it's too late by now to get anything in the rmp for Valentine's day?

Given my past experience, yes.  Even an exclusive product won't get through testing and in a store within 10 days.

I think we are saying Gen4 is dead in the water then. I hope for Poser's sake that isn't so. I may start with V4 anyway as I'm so far advanced there. Perhaps do Daz versions later.

I think we are saying Gen4 is dead in the water then. I hope for Poser's sake that isn't so. I may start with V4 anyway as I'm so far advanced there. Perhaps do Daz versions later.

Don't worry, folks have been trying to kill off V4 since forever.  No Vicky killer yet.

I have recently considered becoming a Vendor, so thank you for the helpful advice. I guess my main concern is that all my skills revolve around Poser and V4, but I can see that a number of Vendors have jumped ship to Genesis. If back sales are important, would it be best to spend months now acquiring the necessary skills to focus on Genesis or jump in immediately with V4 stuff ?

It depends on where you are planning to sell.  Genesis is very strong at DAZ, at Rendo it looks like G2 and V4 are about even, looks like G2 may be gaining but I haven' talked to anyone about that since the summer. I see several vendors I talk to on occasion consistently putting out G2 content. You can still do really well with V4, but also consider your overall skills. Some people like to wit till they are ready to be a major player, others start early and go through more growing pains. To me some of the growing pains (low sales and mistakes) would have been too discouraging if I was trying to be a vendor, so I waited till I felt I could be decently competitive for one of the top seller spots.  Back catalog matters, but it still needs to be quality product.

Personally, I don't worry so much about developing a back catalog, I focus on making each new product being the best  I can make at the time, and the back catalog just builds over time.  I noticed that every time I take shortcuts on a product, I regret them, every time I go all out, it pays extra. Also my personal focus is on high detail, closeups, so I found a tactic that works for a combination of what I like to do and what sells. It is definitely not the only way to approach being a successful vendor.

Anyhow, my recommendation is to let your skill be the determining factor about when to become a vendor. Another things that worked well for me it to not be in a rush to become a vendor, keep learning, make my own stuff and freebies, and let your freebie users, or the brokerage encourage  you to become a vendor. Then you know for sure you're getting close to being good enough... and not getting repeatedly rejected or having bad sales (like 5 sales for two weeks of effort) is a plus. It is hard to stay confident and enthusiastic about what you are doing if you are getting a lot of rejection. This is also a bit tailored to my own personality - I tend to be really hard on myself where I'm always on the verge on running myself into the ground, so a lot of external negativity would not be a motivator to work harder, it would 'finish me off' so to speak.

So in my case roughly by my third product I was inching into top vendor category, but I also prepared to be a vendor for about 3 years (some of it while I was still working full time, so it wasn't 3 years of full time work)...

Soo... Individual mileage may vary.

Well, you can just release a product with promos and let the sites marketing team do their bit, but nothing stops you from starting a product thread to gain traction or add a promo vid showing the product in action. I have found that extra effort has really helped. People know before hand what is to come and it generates some hype instead of just being drawn to their attention when it is released in the stores. So yes, you do pay these sites to handle marketing for you, but nothing stops you from giving your work more exposure. That does require more effort, but that is strictly up to you if you feel it is worth it or not.

Nod Nod! Most successful vendors do a good amount of that. Preview the product, create some anticipation, give your user base some chance to interact with you, stir some interest, run a contest. All those things help with building a following. It is also possible to build a following without this - some vendors do it, some don't.
Personally, I like to do it, I enjoy a degree of interaction with my customers. I'd actually like to do it more, but have to limit my time at some point or it becomes cost prohibitive. On a larger piece, I'll typically spend a day to two promoting the product (not necessarily all in one lump of time) To do it the way I would really like to do it, it would take 50% of my time, and that is not affordable, because it would not increase my sales enough to cover the time investment. As a vendor you're constantly evaluating if something is/was worth doing or not, and whether it is a short or long term investment you are making. Some things pay off quicker than others.

A comment in general:

Act professional and you will be professional.

If someone wishes to make a living by creating and selling 3D content and they don't think they need to be professional about it, they won't make a living by professionally selling 3D content. It is really that simple.

That means that you have to do more than just plaster boob shots all over the place when you're trying to sell shoes... Want to sell hair? Golly, maybe it'd be a good idea to spotlight your hair model instead of fifty different alluring face-shots. (And, please, stop it with the thirty different color filters on your textures. We get it - Yes, there are lots of colors in the spectrum. Thank you...) Want to sell unique morphs? Outstanding! Make them... unique. Want to sell clothes? Great! Spend some time learning how to rig, though. Oh, and don't forget that a texture and a bump map don't replace the need for real geometry. Want to sell dynamic clothes? Then don't just autogenerate whatever your magical clothing maker decides to cough up and call that a "product." And please, please... 3D objects are based on something called "geometry." Discerning buyers would appreciate seeing what your product's geometry looks like. If your geometry looks like poop, learn how to "geometry" so it doesn't look like poop. :) (Obey product standards and common conventions when constructing your geometry and groups. Thanks in advance. ;))

And, if you're doing your own marketing, please learn appropriate grammar. If English is not your primary language, get a friend to help translate for you. There's no shame in that. (Renderosity and other brokerages should be doing that by default, in my humble opinion.) If you're producing your own renders and graphics, please learn how. There's no "do art" button, but... for goodness sakes, if you're producing products for rendering programs you could at least prove that you tried to learn how to use the program you're creating for! It's a rare thing to see a decently rendered promo pic these days. A great promo render, focusing on the darn product being sold, would win half the battle for a possible audience to market to.

Know your audience. Know what they want and what you're going to have to do in order to give them what they want. And, if you don't know what they want, then know enough about what you're doing in order to convince them that your product is what they want. Fill a need or create a need - That's basic business.

If one wishes to make money with their hobby, there's nothing wrong with that. But, if one wishes to try to become a "professional" at anything, one has to do more than just fiddle around with it. Professionals take the time and make the effort to learn how to be professionals. If one doesn't do likewise, one will not be a professional. I'm of the general opinion that anyone who makes the effort and dedicates the time to learn a trade can succeed at that trade, no matter what it is. Unfortunately, many people base their expectations upon misconceptions. They have those misconceptions because they didn't take the time nor expend the effort to learn otherwise.

 MistyLaraPrincess : I always enjoy ya Renderosity gallery with DAZ Poser renders but I Don't see any zBrush ,Max etc etc renders .
ya half to be able to make content to sell content.3D CGI Studios aren't cheep. ya can lease some app's now like Max.
they take a while to learn ,take a while to get good at ,takes a while to get fast at.
some 3D app's n plugs are very fast ,others not fast enough for vendors but fine for hobbyist.
ya can tell what vendors make the most $$$ ,there the ones with the best stuff.
and you can bet they have a top of the line 3D CGI Studio also.
Vendoring is a competition. ya can't win winston cup with ya family car.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

I always thought it was odd stuff at turbo cost more then DAZ Poser .when it take more effort for DAZ Poser.

Last I looked The biggest venders at turbo are Max venders. 

That means that you have to do more than just plaster boob shots all over the place when you're trying to sell shoes... Want to sell hair? Golly, maybe it'd be a good idea to spotlight your hair model instead of fifty different alluring face-shots. (And, please, stop it with the thirty different color filters on your textures. We get it - Yes, there are lots of colors in the spectrum. Thank you...) Want to sell unique morphs? Outstanding! Make them... unique. Want to sell clothes? Great! Spend some time learning how to rig, though. Oh, and don't forget that a texture and a bump map don't replace the need for real geometry. Want to sell dynamic clothes? Then don't just autogenerate whatever your magical clothing maker decides to cough up and call that a "product." And please, please... 3D objects are based on something called "geometry." Discerning buyers would appreciate seeing what your product's geometry looks like. If your geometry looks like poop, learn how to "geometry" so it doesn't look like poop. :) (Obey product standards and common conventions when constructing your geometry and groups. Thanks in advance. ;))

And, if you're doing your own marketing, please learn appropriate grammar. If English is not your primary language, get a friend to help translate for you. There's no shame in that. (Renderosity and other brokerages should be doing that by default, in my humble opinion.) If you're producing your own renders and graphics, please learn how. There's no "do art" button, but... for goodness sakes, if you're producing products for rendering programs you could at least prove that you tried to learn how to use the program you're creating for! It's a rare thing to see a decently rendered promo pic these days. A great promo render, focusing on the darn product being sold, would win half the battle for a possible audience to market to.

This seems more customer opinion-oriented than actual vendor advice and in the scope of starting to vendor not very helpful. If you were a vendor, you would actually know that those "artistic renders" sell far more product than standard, plain shots of geometry. It's always helpful to include a few plain shots, however that's not what draws the majority of the customers in and brokerages will reject products until you provide flashier promos to make the product more appealing. Also the vendor may had made those renders as part of the promos and those promos get rejected before they are put in the store. As I said earlier, these are the kinds of suggestions that end up costing sales, when people give advice that don't have the background to do so. 

is anyone using uu3d in their workflow?

looks about the same price tag as uvmapper pro.

uvunfolding odd shaped objects, with minimalist distortion, takes a very long time with my current tools.

thanks :)

it's too late by now to get anything in the rmp for Valentine's day?

Given my past experience, yes.  Even an exclusive product won't get through testing and in a store within 10 days. Thanks. :)

The next seasonal theme would be Spring, i guess.  But then again, the other side of the world is heading into Winter.

Glitterati3D Wrote:
"Don't worry, folks have been trying to kill off V4 since forever.  No Vicky killer yet."

Yeah, listen, I've killed lots and lots and lots of Vickies!!!
But there is still lots more Vickies to kill as well!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

is anyone using uu3d in their workflow?

looks about the same price tag as uvmapper pro.

uvunfolding odd shaped objects, with minimalist distortion, takes a very long time with my current tools.

thanks :)

UV Layout is what will give you professional speed and quality, unless you have cinema4d or maya or max or zbrush. You will also need UV mapper Pro for preppinfg the OBJ's for poser... mat zones, grouping, welding and occasional vertex and normal manipulation.

it's too late by now to get anything in the rmp for Valentine's day?

Given my past experience, yes.  Even an exclusive product won't get through testing and in a store within 10 days. Thanks. :)

The next seasonal theme would be Spring, i guess.  But then again, the other side of the world is heading into Winter.

It's the northern hemisphere seasons that people follow. Most of your customers come from Europe, US, Canada, Japan and Australia. ... so mostly north half.

Blender's UV mapping does a fine job too, and it's free. 

If you have Poser 10 or Poser Pro 2014 then you don't need UV mapper pro for mat zones and grouping, as the grouping tool does all that just fine and quickly.

Well, you can just release a product with promos and let the sites marketing team do their bit, but nothing stops you from starting a product thread to gain traction or add a promo vid showing the product in action. I have found that extra effort has really helped. People know before hand what is to come and it generates some hype instead of just being drawn to their attention when it is released in the stores. So yes, you do pay these sites to handle marketing for you, but nothing stops you from giving your work more exposure. That does require more effort, but that is strictly up to you if you feel it is worth it or not.

Exactly. If you're already a top vendor with a big reputation who got his/her foot in the door a decade or more ago, you CAN let the brokerage do all the work for you. But if you're just starting out, you're competing within your brokerage with all those top names.

I've read the Daz forums, where vendors complain that almost all of their sales come in the first couple of weeks, with very little after. Even Daz admins themselves admitted that they had a problem generating back catalog sales.

Daz is probably the best brokerage for its vendors, but it will only do so much. And one thing that it's shockingly bad at is helping customers FIND the stuff they want. Shopping there is sometimes like walking into a huge box store, where half the products are in the back room. I don't know how much time vendors spend looking for products, but it's probably far, far less time than I spend. And my experience is that it's really hard to find things. So those vendors who take the time (5 to 30 minutes) to create really good product descriptions will get more sales in their back catalogs than those who don't. People pooh-pooh the descriptions, but once you're off the front page, they're the only way a customer will find your product -- unless you're highlighted in a sale. And really while sales are nice, you make more money when you're not selling your entire catalog at 50% off. My post about descriptions and keywords was meant to address this issue.

Sure, you can make money from front page sales, always running on a treadmill, trying to push out product fast enough to keep in the limelight. But if spending a couple of hours a week on self-promotion helps you sell more, why is it any less valuable than pumping out more product? Aside from that, people spend inordinate amounts of time piddling around on the internet -- me and everyone in this thread is doing it right now, and I don't want to think about how much time some people waste on Facebook -- why not make that time work FOR you instead of against you by developing a promotion strategy that uses your internet time more efficiently for your benefit.

Moreover, if you have a smart phone, you can work on marketing anywhere -- public transportation, waiting at the doctor's office, when you first wake up and are fuzzy headedly drinking that first cup of coffee, while visiting your in-laws. You can't model or rig or texture on your smartphone. But you CAN sell.

When I first started out creating the site from which I sold jewelry, it took A LOT of work to get it going. Months of work. (I didn't have a brokerage to drive sales to my door). But once my site ranked number one for the keywords I wanted, I got people all over the world making orders. After the initial work, I barely touched that aspect of it, and hundreds of these random people just kept buying, for YEARS after. 

A Poser content vendor wouldn't need to spend nearly the same amount of effort that I did because the brokerages herd the customers to the website. But an initial investment of time, with a few hours here and there to top it off, might well make a sizable difference. 

I'm tempted to take a vendor I really like and do as much of this stuff as I could for him/her. He/she wouldn't even have to know I was doing it. It'd be interesting to see if it pushed them into a top sales category. :D :D

Anyway, let me stress this: I KNOW vendors work hard, really hard. And I also know that we customers are the beneficiaries of a pricing scheme that gives us really amazingly good content at shockingly low prices. Believe me, I appreciate that. Without the vendors, I wouldn't be able to render very much interesting stuff. I NEED you guys. And I want you guys to keep making stuff, so it's in my interest for you to get paid as much as you can.

If your current strategy works for you, by all means -- don't change it!

And of course you're right BadKittehCo -- you can't sell product that you've haven't finished making! :) Clearly, "make good quality products" is the first commandment. Some people are so inherently conscientious that doing that will take up all their time. I get that. But if you're not a vendor yet, and this is still a hobby, THEN it might well help to consider how you can use marketing to your advantage because the competition is deadly fierce. The fact that you and Stefan and Male3Media and Glitterati and Zev0 posted in this thread proves the last part, at least.

This seems more customer opinion-oriented than actual vendor advice and in the scope of starting to vendor not very helpful. If you were a vendor, you would actually know that those "artistic renders" sell far more product than standard, plain shots of geometry. It's always helpful to include a few plain shots, however that's not what draws the majority of the customers in and brokerages will reject products until you provide flashier promos to make the product more appealing. Also the vendor may had made those renders as part of the promos and those promos get rejected before they are put in the store. As I said earlier, these are the kinds of suggestions that end up costing sales, when people give advice that don't have the background to do so. 

I gave standard marketing and business advice as it applies to a narrow set of examples.
I am well aware of the positive effects of sultry promo pics. I choose not to mention that because it's basically redundant advice for those selling products that could have such promo shots. Do I really need to tell vendors of revealing clothing or long hair to include a boob-shot or three to add some titillation-factor to their marketing images? My focus was intended to present basic and intelligent business and marketing principles, using a few examples of what "not to do." It was also directed at those who seem to believe that they will be able to generate appreciable income from content sales without an appreciable amount of professional effort being demonstrated in the creation of their products.

My background and experience is more than adequate to comment intelligently on this topic, regardless of the medium or market. I am sorry that my lack of a fixation on "boob shots" in my offered advice is something that you believe demonstrates a lack of adequate experience. If you will note, I did include the mention of appropriate renders and the necessity of a demonstrated skill with the rendering engine of the product being targeted by the vendor. My disagreement with the policy of "boob shot Vickies" concerns the use of poorly rendered and irrationally focused primary promo pics that offer confusing presentations of the product to the point where the potential buyer has little idea of what the product actually is. This is a fine tactic when selling perfume, life-insurance, cell-phones or other intangible products. But, it is not a good general marketing policy when selling "tangible" products.

(For the purposes of argument, we can consider geometry and other "visible" products as tangible. Scripts, for example, could be considered somewhat intangible. However, it's worth noting that the top script producers intelligently represent their products as scripts or utilities and have done so with such style and consistency that the presentation of their marketing materials act as much as to solidify the performance of their "brand" as the products, themselves.)

Edit-Add: I also must question your own credibility when you claim that, as quoted, my insistence on such things as using appropriate grammar, good geometry, providing unique items that are actually unique and other common-sense principles somehow, according to you, demonstrates a lack of experience or relevance to potential vendors in this market. With all respect, and I sincerely mean that, your suggestion that my advice is not worthy seems fairly incredible.

I would also like to add that this particular marketplace appears to be more relaxed in the sort of content offered for sale. Frankly, the increase of favoring more sexualized and suggestive products does drive away a certain segment of the market. I am not a "prude" nor am I one of "those people" who rail against sexualized Vickies.(IIRC, there was a huge stink about that, years ago.) It's common knowledge that the widest use of Poser is for personal porn. That's fine and I have no issue with that. However, perceptions are important and the more a marketplace appears to intentionally cater to such a client-base, the less professional and polished it appears to new consumers who may not be seeking such products. For producers of sexualized/suggestive content, this may be a non-issue and may even be preferred. But, for producers of other sorts of content, this could be a very concerning issue. Those latter sorts of producers demand a marketplace that suits their product and that draws their particular client-base. It's also those latter sorts of professional producers that are responsible for the most innovation and the most dramatic, paradigm-shifting*, products in the market.

*My apologies for using the phrase "paradigm-shifting." But, it couldn't be helped... :)

This seems more customer opinion-oriented than actual vendor advice and in the scope of starting to vendor not very helpful. If you were a vendor, you would actually know that those "artistic renders" sell far more product than standard, plain shots of geometry. It's always helpful to include a few plain shots, however that's not what draws the majority of the customers in and brokerages will reject products until you provide flashier promos to make the product more appealing. Also the vendor may had made those renders as part of the promos and those promos get rejected before they are put in the store. As I said earlier, these are the kinds of suggestions that end up costing sales, when people give advice that don't have the background to do so. 

I gave standard marketing and business advice as it applies to a narrow set of examples.
I am well aware of the positive effects of sultry promo pics. I choose not to mention that because it's basically redundant advice for those selling products that could have such promo shots. Do I really need to tell vendors of revealing clothing or long hair to include a boob-shot or three to add some titillation-factor to their marketing images? My focus was intended to present basic and intelligent business and marketing principles, using a few examples of what "not to do." It was also directed at those who seem to believe that they will be able to generate appreciable income from content sales without an appreciable amount of professional effort being demonstrated in the creation of their products.

My background and experience is more than adequate to comment intelligently on this topic, regardless of the medium or market. I am sorry that my lack of a fixation on "boob shots" in my offered advice is something that you believe demonstrates a lack of adequate experience. If you will note, I did include the mention of appropriate renders and the necessity of a demonstrated skill with the rendering engine of the product being targeted by the vendor. My disagreement with the policy of "boob shot Vickies" concerns the use of poorly rendered and irrationally focused primary promo pics that offer confusing presentations of the product to the point where the potential buyer has little idea of what the product actually is. This is a fine tactic when selling perfume, life-insurance, cell-phones or other intangible products. But, it is not a good general marketing policy when selling "tangible" products.

(For the purposes of argument, we can consider geometry and other "visible" products as tangible. Scripts, for example, could be considered somewhat intangible. However, it's worth noting that the top script producers intelligently represent their products as scripts or utilities and have done so with such style and consistency that the presentation of their marketing materials act as much as to solidify the performance of their "brand" as the products, themselves.)

I would also like to add that this particular marketplace appears to be more relaxed in the sort of content offered for sale. Frankly, the increase of favoring more sexualized and suggestive products does drive away a certain segment of the market. I am not a "prude" nor am I one of "those people" who rail against sexualized Vickies.(IIRC, there was a huge stink about that, years ago.) It's common knowledge that the widest use of Poser is for personal porn. That's fine and I have no issue with that. However, perceptions are important and the more a marketplace appears to intentionally cater to such a client-base, the less professional and polished it appears to new consumers who may not be seeking such products. For producers of sexualized/suggestive content, this may be a non-issue and may even be preferred. But, for producers of other sorts of content, this could be a very concerning issue. Those latter sorts of producers demand a marketplace that suits their product and that draws their particular client-base. It's also those latter sorts of professional producers that are responsible for the most innovation and the most dramatic, paradigm-shifting*, products in the market.

*My apologies for using the phrase "paradigm-shifting." But, it couldn't be helped... :)

Yes I'm sure you believe what you said is solid advice for other market segments. However, my response is based on what actually sells in this market and the fact that following your advice on how promos should be set up will result in lower sales for that vendor (if the Broker doesn't reject the promos out right because it doesn't catch the marketplace's attention) not because I think it would happen, it's because repeatedly happens. As you said, know your market and it helps to actually sell in that market so that you actually understand who your customers are rather than attempting to apply strategies from other segments to this one that would not work.

Interesting debate this, though theres another option which isn't mentioned that often. Especially if someone can't model/texture, or just wants a minutes of internet fame. Become a "brand" and buy in content. By that I don't mean reselling or getting stuff from pirate sites, but literally paying other artists to make stuff for you. Which you can then legally sell/give away under your own name, own all the rights etc. Also handy if you want to test the selling waters etc, or learn what collabrative working is all about. It's a service that many 3d studios now offer at affordable prices, so doing it can help other artists/creators out. OK sure some folks do consider this as a form of 'dark arts'. But after 10 years of content creation, including a few commission pieces, I know quite a few folks who do this. If nothing else it's certainly fasinating to see the reactions of others all because theres a different name on something or even where it's being sold somehow sells better stuff.

Anyway, let me stress this: I KNOW vendors work hard, really hard. And I also know that we customers are the beneficiaries of 

And of course you're right BadKittehCo -- you can't sell product that you've haven't finished making! :) Clearly, "make good quality products" is the first commandment. Some people are so inherently conscientious that doing that will take up all their time. I get that. But if you're not a vendor yet, and this is still a hobby, THEN it might well help to consider how you can use marketing to your advantage because the competition is deadly fierce. The fact that you and Stefan and Male3Media and Glitterati and Zev0 posted in this thread proves the last part, at least.

Honestly, the best way to deal with competition is to have a better product. (in a way of quality and what is interesting to people - which is a form of quality)  The biggest reason I do some of the hands on marketing is for market research. Gage some of the ideas to see who responds to them and in what manner. I even use warez sites or market research. If noone has warezed your stuff, in a way it means people don't care for it much, even for free. Anyone with intereating and quality content in this market gets noticed fast, by brokerages and customers. Huge percentage of theis market is impulse buyers. Which is, interestingly a bit different then TS and couple of other 3d stores. TS tends to be more focused on need based buyers. There are historical brokerage marketing strategy reasons for this, but that's another thread branch.

I meant to add to my last post.... one of the reasons I keep pulling on the brakes about marketing on your own a lot with hopes it will increase sales is because of this...

I had products that had agreat response on social media or in the forums, and didn't sell all that well, and the other way around. Also, not hitting the social media on certain products didn't make or break them, or even showed any noticeable blip in sales.

At first it seems counter intuitive, you would think that people who actively participate in the forums and on social media are a good statistical representation of your customers, but time and time again it turned out that this is not the case.

I had products that had 'huge' forum following.... 30-40 people in the forum can be huge. Then it hots the market, and you realize that you encountered a pocket of vociferous enthusiasts, and the marketat large ... does not exist. So... it can be a bit tricky, interpreting social media reactions. What peopke will look at or talk about, vs what they will buy are often not the same thing.

It's easy to get a following of non-buyers and spend significant time interacting with them.

At the same time there are smaller things a vendor can do to maximize their exposure. I do them even though I can never correlate them to tangibe influebce on sales... and being an engineer and no stranger to a variety of statistical analisys, i'm pretty decent at noticing and interpreting what affects my sales and what doesn't.

BadKittehCo Wrote:
"Honestly, the best way to deal with competition is to have a better product."

I happen to agree, I think it really is that simple.
Well, that and being good at creating a spin around your product.

I'm tempted to take a vendor I really like and do as much of this stuff as I could for him/her. He/she wouldn't even have to know I was doing it. It'd be interesting to see if it pushed them into a top sales category. :D :D

It doesn't. I've had skilled peopke do it for me, and i've gone through periods of not doing it at all, and diong it myself (i have decent marketing skilks and some marketing education too) and i can't quantify a difference. Things that make a dfference are

• product placement (make sure it appeals to enough people to be worth buying)

• product quality

• brokerage traffic where you sell. (No individual vendor or a small group can make even a tenth of the traffic a whole brokerage like DAZ or Rendo can) You're talking about a size difference of almost a lemonade stand vs. Starbucks.  With brokerages that let you see customer names or nicknames, you see very few people that you see on social media. Less then 10%.  I'm yet to see individual vendors affect brokerage traffic... well i've seen AeonSoul affect RDNA traffic on occasion by 10-20% for a day or so, and I think I've seen stonemason have some impact on DAZ traffic on occasion.  What seems to draw the buying crowd are sales, special events, themed 'oooh shiny' type group releases... storewide events.

• great catchy store promos.

• your long term reputation with respect to product quality and usability. lot of 'top vendors' fall into collectibe content category, you want it because they made it, and you hought it before you were sure if you need it or will ever use it.  This takes time to build... and... if one starts vendoring too soon and doesnt get known for really good stuff can be even harder to builD. Reputations (branding, really) are much harder reversed then built well from scratch.

-this market IS very impulse buy driven, many vendors are not too crazy about it, and have tried to play a different game. They haven't been able to reverse it. Even brokerages that created this don't really have the resources to reverse it any time soon. If they did, it would be a several year process.

• to make a living out of this, do the math... if it takes you a month to make a product (including promos, qa, documentation and marketing), and it sells for 19.95, brokerage takes 50%...  you need to sell 400 pieces to make $4000.  That translates into about $20 per hour.  Usually, you amortize that over a year.  This will put you in top vendor category If you do it each month.

I tried to list these in order of importance... although, i'm still writing it out of my head as a cadual forum post rather then a well thought out paper.

Off topic here.  Connie, if you are the same Connie that I follow on FB, wow, you have talent in all aspects of art.  I love your stuff.  Ok, back to discussion.

Off topic here.  Connie, if you are the same Connie that I follow on FB, wow, you have talent in all aspects of art.  I love your stuff.  Ok, back to discussion.

Yes, same Connie :-)   ...well, I think so, here's a link to double check. There is also a Bad Kitteh page :-). https://www.facebook.com/ConnieKat8?fref=photo

And, awwwwww, tank you so much blushing

You ARE the same Connie and you are more than welcome.  We have some gifted artists here!

mrsparky quote Interesting debate this, though theres another option which isn't mentioned that often. Especially if someone can't model/texture, or just wants a minutes of internet fame. Become a "brand" and buy in content. By that I don't mean reselling or getting stuff from pirate sites, but literally paying other artists to make stuff for you. Which you can then legally sell/give away under your own name, own all the rights etc. Also handy if you want to test the selling waters etc, or learn what collabrative working is all about. It's a service that many 3d studios now offer at affordable prices, so doing it can help other artists/creators out. OK sure some folks do consider this as a form of 'dark arts'. But after 10 years of content creation, including a few commission pieces, I know quite a few folks who do this. If nothing else it's certainly fasinating to see the reactions of others all because theres a different name on something or even where it's being sold somehow sells better stuff.

Ya know I can see that working at turbo but at DAZ Poser for fame sure but I never really saw a profit as a vender to start with .
so don't know if I would be willing to gamble on spending money for DAZ Poser content.
really the only reason I could see being a DAZ Poser vender was to sharpen ya skills , for fame,for fun . anyways never saw any $$$ in it. 
Ya would make more $$$ selling stale fries at mickyD's then ya would buy being a DAZ Poser vender. 
At DAZ Poser I always thought making the merchandise was the easy part. especially with 2015 3D App's it ant nothing to make meshes compared to 1998.

ya half to make it all work so perfectly so ya could click n render.
but should I make it for DAZ or Poser should it be for poser 4 or 14 should it be for V4 or V6 .what about Roxie and Dawn.
is it worth it to make all those morphs fit perfectly.wich some where ya missed that one morph that will get posted and ya names dirt.etc etc.a lot of time spent there.
ya stuff has 100 morphs to fit 4 characters but that one characters paris morph didn't work perfectly. so ya stuffs trash.
this is the part I could never get past .cause I knew I didn't half to do deal with any of it with C4D, Max etc etc.

and I knew I was a no name so can I get my stuff in the email,every email ? what's it cost ?
Should I partner with a big name just to use there known name ? what's it cost ?

99.9% of my profits will be first week form the emails and the stores posting my stuff for every one to see.
So I sell 20 outfits and 200 gets pirated.
what if a pirates having trouble with my content ?should I help them ?they might actually buy something someday so ....

@BadKittehCo -- Nice post! I'm sure vendors-to-be appreciate it.

I see your point. I guess what I'm getting at is an attempt to widen the market beyond the typical Poser/Daz customer. There are corporate and business customers who are shopping at Turbosquid, for example, and just need a little nudge to see what content creators have to offer from this community at less than a tenth of the price. Sure Poser obj's are scaled incorrectly for the apps they're probably using, but that's hardly a barrier. These guys aren't going to be interested in browsing through "what's hot"; nor are they going to be going crazy waiting for a 17% discount coupon. What they will want is to be able to find what they're looking for very quickly. Having products actually show up as one of the first few search results when you search for 3d assets would capture this group. But at the moment, Poser content is all but invisible, EVEN if you search specifically for Poser stuff. The idea behind social media isn't to drive sales directly. I don't think anyone, including big brands like Nike, has figured out how to do that. The idea is to use the link and like juice to drive hits and search engine ranking. AND to let those customers who won't spend a cent, but will happily rave with great enthusiasm, do much of the work for you. In addition to those business customers, there are all the people who don't yet know that what they need most in life is another addiction. In my experience, most people have never heard of Poser or Daz Studio. And many of those who have think it's all about plastic looking people in stiff poses showing off improbable boobs. For all Daz's external marketing, this community is still very insular.

Anyway, absolutely, most sales come from impulse purchases. But is that because that's just the way it is -- or is it at least partly a result of the fact that 9 times out of 10, people who are looking for specific things can't find them -- so of course those sales are lost (forever, or until they stumble on the thing they want during a sale), and it looks like the only people who buy stuff do so on impulse. 

Anyway, just trying to think outside the box, as it were.

@MrSparky -- Very intriguing idea. Content creator gets a chunk of cash up front, and vendor tries to recoup the investment. What are people charging typically? $500, $1000, $4000? 

I hear you. I don't know, I used to be one of those 'business customers' for number of years before making Poser content, as I did architectural and engineering Viz.

I never found useful stuff in poserdom, not because it was hard to find, but because things I needed were super specific, noring every day things.... and because often times, when you are on the clock, efficiency was paramount. At the time I was billed at $120 an hour... if it took me 2-3 hours to convert a single piece of content, I made it cost $360, rather then $12 I actually paid for... so what we would do is buy large packages of models made specifically for arch viz... yes they would cost a few hundred to 1000 per package, but i could plop them into the scene in a matter of minutes. On occasion I bought specific items on turbosquid.

It is possible other 3d users have different needs.

Another thing, even with DAZ, merely opening the website and being bombarded with even somewhat sexually suggestive stuff... well, in stuffy engineering offices that would have easily fall into possible sexual harrasement. Last time I dealt with that is around 2006. I don't know how much has changed since then.

Bringing new users would be great, snd I've seen many discussions about it over the years. Often it comes down to needing big bucks. And in last few years, we have game engines and proliferation of 3d for printing. Seems like Poser and DS are losing ground. One part of it being the learning curve to get into the hobby.

It would be interesting to see some brokerage statistics and market research to see results of current efforts to bring in new users, and come up with some strategies... not being privy to that, I can only guesstimate and speculate.... but, jut like vendoring has peculiarities that seem illogical on the surface, i'm sure briging new users has that too. Beyond grassroots efforts, I'm not sure how I would approach that.  If I did, I'd be applying for Steve Cooper's job.

As a yet to be vendor, this is all a dark art. Only a few appear to be able to make a living at this but overall the 3D graphics market seems to be increasing. I have heard some vendors say that they now have no time to spend playing with the stuff because all their time is spent making product. Not for me.

The only reason I would be prepared to settle for a low income is if I enjoyed doing it. I take on board everything mentioned about being a 'professional', although I'm not sure I want to put in the hours. I do think that I could come up with something once a month though. Thinking about it, I put in huge hours lol. You just don't notice it when you are having fun ! Anyway as the saying goes - nothing ventured nothing gained.

I do need help in a number of different areas, but it looks like you have to submit a product before you can get access to the vendor community.

also need to allot time to tech support the products.

@BadKittehCo -- Nice post! I'm sure vendors-to-be appreciate it.

I see your point. I guess what I'm getting at is an attempt to widen the market beyond the typical Poser/Daz customer. There are corporate and business customers who are shopping at Turbosquid, for example, and just need a little nudge to see what content creators have to offer from this community at less than a tenth of the price. Sure Poser obj's are scaled incorrectly for the apps they're probably using, but that's hardly a barrier. These guys aren't going to be interested in browsing through "what's hot"; nor are they going to be going crazy waiting for a 17% discount coupon. What they will want is to be able to find what they're looking for very quickly. Having products actually show up as one of the first few search results when you search for 3d assets would capture this group. But at the moment, Poser content is all but invisible, EVEN if you search specifically for Poser stuff. The idea behind social media isn't to drive sales directly. I don't think anyone, including big brands like Nike, has figured out how to do that. The idea is to use the link and like juice to drive hits and search engine ranking. AND to let those customers who won't spend a cent, but will happily rave with great enthusiasm, do much of the work for you. In addition to those business customers, there are all the people who don't yet know that what they need most in life is another addiction. In my experience, most people have never heard of Poser or Daz Studio. And many of those who have think it's all about plastic looking people in stiff poses showing off improbable boobs. For all Daz's external marketing, this community is still very insular.

Anyway, absolutely, most sales come from impulse purchases. But is that because that's just the way it is -- or is it at least partly a result of the fact that 9 times out of 10, people who are looking for specific things can't find them -- so of course those sales are lost (forever, or until they stumble on the thing they want during a sale), and it looks like the only people who buy stuff do so on impulse. 

Anyway, just trying to think outside the box, as it were.

---

@MrSparky -- Very intriguing idea. Content creator gets a chunk of cash up front, and vendor tries to recoup the investment. What are people charging typically? $500, $1000, $4000? 

luv those coupons. 

As a yet to be vendor, this is all a dark art. Only a few appear to be able to make a living at this but overall the 3D graphics market seems to be increasing. I have heard some vendors say that they now have no time to spend playing with the stuff because all their time is spent making product. Not for me.

The only reason I would be prepared to settle for a low income is if I enjoyed doing it. I take on board everything mentioned about being a 'professional', although I'm not sure I want to put in the hours. I do think that I could come up with something once a month though. Thinking about it, I put in huge hours lol. You just don't notice it when you are having fun ! Anyway as the saying goes - nothing ventured nothing gained.

I do need help in a number of different areas, but it looks like you have to submit a product before you can get access to the vendor community.

Find vendors who need beta testers and assistnce with things.It's a good way to learn. You give some, they give some. What kind of stuff do you need help with?

As a yet to be vendor, this is all a dark art. Only a few appear to be able to make a living at this but overall the 3D graphics market seems to be increasing. I have heard some vendors say that they now have no time to spend playing with the stuff because all their time is spent making product. Not for me.

The only reason I would be prepared to settle for a low income is if I enjoyed doing it. I take on board everything mentioned about being a 'professional', although I'm not sure I want to put in the hours. I do think that I could come up with something once a month though. Thinking about it, I put in huge hours lol. You just don't notice it when you are having fun ! Anyway as the saying goes - nothing ventured nothing gained.

I do need help in a number of different areas, but it looks like you have to submit a product before you can get access to the vendor community.

Do what most people do when they first start modeling and do freebies for the community.

I've done freebies. I don't get feedback. "Wow, that's good" comments are nice but unhelpful. I've spent years honing my skills, so I think I'm now ready.

Connie - checked out your stuff. Awesome ! Very high quality. I'm not an impulse buyer, indeed I hardly buy anything but when I get my act together I'm going to need to buy lots more.

So what do I need now. OK, first thing is I need to figure out is how to produce appropriate injection files. My figures are very heavily morphed. Nothing like V4 really.  Eye scaling and position is very important and cannot be done with dials.

I am going to need to figure out how to adapt pre-existing textures as I currently use my own. Well that's just down to me to figure out.

Promo Images. Obviously very important. I am working on how best to light at the moment. I am pretty good at using Photoshop, but where do you get the fancy lettering and patterns you use in the promos ?

Thanks for all your help :)

I've always had the attitude if ya have a problem with nudity ,violence, or what ever then ya don't need to be around Artist. Dang sure don't need to be in my studio.

If anyone cryed about todays email I'd just tell them there fired http://www.renderosity.com/mod/emarket/read/3942/339078/ I can't find the add but there was a big todo over a sexy add at CGTalk one time .no nudity or anything.this email reminded me about it.

oh and your see hot n sex in the public mall every time ya walk buy victoria secrets

 -------

EClark1894 is always posting his stuff on the forums. qaz ya could post your stuff on the forums and ask for feedback.

 MistyLaraPrincess : different app's are better / faster at different things.

I know the rule is try all the demos but I watch the demo's youtubes etc etc .to try n see if a demo is justified.

Modo had a reputation for being a very fast modeler. and if I'm not wrong is what V5,6 was updated in.

a poser content creator would need a fast modeler, mapper, texturer ,normal and or displacement maps, vector maps & mirrored morpher. 

might have forgotten something but I'd cheak n make sure Modo has them all fast. 

 oh if ya ever thought about being a turbo or games vender probably best if ya have Max 

Yes I'm sure you believe what you said is solid advice for other market segments. However, my response is based on what actually sells in this market and the fact that following your advice on how promos should be set up will result in lower sales for that vendor (if the Broker doesn't reject the promos out right because it doesn't catch the marketplace's attention) not because I think it would happen, it's because repeatedly happens. As you said, know your market and it helps to actually sell in that market so that you actually understand who your customers are rather than attempting to apply strategies from other segments to this one that would not work.

You're missing the point. You're only addressing one small part of my post, to the exclusion of everything else that was there. Boob shots are fine, even sultry shots for unrelated products are fine. BUT, you must communicate more than just "boobs" in a good promo shot. If you don't, you're setting yourself up to have your product regarded as just another "boob shot" and what does that mean? It'll be skipped over for a better boob shot, with little regard for the product you've actually produced. There is more to marketing any item, more to creating demand, more to establishing a brand recognition amongst consumer than "boob shot promos." You do not seem to wish to admit that and, if you refuse it, what then can be said about your implied contribution towards helping vendors increase their sales? Is that the extent of your advice? Are boob-shots all that matter? Grammar isn't important? Quality isn't important? Evidenced skill of construction and desirability from the standpoint of a targeted market isn't important? Yet, you ignore these sorts of things that I mentioned, choosing to focus instead on my comments regarding absurd boob shot promos... It's... mind boggling.

I want vendors to succeed. Can they succeed with boob shot promos? Sure, for awhile. But, once a buyer finds substandard quality or discovers that the item they purchased isn't what they though it would be, then that is not just a future customer that is lost, that is a customer who will actively dislike the brand, perhaps even encouraging others to go elsewhere. Eventually, customers will realize that their money isn't expended in buying the promo pic, it's for what's behind it. Customers aren't stupid, especially the good ones who have the money to fuel their desire to purchase e-products.

Marketing and product quality is a holistic beast, requiring the producer to address a full spectrum approach if they wish to maximize their opportunities and their returns. Sultry promos and boob shots should be used to attract attention to the product and enhance the image of a product in the customer's mind, not to replace it.

I hear you. I don't know, I used to be one of those 'business customers' for number of years before making Poser content, as I did architectural and engineering Viz.

I never found useful stuff in poserdom, not because it was hard to find, but because things I needed were super specific, noring every day things.... and because often times, when you are on the clock, efficiency was paramount. At the time I was billed at $120 an hour... if it took me 2-3 hours to convert a single piece of content, I made it cost $360, rather then $12 I actually paid for... so what we would do is buy large packages of models made specifically for arch viz... yes they would cost a few hundred to 1000 per package, but i could plop them into the scene in a matter of minutes. On occasion I bought specific items on turbosquid.

It is possible other 3d users have different needs.

Another thing, even with DAZ, merely opening the website and being bombarded with even somewhat sexually suggestive stuff... well, in stuffy engineering offices that would have easily fall into possible sexual harrasement. Last time I dealt with that is around 2006. I don't know how much has changed since then.

Bringing new users would be great, snd I've seen many discussions about it over the years. Often it comes down to needing big bucks. And in last few years, we have game engines and proliferation of 3d for printing. Seems like Poser and DS are losing ground. One part of it being the learning curve to get into the hobby.

It would be interesting to see some brokerage statistics and market research to see results of current efforts to bring in new users, and come up with some strategies... not being privy to that, I can only guesstimate and speculate.... but, jut like vendoring has peculiarities that seem illogical on the surface, i'm sure briging new users has that too. Beyond grassroots efforts, I'm not sure how I would approach that.  If I did, I'd be applying for Steve Cooper's job.

You might indeed do very well in Steve Cooper's former position. But I expect it involves a boat load of stress, and while being a content vendor has its own stresses, as you've described, there must be something to being able to step out of the corporate rat race. :) <--- Please don't disabuse us of this notion; we like to fantasize. :D Sexually suggestive websites... Oh, I forgot about that. I expect it's actually gotten more restrictive since 2006. I wondered why Daz and Rendo were so keen on updating their sites for mobile devices when the overall sales figures for the web demonstrate that mobile visits don't convert into sales nearly as often as desktop visits. People are still browsing on their phones, but buying on their desktops. And this is one industry in which you can guarantee that buyers own either a desktop or a fairly powerful laptop. I guess, though, if you want to browse the Poser content sites at work... better do it incognito, on your phone. Hell, even at home you might not want the site to show up on your monitor while you shop for morphs, lest you risk your kid asking, "Daddy, why is mommy looking at naked people?" :D (If you're a clothing vendor with kids, I'd think they're used to seeing a grey naked Vicki showing up in a modelling app -- but it's not necessarily the case for every customer. LOL.)

@Morkonan -- I agree with much of what you say. But I don't think grammar is all that important, as long as the message is intelligible. At least, it's not important for me. But then I guess I'm used to talking to people who are not native English speakers. I also don't insist that a vendor show their ability to make good renders. Many vendors get someone else to do the promo renders. Many don't even use Poser at all. Does not make their products any less fantastic. But I agree that great renders -- in Poser -- are extremely helpful, and the more, the better.

As for gratuitous boob shots -- well, I'm not sure how well they work on women, gay men, and kids. Unless I'm specifically shopping for sexy stuff, they tend to turn me off a product. After a while, I just start rolling my eyes and clicking away. I guess, if you use the boob as your main marketing strategy, you're targeting mostly the horny teen boy (and a few horny teen girls). Unfortunately, that group is not known for the enormity of its disposable income. Not a bad group to market to if you're selling one $60 video game every four years to millions of horny teens. But if you need your loyal customers to buy just about everything you release, they might not be as reliable as say, retired people, who seem to make up quite a sizable portion of the userbase. Not saying retired people don't appreciate boobs. Surely they do! But boobs alone won't sell a product to someone unless their hormones are raging so hard that they can't think straight. :)

I've done freebies. I don't get feedback. "Wow, that's good" comments are nice but unhelpful. I've spent years honing my skills, so I think I'm now ready.

Connie - checked out your stuff. Awesome ! Very high quality. I'm not an impulse buyer, indeed I hardly buy anything but when I get my act together I'm going to need to buy lots more.

So what do I need now. OK, first thing is I need to figure out is how to produce appropriate injection files. My figures are very heavily morphed. Nothing like V4 really.  Eye scaling and position is very important and cannot be done with dials.

I am going to need to figure out how to adapt pre-existing textures as I currently use my own. Well that's just down to me to figure out.

Promo Images. Obviously very important. I am working on how best to light at the moment. I am pretty good at using Photoshop, but where do you get the fancy lettering and patterns you use in the promos ?

Thanks for all your help :)

ok, for rigging and poser details, Nerd 3D has loads and loads of invaluable information. Most of what I learned is by sticking my head up his arse and begging!  You can see he has a lot of published info here: http://www.nerd3d.com/

Another thing I find invaluable are Dimension3D's poser tools. Poser File editor in particular. I would die without it: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/poser-file-editor-3/62322/     D3D has few other amazing tools, here at Rendo and at DAZ (for DS/Genesis content)

I'm not sure what you mean by adapting pre existing textures? For characters, if you use pre existing, make sure they are licensed as 'merchant resource', or photographs meant for texturing, like what you can get from www.3d.sk. You can't take other textured characters and tweak the images (for freebies or for store items). For your own personal use, you can of course do whatever you want.  Promo images are very important of course, spending some time learning how to make a cool catchy render is smart. Look at advertising outside poserdom, fashion, movies, games... whatever may be somewhat similar to the content you are making, That is a learning curve of it's own. Whenever you can afford, hire a promo artist. I do it about half the times, especially for the main promo. You get only a second or two for the buyer to fall in love with your product - it is only after that they most will bother to read techy details - especially until you develop a following and a name recognition. And, well, you have to make sure that the product stands up to the promos, or people will feel like they've been cheated... and poser users can be very vociferous when they don't like something.

Fancy lettering - first, don't overdo it, learn a bit about graphics design and visual hierarchy of things so you don't assault the customer with everything at once and they run off with a visual migraine. ok, ok, i'm exaggerating a bit....   lot of little designs are a combo between layer effects, and whatever fonts you can find out there on the internet, there are tons out there free or for pay (check EULA's on everything, make sure you are allowed to use it in a way you want to use it.) You dont want to get in a hot water copyright wise, not only because of the other party, but if it happens more often, the brokerage starts being nervous about taking your product. Usually when there is a copyright violation they are the first to get the notice.

. . . the first thing you need to do to make money in 3d is to choose a business that has nothing to do with 3d.

I hear you. I don't know, I used to be one of those 'business customers' for number of years before making Poser content, as I did architectural and engineering Viz.

I never found useful stuff in poserdom, not because it was hard to find, but because things I needed were super specific, noring every day things.... and because often times, when you are on the clock, efficiency was paramount. At the time I was billed at $120 an hour... if it took me 2-3 hours to convert a single piece of content, I made it cost $360, rather then $12 I actually paid for... so what we would do is buy large packages of models made specifically for arch viz... yes they would cost a few hundred to 1000 per package, but i could plop them into the scene in a matter of minutes. On occasion I bought specific items on turbosquid.

It is possible other 3d users have different needs.

Another thing, even with DAZ, merely opening the website and being bombarded with even somewhat sexually suggestive stuff... well, in stuffy engineering offices that would have easily fall into possible sexual harrasement. Last time I dealt with that is around 2006. I don't know how much has changed since then.

Bringing new users would be great, snd I've seen many discussions about it over the years. Often it comes down to needing big bucks. And in last few years, we have game engines and proliferation of 3d for printing. Seems like Poser and DS are losing ground. One part of it being the learning curve to get into the hobby.

It would be interesting to see some brokerage statistics and market research to see results of current efforts to bring in new users, and come up with some strategies... not being privy to that, I can only guesstimate and speculate.... but, jut like vendoring has peculiarities that seem illogical on the surface, i'm sure briging new users has that too. Beyond grassroots efforts, I'm not sure how I would approach that.  If I did, I'd be applying for Steve Cooper's job.

You might indeed do very well in Steve Cooper's former position. But I expect it involves a boat load of stress, and while being a content vendor has its own stresses, as you've described, there must be something to being able to step out of the corporate rat race. :) <--- Please don't disabuse us of this notion; we like to fantasize. :D Sexually suggestive websites... Oh, I forgot about that. I expect it's actually gotten more restrictive since 2006. I wondered why Daz and Rendo were so keen on updating their sites for mobile devices when the overall sales figures for the web demonstrate that mobile visits don't convert into sales nearly as often as desktop visits. People are still browsing on their phones, but buying on their desktops. And this is one industry in which you can guarantee that buyers own either a desktop or a fairly powerful laptop. I guess, though, if you want to browse the Poser content sites at work... better do it incognito, on your phone. Hell, even at home you might not want the site to show up on your monitor while you shop for morphs, lest you risk your kid asking, "Daddy, why is mommy looking at naked people?" :D (If you're a clothing vendor with kids, I'd think they're used to seeing a grey naked Vicki showing up in a modelling app -- but it's not necessarily the case for every customer. LOL.)

---

@Morkonan -- I agree with much of what you say. But I don't think grammar is all that important, as long as the message is intelligible. At least, it's not important for me. But then I guess I'm used to talking to people who are not native English speakers. I also don't insist that a vendor show their ability to make good renders. Many vendors get someone else to do the promo renders. Many don't even use Poser at all. Does not make their products any less fantastic. But I agree that great renders -- in Poser -- are extremely helpful, and the more, the better.

As for gratuitous boob shots -- well, I'm not sure how well they work on women, gay men, and kids. Unless I'm specifically shopping for sexy stuff, they tend to turn me off a product. After a while, I just start rolling my eyes and clicking away. I guess, if you use the boob as your main marketing strategy, you're targeting mostly the horny teen boy (and a few horny teen girls). Unfortunately, that group is not known for the enormity of its disposable income. Not a bad group to market to if you're selling one $60 video game every four years to millions of horny teens. But if you need your loyal customers to buy just about everything you release, they might not be as reliable as say, retired people, who seem to make up quite a sizable portion of the userbase. Not saying retired people don't appreciate boobs. Surely they do! But boobs alone won't sell a product to someone unless their hormones are raging so hard that they can't think straight. :)

Ha ha, I thought about Steve coopers Job for a minute, but I only have about 60-70% of the qualifications they need at best, and I'm not able to relocate (I think I'd have to divorce first), and my health can be a bit sketchy so I'm not the most reliable full time employee - which is another reason I got out of corporate world. And also, I went to art school full time, couple of years ago, and have couple years to go before I'm done. (even my content releases are part time for now - which is why I don't release more often).   Aaand ... I really like the content making and design aspect of things, what I really want to do is build up a small studio of content makers eventually. 
Yeah, at home I'm fine with sexually suggestive stuff. Work in engineering offices was, you know, when in Rome do as romans do... and then there is the fact I live in california, the overregulation capital of the world.... everything can be considered sexual harassment in the workplace, and then companies add a fat safety margin to the laws.   Now in art school, we're drawing nude people from life all day long, almost every day. Sometimes I barely register if the person in front of me is naked or not.

At home, my poor stepdaughter, when she was a teenager or in her early 20's would bring home her friends (and my office is in the den, just by the front door) and has to go... hm, yea, this is my step-mom, she draws naked people all day long... then she would blush in embarrassment and drag them off. She is 26 now, and moved in with her fiance now.

Clothing vendors and texturers even more so at times, instead of Hi, how is your day going sometimes you go, Hi, how many hours of staring up V4's crotch so far today?

{Bad Kitteh}  "  I really like the content making and design aspect of things, what I really want to do is build up a small studio of content makers eventually.  "

  Eh?  What do you mean by that?

Tunesy quote . . . the first thing you need to do to make money in 3d is to choose a business that has nothing to do with 3d.

Their seems to be a few $'s floating around wallstreet ;) 

moriador - in answer to your question theres no set figure, it all depends on things like the complexity of the project, time, often what both creator and artist think is a fair price.

Tunesy - now theres a general trusim there :)

RorrKonn - I can see how from reading the forums some folks might percive a lot of poser work is often about rendering porn masquerading under the name of art. But the reality is a good building set can sell equally well - or better - than a bit of skimpy clothing.

moriador - in answer to your question theres no set figure, it all depends on things like the complexity of the project, time, often what both creator and artist think is a fair price.

Tunesy - now theres a general trusim there :)

RorrKonn - I can see how from reading the forums some folks might percive a lot of poser work is often about rendering porn masquerading under the name of art. But the reality is a good building set can sell equally well - or better - than a bit of skimpy clothing.

I was wondering what the range of costs might be -- if you have any idea. I mean, obviously, if I wanted to buy a model of an apple that would not be as costly as, say, your ruined city. :) I understand that much will depend on the particular artist as well. If I were to do something like this, naturally I'd want to make a profit on the deal -- but at the same time, I strongly, strongly believe that artists should be properly compensated, which is why it'd probably be a bad business for me to go into. But I think a marketing model that takes a lot of the risk away from the creators and puts it onto the sellers might well be extremely beneficial to some. At the moment creators do almost all the work, assume almost all the risk, but hardly make close to almost all the money. To me that seems very unfair.

Obviously I won't go into any specfic things here, but as a typical example say a fully rigged up/textured car might set you say $500 to buy. Lets take the house keeping, like revisions build time as a given, as again that varies.
Now you're more than a little bit poorer, obviously you need your investment back and quickly. As my maths are cr*p :) lets say you set a selling price of $10. Thats not 50 copies you need to sell, but 100. Because you need to factor in the store cuts. 50% being the general average for most places and that covers them marketing your product, handling the customer service etc.
That can be achiveable in a month or two, however that assumes it will sell. Yes while having a good well made product and nice promos helps theres also a big element of luck involved.
Mostly you have to hope it'll be well received by your audience - I've spent 6 month plus on some stuff and (as an example here) because it's too unique it's tanked, other times I've knocked a quick freebie out in a day and been so popular the host has had to migrate my site to a faster rack.
[Note if you self sell thats also an extra cost, not just the techie costs but time to code it , promote it etc. The latter not being an easy task]
Theres also the question of will the site selling will be good with it's promotions. OK sure theres an valid argument ...more you sell, more exposure you'll get. Equally if a site releases loads of new products each day realistically how much they can promote just one person ?
So yes overall your point that ..."creators do almost all the work, assume almost all the risk, but hardly make close to almost all the money. To me that seems very unfair"... is correct a lot of the time.
Then again thats also common in the traditional art world and there you're you've got the complication of being up against those with limited talent but the cash to pay for shows, adverts etc. So why do creators do this, my feeling is it's about the love for the craft and sometimes we just need to make a few bucks to cover costs etc. It's not about making a living because thats not likely to happen for most sellers.

 mrsparky Quote

RorrKonn - I can see how from reading the forums some folks might percive a lot of poser work is often about rendering porn masquerading under the name of art.
But the reality is a good building set can sell equally well - or better - than a bit of skimpy clothing.

I'm a bit confused buy this post .but since when ,me not knowing what where talking about ever stopped me from having a conversation ;)

All I know is even if ya going to render a naked Vicky no matter if ya call it Art or porn think it's more interesting
if ya put her in a environment and not just in a empty white space.and at least some jewelry would be nice.

Sells ,ah ,I don't think it's what ya sell ,but I think the best Artist sells best.
Stone Masson ,Aeon Soul ,etc etc sell different stuff but I think there all big names because there killer Artist.
Why do we know Boris n Royo's name ? cause there killer Artist.

What makes a Killer Artist no matter the medium ? Answer that question ,The Realms are yours.

moriador - in answer to your question theres no set figure, it all depends on things like the complexity of the project, time, often what both creator and artist think is a fair price.

Tunesy - now theres a general trusim there :)

RorrKonn - I can see how from reading the forums some folks might percive a lot of poser work is often about rendering porn masquerading under the name of art. But the reality is a good building set can sell equally well - or better - than a bit of skimpy clothing.

I was wondering what the range of costs might be -- if you have any idea. I mean, obviously, if I wanted to buy a model of an apple that would not be as costly as, say, your ruined city. :) I understand that much will depend on the particular artist as well. If I were to do something like this, naturally I'd want to make a profit on the deal -- but at the same time, I strongly, strongly believe that artists should be properly compensated, which is why it'd probably be a bad business for me to go into. But I think a marketing model that takes a lot of the risk away from the creators and puts it onto the sellers might well be extremely beneficial to some. At the moment creators do almost all the work, assume almost all the risk, but hardly make close to almost all the money. To me that seems very unfair.

Yes, content makers are definitely near the bottom of the food chain.
I'm not sure where one can find an affordable content maker that is not already working with the store? I tried with various modelers you can find 'out there in the world of 3D, and frankly, most are not affordable, even if you farm things out of the country. Maybe I'm looking on the wrong places.  Maybe it works better for a small but already established brokerage, and then you are sort of branding a brokerage.  Most brokerages also do this, offer content makers a 'buyout' option, for a set fee. Usually I find those to be much lower then what I can make on sets I make.

{Bad Kitteh}  "  I really like the content making and design aspect of things, what I really want to do is build up a small studio of content makers eventually.  "

  Eh?  What do you mean by that?

Different people can have different strengths even among vendors. If you work as a group and play to each person's strength, things can be made faster. Also if you have a reliable team of people, you can tackle larger commissions or larger more visible projects, for people who can pay professional level fees.
Like a small version of this kind of a place: http://www.blur.com/

I was wondering what the range of costs might be -- if you have any idea. I mean, obviously, if I wanted to buy a model of an apple that would not be as costly as, say, your ruined city. :) I understand that much will depend on the particular artist as well. If I were to do something like this, naturally I'd want to make a profit on the deal -- but at the same time, I strongly, strongly believe that artists should be properly compensated, which is why it'd probably be a bad business for me to go into. But I think a marketing model that takes a lot of the risk away from the creators and puts it onto the sellers might well be extremely beneficial to some. At the moment creators do almost all the work, assume almost all the risk, but hardly make close to almost all the money. To me that seems very unfair.

Generally speaking, the average rate for a freelance content artist is usually around $20-$25 an hour. That is usually considered a fair rate on average, but of course some artists will go much lower than that while others will charge much higher. But if you consider the median annual salary for 3D artists and animators in the US is in the $45 - $50K range,  it is about right. But many artists don't charge a flat hourly rate. Instead they tend to base their fees on the scope of the project and charge accordingly. An artist that's been working for a while can usually estimate how long it will take to complete a certain job so they'll be able to give you a pretty good estimate up front that compensates for certain unforeseeable issues, assuming there aren't major changes made half way through. But there are other factors to consider too, and the more resources you can provide the artist the less your final costs will be. The more they have to come up with on their own, the higher your costs will be. For the type of scenarios you're talking about, (or at least what I think you're referring to), there are ways to work out agreements where your initial payment for the project serves as a sort of deposit, and then the artist receives a percentage of sales up to a certain amount, which would be whatever amount the two parties agree on. Some artists are fine with setting up arrangements like that while others won't touch it at all and will want their entire fee before handing over the content, because there's no guarantee that the content will have any market at all, so depending on the complexity of the work it can be a risk for the artist. In the end, whoever has the final resale rights to the content is the one most likely to make the most profit from it.