Like others I believe figures and software are tools.  I use Poser 2014 because I prefer it to DS and I particularly like the Sub Surface Scattering and many aspects of the lighting.  As a Poser user it means Genesis is largely and non-starter for me. 

I did download Dawn but, at present, I don't use her.  The reason is quite simple, I have a tool that does what I want, V4WM, for me to use a new tool on a regular basis it has to do something the tools I already have can't do or be easier to use.  The fact that the tool I use at present is many years old has no impact. 

When I do wood working I use a plane I have used for more years than I care to remember.  When I work on my car I use a set of mechanics spanner I purchased over 25 years ago and the new sets look remarkably similar.  If they stop making spanners it won't affect me until I loose the ones I have or they break.

I would like to see software developers and vendors all make money but if they fail, will it really have an impact on me?  If I woke up tomorrow morning to find V4 is no longer supported what would I do?  Well for a start I could start looking at using the stuff I have purchased and never used, that should keep me busy for a couple of years at least.  After that, well all my content still works.

All of this means that I find all the talk of doom and demise of companies and figures to be rather un-important.

Having said all that, I will keep an eye on Dawn to see where she goes from here, very much in the same way I wander through my local tools store or surf the net looking for something better, better mind, not just new.

Quote - > Quote - I have to say one more thing. I've never been a big fan of one figure being able to morph into several others. That includes not only Genesis, but V4 as well. I didn't like it when V4 was able to morph into Stephanie 4, Aiko 4, The Girl 4, She Freak 4, and the V4 Male. Obviously she was the precursor for Genesis 1.

Not sure why the conversation keeps steering to genesis and DAZ, but if you look on Hivewire forums, Chris is also using Dawn's base to make a horse. Though I doubt you would get clothing to fit with the changed rigging, You probably do some interesting things with the morph between the two. I'm sure that's going to upset you too, but it's a bit more economical to reuse the mesh. I'm sure antonia, my michelle, and roxie could have benefitted if they all came from the same mesh and base rigging support-wise.

They keep getting mentioned because of the impact they've had on the Poserverse. Good or bad, they caused the current schizm. Dawn is an attempt by one company to bridge that gap. Whether she does or not and how well she's doing it is what this thread is all about. (I should know, I started it.)

And for the record, I've never argued whether Genesis was good or bad, although, admittedly in the past I have expressed a few choice words of discontent about DAZ.

No harm done. Although certain comments can get tempers flairing lol. Sometimes its hard to restrain ourselves because we are so passionate about the industry. We just need to find a common balance to communicate without things getting ugly. It's when things get personal that the threads start going to shit. If we try to keep it at an objective viewpoint, things should be fine.

To get back to the original question.

I will also only speak for myself, as that's the only one any of us truly can speak for.  

Yes.  Dawn is the white knight this Poser user was looking for.  She has completely replaced V4 in my runtime, and I no longer purchase V4 products.  For me, Dawn has been successful, and I have seen her release mend some of the bridges ... for those people who are interested in bridge mending.  

Neither Smith Micro nor DAZ 3D will be able to heal the breach between DS and Poser users.  The techology in both programs is too different, and it would not be healthy for either company to adopt the other's technology.  Hivewire is attempting what neither DAZ nor SM can, and for that they have my respect.

While, I'd liked to have had a Morphs ++ type package available when Dawn was released, it is not a deal breaker for me.  Nor do I believe the soon to be released Morphs and Expression packages need to be the holy grail or "revolutionary."  They simply need to be morph packs with enough bits and pieces to make it easy to customize or create our own visions of a character ... without having to learn to manipulate the mesh in Zbrush or other programs.  Although, that's really fun to do.

It's rather silly to declare Dawn a failure after three months.  By those standards, all figures released have been failures.  Though who knows, I wasn't around for the earlier Gen 1-Gen 3 figures, so maybe they were massive successes in their first three months with everyone quickly dropping their previous figure in favor of the "new and improved" figure.  However, the V4 being held up as the figure Dawn must kill to be considered a success is a 4.2 version.  Y'all remember there was a .0 and .1 before .2?

Now, since others insist on bringing Genesis into the question of Dawn's impact on the Poserverse ... 

Insisting a new figure must be a high tech, innovative mesh is ridiculous, when the Genesis mesh is not. Outside of DAZ Studio, the Genesis mesh is rather disappointing and difficult to work with. It's DS that's provides that technology, and the Genesis mesh takes advantage of that DS technology.  Just like the Dawn mesh takes advantage of the same technology.

It then comes down to subjective opinions as to which base mesh and the characters developed for that base mesh appeal most to you and fit your definition of beauty.  For some, that's V4, for others Genesis or Genesis 2, or some other figure ... including figures some consider to be the most hideous figures in the universe ... Smith Micro figures.  Yet, for some of us, that figure is Dawn.  Imagine a world where we could only drive SUVs.  How terribly restrictive that would be.  On a positive note, we wouldn't have to worry about having no choice in cars for all that long ...

Quote - I ask this here because both DAZ and Hivewire would be too biased one way or the other. It's been a little over three months since Dawn's arrival in the Poserverse and I'd like to know everyone's opinion of the impact she's had on the Poserverse?Has she succeeded in mending some fences or merely widened the gulf? Is she the white knight that Poser users were looking for, or has she just become another figure that's out there until the next one comes along?

I'm looking for honest critiques, not criticisms so let's keep personal attacks to ourselves. If someone says something you don't like, just ignore it and let the mods deal with it.

Now, this is why I far prefer to use Poser over DS and Dawn over Genesis.  It's an extremely painful process to use DS, and an even more painful process to attempt to use Genesis with DSON in Poser.  Talk about hoops!  and being limiting.  That really does describe both DS and Genesis to me.

Using Dawn in Poser is a pleasant experience for me.  Pre Dawn, I was content to use V4, but I never found it horrendously difficult to make the minor tweaks she required ... while others did.  However, I see no point in doing so now, since Dawn far exceeds my expectations.  But that too, is a subjective opinion.  

Clearly, not everyone find Dawn to their taste.  But ... not everyone likes chocolate either, and I rather find dark chocolate to be unpleasant compared to milk, and white to be not chocolate.  While others consider milk chocolate to be dull compared to dark, and totally swear by white chocolate.  But then, you also have to consider the brand of chocolate, because chocolate from one brand can be rather tasteless compared to another brand's.

It'd be rather pretentious of me to go around evangelizing my preference for chocolate when it's just so subjective ... 

Quote - To me, it does matter what oils and crayons (products) you use, especially the canvas. (figure or software) Did you enjoy making the art or was it a painful experience? Was the figure or app a pleasant experience or was it limiting? Was it a simple process or did I have to jump through hoops to get a specific result? These factors are just as important to the user as the final result. If I drive the car, its not just about me reaching my destination (render), its about the journey there (process). Did the car give me problems? Or was the ride a smooth and pleasant one? The journey there, as well as the final destination are all part of the experience.

Quote -  Neither Smith Micro nor DAZ 3D will be able to heal the breach between DS and Poser users.  The techology in both programs is too different, and it would not be healthy for either company to adopt the other's technology.  Hivewire is attempting what neither DAZ nor SM can, and for that they have my respect.

What are they attempting may I ask? Honestly, most of her content is Poser only, so where is the bridge? I still see a huge split. Only thing Dawn really did was get some vendors who develop Poser only content to try out DS and attempt a DS version and vice versa, but thats about it. If she did bridge the gap, content would work universally between both apps like V4's does (with the exception of shaders and specific mats being app specific). In that regard, Dson does a better job than having to buy seperate Daz and Poser versions of the same product at full price for each. What about those of us who use both applications? Do we now have to buy both versions if we want to use content in both? That to me is not bridging anything, but making me decide one way or the other. That is how I see it to be honest. I said to myself from day one that if Hivewire wanted to take this Unity stance thing seriously, they would have opened up a division that ensures content released there works for both applications. Granted they will have no control over content sold on other sites, but on theirs they could have set an example by at least making an attempt. That would attract more vendors to sell their who struggle with dual support content. That to me would be an attempt at bridging the gap. So do they get my respect? Maybe if they did something like that then yes, but right now I do not see them doing anything differently than what the other companies are.

I usually avoid posting in the DS vs Poser fight fests by almost any means possible but I just have to say that I wonder, if DAZ is triving so muchwith DS and the Genesis figures why do you feel the need to come into the POSER forum and try to convert people? Why not stay in the DAZ forums or the DS forum on this site and be happy, just let us old farts die out naturally... asuming that IS what's happening. That way we can all have useful conversations about our programs of choise without the constant inturruptions and annoyances?

Now, re: Dawn's impact... I don't think we've seen it yet. As this Old Fart remembers it took nearly a year before V4 actually caught up to V3 in content production. Dawn may NEVER replace V4, then again it is a natively rigged weightmapped figure with more than one or 2 people behind it. It may take a while and one or more upgrades (as V4 and even Genesis has had) but we may yet see it become a primary figure.

I have an item in testing now for her and while it took a while to get used to her rigging over V4's one I caught on it wasn;t bad at all to work with. On the other hand I TRIED to use DS, REALLY tried, but with the lack of solid information and docs I found it just wasn;t worth MY time. Of course that is a personal opinion, others milage may vary.

Quote - I usually avoid posting in the DS vs Poser fight fests by almost any means possible but I just have to say that I wonder, if DAZ is triving so muchwith DS and the Genesis figures why do you feel the need to come into the POSER forum and try to convert people? Why not stay in the DAZ forums or the DS forum on this site and be happy, just let us old farts die out naturally... asuming that IS what's happening. That way we can all have useful conversations about our programs of choise without the constant inturruptions and annoyances?

I thought the conversation was about Dawn which is used by both DS and Poser users... which why I asked why DAZ and genesis keeps getting brought up. I keep seeing both sides bringing it up with the added unnecessary "I don't like DS"/app wars stuff that's really causing the split.  If Dawn is really going to "heal the community", posts like this really have to stop.

Can't everyone stay on the subject of Dawn or is this going to dive into yet another fight to be locked?

While I get that you feel you should respond to comments made by people who you feel have a grudge against Genesis and/or DAZ, I remind you that it takes at least two people to have a fight. Might I suggest that you've made your point and simply let the subject not only drop but refrain from any responses in the future?

As for the rest of you, in deference to other's feelings on the subject:

1. As long as they aren't trolling, I'm sure the mods will agree that everyone's opinion is welcome, DS or Poser users.

and

1. Although i do think it is fair to bring up DAZ and Genesis in this thread, doing so just to trash them serves no purpose except to exacerbate the very rift we all wish to mend. Let's nip it in the bud!

Quote - I usually avoid posting in the DS vs Poser fight fests by almost any means possible but I just have to say that I wonder, if DAZ is triving so muchwith DS and the Genesis figures why do you feel the need to come into the POSER forum and try to convert people? Why not stay in the DAZ forums or the DS forum on this site and be happy, just let us old farts die out naturally... asuming that IS what's happening. That way we can all have useful conversations about our programs of choise without the constant inturruptions and annoyances?

I also happen to be a Poser user. I have been a Poser user longer than I have been a Daz user. I even have Dawn for both. And I still use both applications. I just decided to develop more for the one. So just because you use Daz as well you cannot comment here? Where is the "Unity"? Or is this a 'Use Poser only' members thread? I see Dawn didn't fix anything then:) And who is trying to convert anybody? I've been part of these forums for a long time and know that is not possible, people will use what they want. Doesn't stop me from discussing what is happening in the market around us, or would you preffer just not knowing? If so, then threads of this nature discussing a figures impact on the market place should not even be allowed, because it will bring up both companies, because Dawn is for both of their applications. And she is not the only figure out there, and to ignore the impacts of her and the others is just ignorance. That is like trying to understand a top secret document with half the information blanked out. And FYI, my last post had nothing to do with Daz Vs Poser, it was about Hivewire and their stance on what "bridging the gap" meant.

Quote - Male Me3dia,

While I get that you feel you should respond to comments made by people who you feel have a grudge against Genesis and/or DAZ, I remind you that it takes at least two people to have a fight. Might I suggest that you've made your point and simply let the subject not only drop but refrain from any responses in the future?

 

Huh? I'm thinking you're not reading my posts. What point did I make to drop? 

And was I fighting? No. But there more than one on both sides that were with the comments that really doesn't serve the purpose of what you created the thread.

So while you're way off base with this part of your post, I agree with dropping the Daz/genesis stuff because emotions are still raw by a few people and the posts it's creating doesn't really serve the purpose of Dawn.

Quote - To get back to the original question.

I will also only speak for myself, as that's the only one any of us truly can speak for.  

Yes.  Dawn is the white knight this Poser user was looking for.  She has completely replaced V4 in my runtime, and I no longer purchase V4 products.  For me, Dawn has been successful, and I have seen her release mend some of the bridges ... for those people who are interested in bridge mending.  

Neither Smith Micro nor DAZ 3D will be able to heal the breach between DS and Poser users.  The techology in both programs is too different, and it would not be healthy for either company to adopt the other's technology.  Hivewire is attempting what neither DAZ nor SM can, and for that they have my respect.

...

Now, this is why I far prefer to use Poser over DS and Dawn over Genesis.  It's an extremely painful process to use DS, and an even more painful process to attempt to use Genesis with DSON in Poser.  Talk about hoops!  and being limiting.  That really does describe both DS and Genesis to me.

I gotta be honest and say after reading this post, if Hivewire's goal was to heal the bridge between DS and Poser users, they've utterly failed.

I find it fascinating how that bridge is being tore down as fast as it's being built and people don't realize they've even done it.  

I applaud those vendors that take time to create Dawn products for both Poser and DS users, and this really does a disservice to the work Hivewire and those vendors do to make sure their products work the same for both applications. 

Quote - > Quote - Male Me3dia,

While I get that you feel you should respond to comments made by people who you feel have a grudge against Genesis and/or DAZ, I remind you that it takes at least two people to have a fight. Might I suggest that you've made your point and simply let the subject not only drop but refrain from any responses in the future?

 

Huh? I'm thinking you're not reading my posts. What point did I make to drop? 

The point where you want people to stop saying negative things about DAZ/Genesis. I get it.  Everytime someone does, you respond. Responses just fuel the disagreements. Just... let it go.

However, I still find discussion of both Genesis and DAZ to be germaine to main topic as Genesis is, arguably, the top figure out there, and V4 is still a major force, and both are made by DAZ,  so some discussion and comparison is bound to come up.

To go back to the original subject of this thread, which is:  "Dawn's Impact on the Poserverse"---

Impact?  Very little, really.  And who could have expected anything different?  Anybody remember "Dina"... "Renda"... or maybe "Antonia"...?

Dawn seems likely to have just as much "impact" as those figures did-- i.e., very little, if any.

As for Smith Micro-- Look at its home web site.  SM is primarily a software company, and Poser is most likely the smallest and least lucrative of the programs in its repertoire.  Why should SM care all that much about a dying program it bought third-hand, after the original creator (Curious Labs) failed to make a "go" of it?

Don't get me wrong:  I started in Poser, and Poser is still my favorite program-- but if SM doesn't put some serious effort into upgrading Poser and making it compatiable with DAZ Studio, Poser is at risk of going the way of the thousands of other programs that have fallen by the wayside over the last couple of decades.

Quote - > Quote - To get back to the original question.

I will also only speak for myself, as that's the only one any of us truly can speak for.  

Yes.  Dawn is the white knight this Poser user was looking for.  She has completely replaced V4 in my runtime, and I no longer purchase V4 products.  For me, Dawn has been successful, and I have seen her release mend some of the bridges ... for those people who are interested in bridge mending.  

Neither Smith Micro nor DAZ 3D will be able to heal the breach between DS and Poser users.  The techology in both programs is too different, and it would not be healthy for either company to adopt the other's technology.  Hivewire is attempting what neither DAZ nor SM can, and for that they have my respect.

...

Now, this is why I far prefer to use Poser over DS and Dawn over Genesis.  It's an extremely painful process to use DS, and an even more painful process to attempt to use Genesis with DSON in Poser.  Talk about hoops!  and being limiting.  That really does describe both DS and Genesis to me.

I gotta be honest and say after reading this post, if Hivewire's goal was to heal the bridge between DS and Poser users, they've utterly failed.

I find it fascinating how that bridge is being tore down as fast as it's being built and people don't realize they've even done it.  

I applaud those vendors that take time to create Dawn products for both Poser and DS users, and this really does a disservice to the work Hivewire and those vendors do to make sure their products work the same for both applications. 

I agree, except not everyone can or is able to use DS. I would think anyone making Poser only products for Dawn are doing so because they can't or don't know DS well enough to make clothes that work in the program. Dawn's only been out about three months and it may take a while for people to get up to speed to learn to make clothes for the new program. And if there are more Poser only items, it would also seem not enough DS vendors are making items for Dawn in the first place.

Quote -  

The point where you want people to stop saying negative things about DAZ/Genesis. I get it.  Everytime someone does, you respond. Responses just fuel the disagreements. Just... let it go.

I think you got that completely wrong. I want people to stay on topic without fighting. If the topic is about dawn's impact, I don't see how DS/Genesis is hard to use advances the conversation. That's just going off on an unnecessary tangent. 

Quote - I agree, except not everyone can or is able to use DS. I would think anyone making Poser only products for Dawn are doing so because they can't or don't know DS well enough to make clothes that work in the program. Dawn's only been out about three months and it may take a while for people to get up to speed to learn to make clothes for the new program. And if there are more Poser only items, it would also seem not enough DS vendors are making items for Dawn in the first place.

And on the same note, not everyone can or is able to use Poser. I bought Poser and learned how make material settings for my products. I tested and make sure my Gen4 products worked in Poser as well. I made a shorter M4 character (using ExP tech like Steph4, because there was no David 4) for one of my products and I spent several days testing it in Poser to make sure it worked as well as it did in DS.  

And on the Genesis products, when I found out the scaling wasn't working right, I went back and adjusted the rigging so it would work for those users that do use Genesis in Poser.  And I did that so both programs can use the products the same. So when you see posts from customers not grateful that everyone can use the same products, it really doesn't want you to make the effort to do it for both. And only people that make stuff for both can really understand what I'm saying.

Quote - > Quote -  

The point where you want people to stop saying negative things about DAZ/Genesis. I get it.  Everytime someone does, you respond. Responses just fuel the disagreements. Just... let it go.

I think you got that completely wrong. I want people to stay on topic without fighting. If the topic is about dawn's impact, I don't see how DS/Genesis is hard to use advances the conversation. That's just going off on an unnecessary tangent. 

Well, we disagree, but... I'm gonna let it go...

Quote - > Quote - I agree, except not everyone can or is able to use DS. I would think anyone making Poser only products for Dawn are doing so because they can't or don't know DS well enough to make clothes that work in the program. Dawn's only been out about three months and it may take a while for people to get up to speed to learn to make clothes for the new program. And if there are more Poser only items, it would also seem not enough DS vendors are making items for Dawn in the first place.

And on the same note, not everyone can or is able to use Poser. I bought Poser and learned how make material settings for my products. I tested and make sure my Gen4 products worked in Poser as well. I made a shorter M4 character (using ExP tech like Steph4, because there was no David 4) for one of my products and I spent several days testing it in Poser to make sure it worked as well as it did in DS.  

And on the Genesis products, when I found out the scaling wasn't working right, I went back and adjusted the rigging so it would work for those users that do use Genesis in Poser.  And I did that so both programs can use the products the same. So when you see posts from customers not grateful that everyone can use the same products, it really doesn't want you to make the effort to do it for both. And only people that make stuff for both can really understand what I'm saying.

Valid points, but as I said, it takes time to learn a program. I don't think any vendor should simply hold back their products, especially for a figure that's starving for products, until they've fully learned the program in question. That goes for DS users OR Poser users.

I remember when Optitex, for one, didn't or couldn't release products for mac users  of DS. They didn't hold back the products. They released them until they could make the product work on macs. And that's not the only DS plugin that wouldn't work on a mac. The current Mimic Live plugin doesn't work on a mac. I don't see DAZ holding it back until they can make it work on a mac, if they ever DO make it work.

My point is, I may not like a product being for one platform only, but if the vendor is working on trying to make a version  that works in the other program they should be given time. As has been pointed out... it's only been three months.

Quote - To go back to the original subject of this thread, which is:  "Dawn's Impact on the Poserverse"---

Impact?  Very little, really.  And who could have expected anything different?  Anybody remember "Dina"... "Renda"... or maybe "Antonia"...?

Dawn seems likely to have just as much "impact" as those figures did-- i.e., very little, if any.

As for Smith Micro-- Look at its home web site.  SM is primarily a software company, and Poser is most likely the smallest and least lucrative of the programs in its repertoire.  Why should SM care all that much about a dying program it bought third-hand, after the original creator (Curious Labs) failed to make a "go" of it?

Don't get me wrong:  I started in Poser, and Poser is still my favorite program-- but if SM doesn't put some serious effort into upgrading Poser and making it compatiable with DAZ Studio, Poser is at risk of going the way of the thousands of other programs that have fallen by the wayside over the last couple of decades.

It would probably help if DAZ wasn't giving away it's software for free and trying to undermine Poser. If DS is so superior, compete fairly, head to head. Let the market decide. The fact is that Genesis is irrevocably tied to Studio. Even to get it into Poser, you have to first own Studio.

And don't get me wrong, the fact the Hivewire3D put Dawn out there confirms that this isn't the DAZ that Poser built, so they don't owe Poser any loyalty and they're not showing any.

If Poser did go under, I'm willing to bet that Studio wouldn't be free for much longer afterwards.

So yeah, I do think that Poser users  and yeah, even Studio users stand to benefit if Dawn catches on.

It would probably help if DAZ wasn't giving away it's software for free and trying to undermine Poser. If DS is so superior, compete fairly, head to head. Let the market decide. The fact is that Genesis is irrevocably tied to Studio. Even to get it into Poser, you have to first own Studio.

Free app = more adopters = more potential customers. The Store is where Daz Generates its sales, that is their strategy. Giving the app away for free only increases the chances of that happening. Lots of mobile developers are doing the same on the market. Get the game for free, and only pay for unlocks and content. It is just a different strategy and isn't really about undermining anybody and the different level in tech is not really a factor so "superiority" doesn't even have to come into play at all.

As has been pointed out... it's only been three months.

Agreed it has only been three months, however there are some worrying signs. Rendo's store used to be the forefront of Dawn content releases. If you look at what has been released lately, her content has rapidly dropped compared to when she was first released. Same story at RDNA. Now, if a figure was doing well, that rate of content would not really change so rapidly. It would be more constant. If you look at the stores recent releases, V4 content has picked up again. It's very rare that once content for a new figure dips, that there is a resurface of releases. The dip is usually the tapering point, and usually does not increase after that unless there is an unknown factor that comes into play. I like to remain hopeful, but these signs cannot be ignored. We have seen it happen to all the other figures, and usually after that the outcome has always been the same. It's up to Hivewire to change the situation. Vendors can only do so much.

I didn'tbounce up and down, moaning about when will it appear every 5 minutes. I just waited and got it when it came out.

As I have said before, just wait and things do appear.

Those that want to use Dawn, do so, those that don't, do so.

Please don't say that everything coming out is just for Poser, go to other stores and you will see that quite a bit is just for Studio.. There is enough content now and in the future for those that want to work with Dawn can do so.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

This one isn't aimed at the content users, they will always have to wait on what the vendors do.

To all the vendors that have come into this thread and mentioned the lack of Dawn content, why don't you make something.

Easy enough to complain about something.

Easy enough for you to say your not supporting Dawn as there insn't enough content for her.

So, do something about it.

The base Dawn doesn't cost anything to get.

Her clothes arn't hard to rig.

So, what is stopping you from doing something?

The same thing also applies to freebie makers, and beforeanyone says anything, yes I have done some freebies for Dawn. Check the freebie section here and over at ShareCG.

At the moment I'm getting my experience up with ZBrush to make better content.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - To go back to the original subject of this thread, which is:  "Dawn's Impact on the Poserverse"---

Impact?  Very little, really.  And who could have expected anything different?  Anybody remember "Dina"... "Renda"... or maybe "Antonia"...?

Dawn seems likely to have just as much "impact" as those figures did-- i.e., very little, if any.

As for Smith Micro-- Look at its home web site.  SM is primarily a software company, and Poser is most likely the smallest and least lucrative of the programs in its repertoire.  Why should SM care all that much about a dying program it bought third-hand, after the original creator (Curious Labs) failed to make a "go" of it?

Don't get me wrong:  I started in Poser, and Poser is still my favorite program-- but if SM doesn't put some serious effort into upgrading Poser and making it compatiable with DAZ Studio, Poser is at risk of going the way of the thousands of other programs that have fallen by the wayside over the last couple of decades.

 

And yet another DAZ vendor arrives on the scene.

Quote - And yet another DAZ vendor arrives on the scene.

Why does being a DAZ vendor disqualify anyones comments?

Most of us DAZ vendors still make poser products and are poser users.
We keep a close eye on everything involved in this community and what products are available.

Why must you make the environment here inhospitable to DAZ vendors?

We are all part of this community.

Can we get this back on to the subject of Dawn please?

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

I just popped over to Hivewire's Forum and read where Hivewire is indeed coming out with an official set of morphs and visemes for Dawn. So that concern is being addressed. I think the best we can do for now is to wait and see how much they help Dawn become a better figure. V4 didn't become the most supported figure in just three months, and Dawn won't either.

I also seem to recall that DAZ's solution to addressing the same problem when V4 first came out, that being too little content, was to put V4's head on V3's body..

Agree with everything there!!!!!

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Dude! Seriously?

Poser won't play ball and become Studio Jr. So DAZ decides to give out Studio for free. How can they NOT think that it would undermine Poser?

Back on subject.......

I would say that Dawn is in a holding pattern for 2 reasons:

1.  The P9+ requirement.  As I have pointed out earlier, the Poser/DS user base is notoriously cheap.  I simply can't take seriously a customer saying that they can't scrape together $29.95 for a copy of P9, when it was on sale a month or so ago.  If they are too cheap for that, they are more than likely too cheap to actually buy content.  The same applies to the "I can't afford a new computer."  Please.  Poser will run on any computer made in the last decade.  If you can't afford this, then this hobby isn't for you.  Sorry, but that is how it is.

2.  Vendor skill sets or lack thereof.  Most character creators are "dial-spinners".  Most of the character creators simply do not have the skills or software to custom morph a figure.  As such, they are limited to the starter morphs.  The same applies to clothing creators.  A lot of vendors don't move beyond making skin tight clothing because they don't have the skills to do so.  It is what it is.

Things that aren't helping Dawn:

1.  Overpromising, underdelivering.  This should not surprise anyone - Kondris was just as bad at overpromising and underdelivering when he was running marketing at DAZ as he is at Hivewire3d.  It shouldn't surpise anyone that this kind of stupidity followed him.

2.  Vendor Reluctance.  A lot of vendors have made product for a niche figure in the past that went nowhere.  Because of this, they have made the decision not to make products for any figure that that hasn't already reached critical mass.  Since most of them have taken that approach, new figures never reach critical mass.  A chicken and egg problem that leads us to:

3.**  End user reluctance. ** End users don't see a lot of new product for a new figure due to issue 2, therefore they don't invest in a new figure, which continues the downward spiral. 

A corollary of this is the reluctance to embrace products that have been added to the Poser ecosystem.  There are a lot of "force multipliers" available for Poser, but few actually take advantage of them.  As an example, those of us who have invested in clothing conversion tools are less likely to purchase new clothing. 

Why should I spend $14.95 for a Dawn outfit when I can run it though WW or Xdresser or the Fitting Room, or a combination of both? 

I am well aware that there are people that aren't all that impressed with them, but quite frankly, I suspect that they haven't actually used them all that much.

Sturgeon's Law.  It applies to Poser/DS content creation just like it does everything else.

And 1 last thing......

Daz isn't giving away DS4A because they want to "undermine" Poser.  DAZ is first and formost a content brokerage.  They depend on content sales, not software sales (Which is a good thing considering their "expertise" in that area.  Can you tell that I have bought all of their software?)  The vendors apparently weren't willing to spend $130+ on the Content Creation Tools that didn't come with any documentation. 

From the release of DS4 to the start of March Madness (not quite 6 months), there were less than 300 items released for genesis - that is everything, including counting bundles as separate items. I took the time to track products as they were released.

Products for genesis didn't really start to hit the DS storefront until the "Free for a limited time" DS4P hit (and then DAZ had to refund a lot of money to people who had bought the product).  Which will end up being a long-term bleeding ulcer to DAZ's bottom line - they were expecting to make money off sales of DS4.  I don't see the user base paying for DS5 anymore than they were willing to pay for DS4

Quote - > Quote - And yet another DAZ vendor arrives on the scene.

 

Why does being a DAZ vendor disqualify anyones comments?

Most of us DAZ vendors still make poser products and are poser users.
We keep a close eye on everything involved in this community and what products are available.

Why must you make the environment here inhospitable to DAZ vendors?

We are all part of this community.

I think that the problem is not that you are or not daz  seller , really the problem is that in general always the same "daz sellers " (and I think we all know who they are) interrupt  interesting convesaciones with misleading comments for the sole purpose of promoting a daz , and I really pisses me off these interruptions as also bothers me interesting threads are closed thanks to these "bugs" rather than a moderator put in its place

ps.just my opinion

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - And yet another DAZ vendor arrives on the scene.

 

Why does being a DAZ vendor disqualify anyones comments?

Most of us DAZ vendors still make poser products and are poser users.
We keep a close eye on everything involved in this community and what products are available.

Why must you make the environment here inhospitable to DAZ vendors?

We are all part of this community.

 

I think that the problem is not that you are or not daz  seller , really the problem is that in general always the same "daz sellers " (and I think we all know who they are) interrupt  interesting convesaciones with misleading comments for the sole purpose of promoting a daz , and I really pisses me off these interruptions as also bothers me interesting threads are closed thanks to these "bugs" rather than a moderator put in its place

ps.just my opinion

However, I think if you look up one post from yours, I think someone has just blasted your theory out the water. ;)

Besides considering you responded to someone that actually made several Dawn products on Hivewire's site that work in Poser, this type of thinking really needs to be re-evaluated as his thoughts would carry more weight than someone that hasn't made anything.

Alyson2, Dawn, Genesis2, Sydney, and Victoira 4.
All meshes are give or take an fraction the same when scaled to the same shoulder height.

Yes, there are differences in the position of the legs.
And YES again, there are differences in "Z".

Why do vendors/builders not build more generic clothing, and let the end users adapt it to the figures of their choice in the apps they prefer to work in.

In another tread I started here at Rendero, it took me 7 minutes to put a Dawn clothing on a Poser4 Lo Res Figure.

That is putting some of the newest of the newest clothing, on close to the oldest of the oldest figures.
Ant it took 7 minutes to do so.

*It would even be faster if I had used the fitting room in PP2014, but I choose the Poser10 way to do it.

And everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, is better then me at doing this .*

" Why do vendors/builders not build more generic clothing, and let the end users adapt it to the figures of their choice in the apps they prefer to work in."

Most just want to apply the clothing and do their renders, not spend time bothering fitting and converting clothing (some enjoy doing that, most hate it) ,which should be as automated and as simple as possible in the first place. They wont buy something knowing that it wont really fit out of the box and requires some work from their side in order to work.

Quote - " Why do vendors/builders not build more generic clothing, and let the end users adapt it to the figures of their choice in the apps they prefer to work in."

Most just want to apply the clothing and do their renders, not spend time bothering fitting and converting clothing (some enjoy doing that, most hate it) ,which should be as automated and as simple as possible in the first place. They wont buy something knowing that it wont really fit out of the box and requires some work from their side in order to work.

What he said.

A while ago, I proposed a new "option" for clothing builders.
**
Now you have :**

• Conforming = build for, and rigged to a certain figure
• Dynamic = Let the end user use the Cloth room to get the results they want

**Add a new and third option: ** - Fitting room ready.
Deliver only the object file and the textures in the clothing pack. (Same content as for dynamic clothing)

**Alow the end user to: **
Poser10  : Use the morph brushes and the setup room to adapt it to their figure of choice (takes minutes)
PoserPro2014 : Use the fitting room to adapt it to their figure (takes less then a minute)

See how close the shapes actually are? If you know what you are doing, it goes pretty fast.

And poking?
Is only a morph brush stroke, and gone.

Quote -
See how close the shapes actually are? If you know what you are doing, it goes pretty fast.

Shapes is one thing, different figure rigging is another. What might work fine on one character might completely break on another because of rigging differences. Also remember not every user has a Poser version which contains the fitting room. What about them?

As for the new figures :  - Fitting room ready => Poser 10+

**Poser10 ** : Use the morph brushes and the setup room to adapt the clothing to their figure of choice.

PoserPro2014 : Use the fitting room to adapt it to their figure (takes less then a minute)

See:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2874612

Where I put the newest clothing on one of the oldest figures.

(Where I do not even rig) (Also a forgotten trick) !

Simple clothing like that does not need to be rigged to follow all bends, twists, and side-sides from all groups.

However, I think if you look up one post from yours, I think someone has just blasted your theory out the water. ;)

Besides considering you responded to someone that actually made several Dawn products on Hivewire's site that work in Poser, this type of thinking really needs to be re-evaluated as his thoughts would carry more weight than someone that hasn't made anything.

first:

Might be a more specific Male_M3dia?, I see nothing to pull my theory that There are lots of "daz trolls", to call in some way,  that the only thing interests him is break posts with hidden advertising, to the  water as you say...

If it were so . I would be the first to say, I learn more from my mistakes than from my successes

second:

Something can be said for the "King of the universe"  and that does not make it true, maybe you should read back what I wrote before asking me to reevaluate something,  because I feel that you answering... ¿silly things is the word?

ps.really, you follow different forum threads or just post the answer to be "politically correct"?

ps2:I do not speak English natively, no sentence has been written with the intention to offend anyone, if a word so it does, my apologies

I have Wardrobe Wizard and the Fitting Room, and use them.

But when I buy an outfit, it's because I want it to fit a figure without my having to fiddle with it.

At this point, I have just about all the clothing I need.  Some of it might have been made for V3 or David, but I can fit it Dawn or Miki 4. 

But I'm willing to pay for the convenience of not having to do that.  Time is money!

Plus, some things don't convert very well.  Shoes, clothing with lots of fancy details, etc.

The personal attacks stop now from all sides. If not, I'll start deleting entire pages of this thread.

No one needs to defend themselves.

LET IT ALL BE.

There will be no more warnings and those who persist WILL get written up for their activities. This is trolling on both sides of the aisle, and I'm not going to let it go on.

Get back on topic and leave the words "DAZ" and "Genesis" out of it. They have no place in a discussion of Dawn.

Actually, you can lock the thread as far as I'm concerned , 'wiz. I'm done.

Ye same here. All aspects have been covered basically.

As for option 3.. it does have some merit.. BUT  if I was a vendor I would not be comfortable attaching my name/ quality reputation to posers autorigging via the fitting room.  That being said... I would consider offering a complete package for one figure and adding a 'fitting room ready' version for user to play with if they chose... with a healthy disclaimer dis-avowing my self of any fitting room issues the end user might encounter!

Quote - A while ago, I proposed a new "option" for clothing builders.
**
Now you have :**

• Conforming = build for, and rigged to a certain figure
• Dynamic = Let the end user use the Cloth room to get the results they want

**Add a new and third option: ** - Fitting room ready.
Deliver only the object file and the textures in the clothing pack. (Same content as for dynamic clothing)

**Alow the end user to: **
Poser10  : Use the morph brushes and the setup room to adapt it to their figure of choice (takes minutes)
PoserPro2014 : Use the fitting room to adapt it to their figure (takes less then a minute)

See how close the shapes actually are? If you know what you are doing, it goes pretty fast.

And poking?
Is only a morph brush stroke, and gone.

Just woundering.
Did HiveWire3D them selfs ever say anything about Dawn was to end the DAZ Poser war ?

Can't you model 3 diffrent meshes .
Name all the groups the same on all 3 meshes and have the cloths fit all 3 meshes ?

Same for UV Maps .
Have all 3 meshes UV Mapped the same and wouldn't the texture work for all 3 meshes ?

No, don't lock the thread. Let people talk about "Dawn".

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - No, don't lock the thread. Let people talk about "Dawn".

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

That's my preferance as well, Eagle.

Quote - Just woundering.
Did HiveWire3D them selfs ever say anything about Dawn was to end the DAZ Poser war ?

This is what they originally said:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2868999&page=1

Ouch.... a lot was stated there which wasn't deliver at all, but I don't see them saying they're going to end any wars where ever they may rage, although you could imply it.

After reading that again (it's been a long time since I've read that) I can safely say that Dawn didn't deliver at all, she not even close to as promoted. If they really had cashed in on those promises, wow, that would have been amazing. But all we did get was Dawn, no new era at all and for me the sun has set on her already and I keep on wishing :-)