Dawn is the latest figure to catch the attenion of many Poser users and it looks like she's here to stay. What do you think are some of Dawn's best features and what would you do  to minimize any perceived faults?

Also, what's the next thing they could do to make Dawn even better? For example, I just found out that some vendors are starting to use Poser's animatable joint technology  to make Dawn a more versatile figure Like make her  Catgirl.

Earl? the Dawn hype is over . They killed it themselves.

She lasted 2 minutes longer then Genesis. Ha-ha-ha-
Sorry Dawn, but you went down.

To make her better?

• Use a 2014 mesh instead of a 2002 technology mesh.
  The structure of the mesh dates right between V3 and V4.
  That is 8 to 10 year old.

• Use a human skin texture instead of that oversaturated painting.

• And if some one else comes up with the next decoupled jaw? You know the way to the back door, right?

Oh, and Down?
You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Sleep well.
Sorry, you asked.

Animated Joints.

First they came out with bones in breasts to improve rigging.
Well, I asked all the females I know, but none has bones in her breasts. LOL.

Then I checked "my" joints, and I am a pretty normal human being. I could not find ANY animation, not to the level some are going anyway. A few mm at the most.

Wanna make monsters, dragons? => Use animated joints.

Only way they can make her better is by changing the entire mesh, because her topology is limiting.

Quote - First they came out with bones in breasts to improve rigging.
Well, I asked all the females I know, but none has bones in her breasts. LOL.

Really? Could you be any more a troll?

Hair in real life doesn't have any bones, but Poser's conforming hair does. You know full well what Poser's "bones" are and what they're for.

Until/Unless Poser gets softbody dynamics and/or jiggle physics, bones and morphs are the only methods available to make breasts into anything more than implant balloons.

I use her a bit.  I have found her biggest limitations to be:

1.  A lack of ethnic morphs.

2.  The same freakshow proportions as V4.

3.  Figures built for her are the same collection of generic early 20's Caucasians that populate the V4 universe.  It has gone from being annoying to down right creepy.  Logan's Run is not the foundation of my artwork (unlike a lot of folks around here).

I have actually found myself moving back to the SM figures.  For all of the issues with the mesh, at least I have a better selection of ethniciites, shapes & ages.  Since they keep their clothes on in my art, the mesh issues are irrelevant.

I’d prefer to see specific examples rather than sweeping generalisations, would be more useful …

In what way is Dawn’s topology limiting? In what way is the mesh structure ‘2002 technology’?

Not looking for an argument, I am interested in topology and trying to learn more about it. From what I can see Dawn works quite well in Poser, though I haven’t used any figures heavily for at least the last year. Room for improvement? No doubt, but then I’m fairly sure the same could be said for any figure.

For every person that renders with clothing on, there are way more users who do nudes or semi nude renders, where mesh details are important.

Quote - Until/Unless Poser gets softbody dynamics and/or jiggle physics, bones and morphs are the only methods available to make breasts into anything more than implant balloons.

SM had a webinar that showed how to make their toon figure Barnie have a jiggly beer gut.  Same technique applies.

Quote - For every person that renders with clothing on, there are way more users who do nudes or semi nude renders, where mesh details are important.

So what.  That doesn't negate my opinion - which was what was asked for btw.

This isn't a let's trash Dawn thread. Seriously, you people drive me nuts sometimes. On one hand I have to deal with the Dawn cheerleading section over at Hivewire who don't want you saying anything remotely negative, and then over here where you mention the name, and people attack like piranha.

I see why people have left the Renderosity Forums. Maybe I should join the rush.

Quote - I’d prefer to see specific examples rather than sweeping generalisations, would be more useful …

In what way is Dawn’s topology limiting? In what way is the mesh structure ‘2002 technology’?

Not looking for an argument, I am interested in topology and trying to learn more about it. From what I can see Dawn works quite well in Poser, though I haven’t used any figures heavily for at least the last year. Room for improvement? No doubt, but then I’m fairly sure the same could be said for any figure.

Her topology flow goes against realistic muscle definitions, therefore won't look very realistic, because it simply cannot produce accurate details without banging your head on a desk. Eg where I want to make a realistic muscle shape, I don't have the polygons to work with, or they are flowing in the wrong direction. Also you have to consider how the mesh reacts when bending and how those morphs look. It's why to this date V4/M4 is more versatile compared to Dawn because the mesh is way better flow wise.

Quote - > Quote - For every person that renders with clothing on, there are way more users who do nudes or semi nude renders, where mesh details are important.

So what.  That doesn't negate my opinion - which was what was asked for btw.

You saying the mesh is irrelavent. I'm mentioning why it is. I was also just stating my opinion. Don't get so sensitive:)

The critiqueing time has past, meanig voiceing your idias for improving Dawn would of been helpful telling it to the people working on SR2 HW forum (Dawns SR2 Input),,,,,,Now that Not saying you can't go there and have input in The next Dawn incarnation or facsimaly ect. Tell them what you thank thell lisen

Quote - The critiqueing time has past, meanig voiceing your idias for improving Dawn would of been helpful telling it to the people working on SR2 HW forum (Dawns SR2 Input),,,,,,Now that Not saying you can't go there and have input in The next Dawn incarnation or facsimaly ect. Tell them what you thank thell lisen

Hivewire's forum is  about as bad as this one when it comes to attacking people who critique Dawn... or Dusk. I'm literally afraid of saying anything negative there without them thinking you're a troll.

Quote - This isn't a let's trash Dawn thread. Seriously, you people drive me nuts sometimes. On one hand I have to deal with the Dawn cheerleading section over at Hivewire who don't want you saying anything remotely negative, and then over here where you mention the name, and people attack like piranha.

I see why people have left the Renderosity Forums. Maybe I should join the rush.

Well, if your forum base is mostly stuck in a Poser 7 timewarp, it shouldn't surprise anyone that people are leaving the forums. (And prefer V4 to any other figure)

The thing is - I was really hoping Dawn would let me retire V4.  My disappointments are based on the fact that I had such high hopes for the figure.  Those hopes were dashed by Chris' lacksidasical approach to developing morphs for the figure (and a corresponding male figure) and the vendors reluctance to do anything other than make yet more generic early 20's Caucasians. Which we already have an overabundance of courtesy of V4.

I have found the Faces of Asia & Faces of Africa products useful for Dawn, but without these types of morphs being available as a merchant resource, figures are limited for the most part to Caucasian only.

If Hivewire had released Dawn AND the full morph set at the same time, the Poser community could have easily moved to the Vicky Who? era.  Instead, we had an initial rush which has been reduced to a trickle of content.  Another thing that has slowed down my Dawn purchases is the fact that:

1.  With Lyrra's fitting room magnets, I can get V4 clothing on Dawn in about 30 seconds.  So there isn't actually a need to buy new clothing for Dawn.

2.  Most of what is being made (clothing content wise) is the same kind of hookerware that has already saturated the 'Rosity marketplace with V4.

Unfortunately, most vendors imagination doesn't extend beyond "Me too".  Seriously, how many strip clubs do we need in Poser?

Quote - > Quote - The critiqueing time has past, meanig voiceing your idias for improving Dawn would of been helpful telling it to the people working on SR2 HW forum (Dawns SR2 Input),,,,,,Now that Not saying you can't go there and have input in The next Dawn incarnation or facsimaly ect. Tell them what you thank thell lisen

Hivewire's forum is  about as bad as this one when it comes to attacking people who critique Dawn... or Dusk. I'm literally afraid of saying anything negative there without them thinking you're a troll.

I certainly agree with you on that.  I brought up the All Caucasians all the time issue over there five months ago - Chris said to just wait and see.  So I did - no change noted.

After waiting 5 months I brought it up again and people seem to only feel comfortable about talking about this issue via PM.

Earl!!

Those sho make a figure, be it Genesis, Dawn, My Michelle, Antonia, or whatever mesh, fall in love with their creation.

LOVE MAKES BLIND !

That is as true in 3D as it is in real life.

Antonia is a good figure, but do not expect a lot as the mesh does not follow body muscles.

I do not have My Michelle so  : No comment.

Genesis series "full" version is DS only.

Dawn is an old mesh technology that comes with a oversaturaded painting and a "non" standard jaw setup. (I"ll be polite here, OK?)

So? ? What realistic reactions did you expect? ?

And for each figure?
Their creators are in love with their creation and will defend her to the death.

Start any tread in any forum and expect "fire and flames"!!!!!

And as end result?
V4 is queen and has no competition. 

ssgbrian is right.

They created a hype, and did not deliver.

And then? Oh dear lord.
If a horce is more important then improving the original, or delivering the morphs for free? Or build a male figure? ?

Hello!

1. They created a hype they did not deliver
2. Started thinking in dollars but forgetting to make their figure popular first.
3. First morph pack did not deliver either
4. Horce
5. Still not a single "texture" worth the name?

And then continuing to hype "vapor"?

While most end users have thousands of dollars invested in V4???? Hey? ?

They have to rethink their strategy completely. FIRST make a new figure polpular, THEN start thinking in dollars. If you do not have the resources to overcome those two first years? Forget it.

YES,

ANY new HIGH QUALITY figure will require AT LEAST TWO years to win popularity over V4. And Dawn does not have the quality to do that at all.

Only AFTER you have smashed V4 of her throne can you start to think in dollars .

PS:

The above is as valid for SM as it is for DAZ as it is for Hivewire or any other 3D content builder.

Nice modeling Letherworks. Looks very good.

I don't  use Dawn for one simple reason:

I'm done fighting poor rigging to make something work!  I know the folks at Hivewire are huge DS fans, but until they put a full fledged, proper Poser rigger on staff, I won't use anything from Hivewire.

Rigging in Daz Studio and then sticking a Poser label on that junk rigging doesn't work.  It only results in clothing developers having to fight to make things work.  I can do that with V4.

When Hivewire shows enough concern for Poser users to hire a real Poser rigger, I'll consider spending my money on Hivewire rigged models.

The other issues I have with Dawn are

1.  Her mouth.  Sorry, it's ugly.  The Joker mouth just doesn't work for me.

2.  Her shoulders.  They are AWFUL.  Pose her shoulders down and turn her to the side.  She looks like a linebacker with boobs.

Quote - 3.  Figures built for her are the same collection of generic early 20's Caucasians that populate the V4 universe.  It has gone from being annoying to down right creepy.  Logan's Run is not the foundation of my artwork (unlike a lot of folks around here).

There are many ethnic characters available for the various figures. Just in the DAZ newsletter I saw in my e-mail today, there are two african characters - one male, one female, from two different vendors. Both for Genesis of course. But the fact is they are there.

Smith Micro has Olivia and 4 generations of Miki. They even included an African, Asian and Hispanic version of Ryan and Alyson in Poser 8.

HiveWire has their Faces of Africa and Asia sets. DAZ has their ethnic morph sets for the Gen4 figures.

Blackhearted made Shae, the african sister to Anastasia. She's one of my favorite characters. But I still don't see her in the galleries.  

Vendors are going to produce what makes them the most money, and base their decisions from that on what they enjoy making. If you look in the galleries today, on any of these sites, with all the ethnic options available for vendors to build from, you still find that the predominant character is that "20-something Caucasian gal" because that is what sells the most. It is reflected in TV, movies, magazines, books, comics, every aspect of pop culture. Even many ethnic artists still create that "20-something Caucasian gal", because, for whatever reasons, that is what draws the most attention and opens the most wallets.

The bottom line is that ethnic characters, just like male characters, are a niche market in Poserdom, because they remain a niche market in pop culture. 

Looking good Letterworks

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2553938&recent_upload&user_id=422884&member

Some nude warning for the image Ref in link

And Anastasia thank what she was made from  and she a Goddess of Beautiiyyy

Wooo!

If you want to discuss Poser figure development, how about creating a thread about it, so that no particular figures are the subject of the thread, that way it doesn't become a bashing contest. 

Most of the points stated here have been repeated over and over, so a thread like this just becomes arguments and encourages negativity. 

Same with the similar V4 thread. 

Quote - If you want to discuss Poser figure development, how about creating a thread about it, so that no particular figures are the subject of the thread, that way it doesn't become a bashing contest. 

Most of the points stated here have been repeated over and over, so a thread like this just becomes arguments and encourages negativity. 

Same with the similar V4 thread. 

 

Frankly, if I'd wanted to discuss Poser figure development as a WHOLE, I would have done just that. I wanted to find out from those who used those figures what THEY thought was so great about them and where THEY thought the main weaknesses were. I don't consider Genesis to be a Poser figure anyway, and everytime you bring it up certain people freak out if you mention anything negative about it  or DAZ, and frankly Shane, you're a little quick on the draw about locking threads. So I was trying to minimize what apparently happened anyway.

Actually EClark, I posted my message in this thread and your other identical thread, in an attempt to discourage the arguments that are bound to arise from it, and to save it from someone else locking it, because they were about to do just that. 

Don't assume I'm the only moderator that watches this forum, locks threads or deletes posts. You all like to accuse me of it, but I'm not always the one responsible. 

It's kinda funny. I guess if you visited a runner's forum, you might hear, "I prefer Adidas. I can't stand Nike. They don't fit my feet. But UnderArmor has great compression clothing." I think a swim forum that I frequented had a thread once: "TYR vs Speedo" And back in the days of the full length competition suits, there were some fierce arguments about which had the better tech. I fairly sure that a great many triathletes are very loyal to their favorite brands.

I'm reminded of living in Texas. Within minutes of meeting someone, you'd know whether they were a Ford truck, Chevy truck, or Dodge truck person, whether they drank Bud or Miller, Coke or Pepsi, sweet or unsweetened iced tea, and whether or not they preferred honky tonk to neotraditional country music.

It seems to be natural among humans to divide ourselves into groups. And if it's not blood ties, nationality, religion, class, politics, sports teams or brand names, we'll invent reasons. In my elementary school, kids grouped up depending on whether their favorite color was red or blue. No one admitted to liking green, and the pink/purple thing hadn't taken off. (My favorite 'color' was black -- but there was no goth movement back then that I was aware of.) ;)

I don't think it's because we crave conflict and want, necessarily, to fight over these things. More like a shortcut to getting to know someone. If we like the same "things", regardless of the reasons, we seem to like each other much faster.

All 3d figures have advantages and disadvantages. But any particular figure user might well say, "I use ____ because I like to hang out with other people who use ____." Though we may not always admit it, the social influence on our preferences can be huge. And why not? It's as good a reason as any. But we'll argue that this feature outweighs that bug till we're blue in the face. :) 

In the end, it's all a matter of personal taste.

Sometimes bugs become assets. 

Some of Poser's most significant features started out as bugs or clever tricks of ingenuity by the more daring, inventive users. I think conformers came about that way. In the early days of Poser the figures came with their clothes built in. Or maybe it was ERCs. Or perhaps both, I can't quite recall. 

Back in the old days I used to play a gamed called Ultima Online - was the first true MMO that started that whole craze. It had a lot of bugs. One particular bug was a black dye tub. They weren't supposed to exist in the game. (dye tubs where you added colors to a bucket of water to dye your toon's clothing). Someone managed to create a solid black tub by adding coal to it. Wasn't supposed to happen but it did, and everyone wanted solid black clothing, but no one knew how to make the black dye tubs in the beginning, and those few who did made a LOT of money dying clothes for people, or selling the tub outright. You could also get your tub stolen (cause pickpocketing was a skill, and anything you were carying was a risk you took). Later they became a vet reward for being in the game for a certain period of time, and were given out as gifts at holidays and the bug that caused coal to turn a tub black was removed. Ah, fun times. Now games are just cookie-cutter crap with no real exploration left. 

Quote - Actually EClark, I posted my message in this thread and your other identical thread, in an attempt to discourage the arguments that are bound to arise from it, and to save it from someone else locking it, because they were about to do just that. 

Don't assume I'm the only moderator that watches this forum, locks threads or deletes posts. You all like to accuse me of it, but I'm not always the one responsible. 

 

 

 

Sorry if i accused you of something you didn't do. You do tend to be the most vocal moderator though so might understand if you tend to get the most accusations. That said,  I still stand by my earlier statement that somebody's got an itchy trigger finger when comes to locking threads around here.

There have been maybe 2 or 3 threads locked in the last few months. I try to let people discuss what they want to discuss and not make certain topics off limits like other mods have done in the past. But at the same time there are some things that just pull all the trolls out of the woodwork and before I know what's going on there's already 3 or 4 pages of mud slinging because of something one or two people have said. Those are the main things that get threads locked and cause other people to stop posting here.

Also, I'm enjoying the rediscovery of old figures or figures I have not used much. I used Dawn, Stephaine Petite 3, and Victoria 2 in the attached image. I thought it turned out well. And, I am currently working on a comic that uses Victoria 4, Victoria 3, and Alyson 2.

I found using different characters adds wonderful diversity to my renders.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2546996&user_id=422884&np&np

Link has bikini nudeity

No, there aren't "many" ethnic characters, AmbientShade. - I own almost all of them :p

We only make Caucasian characters because Caucasian characters are popular and they are popular because we only make Caucasian characters.  This is called a positive feedback loop. 

OTOH, that doesn't seem to matter to vendors - look at all the vendors that do not make male clothing in 2014 because they had a poorly received article of male clothing in 2004.  Which ties into why I have no interest in listening to their whining about low sales. 

The whole "NDIATWAS" ties back to the OP's question - I use Dawn, but I would use her more and buy more content for her, if she had more than just a smattering of 20something Caucasians and club wear. 

Thankfully, clothing isn't an issue, courtesy of the fitting room (and Xdresser & WW to a lesser extent).  The same can be said of character textures courtesy of Texture Transformer.  I have money and by god I am willing to spend it - just not on clubware or 20something Caucasians for any figure, not just Dawn.

As an example, we still don't have a middle aged or old figure for Dawn of any ethnicity.  So when I need one of those (My stories have people of all ages in them mostly in the 30 - 55 age group - you know, adults) I am reaching for a different figure. 

Faces of Asia & Faces of Africa are great products (I own both) - but they aren't merchant resources - which kinda matters when most vendors are "dial spinners" and the company making the figure morphs don't consider ethnic morphs to be important.  Again, another example of the positive feedback loop that exists in the Poser/DS world.

<snipped an interesting paragraph about how marketing demographics is making advertising more "Caucasian" over the past 20 years.>

Are you really pushing the idea that the folks making NVIATWAS renders are the only demographic that matters?   If that is the direction that 'Rosity is going, my money and I will probably migrate to other storefronts.

The more skills I learn because of vendor intransigence, the less I need storefronts like Renderosity.   Which is why like other folks in this thread, my purchases at 'Rosity are moving more to things like sets & props and away from characters and clothing.

Quote - No, there aren't "many" ethnic characters, AmbientShade. - I own almost all of them :p

We only make Caucasian characters because Caucasian characters are popular and they are popular because we only make Caucasian characters.  This is called a positive feedback loop. 

OTOH, that doesn't seem to matter to vendors - look at all the vendors that do not make male clothing in 2014 because they had a poorly received article of male clothing in 2004.  Which ties into why I have no interest in listening to their whining about low sales. 

LOL, so let me ask you, if you have bills to pay are you going to do the job that makes the money or the one that doesn't simply because someone that has no idea how the job market works (and maybe has no job or expenses) says so?

You may not have interest in hearing about vendors making low sales on the things that you want, but then again the bill collectors have no interest about hearing people whine about not having money to pay the bills. Conversely I think the worker has no interest in someone that says they the should make no money when they have no idea how to do their job.

I think your argument that you repeat so many times have no rational basis in reality. People work to make money to pay their expenses. People can't do jobs that can't cover their expenses, unless they like to live on the street. You can't do it, so I'm not sure why you would asks vendors to; and I'm sure if someone told you to do a particular job (to make them feel better) which meant you would be broke and not pay bills, you would tell them to go jump in a lake. That's pretty much how life works for everyone.

Like any free market system, if there's a demand for it, then people will make it. If there's no demand, then it's not made. I think you can stand on a soapbox and complain that vendors don't do certain things, but I think it's the buying public you should be pointing your finger at. If you see lots of caucasian girls, erotic poses, strip clubs and skimpy clothing in a store, it's because that's what's opening up the customers' wallets. If you want something different, then probably you should pay someone up front to do it for you. It will cost you way more, but at least you have the stuff you want; make sure you have a job that pays for what you want to do, just like the vendors. :)

Quote - Are you really pushing the idea that the folks making NVIATWAS renders are the only demographic that matters?   If that is the direction that 'Rosity is going, my money and I will probably migrate to other storefronts.

The paying customers push this idea, not vendors. Remember: demand determines market. In order for vendors to make what you want, there needs to be a compelling demand to do so. One person wanting a black male and 1800's school teacher outfit is not going to sway vendors as much as hundreds of people with their wallets open wanting another bra and panty set with expose morphs and a big breasted caucasian female character. That's simply how the market works. If you want that to change, you have to shift the customers to want the same thing because they hold the power. You can try another store, but they're all selling the same thing, so your runtime is still going to be devoid of the stuff you want.

Quote - The more skills I learn because of vendor intransigence, the less I need storefronts like Renderosity.   Which is why like other folks in this thread, my purchases at 'Rosity are moving more to things like sets & props and away from characters and clothing.

I think this is probably the route you should take. If you need characters and clothing vendors can't afford to make, maybe you should learn to make them yourself. I'm guessing that's how some vendors got started: making things no one else wanted to make and carving a niche for themselves. Maybe you could become a vendor and see how vendor life actually is, not how you think it should be. I don't know, but I bet it would be an eye-opening experience for you. ;)

Quote - > Quote - The more skills I learn because of vendor intransigence, the less I need storefronts like Renderosity.   Which is why like other folks in this thread, my purchases at 'Rosity are moving more to things like sets & props and away from characters and clothing.

I think this is probably the route you should take. If you need characters and clothing vendors can't afford to make, maybe you should learn to make them yourself. I'm guessing that's how some vendors got started: making things no one else wanted to make and carving a niche for themselves. Maybe you could become a vendor and see how vendor life actually is, not how you think it should be. I don't know, but I bet it would be an eye-opening experience for you. ;)

That's pretty much the very route I've taken. Yeah, I use Roxie and the rest of the natives mainly BECAUSE they need the support. As for being a vendor. I almost wish I wasn't. I was never in it for the money. I doubt that very many people are actually paying that many bills with it as you've got so much competition, including freebie makers giving stuff away.And i still like making stuff for the niche market I've chosen. My one regret with being a vendor now is I had to up my quality game, perhaps a bit before I was ready. I could and would crank out  freebie outfits at a rate of one very week or two. You can check my freestuff library. My last vendor item was over a month ago. because I'm selling and I have to take my time and do it right. My big hang-up right now is learning to texture properly, but I'm close to getting that licked and then on to the next goal.

There are 2 ways to go.
Or you learn texturing, or you learn Posers procedural materials.
Both give good results and most depends on the purpose of the item.

In both cases you need good uv maps, and lucky for us Blender hase very good uv mapping tools and uv map editing tools. 
I spend as much time sculpting and fine tuning the uvmaps as I do on the modeling.

Oh, and I do not have the link handy right now, but there is a tutorial on youtube of how a guy textures a sword in Blender with incredible results.
And Blender 2.72 beta has improved painting tools. 

Let's not argue please.

I'm not saying that's the only demographic that matters, but I'm not a vendor right now - I do custom work for people who can't find what they want or need in the stores, and usually, one custom piece will pay my bills for a week. If I had more time then I would make content to sell in the stores, and in my down time between commissions I do work on content to put in the store, I just haven't had enough time to finish most of that content because I'm usually working on commissions. I have to do what pays me, because I'm one of those artists who do rely on this as my primary source of income - you know, those artists that supposedly don't exist. 

Here's -some- of the things the users came up with:

JCM

ERC

Conformers

Geometry switching

Transmapped hair (bows to the Japanese Poser community, particularly Kozaburo)  

Just about all the goodies we take for granted were created to get around the P4 limitations, and things like conforming clothing were bug exploitations. DAZ didn't think of any of it, neither did Poser's coders. It was the community.

Aaaaah, Ultima Online. Remember when Lord British got nuked? To have had a camera to record Garriot's expression.....  

I was very hopefull when Dawn was first announced and downloaded Dawn when the figure became available.  Trouble is I need a reason to move from V4 so any new figure has to do something that V4(WM) does not.  Better textures, better bending better expressions the list could go on and on but there needs to something.

Dawn may well be the future but to use her extensively at the moment I would lose some very good skin and eye textures that I have for V4, swap my expression, ethnic and creature morphs for a much more limited list of Dawn morphs and for what?  OK some of this I can work around by doing texture conversions but that is more hoops to jump through and again the question is why would I?

I do keep my eye on Dawn and Hivewire and really want them to be successful.  Recently I have seen some character morphs for Dawn that I do find tempting but at present there is too little I like for Dawn to allow me to use along side V4 let alone replace her.  All in all Dawn is not flexible enough to meet MY needs on a regular basis.  For others it will be a different story and I have no issue with that because that is the only way Dawn is going to stay viable long enough to compete.

I will say this in defense of Dawn and Hivewire. Information about Dawn, Dusk, and what Chris Creek are doing is perhaps too plentiful. People are too impatient about what's coming out and when. I, on the other hand, am not a slave to social media and just have to know what everyone's doing the moment they do it, and two, remember all too well the term "DAZ Soon".

Well I'm sort of breaking my own word here but here goes...

One of the reasons I like Dawn and hope to see her and her "relatives" workout is this. It took DAZ literally YEARS and numerous steps the reach V FOUR. Yes at the moment Dawn is about the same tech as V4 but I hope she will be the jumpoff that will lead to improved figures as time goes on. It's obvious that DAZ will not be making any inovations to thier figures to stretch Posers limits (I don;t blame them for this mind you, they have thier own software to support), Smith Micro just doesn;t have enough people on the payroll to experiment and develope figures (I BELIEVE that they have 2, one modeler and one rigger... I may be wrong... and these two work on any number of non-poser related projects as well). Lastly and sadly, I don;t see the community being as involved in inovations as they used to be. 

As stated most of the inovations in poser came from community members not the commercial sector, but a lot (NOT all!) of that innovative energy has gone and people seem to want someone else to do the experimenting and deliever a point and click answer. This won;t happen people! For the reasons above the BIG 2 are out. As far as the merchant base here and at the other sites... they are in this to make money and money (for individuals) isn;t made but experimenting and playing on the fringe, it is made by creating what already sells.

If people want to see figures that use Poser;s full potential it MUST come out of the user base. THis means that if nothing else we need to support those offering inovative attempts, even if they are flawed, and offer CREATIVE comments and criticism not slams and rants! We also need to be willing to PAY for some of these inovations even if they are only baby steps, to encourage the inovators to keep working.

Truthfully I don;t see this happening. What I see is the talent slowly being syphoned of to other areas ( the Antonia team for example) I have yet to see anyone excited about Angela2, Cindy the centaur etc. from Ali at Mankahoo, or the new Centaur at RDNA, all of which I have tried and found more than usefull if not perfect (Mostly in the cosmetic areas and that I can FIX).

These are, naturally, my personal opimions, if anyone is offended by this or wishes to let me know of other examples I'm not aware of, please let me know in site mail, not in this thread.

EDITED TO SAY:

I forgot to say thank you for the kind words on my models!

Quote - Also, what's the next thing they could do to make Dawn even better? For example, I just found out that some vendors are starting to use Poser's animatable joint technology  to make Dawn a more versatile figure Like make her  Catgirl.

Poser's animatable joint techknology that sounds intriguing do know of ant pics or video showing it being use

Sounds cool 

Quote - Sometimes bugs become assets. 

Some of Poser's most significant features started out as bugs or clever tricks of ingenuity by the more daring, inventive users. I think conformers came about that way. In the early days of Poser the figures came with their clothes built in. Or maybe it was ERCs. Or perhaps both, I can't quite recall. 

Back in the old days I used to play a gamed called Ultima Online - was the first true MMO that started that whole craze. It had a lot of bugs. One particular bug was a black dye tub. They weren't supposed to exist in the game. (dye tubs where you added colors to a bucket of water to dye your toon's clothing). Someone managed to create a solid black tub by adding coal to it. Wasn't supposed to happen but it did, and everyone wanted solid black clothing, but no one knew how to make the black dye tubs in the beginning, and those few who did made a LOT of money dying clothes for people, or selling the tub outright. You could also get your tub stolen (cause pickpocketing was a skill, and anything you were carying was a risk you took). Later they became a vet reward for being in the game for a certain period of time, and were given out as gifts at holidays and the bug that caused coal to turn a tub black was removed. Ah, fun times. Now games are just cookie-cutter crap with no real exploration left. 

 

I remember Ultima Online. :) I never played it, though. For online multiuser play, I always preferred MUDs. Not sure why. I guess your game engine has to be fairly compelling for a text based game to be interesting. The fact that MUDs were basically built by individuals with individual creativity and imagination (rather than industry catering to the mass market) may be why I enjoyed them. These days, I suppose that creative impulse from the gaming community (as opposed to the gaming industry) goes into modding.

Yes, to the bugs-to-assets point. :) Amazing what the human brain can come up with, when users are given the chance to develop assets.

Attached Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogVjot24X20

Here's the Poser demo. My fear with this is that no one will create the different types of morphs on figures that will use the AJCs.

That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

Quote - That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that? Basically, everything else was converting Andy to weightmapping because he isn't a weightmapped figure.

Quote - > Quote - That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that? Basically, everything else was converting Andy to weightmapping because he isn't a weightmapped figure.

You would have to understand steps to do the same thing in DS:

1. Enter Joint editor tool

2. Right click on shape, select "Adjust Rigging To shape"

3. Click "OK"

Done.

(You can also select which joints and surfaces of the mesh you wanted as well, that takes about another 20 seconds to figure out which)

I agree that it is unfair to compare Dawn to V4 at this present time as V4 has been around a long time and has time to mature.  I watch Dawn with interest and I have not written her off for the future.

As to being impatient, well I am not in general but I do think that the hype of Dawn long before she was available did Dawn a dis-service.  Personal opinion, but I think she would have made more of an impact if there had been basic and ++ type morphs available from day one.

Quote - > Quote - That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that? Basically, everything else was converting Andy to weightmapping because he isn't a weightmapped figure.

Compare that to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxrKgb_US64

When you have a heavy development cycle, you need tools to work accurate and as quick as possible. I don't the have time to do manual guess work where joints should go when auto rigging does it better and quicker. Probably why Dawn was rigged in Daz first and then ported over. Time is money, especially when you do this full time.