me, and would probably be the reason i purchased the model, if i did. 5) no comment. 6) great - its about time products were more reasonably priced. however, when you buy vicky you get an amazing level of support - both from the wide variety of addons and packages from daz and from the vast range of artists producing marketplace and free items here and at other poser sites. i hope that you can provide even a fraction of that support - though experience with other models like solondra and natalia proves otherwise. im not a daz loyalist. i will buy whatever offers quality and versatility at the appropriate price, wether it is modelled by zygote or billy-bob in arkansas on a 486, it makes no difference to me. and youve posted the pic of the real dina, which is widely available at her website, however everyone seems to circumvent this mysterious 'scanning in' process. please explain how exactly you went about doing that. and im sorry, but besides the large breasts and i dont see more than a passing resemblance.

Jack, Condemned, now I must delete all Dina pictures with blond hair g Dinas breast are nice, but that is my opinion. Mazak

jack, your price calculations are way off. $144.95? supermodel vicky and vicky 1.0 would cost less than $99 together. and for that you get 2 great figures, clothing and props, and the texture that comes with SMV as well as characters and textures downloadable at jim's website. as for these comparisons of vicky2 costing $114 as well (first post), who the hell did that math? vicky2 is 59.95 and that comes with p4vicky as well as hundreds of morphs. add the texture to that and its another 19.95, bringing it to 79.99. and both of these are also backed by daz3d's and other poser communities' industrious output of clothing, textures, morphs and characters, a large number of them being free. and that 'line under vicky's breast' you mentioned is easily corrected by her 'smooth crease' morph (not sure thats exactly what its called - working from memory). she has dozens of morphs not just for customising her face and figure, but also for correcting the notorious joint deformations that people are mentioning here.

Mazak, Just downloaded your poses... thank you! Nice job on those. --Dendras

Blackhearted, I did the math based on what I paid total. I got vicky when she first came out, bought the texture map when vicky first came out and then bought SMV when she came out... $144.95 As for products from the Community for Vicky, she's been out for a little over a year and if anyone remembers correctly, there was a very slow ramp up period before the Community even started releasing products for her, either in free stuff or the online stores. Equating that against Dina is a little unfair since it took a little bit of time to get those "extras" from the Community area. Jack

Jack, I have to disagree about the wrist movement. If you twist the forearm, all of the action occurs at the elbow and the forearm itself rotates like a pipe. If the twist occurs at the wrist and the end point of the twist is pulled back to the elbow, the rotation occurs over the forearm with the max at the wrist and decreasing as it approaches the elbow. Doing it at the elbow makes the joint act like a ball and socket joint. This also holds for the foot. The only rotation for the forearm and the shin should be a bend.

One other thing. If you have gotten JCM to work correctly at the elbow and knee, you have my congratulations. With Millie, I did not want any adjustment for the first 90-120 degrees of bend and then have the repair come in fast to the max bend. I could not find a way to keep the morph from starting with the first degree of bend. So, I bailed. DAZ then came out with a morph which must be set by hand, they could not get it to work as a JCM either.

Crap forgot to answer you in the scanning part, sorry about that Blackhearted. There are two seperate scans used to create Dina, first there is the full body scanner. In this case, the model first stood nude inside of the scanner which scans a cylindrical volume 2 meters high with a diameter of 1.2 meters. The scanner does scans of the model in a little over 17 seconds and can scan in color, however the output of the color texturing doesn't provide a neutral light texture map and usually ends up placing shadows on parts of the body... such as under the breasts, eye orbits... etc. Also it textures the full scan, which still needs to be cut up to use in poser and assign property names to it. Therefore a different texture map needs to be made once the .obj is cut up and reUVMapped. Then you have the model sit in the Head and Face scanner. This scanner is much better for the face and head, because you can get a crisper scan that in the Body scanner (which doesn't do a good job scanning hands, feet and heads). Like the body scanner, the head and face scanner shines a low intensity laser around the surface of the object, or in this case, the model's face and head. And since the scanner has 360 degree servo-driven capabilty, the model need only sit still for the process. After the scans are fed into either a SGI or NT computer, you can preview the output of the mesh and then decide on the output format that you desire to use. In this case, we choose .OBJ for obvious reasons. Then you take both the body .OBJ and the head .OBJ scale it, then weld it... a complete scan of a normal person can take around one hour for best results. The rest of the process is the same as normal, however, we've managed to shave off allot of sculpting time by creating a scan of a person. Also, the fact that you can get a realism of a real person in your model. Dina's porportions are her real porportions, her breasts and body structure is exactly the way that you see them in real life. That is the way God (if there is such a being) designed her... not DSI... don't like her shape, blame him :o) There are allot of ideas that we are going to be attempting in the near future, some of them some people aren't going to like because it will mean a change to what they've normally viewed as normal for the Community. One of them being not neccessarily creating a character that can be morphed to look like a thousand different people, though as morphs are released her looks and body structure can indeed change dramatically to suit your tastes, but a model that people that don't want to spend a few hours with morphs to make a base model look real can use fairly easily and quickly at an affordable cost to them, while also providing a denser mesh for those that wish to utilize her to a potential that Hollywood does with their models. Jack

Jaager, you are right about the forearm and elbow, that is what I tried to say, but am not much when it comes to that area :o) I know Dina's JPs and JCM's was the hardest part of finishing her as a model. Dan (DaCort) would be better at explaining how he got it to work :o) Jack

ok. i see your point, and maybe i overreacted. if it catches on, maybe itll shift the balance from a do-it-all model like vicky2 to a market for complete characters modelled from humans. as for my gripes on the body and face, as you stated theyre from dina herself and she isnt exactly everyones definition of sex appeal :) it has the potential to be a good product if you guys are willing to support it with clothing, morphs and textures, and i admit that my reaction was mainly to the arrogance of DTHUREGRIFs post insinuating that this is the greatest model of all time. i hope it does well, and i hope that my opinions and those of others in here neither discourage nor encourage readers to buy dina - everyone should evaluate the product for themselves, based upon the info available from the creator and the images posted in the galleries, and come to their own decisions as to wether the product will meet their expectations, needs and budget. cheers, gabriel

Jaager, to answer your question about the JCM, there are actually several JCM morphs on the knees and elbows, all applied at different rates. I know exactly what you mean about not getting a single JCM morph to work. It would be so nice if Poser could do exponential rates instead of linear for JCM. Using 2 or 3 JCM morphs in combination proved to be the best solution.

I should also maybe add that all of Dina's body-shaping morphs, including the JCMs, were done in such a way as to be reproduceable. By that I mean that I have written down very specifically each operation that was done to create each morph. I plan to compile this data into a spec sheet which would be of interest to anyone who wants to develop clothing for Dina, so that clothing developers can include the standard body morphs and JCM.

Blackhearted - When you say that High Poly is bad and in this case because it provides no additonal detail, you are missing the point. The additional polygons allow for futher detail to be added via morphs as yet uncrafted. That is the glory of high poly count. I might suggest that any computer this model would choke on needs, very seriously, to be upgraded to the times. -WTB

i dont believe there are many computers that a single model would 'choke'. but try 2-3 high poly models, with clothing, textures, props, hair, transmaps, bumpmaps, lights, backgrounds and youve got a serious problem on even high end machines. anyways, i thought we were done with these circular arguments?

well, hem, considering all this (gosh!) Am i right to say that DINA is like a "young" bottle of bordeaux, she may become better when she will be older and when people will make as much stuff as vicky or posette have(remind me the beginning of vicky) ? first look ugly (i am sorry, but it is), but will she change as you promised ? it seems to me that she was built for advanced users (professionnal animations ?), because of the high resolution and the so precise morphs and joints she allows. i am a hobby user (hem...) and i wonder if i am qualified to use it... Vicky and posette have her defaults, obviously, but it is easy to have personnaly-satisfying results when you use them, because of the huge range of morphs, clothes, text, etc... no need of precision or polygons, when you are not building morphs or realistic clothes or so ! The advanced jp are valuable when you want realistic poses, but it is the same, is so much precision necessary for beginners or low-skilled hobbyists like your humble servitor (average translation from french !) ? My conclusion is that i will wait and see, maybe dina is a bet on the future, maybe every day users can take the best of her, but i think that now you need to be experienced to use DINA and that i will continue to have fun with Vick 1,2 SMMV and P4 female for the moment. this is not argumentation in the debate, just opinion

Jaager, I think what Jack was trying to illustrate with the realistic limits comment, was that the limits set for most Poser characters are totally unrealistic. That leads the user who is not aware of anatomy into all kinds of odd poses. For instance, in regard to the wrist, Poser lets you twist the hand, which if you hold your forearm so it can't move and try to do, does not happen more than 1 or 2 degrees. You are right about the forearm not twisting equally along its length and Dina's parameters are set up to mimic that as closely as possible. It's not the elbow that twists, but the forearm itself. Also, the limits on most Poser figures allow you to move the forearms and shins side to side. That also does not occur naturally in the human body. It may happen a degree or so under external pressure, but cannot be done on its own (except possibly by contortionists whose ligaments are not the norm). It isn't possible (yet anyway) to get a mesh to totally acurately follow normal movements, but realistic limits go a long way toward making poses look more natural. Diane

Hi Cookie, DSI didn't hire Dina to be our model of choice, even though she is attractive, the company that DSI partnered with, Cyber F/X, choose and paid for her to model for this endeavor. The main reason for that is because DSI is located out here in rainy Michigan, whereas Cyber F/X is in California (which is the kingdom of breast implants LOL). Though Dina isn't exactly the model that we would've chosen, we feel that we did a fantastic job in keeping her likeness and making her a viable addition to the Community. Jack

Diane, We are probably saying the same thing about the twist of the wrist. But with Vic, it is necessary to use the hand Xrot to get the correct effect. It is just necessary to pull the end of the JP stick back to the elbow joint. Fortunately, now with the use of JNT pose files, I will never have to do it by hand again. Yes, the stock joint limits are ridiculous. There is even a twist allowed on finger joints. I have my own setup. And, as I have said before, I am now using JCJ for 4 joints. Being able to move the abdomen in one direction and the chest in the opposite, may work for a cat, but not humans. When I move the abdomen, the chest automatically duplicates the movement. The same for the neck-upneck-head. I find far too many poses with the thigh bent and the buttock at zero. And, as we see above, a shoulder bend up without the collar equalling it - looks like a RR crossing gate. If what you mean is that Dina is set up from the beginning more anatomically, what seems to be a fruitless educational effort is not even necessary. But I would expect that those used to posing stock P4 or Vic to be confused by what they cannot do with a more realistic model. You can get the same final pose, it just must be done a different way. I am not saying that this is not the correct way to set up the figure, but I am saying do not expect to be widely thanked for it; at least not at first.

Hrm... I wonder. If Dina had what most here consider a "pretty" and "feminine" form, would she be more readily accepted? If her facial features were more delicate, instead of perhaps hardened by one of her apparent lines of work perhaps, female wrestling/fighting? If she were a bit less muscular? Again, probably the product of wrestling/fighting. I can definately tell that the model is actually the woman shown in the photographs. The reason the real living breathing woman appears "pretty" is that she has had an excellent photographer work to catch her from just the right angle, has a glamourous pose and her hair is blowing in the wind in a very fetching way, has her makeup done just so, etc. But they are the same woman. So I guess what I am trying to determine is this. If there were beautiful characters made for Dina, such as characters of great beauty have been made for Vicki, such as SMV, Saluda, and others, would Dina then be considered to be a worthwhile purchase? From what I have been able to tell, without having the real model to work with at all, she whoops all over Vicki on realism of the joints, and ability to pose her without breakage there. Must be Dina's fighting spirit and those shoulders ;p The high polygon count, though it is somewhat wasted in certain areas, such as for instance perhaps the little toe (I mean how many little toe morphs does one ever see or need), and in the flat areas of the body such as the broad flat muscle areas of the calf perhaps, these places, they could have used a lower polygon count too. Ok, granted, she is high polygon, but you know, she is a morph artists dream girl come true. What could you not do with her in time, and with extreme skill and patience? :) There are those of us out here who have this level of skill and patience, you know.

Stepping back and looking at the "big pictue", congratulations to DSI on the new product line launch. While we are all indebted to good'ol DAZ for continuing to support and develop products for Poser through tough times, it's also great to now see another company enter the market. Hey, McDonalds does what they do very well, but I'm still glad there's also Wendy's. And while this is a bold step forward both commercially and technologically, I would suggest a little PR & Marketing assistance. Though it is easy to understand your pride & enthusiasm for your inital release, the way this was presented, IMHO, you really set yourself up for generating replies that primarily take issue with your claims. Anyway, I wish you guys much success.

It is unbelievable, my free Dina poses became 1118 downloads in 3 days. Mazak

Not trying to be rude, but that will partly be because people in freestuff don't come here, won't know who Dina is but will want the poses anyway. Some of those downloads will be people who are thinking of buying Dina and a few will be from people who have Dina. 1118 downloads is good, but don't think it's just because of Dina, I shouldn't think DSI have sold over a thousand copies of Dina yet. They will, I have no doubt of that, but not yet. :) Mehndi. Toe morphs? I like toe morphs. I would like to see more toe morphs. What's the point in creating a monster character from something like Vickie if the toes don't morph accordingly into claws, or whatever. Toe morphs are good, toe morphs help make things that can reflect life. For instance the one or two medical illustrators who frequent this forum might find that useful to display afflictions or deformities of the feet and toes. Very very useful I'd say. I like toes to be independant of each other. I hate the default Poser toe groups - dunno if Dina has that as well. Because there are occassions, especially for bare footed shots when the position of the toes and feet relevant to the scenery and pose are very important. Having them grouped as one lump is most annoying, at least for me it is. :)