It seems as if PFO has closed or something. Not that I go there very often, but I need to get some of Sergemarck's stuff. All of his links don't work, and he says you can get them from PFO as well. What I'm looking for are the Millinium girls' dresses.

lalverson, what happened there? what scunion? i hope not again that old 'rosity vs pfo war...

yes, PFO is closed!And in my opinion its a big lost for the posercommunity !!! It was the first forum I visited after I bought poser, and I got every help a newbie needs. And I hope , someday it will be reopened.

This is the umpteenth time they've done this. What they will do is this: 1.)stomp away in a huff 2.)everyone will cry Noooo. Please don't go 3.)Then they will come back online. This will happen as sure as the sun rises and sets. So no need to worry. ScottA

As a relative newcomer I am not too certain as to what went on in the past, but do agree its a shame when a site goes down because of something like this. Like Shadowcat I really only use pfo to download sergemarcks stuff. I can get his stuff from his site, but tend to have about three or four bites of the cherry to get the complete download. And I was going to download some more of his stuff this weekend, cos I've got the bug about texturing his dresses. Oh well I guess I'll have to do it the hard way.

Hi Folks! I remember back during high school when my older brother and I got into a conversation after dinner about 20th century geopolitics. He said one of the ironies of World War I was that the monarchies of practically all of the European nations involved were related to each other by blood and/or marriage. It's too bad that all of these various Poser Forums, which descended from the same original small group of artists, can't find niches which allow each of them to coexist peacefully. Like many of us, I hold concurrent membership in several of them. But my greatest loyalty is to the sense of common purpose (digital art) and civility they offer, which allows us to conduct exchanges with each other online, regardless of skill level, platform, or nationality. I too hope PFO comes back. I also hope all these forum owners and admins can find a way to "all get along," and at least try to create the kind of tolerance in this virtual world that is so sadly lacking in the real world. AsI've said so many times--we're all artists here. Peter (Dr Zik)

Good riddance. PFO has been run by dictatorial, paranoid, uptight control-freaks from day one--fine with me if they go and stay gone. Never anything there I can use, anyway. And we're not all artists, though it sure seems like a hell of a lot of us like to going around telling each other we are. Moving. Grumpy.

And what the hell is a scunion?

I personally have never been able to figure out how they survived as long as they did...I agree with Mosca's statements wholeheartedly...My favorite example of their code of ethics was their opinion of people that tried to sell their poser related creations, such endeavors were considered evil and bad...Funny that Willow has been selling goods through Daz for some time now under a different name...As well known as she is why doesn't she simply use her real name????? In fact, I think she has some new items in the store there this week...They may have played a major role in creating the cottage industry that sprung from Poser but they apparently were not willing to grow along with it...Their constant mistrust of anyone and everyone that a had a different viewpoint from theirs was dealt with immediately by being banned from their forum...That is fine, they owned it, they could operate it anyway they see fit...I am just sorry to say, having been there from the beginning I have no sympathy for them considering what supposedly happened today...

Well, I don't know what supposedly happened today, but I just cruised by there and they are now back open for a while and looking for a 3rd party to run it. I highly doubt that it will go away.

well I just went over there ad just the front page is up, after that I get "temporarily closed for maintenance"

I wish them well....I cannot see what "advantage" it is to us if they were to be gone....and no one forces any of us to go there if we don't like what they do or how they run they're nest....they haven't bothered us, they aren't here to cause trouble, (unless I am missing something), so perhaps we should let them be now and let them have their space too....no harm in that at all...right..?? They have had their share of problems in the past and have not had it as easy as some may think.....let them be now... that's just my opinion.

"My favorite example of their code of ethics was their opinion of people that tried to sell their poser related creations, such endeavors were considered evil and bad..." ANOTHER piece of misinformation that people like to pounce on. Willow was NEVER against people selling their Poser related creations. Just Willow didn't want advertising or selling at the PFO, she felt it distracted from what the forum was about, learning and creating art. Coldrake

Coldrake, I am not trying to start any problem here regarding what I said....What I was trying to say is something you would never agree on with me...Yes, their desire was to keep the PFO noncommercial but yet....Willow decided to become somewhat of an enigma over the last year or so...I really think that her decision to sell goods under a different was terrible choice on her part....In my mind that has lead to a situation that has left some people confused as to what the PFO's true motives were...There is no reason that anyone around here should feel any need to keep their identity hidden....The items that are being sold at Daz seem to me to be top notch...I just don't like the idea that there seems to be some secretive thing about who the actual artist is...And Radart, as far as you are concerned...Get a clue, you are missing out something in regards to this matter...

The problem with keeping PFO noncommericial is that it is in effect censorship. Who here doesn't have some poser related item that they paid for? How can we not talk about what is out there? If they want to have any kind of disscussion on 3D graphics some commercialism is going to creep in, and the renderosity website is going to be mentioned as will all the other big sites (Daz & poserworld comes to mind) Say for example someone asks about where to find a certain model and it happens to be a commercial item, are we supposed to say nothing? Now I don't know what the entire history of PFO, nor do I know what happens behind the scenes over there. Maybe it has something to do with an agreement with Daz?

Kennect, Willow is not trying to hide anything, and Morphing Kinematix not a "hidden identity". It is the name of a company comprised of SEVERAL people offering many different services such as web site design, multimedia presentations, etc, in addition to 3D modeling and others. If I was part of a company comprised of several different people offering many different services, I wouldn't call it "Larry". ;) This is a perfect example of why things get out of hand around here. You (and others) make statements such as, "My favorite example of their code of ethics was their opinion of people that tried to sell their poser related creations, such endeavors were considered evil and bad..." Totally untrue as I've shown in my above post, and "I really think that her decision to sell goods under a different was terrible choice on her part....In my mind that has lead to a situation that has left some people confused as to what the PFO's true motives were...There is no reason that anyone around here should feel any need to keep their identity hidden...." "I just don't like the idea that there seems to be some secretive thing about who the actual artist is..." In light of the facts I stated in my first paragraph, your statements above make no sense. Of course everyone believes you when you make such statements because they are as ignorant of the facts as you are in this particular situation. Why people make assumptions and make such statements without having any idea of what the actual facts are, I don't know, but this is the kind of thing that causes misunderstandings, flame wars, insults and all the other nasty things that have show up here in the C&D, and oftentimes continue outside the forums, which can lead to situations which are hurtful and unnecessary. Thank you Shadowcat for another example. "Say for example someone asks about where to find a certain model and it happens to be a commercial item, are we supposed to say nothing?" "How can we not talk about what is out there?" Of course you can talk about "what is out there", people at the PFO talk about commercial products all the time. You just can't advertise commercial products. See how easy it is to spread misinformation? :) If people would just make sure they have the facts and not make assumptions, and NOT believe everything people say in the forums, a lot of the ugliness that has been seen in the C&D (and outside) lately could have been avoided. I'm not trying to cause problems either, just trying to clarify some things. Coldrake

Coldrake, You can go on believing whatever you like...I couldn't care less if you want to continue support for those two....I guess I am completely wrong, Willow is a saint and we should bow our heads in her presence...

Just correcting some false information. Coldrake

Hrmmm... lots of history on both sides of this one. No need to refight it over again is there? What's done is past.

Ironbear...I realize "that" is a very subtle hint that this post has indeed run its' course and is best left in mothballs...and I certainly do NOT wish to carry it on even further....basically I just wished to come on and "agree" with you..."what is the point?...it's past" kennect...with all due respect..."get a clue" was unecessary, my awareness is far more than I wish it was way too many times...I am not a forum virgin... Take care...

Shadowcat, because of some kind topics in Renderosity and 3Dcommune and emails to the whole world from the same people, PFO and DAZ-PFO funstuff, which was hosting (I say hosting, not linking) my files are dead. I never entered in this stupid forum war were some guys regularly produce old rancours and use any occasion to try to destroy other forum. But this time, I would really thanks all those who emailed DAZ and succeded in putting down what was a real contribution to the poser community. Thanks again, guys ! Serge Btw, my files are always on my site at http://members.fortunecity.com/poserfashion/ I know the pbs with fortunecity. I can't resolve them. I will not answer anymore to messages or emails about fortunecity. Give me some time until my anger disappear.

A tiny minority of hate filled zealots destroys something and affects a vast community and we should all regard it as "done and past"? Oh, wait a second, I'm sorry, I must have wandered into the wrong thread. Where's that new "parking lot" thing...

Personally, I'm still fairly new to all of this, so I don't really know the whole story behind all of this, and honestly, I don't really care. The only important factor to me is that the PFO kept harrassing and banning anyone who even mentioned Renderosity, and that's just unacceptable. The debate we're having here now, and have had before, couldn't have happened there because they wouldn't allow any mention of Renderosity. They made their choices and now they have to live with the consequences. That said, if and when they do get back up and running, I for one will gladly put all of this aside, so long as they don't start that same old shit again. It's their choice: welcome us with open arms or continue to suffer for their ignorance.

Would you all really like me to give a mile long editorial on what I think happened and how we got to this very point right here?? I can ya know....trying real hard not to cause I really don't want to cause I am tired of all this...besides not having the time and energy and not wishing to be that selfish as to give just "my opinion" cause that ain't fair....but I do know it can't all be said in just a few words without making one look worse than the other and a doodoo there and a doodoo here and another doodoo elsewhere and the doodoo's go on and on......that's just unfair...in a nutshell lots of bad and good shit has happened on the forums, (plural), and many folks learned from many experiences and others did not and so on and on it goes....and every once in a while little pustules like this pop up where one can just feel the heat rising..... I often think many of us are missing out here big time ya know....really....we should all get together and make some big fat comic or write a novel about all the forums histories...it be a best seller and a real learning experience all around...BUT...it have to be done with total bias and from all sides....I'm not counting on that to happen any time soon though....not at all! But think of it..."The Incredible Forumhulk "...or "AS the Forums Turn"....or "To have a Forum or not to have a Forum"...or "The Foruminator"...or "The Tale of Many Forums"....or ....gee....kinda joking here but does anyone get the notion that I may be on to something here...??? ..............off to find a good agent..........:-o

Well darn...gee..that's out...they balked at it...said it just didn't have any substance and just not enough consistency and figured it be a dust collector within a week.......just can't win.....oh well....toodles...

This whole thing reminds me of the thread attacking Americans for the nuking of Japan. Whether our side behaved badly or not, whether Ian and Willow were royally screwed or not, that was then, this is now, most of us weren't even here when all that happened, and their continuing grudge against Renderosity, whether warranted or not, has cost us all. Let's all hope that PFO returns, but without all this ancient baggage, a site where we're all welcome and we can all feel at home at.

Well....although I think what you suggest would be an absolutely, superbly awsome and wonderful idea all around, (just for the sake of art and creativity and how much we all have to offer one another as resources and talents and inspirations and for all those thing we would actually have in common)....I'm afraid we need to learn to "exist" in harmony before any of that "getting along" could ever hope to happen.... That's not meant in a bad way...just a rational one. And that's not to suggest I am always rational either so.... Take care.

Looking for a 3rd party? For hosting the site? The company who owns Curious Labs hosted the PFO, right? Have they finally gotten sick of Grey implying that AOL users all share some sort of greedy attitude and are warez-ers? Or maybe they got sick of them referring to Renderosity as a "warez site" (the old "Rule #10")? For those who liked the place, it's somewhat of a tragedy, I guess. Having been on the receiving end of threats of lawsuits, as well as harassment from Grey, over the 3DM 2 OBJ incident, which I had absolutely nothing to do with, I can't find it in me to even care one way or the other if they go down forever or stay. To me, the PFO is like a black hole (pun intended?)...I know it exists, but I don't want to go to see it up close and in person.

Like Scott said, they're back (Last I heard). I doubt DAZ will host for them again though, it's bad for business.

A lot of things "are bad for business" JeffH...but they are still bad nevertheless..... kennect...I retract my statement, seems I have missed "some" clues after all and when I do I have no problem ohning up....MikeJ, I was not aware of some of this....that sucks. Nevetheless Mike and with all due respect....as much as I think this sucks and as much as you are my friend....I still can't bring myself to wish them to be totally gone....I think if we were to start piling up all the bad things that sucked of ALL forum history ALL AROUND they too have had their share of misery which may well have led to much of the dissention that caused all these other bad things that suck which by no means makes these other things that suck okay cause there is just no excuse for a bad sucky things but one bad sucky thing leads to another bad sucky thing sometimes....um...er....I can see that I am really not making much sense....that sucks too....so maybe I need to stop and think..... (some damn seagull just shit on my car windsheild when I went out to the store...plopping big splatter too...indication I gotta watch myself.......could'a been waaaaayyyy worse had my sun roof been open....eeewweeeee.....) :-o

Hey Rad, that's cool. As for me, I'm over it, and the PFO, to me, is like this thing that happened somewhere else, to someone else, in another dimension... I have to admit to having been really pissed off on several occasions by Grey and a few others, but mostly by Grey and the stream of emails he sent me. In case you don't know, Dave Lerner, of the PFO wrote the OBJ 2 3DM utility, which converts .obj files into .3dm files so they can be used in Rhino for Poser morph targets. Rhino will export .obj, but will not import that format. Anyway, dave lerner wrote this program, and it's perfect, and I do mean perfect, and is probably used by everyone who uses Rhino and Poser. It was offered as a free utility, no less. :) Somehow, the utility found its' way into the Renderosity Free Stuff. For no reason other than that I was in the midst of a feud at the time over the PFO's infamous "Rule # 10", which stated Renderosity is a warez site (it's been changed since, to be inflammatory only towards Edgenet, and not the members as well), Grey decided to chose me as his "official" contact in the matter, and threatened me that if I was aware of this and just sat there and did nothing about it, I would be held accountable, too. Not like he scared me, or anything; to the contrary, he just pissed me off. He was like, completely out of line, and out of control. he did however have a point about why was it in the Free Stuff, but his attacks on me were completely unjustified. I didn't put it there, and I didn't even know it WAS there. But, Grey was enraged, and I guess I was the only one around at the time who was giving him a hard time. You would think he'd have found someone more important to pester, right? i have to admit though, I wasn't exactly guilt-free--every time I saw him blathering on about "Render-Theft" or "rend-Atrocity", on the Poser List, I couldn't resist getting in there with him, and when I saw the Rule # 10, that was it. it was my complaining about that in the PFO board that led to my being banned from there. Oh well. Sure, it would be nice if everyone could get along, but, we don't. There is alot of hatred in the PFO from both admins and members, towards the Renderosity site, and I'm afraid that alot of that hatred does carry over to the members themselves. I've seen Willow reprimand people for simply mentioning Renderosity in a post. Actual linking to here would certainly call for a banning. Ahh...who cares--- I don't, not anymore. Live and let live, eh?

"the PFO kept harrassing and banning anyone who even mentioned Renderosity" "they wouldn't allow any mention of Renderosity." Wrong again. Posting links weren't allowed, mentioning Renderosity is allowed. "Actual linking to here would certainly call for a banning." No, the link would just be deleted. "Ahh...who cares--- I don't, not anymore." Apparently you do, otherwise you wouldn't have made your last two posts, even after Ironbear said, "No need to refight it over again is there?" If some of you want to keep obsessing about this, I guess thats up to you....... As far as I'm concerned, it's time to drop the bashing. Coldrake

Well....I can certainly symphazise, I am not about to argue your points Mike as I know you quite well and you mean about as much harm as a baby does to a rattle to other folks...your just a nice swell guy all around Mike....(I don't think there's anything wrong with me saying that). As well...you had absolutly nothing to do with the greater forum past histories so really, your like a kid with a clean diaper here all around.....for lack of a better way to describle this. I, on the other hand, am not free to suggest such purity of myself both in my diaper and in my head that knows more than it "wants" to know way too many times. You know....the past is the past and is gone, a lot of boohicky happened all around, and I am sincerely sorry that so many had to be washed along the tides of contraversy long after everything SHOULD have really been done and forgotten...but then whom am I to say when stuff should be done and forgotten anyways?? Let me tell you something as best as I can. I don't like a lot of the shit that has happened in the past on the forums, and I also don't like a lot of stuff that actually happened to Willow and Grey neither, stuff that is really none of my business or right to speak about so I will not....suffice it to say it was bad...suffice it to say "some" of this stuff I also did not know about at one time....and again, I wish I didn't even know! Was it bad enough to go on a tangent and call this place a warez site and do all these things forever on end and blah, blah, blah, blah...?? Heck....I am not even sure if I am totaly "over" my own little nightmares from my old haunts....the only thing that has made me more rational is the hard "learning" I have endured and my own realization that I am not as angelic as I once may had boasted myself to be....as you well know I have also had my own share of "not letting things go" and wanting to "get even" more than once...sometimes I didn't even know with who....just a bloody anger about everything I suppose....but when it all came down the gutter, the only one I was hurting was MYSELF....I needed to get a hold of faculties. So...do I rate enough to suggest Willow and Grey should or shoud have known better?? Do I have that right?? NO!!! Bloody hell no! All I CAN do is HOPE that eventually somehow they get to realize, (like me and others), that whatever it is that drives their anger and frustrations about past issues to make them so bitter still....all I can do is hope that feeling can eventually die and go away. I know I sound melodramatic here....like give me a break...it all sounds like some big soap opera, I realize this...but ya know there was a LOT of HURT and I know this for a fact....some folks, if they got this HURT, well, I would like to see what they would do....and I ain't talking about ME here now, not at all....my part is petty and miniscule compared to some shit that happened and frankly, my own shit was mostly just ME and my pride getting stomped on and not much more. Some folks were literally destroyed and that's nothing to easily forget and very easily something to want to get even for....again, not suggesting that it's right though....not at all. But this is NOT my place...people change, things change....the past slowly fades and we hope it heals in time...and I am very concerned that I may have said far too much already here that is none of my beezwax....I suppose I am merely trying to pay respects to the other side of the coin, because there IS one, there is always one...there is ALWAYS two sides to EVERYthing in life and on forums too and....rereading this again,...I "think" I am okay here with what I say....but I am treading on eggshells and I don't like this and I wish we could all just go and talk about the naked top twenty instead now..... Take care....sigh....I do wish I would stop rambling....

Pretty much. shrug I've butted heads with Grey on occassion. I'm sure Grey's not always trilled about some of my opinions on in forum discussions he and I have had. That does NOT mean I'm happy to see another site closed, and a community resource lost. That would be me blaminging the site and it's members for the disagreement in viewpoints I had with an admin... pretty silly. I butted heads with Jack a while back at the Commune, and I doubt he blamed the site for my disagreement with him, nor did I suddenly hate Renderotica over our clash. Likewise, if I have a clash with one of the mods I work with here - I don't suddenly hate Renderosity over it. Disagreements between site admins and moderators happen. That's business. My feelings about/disagreements with a admin at another site have nothing to do with my feelings about the site and it's membership. How do I feel about Grey's resignation? That's no one's business but mine and Grey's. And I'm not going to bash the PFO over it no matter how I feel on it.

As someone very wise once said (and I'm paraphrasing here): There are two sides to every story and more often than not the truth of the matter lies somewhere between the two. 'Nuff said? Kate

There was a post a couple of weeks ago made by a new member of the PFO...The person said they had read many tutoritals at Renderosity and just couldn't wait to learn more about Poser and asked for help...The first response to that message was from Willow...She suggested that that the new member start by reading their TOS and rules...Now is that the way any forum greats a new member? I don't think so...Coldrake, do have a response to that or am I just crazy in my mind?

You've been tripleted, kennect. ;]

It seems I have been Ironbear...Nice to know I can reproduce!!! I think maybe I should hit a few delete keys!!!

snicker Oh no! They're BREEDING! Ruuuuuuuunnnnnn!

....is THAT why so many of us wear belts?? (heh) There is another saying as well.... Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending. But I refuse to hold my breath on that one....sigh

"Coldrake, do have a response to that" Yes I do....... Kennect, here's Willow's response. "Welcome to the PFO. You may want to check out the rules and policy also." Doesn't sound rude to me. The new member certainly wasn't offended in any way, as a matter of fact she seemed quite happy with the responses they received in the thread, and has been posting regularly since. "am I just crazy in my mind?" No, I just think you're grasping at straws, desperately trying to find any way you can to disparage Willow and the PFO. Please, it's time to move on. Coldrake

There was a guy telling his friend that he and his wife had a serious argument the night before. ....."But it ended," he said, "when she came crawling to me on her hands and knees." "What did she say?" asked the friend. The husband replied, "She said, 'Come out from under that bed, you coward!'"

Coldrake, I have no need to grasp for straws considering the subject...I simply made that post to give an example as to how anyone that mentions Renderosity is treated at the PFO...I have never seen any other type of post that suggests a new member should read the rules...I lost all respect for Willow when I was acussed by her and Grey as posting under a different name to create trouble there...I never did but yet they said some members knew for a fact that I had...It was complete BS on their part...Later Grey posted a public apology about the issue but locked the thread so no one could respond...You can defend them if you like but let me ask you this....Do you really think that everyone that has ever posted a complaint or remark about the PFO is simply just making up stuff to give those two a bad time? How many times was Grey thrown off the Poser mailing list since he wouldn't stop bad mouthing Renderosity? Did someone make that up also? For anyone that wants to believe Daz dumped them based on an email hate campaign fine, believe it...Even if I was Willow, I would have been smart enough to remove all of the bad remarks regarding Render from my TOS and rules just as a way of trying to look like a true professional that was running a business and then I would have told my husband to keep his mouth shut...I really wish someone would lay a golden egg in my hands so I could screw it up as bad as they did...Give it up Coldrake, they screwed themselves over and over and have no one to blame but themselves....

This is not meant as an offense to you kennect or anyone else here...please note this now.... Okay people's look....I know Willow and Grey have shown nothing but contempt for this place...that's all we ever hear about whenever threads like this startup. We certainly are not liked over there and Renderosity certainly IS a dirty word more or less. But can we be rational about this for one moment? Help me think enough to talk about this without causing even more shit, cause that's not what I want to do, not at all. I am just real tired of this. I have nothing to lose or gain by just keeping my mouth shut and letting this go on....or saying anything more....either way it won't do anything for me....except for some crappy dumbass reason I get the feeling I just gotta say something cause this just ain't fair somehow. It's this stupid feeling I have...go figure....I am a lost cause and can't help myself! We are human...and we are members. On the whole I would like to think that we are humans first and members second because as members we are still only virtual entities....as humans we are for REAL...life, our talents, our art, our entire make-up of whom we are encased in a real, living, breathing shell full of flesh and feelings. On forums such as this where we mingle day to day it is sometimes very easy to forget that we are all very real people outside of these encampments of virtual members. It's so simple to heckle, ridicule and troll another because it has no real meaning to us except for as much as any of this may affect us in our REAL lives. So what am I getting at here? We could all agree quite easily that upon these forums it is quite different to have our debates and slurs and flaming upon each other here from having someone with a grudge or spite going into the galleries and singling out our good work and trolling it with badass comments and graffiti <----that hurts! We all seem to know that on the whole is one thing...personal is the shits and very unwarranted. When we are administrators or forum leaders it is quite simple to suggest that as such representatives we need to take the punches with our roles...but again....is it right to have to bring it HOME or to our personal life and being? We are all members of forums....as such when the forums and its' people are ridiculed or called names we should be upset and we should have a problem with this, naturally. We are all humans...as such when our personal lives are upturned and seared as a runoff of events that happen on these virtual forums...then it gets rediculous, extremely!! I don't know about you but fighting virtual battles is one thing....having it get "personal" is another....the personal shit, that's enough to leave one helluva nasty impression on anyone affected thus and no virtual "plural" insult could ever be as bad as one that follows you to your REAL life! That can leave one BADASS sour taste in your mouth against whatever direction it came from, even if that missile launcher is not even there anymore, that don't matter, you just know that the missile that penetrated your real world and caused so much grief came from that direction and you do not want to ever even know that the place where this came from and the people that may have condoned this launch resided, you do NOT wish to ever acknowledge that place again! This is the "feeling" I "think" is causing a lot of this dissention at the PFO and I really apologize for saying this....I may even be way wrong....but from what I know....this is it, this is basically what broke the camel's back and has never healed and may never heal no matter how much this place changes. Many of you folks here get real upset when your artwork gets trolled, imagine having your LIFE get TROLLED beyond comprehension....so bad that your real life may never be quite the same again. There are cool talented folks on both sites and so many things HAVE changed over time and things have become so much more professional all around...(except this C&D forum, hehe)... but deep scars are very hard to heal and they can make one blind with a passionate rage forevermore...... I understand...and I don't understand...but one thing I do know..."some things I wish I didn't know".... it all just gives me one big bloody "real" headache! Now I am going to abide by Ironbears wishes long ago in this thread and depart from it. Take care.

Or to put it less philosophically: we've beaten this poor dead horsie into a bloody smear.

Rad, I like the joke...come out from under the bed....LOL that was very nice intermission to all this rederick. Cazcie

You sure your not implying rhetoric...? (oops...pretend I'm not here...I departed)....pardon me now....:-o ...........a passionate and fullfilling day to all anyways

[[There are two sides to every story and more often than not the truth of the matter lies somewhere between the two.]] Quite true. I would add: "Very often the truth is found somewhere else altogether." Not putting anybody down, or anything like that, but sort of broadening the field of view.

{[[There are two sides to every story and more often than not the truth of the matter lies somewhere between the two.]]} Actually, I'm beginning to think the number of sides in a story is equal to the number of people involved +1...

You've got a point there fellas.