Zev0 I don't think SM take the option you say because a "cheap" version or additional effort, I think they take that option because dson code option had been fatten the competitor (DAZ) who wanted to keep your software market, this is not a real option for SM since DAZ take the "software" way.,SM and DAZ are today two competitors software companies, not a software and a content creator companies.

They have been fattening Daz for years with V4 and content sales. Daz provided Poser with content and SM never saw any financial gains off content they sold, only app sales. So what is your point? Let's just deny users further support of their new figures and content? SM sells the app, not content. More content compatibility for them would be beneficial to their software because they do not provide content themselves (and no I do not consider the shipped with content as content in the greater scale of things). So I do not understand your logic. I would agree with you if SM sold figures, and content for them, where Daz figures and content would then be considered direct competition, however that is not the case.

Zev, If content developers don't want to support two versions, all they are doing is making the divide between Studio and Poser even bigger. I am sure you support that 100%, because you keep repeating it in every Poser forum you go too. So you stop supporting two versions, drop Poser, then want Poser to add the content you make compatible. There is something odd about that. Really odd....

You always jump right on the Poser wont add Studio support, and for years the opposite never happened. The only Poser stuff added to Studio was to support Daz Figures and content. It is ironic that no one ever mentions that there is a boat load of Poser stuff that does not work in Studio. You never mention that, and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why. All you do is fault Poser for not doing something that would add to Genesis sales, your sales, and that is the bottom line.

I have no idea what your talking about when it comes to Dawn either. Dawn is a Studio figure that was converted to Poser, not the other way around. It was designed for Studio, not for Poser. I am sure you will tell everyone differently, but most of us know better. You claim to know a lot about things, but you don't. It is just your opinion twisted into a sudo fact. Then splattered on various forums. Hivewire3D and a few people from the community corrected Dawn to get it to work in Poser, and everyone knows that but you apparently. Converting things from Studio to Poser is not that hard to do either, contrary to what you want people to think. But telling people just the opposite fits your agenda better doesn't it. Ironically you said it was easy at first, and then did a 180 and claimed how it all but doubles the work in the same post. Don't tell the people here that most of the conversion is scriptable, because that wont fit what your trying to do.

As far as Daz code not affecting Poser, you bumped your head.... You can add something which appears to be very simple to a program and then spend weeks hammering out other areas it negatively affects. God forbid merging two code bases and expecting it to go well, because it will be a mess. It isn't as simple as you claim it is, and anyone with any programming experience knows better. You are just hoping that no one that programs reads your posts, but that is not the case.

As far as a Daz Figure for Poser goes, If Daz wanted to release a Poser figure they would have already. It could be an entirely different line from Genesis, etc. But they have chosen not to do so, which is fine. Studio left Poser, let it go. Poser is on the same path it has been on for 20 years, let it continue on that path and be done with it. I don't see any other companies lining up to add Genesis code to their programs, and there is a good reason for that. They don't want it either.

If you want to improve Poser, then help Poser continue on the path, its own path. Stop beating the dead horse about SM not adding Genesis support, whatever, whatever, whatever, etc.

Mods, feel free to do whatever you want with this post....

I have no idea what your talking about when it comes to Dawn either. Dawn is a Studio figure that was converted to Poser, not the other way around. It was designed for Studio, not for Poser. I am sure you will tell everyone differently, but most of us know better. You claim to know a lot about things, but you don't. It is just your opinion twisted into a sudo fact.

Really? Actually I know Dawn was developed in Studio and ported for Poser. In fact most of us do lol. Who was she aimed at shvrdavid? Daz users who had Genesis? Or Poser users looking for a replacement for V4? I remember the campaign quite well actually on multiple sites. All of them teamed up against Daz. Every company and site was listed in this huge campaign to support her for Poser and conveniently Daz's name was left out when ever the word community was brought up. Do you want me to bring up all the posts and pictures of who she was really aimed at? She was supposed to be the alternative to Genesis for Poser users. Don't let the fact that she was created in Daz cloud that. So yes, it is just my twisted opinion. You can warp everything I say, I do not care really. And FYI, I did not bring up Genesis. Just came in to correct a few assumptions. How about you shut every other Poser user who brings up Genesis? Yet you only seem to appear when I post. I've counted 3 times now. Also I don't feel I need to comment or defend myself about anything else I said. After all, it is just my opinion twisted into a sudo fact. Hmmm I see Nerd at Hivewire, I've seen pics of the two companies having lunch together. Hmmm, I wonder why Daz wasn't invited....Yes..Just my twisted opinion.

Zev0 posted at 4:18AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234645

**Every company and site was listed in this huge campaign to support her for Poser and conveniently Daz's name was left out when ever the word community was brought up.

**

That's because Daz was not interested in cooperating, in fact ANY mention of Dawn in the forums got promptly deleted! I guess you have forgotten that members were forbidden from mentioning her in the beginning. In fact attempts from Hivewire to reach out to Daz has been dismissed.

And DSON importer not interfering with Poser code is bullshit. I had to uninstall it because it conflicted with other scripts.

People also blamed Dson and Reality for not working when there were issues with El Capitan. Had Nothing to do with Posers code. Guess what, they can be updated to work and Posers code can remain intact. Maybe the other scripts that are causing issues need to be updated as well? Some of them are quite outdated. Again, does not really affect Posers code.

Whatever Zev. The fact remains that Daz bailed on Poser a long time ago, and now people, including you, think that SM should do something about it. Dawn was aimed as a proof of concept that a character could be supported and function in both programs sharing the same content, a point that you try to dismiss as being far to much work. I really don't care about the campaigns, etc. Because if you stop and think about it, SM hanging out with Hivewire is no big deal because it is still Chris Creek and crew.

So what do you do? You make a big deal out of the same people hanging out together just because one group has a new name.

You really make me wonder....

Zev, I'm glad you think Genesis is the way forward. If that is the case, you might as well stick to the Daz forums because Genesis 3 in not going to happen in Poser. You don't want Poser to move forward unless Genesis is in it, and you just basically said that for all to see. "We were willing" is past tense....

I'm guessing you supported every figure that came out of Daz, and now that many have left Daz you have absolutely no plans of supporting anything that does not come out of the Daz camp. It would not matter if there was a mass exodus for Daz again and another company sprang up, it just would not be worth supporting it in your eyes.

As far as to much work to do a conversion? I have never used Hivewires conversion service and do them with tools that I have. If taking an hour or so to convert a Studio piece of content to Poser is to much work for you, so be it. Considering I manually corrected Dawn for a SR1 template, I think I can say I know what I am talking about in that regard. I have corrected many other things from Studio to Poser as well, and it isn't rocket science contrary to what you keep saying. I have done far more for Poser "on the front line" than you will ever give me credit for.

Go stick to Genesis if that is what you think is the way forward. Genesis 3's dual quad rigging is nothing new, and was designed years ago to reduce memory overhead in video games. If using technology that old is moving forward, you have at it. Does it have advantages? Yes, but it also has disadvantages as well.

I will stick with using Houdini, Maya, Poser, Blender, Studio, etc. And use the programs for the strengths they have instead of wishing all of them were basically the same program.

As far as it being time to leave V4? (Which is the title of this thread) That depends on what you want out of Poser/Studio. I rarely use V4 and prefer V3s mesh over it and converting V4 stuff to V3 is really easy. I use Dawn, and a lot of other figures as well. I am not stuck to one wire frame, or the mentality that one could possibly be better than hundreds. I don't have a problem recycling content to use on other figures. I don't have a problem supporting new figures and have helped in the development of more than a few.

What I do have a problem with is knowing that people like you are going to try to convince everyone and their brother that Genesis would be a far better option than anything else right off the bat..

Oh, and Studio wasn't even around when V4 was released, so I fail to see the similarity in the business model. V4 in Studio used Poser content for years, not Studio content.

I am going to bow out of this thread and let you show your stuff, since everything you think is apparently gospel in the 3D world...........

What's a "sudo fact"?

sudo apt-get install thetruth?

In any case, Poser may well be fine without Daz. Who knows? There may be lots of users who have never even heard of Daz. And how many others who are happy to make their own stuff?

So, for shvrdavid and others like him, who can more or less create their own content, it's not really a problem.

Poser content creators, on the other hand, will have problems, as it seems clear to me that the users who actually spend a fair amount of money on content are gravitating towards DS. The vendors will solve that by focusing on the market where they can actually make a buck.

It's quite possible that a small but robust niche market for Poser compatible content may evolve and thrive. Part of the problem of making money in the market was the sheer enormity of the competition among vendors. If a great many of them leave the Poser content market, those who remain will have a much bigger share of what remains. It might well be far more than they started with. In the end, this may turn out to be exactly what the Poserverse needed.

In the meantime, for the ordinary Poser user, there will be some sting of severe growing pains. Hence the continual complaining!

I guess we'll have a better idea of where things stand a year or two after Poser 11 is released. Until then... well. Anything could happen.

Zev, I'm glad you think Genesis is the way forward. If that is the case, you might as well stick to the Daz forums because Genesis 3 in not going to happen in Poser. You don't want Poser to move forward unless Genesis is in it, and you just basically said that for all to see.

The question is, can Poser move forward without Daz and without Genesis3 and the vendors supporting them? I am not against Poser moving forward, but if moving forward is giving me another Roxie or Rex type offering to try and make a living from, then dammit yes I want Genesis in Poser. I am tired of all these alternate offerings that don't go anywhere that nobody really cares about. How can you expect vendors to invest in that? So yes I said it for all to see. Give me a solid platform to work with. But as Moriador said, let's see what Poser 11 has to offer.

you all's fighting would save me a lot of time if ya just said I hate you with one sentence that way I wouldn't half to read a book to get caught up on the thread.

adh3d posted at 1:50AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234636

You have to understand taht , since DAZ3d create Daz Studio, DAZ3d is not only a content creator, is a software competitor for SM, so, how can SM let their competitor include a part of software in Poser, it had been a suicide.

I have to add that if DAZ3d had wanted to make a figure compatible with Poser, the could do that just making two versions, genesis for DS and, we can say , V5 for Poser, using Poser weight mapping, but Daz take a way, and it is their own way, create content for their own software.

I get what your saying but DAZ was the driving force behind Poser since V1 days. Poser has been bolt n sold multiple times. Just about ever version of Poser has a deferent company backing it. And those companies always abandoned us. Vendors came n went. The only constant in the last decade + is DAZ. DAZ made Poser ,not what ever company just happened to own it that week. With out DAZ there would be no Poser like we know today.

I was around during what we called the main App's 3D Wars. There's a old abandoned Truspace 7 ,now free. That will never be upgraded again and sooner or latter will not work on modern OS's. Truespaces name will fade away but Truespace is one of the founding fathers of 3D. Back in the Poser 3 days Softimage was the King of 3D. Now Softimage R.I.P. Lightwave is nothing what it once was. Adobe is nothing what it once was.

Truspace ,Softimage ,Lightwave .Where all greater App's then Poser.

adh3d posted at 2:26AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234636

You have to understand taht , since DAZ3d create Daz Studio, DAZ3d is not only a content creator, is a software competitor for SM, so, how can SM let their competitor include a part of software in Poser, it had been a suicide.

I have to add that if DAZ3d had wanted to make a figure compatible with Poser, the could do that just making two versions, genesis for DS and, we can say , V5 for Poser, using Poser weight mapping, but Daz take a way, and it is their own way, create content for their own software.

DAZ never has abandoned us the user. There still here for us. They might have out grown Poser but DAZ never abandoned us. There's nothing wrong with growing . If DAZ made a V7 DAZ version and a V7 Poser version. The V7 Poser version would still be limited with out the genesis code. V7 needs a mesh ,textures ,rigs and genesis code to fulfil her full potential. So DAZ can't make a V7 Poser version that's = to the V7 DAZ version with out the genesis code. That's why DAZ doesn't make a V7 Poser version.

adh3d posted at 2:40AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234591

Hi, I always model in wings3d, character or other 3d models. My last character,the second version of adman, I am working in it now,was modelled in wings3d too. For box modelling is the best tool out there and free ;)

I've seen killer work done with wings3D but to me Truespace will always be my fav modeler .I still hate it got abandoned.

Genesis is not going to happen in Poser. It's been stated repeatedly. Smith Micro is not interested in licensing DAZ file formats and DAZ isn't interested in giving their formats away. Constantly creating arguments about it in the forums is not going to change that fact. It's been years and nothing has changed. If SM thought Genesis would boost sales of their software to any significant degree, then they've had plenty of time to determine that. Obviously the benefit does not outweigh the detriment in doing so or they would have by now. They can't legally make it work in Poser without DAZ's permission, and DAZ wants money for that permission. Poser is not dependent on content creators for its success. If it were, then there wouldn't be another version of Poser being developed right now. Content creators are dependent on Poser. If you want to make a living creating content for Poser then create content that works in Poser. No one is stopping you. It's your responsibility to create content that people want to buy. Poser provides the tools to do so but it's not going to make you a good artist, only you can do that. There are a number of successful content artists making their livings from Poser content completely independent of whatever DAZ is doing. There are also a number of Poser users who create their own content and aren't dependent on what some other content provider is or isn't doing. If your success as a content artist depends on a 3rd party's content then maybe you need to reassess your skills as a content artist. There are dozens of figures that work just fine in Poser. Pick one and make content for it or improve it into something that people want to use. You think that can't be done or that it's a waste of time? Look at Anastasia. Before she came along no one wanted to use Alyson. One artist turned her into something a whole bunch of people wanted to use, and it didn't require a single bit of anything from DAZ. Neither did the characters built off of her. And 4 years later she's still selling. How many versions of Genesis have come along since then? I doubt her creator thinks Anastasia was a waste of time. The same can be done with any figure in Poser's library and the only thing that's stopping anyone from doing so is themselves.

AmbientShade posted at 3:08PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234678

Poser is not dependent on content creators for its success.

In a matter of months your no-content nirvana will be among us; I am going to sit on the river bank, eating popcorn and enjoying the amusing show of how Poser will thrive in such environment.

AmbientShade posted at 8:13AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234678

They can't legally make it work in Poser without DAZ's permission, and DAZ wants money for that permission.

Doesn't matter how many times this is corrected, this misinformation still comes up.

DSON is an open character notation format. SM does not need a license to import it. Just like they don't need a license to import OBJ or FBX.

Genesis has happened in Poser. Genesis and Genesis 2 are both in Poser through the use of the DSON Importer for Poser. Is it ideal? No. Primarily because the Poser API requires you to go in through the Python Interface, which is limited and slow. The biggest slowdowns when dealing with DSON content in Poser? Poser's draw and API.

Could it be better? Sure, if the programmers at SM made the importer internally or offered a better API.

RorrKonn posted at 10:23AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234663

you all's fighting would save me a lot of time if ya just said I hate you with one sentence that way I wouldn't half to read a book to get caught up on the thread.

Funny!

bhoins posted at 11:24AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234694

AmbientShade posted at 8:13AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234678

They can't legally make it work in Poser without DAZ's permission, and DAZ wants money for that permission.

Doesn't matter how many times this is corrected, this misinformation still comes up.

DSON is an open character notation format. SM does not need a license to import it. Just like they don't need a license to import OBJ or FBX.

Genesis has happened in Poser. Genesis and Genesis 2 are both in Poser through the use of the DSON Importer for Poser. Is it ideal? No. Primarily because the Poser API requires you to go in through the Python Interface, which is limited and slow. The biggest slowdowns when dealing with DSON content in Poser? Poser's draw and API.

Could it be better? Sure, if the programmers at SM made the importer internally or offered a better API.

I don't go by what random people in forums state. I go by what I've heard directly from Poser's product managers, both former and current. If you think they're wrong then you need to take it up with them. In the meantime what they say is the official wording.

moriador posted at 9:15AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234656

It's quite possible that a small but robust niche market for Poser compatible content may evolve and thrive. Part of the problem of making money in the market was the sheer enormity of the competition among vendors. If a great many of them leave the Poser content market, those who remain will have a much bigger share of what remains. It might well be far more than they started with. In the end, this may turn out to be exactly what the Poserverse needed.

The nightmare scenario for Zev0 is Poser vendors moving en masse to genesis. The only reason Zev0 is making the money at the moment is due to the paucity of DS vendors. Not hard to make money with DS products if you are the only one filling a niche. He is in trouble if the folks that make correction products and morph sets for V4 move into his space. They have a much better reputation, not to mention a longer track history.

The same can be said for the half dozen vendors that regularly make characters for the golum. They will have to up their game - no more using the same texture maps for every one of their figures.

I suspect the clothing vendors at Daz will exit the market. The quality of the products they make aren't as good as what vendors were selling at Daz a decade ago. Increased competition isn't good for vendor's bottom line.

BHoins the issue is not about dson it is about native Genesis support in Poser.

AmbientShade posted at 10:40AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234711

BHoins the issue is not about dson it is about native Genesis support in Poser.

And since the format Genesis is in is DSON, then importing Genesis is indeed about reading the format.

ssgbryan posted at 10:48AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234708

Your argument that SM should take over the development of 64-bit Python from the developers of Python, just so they could rewrite Daz's code. And it WOULD have to be rewritten. Moving from 32-bit to 64-bit is a hell of a lot more than just pointing at new libraries. Ask Adobe or Microsoft.

You are right on 1 thing - The DSON Importer for Poser is certainly not ideal. Fortunately, we can bypass it. File - Export. Spend 10 - 15 minutes converting those .duf PCF to native Poser .mc6s, .pz2s, .cr2s, etc. If I can figure out how to do it in less than 30 minutes with no documentation from Daz (as usual), so could a vendor.

LOL. Really? I never said Poser needs to rewrite Python. The API could have access other than Python. Even with the current python, there are definite places the current API could be significantly more efficient.

And your export to Cr2 does not produce the same functionality, which is why that method was dropped. But you knew that already.

Again, Smith Micro has stated that they cannot legally implement the code. Which means that some portion of genesis is not open source. And even if they could, they've chosen not to for whatever reasons of their own. It's their software, their decision. Continuous arguing about it isn't going to change that. The dson importer is as close as you're going to get. People have come up with other ways of getting around the importer and have given directions about those methods in various threads. If people aren't satisfied with those methods then that's on them. There is also FBX for those who have Poser game dev.

There is no point in going back and forth on the issue. The only thing that will do is get posts deleted and people banned from this forum, so drop the arguing.

The nightmare scenario for Zev0 is Poser vendors moving en masse to genesis. The only reason Zev0 is making the money at the moment is due to the paucity of DS vendors. Not hard to make money with DS products if you are the only one filling a niche. He is in trouble if the folks that make correction products and morph sets for V4 move into his space. They have a much better reputation, not to mention a longer track history.

Umm Poser vendors moving en masse to Genesis and DS has been happening for a while now? Guess what, it doesn't really affected me. I have actually been encouraging more vendors to develop for Genesis and DS. Hell, I have even been involved with recruiting a few that directly compete with what I do. If I was really scared, I would tell them all to stay away because they would make way more money on other figures lol, and that DS and Genesis is bad for business:) So really, I don't know where you get this nightmare scenario idea from lol. In fact, I think your nightmare scenario is all of them moving over and your poor figures will remain unsupported. Thanks SSbryan, your post actually made my day:) It amazes me sometimes the theories you come up with. Full marks for creativity:)

ssgbryan posted at 12:10PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234702

moriador posted at 9:15AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234656

It's quite possible that a small but robust niche market for Poser compatible content may evolve and thrive. Part of the problem of making money in the market was the sheer enormity of the competition among vendors. If a great many of them leave the Poser content market, those who remain will have a much bigger share of what remains. It might well be far more than they started with. In the end, this may turn out to be exactly what the Poserverse needed.

The nightmare scenario for Zev0 is Poser vendors moving en masse to genesis. The only reason Zev0 is making the money at the moment is due to the paucity of DS vendors. Not hard to make money with DS products if you are the only one filling a niche. He is in trouble if the folks that make correction products and morph sets for V4 move into his space. They have a much better reputation, not to mention a longer track history.

The same can be said for the half dozen vendors that regularly make characters for the golum. They will have to up their game - no more using the same texture maps for every one of their figures.

I suspect the clothing vendors at Daz will exit the market. The quality of the products they make aren't as good as what vendors were selling at Daz a decade ago. Increased competition isn't good for vendor's bottom line.

Actually Zev0 has always had some "competition" as far as his morphs go so new people doing them isn't going to be a change. Nor would poser primary vendors choosing to move to Studio to do morphs for Genesis 3 have any more impact than any fresh face doing it. A poser primary vendor may have a following with poser users but that is not going to translate over to studio as a given. That is true for any product not just Zev0's. Nor is potential competition as "bad" as you might think. Product sales are not nearly as based on "what else there is" as on the product itself and how it is presented to the customer. I'm not worried a bit about Zev0's potential income no matter how many poser primary content creators might deiced to produce for studio instead, and you shouldn't either. He has top drawer products, top drawer presentation, and the best reputation for those products with Studio users.

As a matter of fact all the content providers your trying to harsh on and cast blind aspersions at (for products your not really familiar with I suspect) will be fine. I expect to see some continued shifts in what programs are supported and by whom and where. But, I expect those only to have positive outcomes for all involved for a variety of reasons. I know some people are stuck in a past where there is a limited market and they see any competition as draining away money from them. But that is not true for the Studio market and has not been for ages. Studio is and has been a growth industry for the last few years and that isn't changing any time soon. More high quality content draws more customers and helps expand the market further so it is welcome and a benefit to everyone. I think some "bottom lines" have already increased and that is why we have and will continued to see those shifts. I can see why some of those shifts would be worrisome for some people of course. But I don't think it is those who are currently Studio content providers.

ssgbryan posted at 2:22PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234745

bhoins posted at 10:56AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234717

ssgbryan posted at 10:48AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234708

Your argument that SM should take over the development of 64-bit Python from the developers of Python, just so they could rewrite Daz's code. And it WOULD have to be rewritten. Moving from 32-bit to 64-bit is a hell of a lot more than just pointing at new libraries. Ask Adobe or Microsoft.

You are right on 1 thing - The DSON Importer for Poser is certainly not ideal. Fortunately, we can bypass it. File - Export. Spend 10 - 15 minutes converting those .duf PCF to native Poser .mc6s, .pz2s, .cr2s, etc. If I can figure out how to do it in less than 30 minutes with no documentation from Daz (as usual), so could a vendor.

LOL. Really? I never said Poser needs to rewrite Python. The API could have access other than Python. Even with the current python, there are definite places the current API could be significantly more efficient.

And your export to Cr2 does not produce the same functionality, which is why that method was dropped. But you knew that already.

Yeah, you did; you obviously don't have the skill sets to understand the issues involved. I was involved in some software death marches in my youth, moving from 16-bit to 32-bit. It didn't get any easier when moving from 32-bit to 64-bit. All of that legacy code would have to be tossed. Not to mention everyone else that uses the add-on subsystem (for what it was actually designed for) would have to rewrite their products also.

AFA "same functionality", yeah, I don't have weight mapping along 3 axis, only 1; - so what.

No, seriously, so what.

In the past 4 years, no one has EVER demonstrated the advantages of Daz's weight-mapping system over the one Poser uses. Forgive me if I don't seem all that impressed - Poser users have been able to bend any figure into pretzels for a while now. I can make the Poser 2 Lo-res figures bend just as nicely in Poser as genesis does in DS. (raise subdivision to 3, add and adjust weight mapping if you are feeling ambitious - no cost to me).

You guys just don't get it. The figure fragmentation in the Poserverse has been a long time coming (and overdue in my opinion). I am glad I have choices other than V4. Poser gives me better tools than DS; and at the end of the day, figures are just another tool.

The problem you or Zev0 or Male3dia can't seem to grasp is that not everyone aspires to be a 3rd rate Elvgren wannabe. Actually, you can't really do that - Pin up art from that time frame had dresses that went below the knee - that has been, shall we say, problematic for genesis - not having access to something like the cloth room.

Once you move outside of the pinup niche, the genesis content is quite limited, as are the alleged "advantages" in the figures ability to bend over legacy figures (which I can fix in Poser - without dropping three or four hundred dollars and moving back to the Poser 4 era AFA software features).

The biggest issue with the genesis lineup isn't the technology - it is the very limited vision of that handful of vendors that create for it. Here is a quick example - right now over on Fastgrab there are 2 male products by the same vendor, Jericho for M4 and Apollo for M6. Looking at the promo's, the only difference appears to be the chest hair.

Now, why should I buy Apollo? I don't mind adding to my collection of g2m figures, but why spend $5.39 (70% off) for chest hair (that won't actually be seen - my characters tend to keep their clothes on.) Big picture, this is the issue - with only a couple of exceptions (Male3dia being the main one), Daz vendors are just rehashing what has come before - the same euro-trash early 20-somethings Poser vendors have been inflicting on us for the past decade. Sturgeon's Law in full effect. Not a good thing for a vendor, in my opinion.

That is the advantage of using many figures which Poser user can do, DS users can't. - the goals of the figure makers are different, the meshes are different, the morphs are different, the vendors making stuff for them are different. My stuff doesn't look like everyone else's.

Here is another example. In my fan-fic, I need a multitude of characters - I can use any figure released in the past decade, with the exception of that fat chick Daz released.

How many black males are available in the genesis lineup? My options are several orders of magnitude larger than someone limited to genesis. I can use a genesis 1 or 2 character, I can use an Apollo Maximus character, I can use M1, 2, 3 or 4, I can use P6 James, I can use G2 Simon, or James, or Kelvin, I can use Dusk, or Rikishi. In my case, I have over 100 - how many does genesis have? Not a hundred, not even close.

If I need an Asian chick - in genesis I have about a dozen or so choices (blue eyed Asian are popular) - and only a couple come with black eyes. Wanna guess how many choices I have using Poser? Again, well over 100.

If I need a Caucasian chick - I have about 700 choices. What choices do genesis users have?

Caucasian characters sell, ethnics don't. The market made that abundantly clear. If you have an issue with that, you have to take it up with the paying customers rather than vendors. I made very few ethnic characters because they keep bottoming out in sales. I know you want to give your opinion, but since you don't sell or even make anything, your comments come off as uninformed at best and do nothing but stir a pot that really doesn't need to be stirred. If anyone bothers to listen to what you say, they really deserve the sales they don't get.

And please stop bringing my name into these convos. If your arguments are so weak you need to name call, you probably just shouldn't post.

" You guys just don't get it. The figure fragmentation in the Poserverse has been a long time coming (and overdue in my opinion). I am glad I have choices other than V4. Poser gives me better tools than DS; and at the end of the day, figures are just another tool."

And I don't get what that has to do with anything. Is it a dig at Studio? It can use all those and genesis 3. And the tools is as always a matter of personal taste just like the user interface thing is a matter of taste.

"Once you move outside of the pinup niche, the genesis content is quite limited, as are the alleged "advantages" in the figures ability to bend over legacy figures (which I can fix in Poser - without dropping three or four hundred dollars and moving back to the Poser 4 era AFA software features)."

Aside from using all the old clothes from all those old figures of course...so the limit is to what you own more than what the figures can use. And I have no clue what you think you should spend 3 or 4 hundred dollars on unless your talking about to use something in poser...Maybe you would like to elaborate on what it is was so necessary and pricey and un-owned by so many of us? It must be something that no one has ever created for poser or else your thinking would be flawed.

"The biggest issue with the genesis lineup isn't the technology - it is the very limited vision of that handful of vendors that create for it. Here is a quick example - right now over on Fastgrab there are 2 male products by the same vendor, Jericho for M4 and Apollo for M6. Looking at the promo's, the only difference appears to be the chest hair."

Urm.. except for the whole use M4 textures on genesis and the ability to transfer any morphs from him which then gives you pretty much as much potential with genesis 1 and 2 as M4 plus anything created uniquely for him along with the addition of HD on top of those things. So M6 has the flexibility of anything M4, M5, and M6.

" Daz vendors are just rehashing what has come before - the same euro-trash early 20-somethings Poser vendors have been inflicting on us for the past decade. Sturgeon's Law in full effect. Not a good thing for a vendor, in my opinion."

Well if you can get some Americans, or south Americans, or Africans, or other non "euro-trash" persons to take all their clothes off and have scores of pictures taken of their entire body, including the naughty bits close up, for very little money please feel free to start selling them like hotcakes. The whole span of the 3d content providers will be thrilled to purchase these new and different resources. Until then everyone is stuck with the limited selections available.

That is the advantage of using many figures which Poser user can do, DS users can't. - the goals of the figure makers are different, the meshes are different, the morphs are different, the vendors making stuff for them are different. My stuff doesn't look like everyone else's. "

Why can't they? As far as I know Studio can still use ever one of those old figures that poser can.

"In my fan-fic, I need a multitude of characters - I can use any figure released in the past decade, with the exception of that fat chick Daz released."

Studio can still use all of those and it seems also some other character I am unaware of that is heavy set.

"How many black males are available in the genesis lineup? My options are several orders of magnitude larger than someone limited to genesis. I can use a genesis 1 or 2 character, I can use an Apollo Maximus character, I can use M1, 2, 3 or 4, I can use P6 James, I can use G2 Simon, or James, or Kelvin, I can use Dusk, or Rikishi. In my case, I have over 100 - how many does genesis have? Not a hundred, not even close.

If I need an Asian chick - in genesis I have about a dozen or so choices (blue eyed Asian are popular) - and only a couple come with black eyes. Wanna guess how many choices I have using Poser? Again, well over 100.

If I need a Caucasian chick - I have about 700 choices. What choices do genesis users have?"

If they are using genesis 1 or 2 they can use the skins from the v4/m4 line (actually with additional products they can go back even further texture wise) as well as the characters from their own generation and if it is Genesis 2 then the genesis one line as well. There are a few characters that use different UV's but that is not true of the majority. So most users would have as many DAZ based choices as you do. Plus they still have the use of any of the other figures created for poser excluding the poser weight mapped ones. I have to say I'm starting to wonder if you grasp how any of this works..

Well, Khory_D, I would say the same of you. The workflow process in Poser has fundamentally changed over the past few versions - not that most vendors would be aware of this - most are unwilling to let go of Poser 6 and it's way of doing things. Many are working under the default assumption that everyone MUST work with a Daz figure. That isn't actually the case. Furthermore, vendors today have no clue as to what figures their clothing is going onto - I have dozens of outfits for V4 that have never been worn by V4, but have been worn by Dawn, or Olivia or Mariko or Roxy or Anastasia - get the point? Nor do vendors know if a V4 character was bought for the sole purpose of harvesting the skin textures for use on other figures - I do that all the time.

Poser has changed, even if vendors haven't - mainly due to SM listening to the customers. The reason we have the fitting room is due to vendor intransigence about making content for any figure NOT named V4. There are numerous other examples. The Copy Morphs From command, for example, means that vendors needn't bother with PBMs in clothing anymore. It would certainly save me the time of stripping them out of every single piece of clothing I own. And don't get me started on material files.

Figure fragmentation is what the thread was originally about. (Time to leave V4). As a Poser user, the issue is irrelevant. I can pull in both Poser compatible figures and the 1st 2 generations of genesis figures. Granted, I can't use the new fat chick, but I can live without her. BTW, just what is the difference between V7, Arabella 7, and Karen 7 - the promo's don't show me why I should buy it. And Josie 7 doesn't' seem to do anything that Josie 6 couldn't do, other than be a drain on my wallet.

DS doesn't support capsule rigging or Poser's weight mapping (or any Poser 5 or later feature other than the ability to read .mc6 files), so I am not real sure how to get newer SM figures working DS. If there is a way to do it, I certainly wouldn't mind learning. I like my Asian characters to have black eyes as opposed to blue ones and be short, so just how do YOU get Miki 3 or 4 working in DS? Do tell.

Whether or not a product is old doesn't prevent it's use - Which would you find more useful? - A new male suit with no movement morphs and only a couple of texture sets, or an old suit with many movement morphs and many texture sets. As an example, IMO, the Casablanca suit for M3 was the best suit ever made for Poser figures, as was the clothing made by Utilize for M3 (still being sold at Daz). Which is why all of my male figures are wearing them. Does Autofit work with Gen3 clothing? I haven't been successful, but it would not surprise me the least if I was doing something wrong - it isn't like there is a usable manual to go with DS.

Nothing made for genesis comes even close to those "old" products. And those "old" products have texture templates - I have no idea where Daz is currently hiding those nowadays, I just know that before genesis rolled out the door, they were together with the clothing product, so the customer could download them in 1 go.

AFA "dig on studio" - its more like a dig on Daz's software "development" process such as it is and what there is of it. I am one of the many customers Daz cheated out of $150 out of with Cararra 6 upgrade fiasco and I have neither forgotten nor forgiven Daz for refusing to refund my money once they admitted that they lied to all of us about getting it to work in OSX. Or the fact that my copy of Hexagon wouldn't run in OSX for 4 years.

DS lacks features of Poser 5, never mind newer versions. The easiest example is the cloth room, but it isn't the only one - just the one I use the most - closely followed by the Fitting Room - the ability to easily update rigging (rigging got a whole lot easier in 2014), adding subdivision and weight mapping to legacy figures leverages the products I already own.

So tell me, using my example above - how would YOU get Miki 3 (capsule rigging) or Miki 4 (Poser Weight Mapped) (or a legacy rigged figure like Eroko - when she isn't tied up) dressed in a genesis 2 outfit? I haven't been able to figure out how to do it, and needless to say, there is nothing in the "document center" that explains how to do this. That is kinda important for what I do - I need all of my Star Trek characters in the same uniform (V4 Courageous & M4 Valiant is what I standardized on - that may change if I can figure out how to get some genesis 2 clothing working reliably in Poser - I will figure it out - there can only be so many wrong ways to do it.)

AFA that 3 to 4 hundred dollars - you can start with Slosh's UV products and then get a full collection of Dimension3D's GenX2 products - that is right at 185 right there, now add in DraagonStorms texture Batch Conversion products. If there is a cheaper way to do it, I wouldn't mind seeing some documentation on it. (There's that pesky word again.) I probably did spend too much money on add-ons, but I couldn't get a handle on what I needed and what I didn't.

AFA moving textures - yeah, I already own all of those products (TC1 & 2 and TT, and I work them like a rented mule). But that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.

Speaking of textures - where to get a wider variety of them? The pron industry maybe?

a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.

Umm sorry I disagree. With my Shape Shift product and the body and head morph packages available you can get realistic proportions with more flexibility on Genesis than any of your figures can. So that is a load of BS saying Daz figures are ONLY non realistically proportioned. I can load up a photo of a realistically proportioned figure and match the shape perfectly just by using the morphs without adjusting scale. Stop looking at figures at Default state to use as an argument. Figures can be changed depending on how flexible they can be. You do know figures do not have to be used at default state right? Then again, that is probably the only shape options you have on your other figures, hense why you chop and change because they can't be anything else other than what they are because they lack the flexibility or support to do so.

false1 posted at 7:22PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234695

RorrKonn posted at 10:23AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234663

you all's fighting would save me a lot of time if ya just said I hate you with one sentence that way I wouldn't half to read a book to get caught up on the thread.

Funny!

Good thing they listened ;)

Zev0 posted at 5:20PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234797

a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.

Umm sorry I disagree. With my Shape Shift product and the body and head morph packages available you can get realistic proportions with more flexibility on Genesis than any of your figures can. So that is a load of BS saying Daz figures are ONLY non realistically proportioned. I can load up a photo of a realistically proportioned figure and match the shape perfectly just by using the morphs without adjusting scale. Stop looking at figures at Default state to use as an argument. Figures can be changed depending on how flexible they can be. You do know figures do not have to be used at default state right? Then again, that is probably the only shape options you have on your other figures, hense why you chop and change because they can't be anything else other than what they are because they lack the flexibility or support to do so.

Of course you disagree, you are a DS vendor trying to sell something. My goal in art isn't increasing your bottom line, it is getting the stories in my head on the screen.

There are more morph packs for SM's G2 Sydney series than are available for genesis. Hell, Antonia Polygon has almost as many morph packs as genesis. I have a lot of genesis characters and for the most part, they aren't any more distinctive than any other figure available. There are more characters available for the the SM G2 line than there are for the Daz G2 line. And you truly have no idea how amusing I find that, after listening to the whole There is no content for Sydney during it's life-cycle. It's not just them - Dawn has about as many characters made for her than were made for g2f. I know I own over 50 and I don't own all of them.

The easiest way to get a differing size DAZ figure isn't buying your product - it is using the M4-K4 mixer script (free, btw). It works on both Daz Gen4 figures, Gen3 figures and Gen2 figures. I now have the following mixes to as start points: V4-K4, M4-K4, V3-Sp3, V3-A3, V3-L3, Sp3-L3, Sp3-A3, M3-D3, M3-H3, M3-L3, V2-MilGirl, M2-MilBoy. And yes, I use them all. Which is the easiest way of dealing with the height issue - it is much easier to adjust a figure by an inch or two either way with 1 dial than trying to shrink a 5'10" figure down to 5'2".

So, I already have a bit more flexibility than genesis has; animatable joint centers didn't start with genesis - I had them a decade ago with Apollo Maximus.

And none of you have addressed the clothing issue. All the alleged bending improvements in the world won't fix the sad state of genesis clothing.

Philosophically, I don't belong to the One Size Fits All school - I belong to the Right Tool For The Right Job school. If I need a fat man, I am reaching for Rikishi, because the base mesh is that of a fat man. It works better than bulking up a figure IMO - a lot less work on my end, than trying to shoe horn an idea into a mesh. I find it easier both in time and MY bottom line.

That is important for what I do. I don't do single figure still images - I do graphic novels - lots of characters - If I am not careful, it would look like a David Weber novel - cast of thousands, all in meetings that never end. I can't do this with genesis when over 95% of the genesis characters are Caucasian. Yeah, that number is accurate - I counted. Most of the genesis characters that I buy that weren't part of a bundle (at 72% off) are non-Caucasian & non-Asian. As many different figures and characters I own, I still don't have enough non-Caucasians.

Now, looking back at genesis - how many genesis 3 females are non-Caucasian? Oh, none of them? Imagine that.

Now, look at how this translates into my art. Start with the Star Trek: TOS bridge. 13 positions when at general quarters. I also need more than 1 shift - because when at general quarters, there will be another 13 people on the Emergency Bridge and another 5 in Aux Control - That is 31 characters. Still have Engineering, Sick Bay, etc. Each ship in the story arc needs anywhere from 25 - 75 characters reoccurring characters. And I have more than 1 ship. Star Fleet doctrine is 90% 1 race per ship & the rest are aliens. 1 ship, the Iron Duke is going to be 90% black humans (If I can get enough of them). Which is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable; which is part of art. I'd like my ships to match the the current Earth racial break outs. I can't do this with genesis - there simply aren't enough non-Caucasian skin textures for it, even if using M4/V4 skin textures. I am still short handed with Indian characters and South Asian characters - I buy them, regardless of what base mesh they start with, because there is only 1 figure I can't use, and I don't see DS vendors making doing much in the way of non-Caucasians.

bhoins posted at 7:17PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234805

ssgbryan posted at 5:20PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - [#4234708]

Request #196181 Wrong version of INJectionPoseBuilder

Harry Bryan Jun 29, 17:27

The Mac installer of INJectionPoseBuilder installs the windows version of the product. I am sure there is a reason how this got past QA - I suspect it is because QA doesn't.

Please fix this.

Thankyou.

Last response from Topher Spencer:

HI Harry

The Q/A team has been notified. I will update you when I hear anything more.

Have a good day.

August 26, 2015, 10:51

Note the dates.

You got an answer from Customer service within hours of your post. And no I was not embarrassed by you, but you did help me illustrate a point. Thank you for that.

Do you now believe that if someone asks Daz 3D about the DSON format and licensing they will get a different answer from what I gave?

No - What it tells me is that your QA manager is incompetent. I shouldn't have to air Daz's dirty laundry for all to see to get someone at Daz to do their damned job. There was no intention to address the issue - Topher couldn't even be bothered to ask "QA" an ETA on the product - which I asked him to do 2 months ago.

I read the note - The product hasn't worked in OSX for 8 years (and the last 6 versions of OSX) and no one at Daz noticed. I am tired of being told by Daz employees that it is MY job to do the QA manager's job - it isn't the first time it has happened.

The last time I had a issue in tech support I had to PM the CTO of the company (He made the mistake of once posting in the forums over at Daz.) Within 24 hours, tech support was swearing up and down that out of the 300+ bugs labeled crash immediate in OSX that he picked mine to fix - after in languished in the que unacknowledged for over 6 MONTHS. How the *&^% they missed that they compiled the OSX version of DS 4.0 against the wrong set of Qt libraries is beyond me.

How many actions do you having sitting unresolved at over 90 days? I know the QA manager doesn't know - and their boss isn't even smart enough to know to look.

I was telling Daz that a decade ago that they didn't have a competent operations manager - I have run larger organizations than Daz & I would have fired everyone working there by now. No one on the management side of the house knows what they are doing.

Philosophically, I don't belong to the One Size Fits All school - I belong to the Right Tool For The Right Job school. If I need a fat man, I am reaching for Rikishi, because the base mesh is that of a fat man. It works better than bulking up a figure IMO - a lot less work on my end, than trying to shoe horn an idea into a mesh. I find it easier both in time and MY bottom line.

Silly Philosophically and not practical. You belong to the Fool School. Prove to me how because it is a bulked up figure by default that it is better than a figure that can be bulked up? Wait, sorry excuse me while I stop laughing for a minute......So, you're telling me that just because Rikishi is bulked up by default he looks better than any other figure that can be bulked up? Lol, ok now I have heard it all. What if you want to change Rikishi's face appearance to other than asian? Or tweak his body shape? Oh and to get Rikishi to use other skins? Ah yes, have to convert everything for him... But it is never too much work when it is a non Daz figure:)

Zev0.. why does it bother you so much that some people like to use more than one figure?

I have no problem with people using one figure. It is the reasoning given behind it that makes no sense as to why they are using it eg SSbryans logic, and the comparison to say that because it is that way by default that it is superior, which is a load of nonsense.

How is it nonsense to point out unresolved issues?

Edit: This thread is now getting so far off topic I'll just leave it now, before Shane slaps us all :3

DreaminGirl posted at 10:34PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234837

How is it nonsense to point out unresolved issues?

It was resolved because Ssybryan downloaded the windows zip instead of the mac zip and complained. There was no issue.

HiveWireChris posted at 10:35PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4229741

I dip in here from time to time, especially when some one forwards me a link to check out. Don't usually post because I don't want to come off as selling my work, or drawing negative attention. However, I would like to share my point of view for the future of Poser and DS content. DAZ created and owns the DSON format. DAZ has widened the chasm that exists between them and the "mother ship". DSON is still a weak and anemic way to get DAZ content into Poser and working well. G3 is made for Studio only really. Any DAZ figure going forward will not be made for Poser period! The HiveWire figure line up that is created in house, is made natively for BOTH Poser and DS. We currently create the only "core figures" that are made for both. Our aim is to create thee content bridge to both software programs. V4 is only alive because folks here continue to create supporting content for her. Advancements for V4 from DAZ are long gone, hence G3. That is their advancement.

HiveWire continues development on Dawn, and Dusk, and our Baby Luna, and even our Horse. When a Dawn 2 is developed (which won't be for quite a while) we will make sure that existing UVs, and maps, and morphs and characters that are currently available for Dawn SE will still work for Dawn 2. Unlike others that make their supportive artist audience and customers abandon their work to support yet another new figure line up that changes quickly, making folks scramble to support the latest release figures. HiveWire is here for you for the long haul. We will continue to develop the best quality that we can, and make improvements on our figures so you can support them going forward. The kind folks here that run Rendo have asked for our latest Dawn and Dusk because more artists are supporting them and submitting content, so Rendo wanted our latest to test against. We've been more then happy to respond in the positive and provide our Dawn and Dusk for testers here.

If you want to look at the future core figure content that will continue to support Poser and Studio, look to HiveWire. Give us input for improvements that you need to see, and we'll do our best to make them so you as an artist and customer have a creative team that listens to you, and will grow with you.

The only thing that keeps me away from Hive3D are the prices. Seems that many of the former DAZ3D content artists that have migrated over to Hive3D have increased their prices....

Well, Khory_D, I would say the same of you. The workflow process in Poser has fundamentally changed over the past few versions - not that most vendors would be aware of this - most are unwilling to let go of Poser 6 and it's way of doing things. Many are working under the default assumption that everyone MUST work with a Daz figure. That isn't actually the case. Furthermore, vendors today have no clue as to what figures their clothing is going onto - I have dozens of outfits for V4 that have never been worn by V4, but have been worn by Dawn, or Olivia or Mariko or Roxy or Anastasia - get the point? Nor do vendors know if a V4 character was bought for the sole purpose of harvesting the skin textures for use on other figures - I do that all the time.

Poser has changed, even if vendors haven't - mainly due to SM listening to the customers. The reason we have the fitting room is due to vendor intransigence about making content for any figure NOT named V4. There are numerous other examples. The Copy Morphs From command, for example, means that vendors needn't bother with PBMs in clothing anymore. It would certainly save me the time of stripping them out of every single piece of clothing I own. And don't get me started on material files.

There is a rather valid reason why they are "unwilling to let go of poser 6" tech. It is because the poser user base is so fractured due to the ownership of a wide variety of versions and the size of the consumer base for those products that they need to support the least common denominator. Nor do they really care what final figure a product is used on. They sell a product for V4 and it is a V4 sale for them. What you do with it in the privacy of your own computer is not of interest to them overall. A beautiful render with the product used as sold is always a plus but not common enough to really be a big point for the vendors.

Figure fragmentation is what the thread was originally about. (Time to leave V4). As a Poser user, the issue is irrelevant. I can pull in both Poser compatible figures and the 1st 2 generations of genesis figures. Granted, I can't use the new fat chick, but I can live without her. BTW, just what is the difference between V7, Arabella 7, and Karen 7 - the promo's don't show me why I should buy it. And Josie 7 doesn't' seem to do anything that Josie 6 couldn't do, other than be a drain on my wallet.

As far as figure fragmentation happening.. Obviously from the vendor perspective they have two choices. One is to stick with the customer base that they have catered to and hope that the sales volume holds. You yourself have made the case that they don't need to support any figure other than v4 since people like yourself are using products on other characters. That way they can at least hope to maintain a similar income to what they are seeing today. The other option is to branch out into the growing Genesis market. That is evidenced by the increased support and continued support by vendors in this market place. In other words they see the income there that they need to make and so they continue on with those products. It boils down to continuing to support the generation 4 figures and hope that they maintain an income or move to the newer generations and increase income with that.

Of course there are some who are going to say "oh but the next big Daz killer is just on the horizon". It is possible that for the first time SM will hit it out of the park with a new and included as part of poser figure that will answer all the poser users prayers. Then all they have to do is get every poser user to upgrade to the newest version of poser so that they can have a broad enough market to make support for that figure viable for content providers. And then they have to hope that that market is as large as the current market for genesis products so that this new figure will be able to take a dominant stand in this market place. Should that actually happen I doubt it would be a Daz killer because unlike so many other players in this game Daz tends to be very pragmatic. If there really were a compelling figure that had the sales volume potential of genesis I suspect that you would see products in the Daz market place for it. No its never happened before, but then there has never been a compelling figure that had the base customer support to make that an appealing option for the Daz PA's. I don't actually expect that to happen of course because the odds of any character achieving the necessary numbers so that genesis content providers to move over long term are pretty low.

DS doesn't support capsule rigging or Poser's weight mapping (or any Poser 5 or later feature other than the ability to read .mc6 files), so I am not real sure how to get newer SM figures working DS. If there is a way to do it, I certainly wouldn't mind learning. I like my Asian characters to have black eyes as opposed to blue ones and be short, so just how do YOU get Miki 3 or 4 working in DS? Do tell.

Laughter.. Seriously you think I would pay for Miki anything? Are you under the impression that the only way to get an Asian character is with her? Because there are maybe a thousand other ways to whip up a short Asian woman with black eyes.

Whether or not a product is old doesn't prevent it's use - Which would you find more useful? - A new male suit with no movement morphs and only a couple of texture sets, or an old suit with many movement morphs and many texture sets. As an example, IMO, the Casablanca suit for M3 was the best suit ever made for Poser figures, as was the clothing made by Utilize for M3 (still being sold at Daz). Which is why all of my male figures are wearing them. Does Autofit work with Gen3 clothing? I haven't been successful, but it would not surprise me the least if I was doing something wrong - it isn't like there is a usable manual to go with DS.

Yes it works with gen3 clothing. Those are the suits I would use on Genesis. I've never found it difficult enough to require a manual though.

Nothing made for genesis comes even close to those "old" products. And those "old" products have texture templates - I have no idea where Daz is currently hiding those nowadays, I just know that before genesis rolled out the door, they were together with the clothing product, so the customer could download them in 1 go.

Then by all means use the old products if you want. I use them and everyone else I know falls back on them at times. I think though that sales numbers indicate your quite wrong about the newer products sold here and at other brokerages.

As far as templates for Daz products, I'm guessing you have not looked in your account/product library at the products. The templates are all downloadable there.

AFA "dig on studio" - its more like a dig on Daz's software "development" process such as it is and what there is of it. I am one of the many customers Daz cheated out of $150 out of with Cararra 6 upgrade fiasco and I have neither forgotten nor forgiven Daz for refusing to refund my money once they admitted that they lied to all of us about getting it to work in OSX. Or the fact that my copy of Hexagon wouldn't run in OSX for 4 years.

A shame about Hex. It is still my go to. When exactly was this Cararra 6 fiasco? Sometime around 2007 right? You are aware that the people who ran the company then are no longer with it any more and have not been for several years right? In fact it is a much different company since around 2011/2012. If you have a gripe that goes that far back your need to gripe against a whole different brokerage now.. or a comicon.

DS lacks features of Poser 5, never mind newer versions. The easiest example is the cloth room, but it isn't the only one - just the one I use the most - closely followed by the Fitting Room - the ability to easily update rigging (rigging got a whole lot easier in 2014), adding subdivision and weight mapping to legacy figures leverages the products I already own.

Much of what Studio "lacks" are things most users never bothered with anyway. I'm not sure why there needs to be a special "room" for fitting when it can be better integrated and that integration is hardly a lack. And I am sure your fully aware that Studio has done subdivision and weight mapping for years so there's that. Just as there are a few bits and bobs Poser has that Studio does not there are things missing from Poser that Studio does do. Different strokes for different folks really. I doubt those things are the real driving force as far as software choice goes much less character choice.

So tell me, using my example above - how would YOU get Miki 3 (capsule rigging) or Miki 4 (Poser Weight Mapped) (or a legacy rigged figure like Eroko - when she isn't tied up) dressed in a genesis 2 outfit? I haven't been able to figure out how to do it, and needless to say, there is nothing in the "document center" that explains how to do this. That is kinda important for what I do - I need all of my Star Trek characters in the same uniform (V4 Courageous & M4 Valiant is what I standardized on - that may change if I can figure out how to get some genesis 2 clothing working reliably in Poser - I will figure it out - there can only be so many wrong ways to do it.)

Well I wouldn't be dealing with Miki as I never wanted her but I could certainly use courageous and valiant on any of my genesis 1,2, or 3 characters. And um..wouldn't you just take which ever figure you wanted to use them on into the fit room and work it out there? I would assume that it replaces what auto fit does right?

AFA that 3 to 4 hundred dollars - you can start with Slosh's UV products and then get a full collection of Dimension3D's GenX2 products - that is right at 185 right there, now add in DraagonStorms texture Batch Conversion products. If there is a cheaper way to do it, I wouldn't mind seeing some documentation on it. (There's that pesky word again.) I probably did spend too much money on add-ons, but I couldn't get a handle on what I needed and what I didn't.

You don't actually have to buy those products. I've never bought GenX1 or 2 because I don't need to carry over exact morphs from one generation to the next. If I wanted to avail myself of exact copies of the thousands of available generation 4 morphs it would be money well spent or if I had a character in say a comic book that I needed to look identical it would be worth it. I'm just never needed that sort of exactness myself.

Sloshes products are a wonder if you have heavily invested in say Hero or Aiko etc, or if you just can't let go of some of those old skins from 10 years ago. It makes more available for expansion without question and I know that many people have taken advantage of that that had huge back stocks of characters from the past. For people heavily invested in previous generations it is actually a big money saver.

DraggonStorms batch converter is a wonderful time saver if you have scores of characters your moving over. But if your doing one or two its not really that complex to do if you have a general understanding of surfaces. Again it is money well spent if you have an extensive library of gen 4 products.

All three were product lines were huge sellers. Not because they were required but because they were time savers or pulled things out of the way back that people wanted to be able to continue to use. It was however choice based and not a requirement by any stretch of the imagination. They saved time or money and clearly many people found that more than worth the cost of the products.

AFA moving textures - yeah, I already own all of those products (TC1 & 2 and TT, and I work them like a rented mule). But that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.

Yes Victoria's are tall girls.. and Aiko's, and the younger characters and Stephanies tend to be short. So a few out of dozens are model tall. Which actually does not make her freakishly tall as models are not the tallest women nor are they freaks. It isn't as if she is pro bball tall, or even tall club tall. And I will let you in on a secret. Victoria's are scalable just like every other shape.. that means that can be as short or tall as you want in the end. And by the way, in my not so fictional world women are allowed to be tall and impressive. Tall women are not in fact "freaks".

Speaking of textures - where to get a wider variety of them? The pron industry maybe?

Only if you can convince them to do detailed photographs of the whole body under ideal lighting systems and forgo the cash that they would see from the sales of real porn. I seriously doubt the world of porn is going to step up and take an income cut just so we can have more texture resources.

I do agree with one thing ssgbryan bring ups: If all your characters are dial-spins, genesis 1/2 or generation3/4 -- they will look too similar. My hubby knows exactly nothing about Poser or Daz, except that I use it, but when I questioned him about which renders seemed to be using different base figures, he was pretty much on the money with his guesses when the characters were based on commonly used morph packs. The facial morphs are frequently just a tad too subtle, even at full strength.

However, as soon as you start mixing and matching some morphs by vendors who sculpt their own -- Capses, Joe Quick, and Cris Palomino come to mind, among others (Tempesta does some very original work, too as well as the team at RDNA), the appearance of the characters begins to look more and more distinct. Since I figured this out, I've been able to get as much distinct variety as I need with just V4 or genesis. Granted, I'm not illustrating a story with hundreds and hundreds of characters. But in over ten years, I haven't yet put the same character in more than one full sized and print ready render.

When it comes to variety for characters, I find hair to be the most limiting factor (and the lack of convincing facial hair in Poser). But perhaps that's just me. :)

Btw, Joe Quick's morph packs for Generation 4 Daz peeps are now free on ShareCG. I recommend them heartily.

I never hear anything about RDNA My Michelle. why ? and now there's a Steve also.

All this discussion is irrelevant: that is relevant is that vendors throughout the community are massively and increasingly offering Studio only content. Since they keep doing so, it is not a question of just testing the market but a sustained users preferences shift. That some prominent vendors have officially dropped Poser is just the icing on the cake.

chaecuna posted at 10:03AM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234862

All this discussion is irrelevant: that is relevant is that vendors throughout the community are massively and increasingly offering Studio only content. Since they keep doing so, it is not a question of just testing the market but a sustained users preferences shift. That some prominent vendors have officially dropped Poser is just the icing on the cake.

Well, that's the question -- in a nutshell. Is it in fact a "sustained users preference shift"? I think it probably is. But that doesn't mean that the loss of those customers is necessarily a huge hit to SM's bottom line, particularly if they were in the habit of upgrading their software once every ten years.

Again, possibly not a big problem for SM. But a big issue for Poser content vendors -- at least until the market stabilizes. And it will be some time before that happens.

RorrKonn posted at 9:26AM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234860

I never hear anything about RDNA My Michelle. why ? and now there's a Steve also.

Because RDNA caters to slightly more proficient Poser/DS users? Not to mention being a bit more "edgy" in their content?

I don't know - I use Michelle. I have 10 characters made for her. I use Blackhearted's Michelle Redux, as well as Kim as reoccurring characters.

I have Steve, but I haven't installed him yet - His gens is modeled in the base mesh which is going to be a problem in the Fitting Room. Hopefully my solution for Apollo Max will work (shrink the gens to 1% while in the fitting room).

ssgbryan posted at 2:49PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234917

RorrKonn posted at 9:26AM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234860

I never hear anything about RDNA My Michelle. why ? and now there's a Steve also.

Because RDNA caters to slightly more proficient Poser/DS users? Not to mention being a bit more "edgy" in their content?

I don't know - I use Michelle. I have 10 characters made for her. I use Blackhearted's Michelle Redux, as well as Kim as reoccurring characters.

I have Steve, but I haven't installed him yet - His gens is modeled in the base mesh which is going to be a problem in the Fitting Room. Hopefully my solution for Apollo Max will work (shrink the gens to 1% while in the fitting room).

The body and genitals are separate meshes saved as one object. Move the genitals and the hip mesh is sealed. So you could shrink into the body or create a new figure minus genitals for fitting clothing. hope the info is helpful

EldritchCellar posted at 2:01PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4232265

Betcha Dinoraul makes pretty decent coin with his Poser figures, fitting room not required, dson not required. Hell they even work in star trek renders with Poser 4 workflow. Lol. Artists like him probably sit back and laugh at the commentary of these ping pong matches. Strictly inna box, for all concerned players. Like horses chasing a carrot on a stick.

DinoRaul has no problem with this kind of issue because he niched out his product to NOT rely on Poser/DS FIGURES at all. Trees, animals, dinosaurs, landscapes and creatures that can work in most environments as STAND ALONEs. But can they? I am not sure if all his offerings are compatible with D/S. Does anyone here know for sure? I have a few of his figures for Poser and they are wonderful. I think he has migrated to DAZ and is offering a few items there but not sure for which environment they are for. One of the problems I am having is accepting that the vendors are creating really NICE looking stuff for D/S Genesis figures they did not also offer for Poser users. I am not talking about the GENESIS figures as much as but additional support stuff like sets, environments, tools accessories and hair products. For example I just saw a product at DAZ called something like 2 Creeks or 2 Streams. Great little nature set which I just can't get enough of because there are so damn few out there that are really nice. So when I see one I gotta have it. When I see there is no option for Poser....AT ALL!.... I get frustrated. Not as if anyone else is offering similar REALLY NICE similar options for Poser users ANYMORE, right? So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?

THE DSON sheitz sucks creepy dung bucket. I just spent three days getting someone at DAZ to walk me through the whole long dragged out, complex process of converting a DAZ hair product sold as a product I could use that DSON thing to work in Poser, that i purchased last year and only recently find out I can't. I was pissed we could not get anything to work. I got my apology from tech suppor/sales but asking if i could get credit for the product was denied. I am stuck with a product I purchased in good faith believing they had gotten their sheitz together on this whole DSON conversion thing when a year later i see it is NOT the case. I can see not wanting to refund or credit the price of the product if i was just NOT happy with it for any other reason. But not happy with the fact I CAN NOT CONVERT it as promised because their conversion product, ONLY AVAILABLE THERE, doesn't work just blows my mind. It shouldn't matter if is 30 days or a year later, It was purchased in good faith based on a promotional promise in writing on their product page which does not hold p to practice.

I can see if the only reason I go to DAZ is to complain in the forums or to get all their free stuff (which is less and less usable for me and other poser users as time goes by). They have held my credit card hostage (and happily so) since DAZ shot off from Zygote to feed us, the hungry Poser masses who put them on the map....we must remember. I ALWAYS felt DAZ offered great product and great service and rarely asked for a refund or credit on a product for reason of it not working. But this week I now feel otherwise. and of late that feeling has worsened. I don't know about you all but I don't use all the products i purchase within the required 30 days. Some products i purchase on sale when released as offered at a lower price and archive it for use when needed....sometimes years later.

For example, I have almost ALL the Mil3 figures and NEVER got to use them having gone from the well made and long used MIl2 figures to the Mil4 set when I finally migrated from Poser 4 to Poser 7 and PoserPro 2014. I have sets and environments I have yet to use also installing them as needed. Only yesterday I needed the DAZ eagle I purchased when it was first released a LOOOONG time ago and was frustrated the resource forks were gone from constant migration from computer to computer, OS to OS. I was pretty frustrated having to convert .pict and .BUM files fro old Poser days to .jpg files for PP2014 and no longer having the old MAT files to change textures for it I had to add the new converted textures by hand and save the character off to my Runtime again to get new links for the textures. Not being a power user or able to rescript the MAT files I had to do it the LOOOOONG way. Shudering at tha tprocess I thought of just re-loading the product from my purchase history. Right!?

I tried downloading a fresh copy of the old Eagle to get all the stuff i needed and got even angrier when I realized my order history only goes back so far and that purchase along with hundreds of others was made BEFORE the order history was created. DAZ support did go back to find the analog orders but they did not go back far enough to ZYGOTE archives to help me. Had I not been a long time customer of thousands of dollars spent there and showed them my upgrade for the Eagle2 from Eagle 1 and the Expansion breed Pak for Eagle 1 in my history I would have been SOL and either been sent packing or forced to buy everything I needed AGAIN. As it turned out i got a credit for the Eagle 1and the expansion pak and used that money to get the Eagle 2 expansion pak and reloaded the Eagle 2 which I got as an upgrade from Eagle 1. Freaking Mess. By the time I was done with all that I lost my desire to do the render. Did some shots and went to bed! :(

I will not go to D/S and Genesis figures and I will not buy any more figures at all because I have WAAAAAAY to much invested in the older ones. Not a Power Poser user much of what poser has available to those who can wrap their creative/technical brains around its functions, I don't know how to do all the more advanced optional things mentioned here like re-purposing clothes from one figure to another, the cloth room, the hair room, the magnets and morph tools, etc.. If it isn't available to use out of the box won't do it. I have not been able to totally accept the notion of the forced obsolescence in working with this technology. We either suck it up and learn to tolerate for the sake of continuing our picture thing, or we leave the whole darn frustrating and expensive thing behind (which I am more and more migrating toward) and find another hobby like bird watching or squirrel feeding in the park. Sorry for the rant.....dinner time!

RorrKonn posted at 3:37PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234664

adh3d posted at 1:50AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234636

You have to understand taht , since DAZ3d create Daz Studio, DAZ3d is not only a content creator, is a software competitor for SM, so, how can SM let their competitor include a part of software in Poser, it had been a suicide.

I have to add that if DAZ3d had wanted to make a figure compatible with Poser, the could do that just making two versions, genesis for DS and, we can say , V5 for Poser, using Poser weight mapping, but Daz take a way, and it is their own way, create content for their own software.

I get what your saying but DAZ was the driving force behind Poser since V1 days. Poser has been bolt n sold multiple times. Just about ever version of Poser has a deferent company backing it. And those companies always abandoned us. Vendors came n went. The only constant in the last decade + is DAZ. DAZ made Poser ,not what ever company just happened to own it that week. With out DAZ there would be no Poser like we know today.

I was around during what we called the main App's 3D Wars. There's a old abandoned Truspace 7 ,now free. That will never be upgraded again and sooner or latter will not work on modern OS's. Truespaces name will fade away but Truespace is one of the founding fathers of 3D. Back in the Poser 3 days Softimage was the King of 3D. Now Softimage R.I.P. Lightwave is nothing what it once was. Adobe is nothing what it once was.

Truspace ,Softimage ,Lightwave .Where all greater App's then Poser.

Actually it was Zygote from what little memory serves me and that isn't much nowadays, that made Poser. And if i can still draw from that faulty memory) and I am sure if wrong here I will certainly get "wet Noodled" as the saying was then, Didn't Zygote actually create the original Poser on-board figures? When They saw where the poser community was taking the app they saw potential dollars there and DAZ was born. Not long after Poser 4 released and DAZ took hold Mil1 figures were birthed and welcomed in the community as being so much more beautiful and realistic compared to the ugly Posette and Dork figures prior. Well, at least I thought so so much in fact i till use them from time to time in my renders. You won't see me using Posette or Dork anytime soon...or EVER again!!!

As far as those apps you mention they may have been greater than Poser but you fail to recognize the niche poser catered to: guys and gals like me, amateur users who used it as a replacement to drawing or photography to create images (even as an artist myself I will no longer call my renders "ART" anymore!). As an image maker like me, there are many many other poser users who are NOT Power users, we can't wrap our brains around script, and code adjusting in wordpad, Pythoning this and that, learning magnets and morph tools, hair room functions, cloth room functions, animation or advanced Material room uses. Never mind the higher end functions I have enviously read about in this thread that would allow me to migrate clothes and textures from one DAZ figure to another third party one. I have purchase dso damn many characters that looked good and regretted it when i realized there was and would NEVER be community support for them. And for non Power users like me that is a death nill regarding continued use of a product limited in use to fulfill my needs as a Poser users. If not ready with everything i need pretty much out of the box I will not buy it until I see who else is impressed by it enough to add more support for it for ALL of us to buy into.

meatSim posted at 3:55PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4232449

the one thing with 'Leaving V4' is.. well what are you getting out of it, and what is it costing you. Is there really that much content being cranked out for other figures that is -that- much different than whats available for v4? Of course the newer figures themselves have lots of advantages over v4 BUT.. I find a lot of those advantages are kind of hidden once you make use of all your content (Ie.. clothe the poor girl!) Usually for me, the point comes to start using a new figure when there is a piece of content that I MUST have and its not available for a figure that i do already have.

THere are a few here who know me and my obsessive coveting of certain iconic figures of human history. One such figure is the Centaur and another is the Minotaur. When I was drawing and painting I did many images with these figures in place. I have collected furtively these same figures for use in Poser. I have been left wanting since Poser 4. Now that DAZ no longer supports Poser users with product compatible OUT OF THE BOX natively i see a Minotaur figure, the most coveted by me, finally available but only for D/S and with interface available ONLY with Genesis figures. When DAZ offshot from Zygote and started their much touted "unimesh" figures I thought back then, very excitedly that my days of waiting were over. That this new "unimesh" technology would now perhaps catch on allowing good content creators to start moving those meshes around to create new and exciting content realistic enough to use side by side with the more realistic Mil1 &2 figures in Poser.

Man was I freaking Wrong. When they finally got it right it is only for D/S and not for Poser. If I could wrap my dying gray matter around it and if i could afford re-buying all the content I have for use exclusively in D/S, I would but I can't so i have to give up my covetous ways and forget about seeing what DAZ is no longer offering the likes of me as a Poser user set in his albeit limited ways and with a huge lump of money invested in this hobby (yeah, I said invested because that is exactly what it has come to be). Because the heart can not covet what the eye doesn't see i go to DAZ less and less these days to avoid the sadness of never being able to have those gret little things i have always wanted to use in Poser.

I gotta say, that I did find a great solution for that Unavailable Genesis based Minotaur For D/S in Sharky's offering of the Minotaur for the mil4 figures and glad at least someone in the community is thinking of me LOL.

RorrKonn posted at 4:35PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234492

Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.

DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to

Smith Micro is not a vendor. None of the companies that owned Poser ever was a vendor. 90%+ of Poser users has always depended on DAZ n Vicky.

Adobe is a software company. It does not make content either.

But, man, if you couldn't open, say TIFs with it or NEFs or TGAs or some other very commonly used file types within that industry, it would rapidly lose customers to the free software that does open those files -- except that with 2d files, it's possible to convert from one format to another easily. Moreover, it is possible to create content from scratch with nothing but Adobe software.

With Poser, you can create poses and materials using only Poser. But not models (unless you make them out of primitives). So SM is in a fairly unique position: they don't sell much supporting content for software that can't be used to create its own.

At some point, once you start using other software to create content -- because YOU HAVE TO -- isn't there always the chance that you might pose and render in that software as well? Unless Poser can keep up with future advances in full featured modelling software -- which is has so far, granted -- I'm wondering why any new customer would buy it at all.

The bigger issue is that it's also always possible that a large portion of Poser owners only bought or used the software in order to create content for it. If those people aren't planning on creating more content for Poser, they won't be buying Poser 11, either. Every vendor (or even freebie maker) who goes wholeheartedly over to making Daz Studio content is another customer lost to SM.

I think the technical term for what's about to happen is a downward spiral.

At one time Photoshop cost to much now it's dirt cheap n there running specials all the time. Now there having difficulties giving Photoshop away.Wonder if all the $50 2D app's have anything to do with that.

ah Poser has never keeped up ,not even close.Not geting SubD's untill 2014 just says it all.

No I'm not exporting a character out of Houdini a $4500 app that has a $200 indie license to Posers.

Actually I won't buy PhotoShop again. I got the last version in the bundle set a CX version and have owned ALL the versions from PSD1. But I get miffed when I gotta RENT an application or use it "from the cloud"paying on a month to month basis. I want it in my computer or computers around the house without worrying about internet connectivity or traffic to "git'erDone"! When they changed their use options for new and old users a lot of users not using it professionally and needing it for well known compatible industry standard functionality are migrating to other apps. Greed in the long run hurts the bottom line. Im just not convinced it was expediency and end user ease of use that motored their business engine as much as believing they could make more money on their product(s).

Though Poser content sucks and has from the beginning. When DAZ put 1 out there and the follow-up Millenium mesh products all the people in these here forums went with their product. I see very little imagery created in Poser that includes their pipeline products. I personally think the on-board characters for poser are ugly and lacking in quality build and texturing compared to the DAZ products I have used.