"I think that some vendors just got lazy"

No, it's more like, Hey, bikini sets sell really well! I'll make one of those! And before long, the MP is glutted with 300 bikini sets, all of which are pretty much interchangeable — and as a result, unless someone is really into bikinis, I doubt many of them sold that well.

The M4 stuff? Yes, sad to say, but lots of dreck out there, stuff that doesnt come close to the attention to detail that folks pour into stuff for the ladies. For the women, you will see every curve followed with almost loving determination and obsession. But pants for Michael? (I mean, forget about getting anything for any other male mesh.) A couple of stovepipes and something at the top to connect them. It's incredibly frustrating to see a vendor that will do stuff for the women that is truly spectacular — but for the guys? Broken seams. Tiled textures. I've said in these fora a couple of times that maybe it's just time for both Poser and DAZ to just give up on male characters. So few people are that interested, so no one's really going to miss them that much when they're finally dead and gone.

And then we can get even more bikini sets!

I'm grateful to everyone who supports Poser because I can use that stuff in Carrara 7Pro.

I recently got a new tower and finally used my upgrade to C8.5 Pro, so now I can use DUF format items and Genesis 1 & 2.

I wished Daz would spend more energy building their product line by pushing the existing tech to the limit BEFORE switching to a new character. V4 to this day, still has vendors that are making more and more realistic looking morphs for her (look at the Immortal Twins' Kim K). I look at Genesis 2 and think how long they could have built that platform out. They really didn't push it anywhere.

I get shouted down often when I voice that opinion.

Tsarlet, IMHO, you have to understand that all DAZ wants to do right now is just push content out the door. There have been rumours (and I will repeat: rumours) that they're not doing well as a company financially, so they need every sale they can get. They dont have time to develop the tech because they need the cash now.

I just find it odd myself that they're charging full ticket for stuff for character meshes you cant even get anymore. Why would anyone pay full price for Michael 3 clothing or Vicky 3 hair at this point? And yet DAZ thinks they will. Highly odd.

Oh well, back to looking through the Marketplace here and seeing if there's much beyond bikinis and lingerie and "hawt sexy stuff!". Not a whole lot, to be honest.

SeanMartin posted at 9:06PM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317503

Tsarlet, IMHO, you have to understand that all DAZ wants to do right now is just push content out the door. There have been rumours (and I will repeat: rumours) that they're not doing well as a company financially, so they need every sale they can get. They dont have time to develop the tech because they need the cash now.

I just find it odd myself that they're charging full ticket for stuff for character meshes you cant even get anymore. Why would anyone pay full price for Michael 3 clothing or Vicky 3 hair at this point? And yet DAZ thinks they will. Highly odd.

Oh well, back to looking through the Marketplace here and seeing if there's much beyond bikinis and lingerie and "hawt sexy stuff!". Not a whole lot, to be honest.

I do not know how Daz is doing but what I know is that there are so many complaints everywhere that there is not enough Poser stuff anymore so they would be foolish NOT to push their Poser content.

Raindrop, the excuse they give on that is "No one tells our vendors what platform to work in". Uh huh, and I really buy that.

SeanMartin posted at 6:34AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317565

Raindrop, the excuse they give on that is "No one tells our vendors what platform to work in". Uh huh, and I really buy that.

Then once again, they don't. Please don't spread misinformation. It seems like when it comes to this part of the market, people forget that like there are things such as supply and demand that dictate what is produced. I make mostly male characters because I want to, not because I'm told to... and because i make them a certain way the quality and features behind them in addition to the platform to allow me to make male characters that I couldn't dream of with M4, I get return on my investment. Other vendors will make what they want and what sells as well; and that goes for any brokerage.

Male_M3dia posted at 12:48PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317574

SeanMartin posted at 6:34AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317565

Raindrop, the excuse they give on that is "No one tells our vendors what platform to work in". Uh huh, and I really buy that.

Then once again, they don't. Please don't spread misinformation. It seems like when it comes to this part of the market, people forget that like there are things such as supply and demand that dictate what is produced. I make mostly male characters because I want to, not because I'm told to... and because i make them a certain way the quality and features behind them in addition to the platform to allow me to make male characters that I couldn't dream of with M4, I get return on my investment. Other vendors will make what they want and what sells as well; and that goes for any brokerage.

Well said.

If it were a question of character meshes and clothing, where the two are now totally incompatible, I'd believe you. But when it comes down to some pretty simple tweaks to the textures for a prop with zero rigging? You're telling me that not one single merchant at DAZ, in the past four or five years, thought there was a market for any Poser materials for something that simple? Not one?

The whole supply-and-demand thing is a bit of a canard, sorry. It's like this place.The logic would seem to be: Men's stuff rarely sells because no one's interested in men's stuff because there isnt much out there because it doesnt sell — the prophesy can only self-fulfill so many times. If it's not out there, of course it isnt going to sell. But this is such a niche market with, according to one vendor who's been in this game for a really long time, a shrinking marketbase... so a vendor is going to say, "Well, I dont really need to make those additional sales that would come from providing this in both platforms"? Seriously?

Sorry, I really do not buy it. That makes zero business sense. Of course, we're also talking about a platform where backwards compatability has now also been brought into question — essentially telling the user base, "Sure, we know you dropped serious coin on all that stuff that worked in previous versions of Stdio, but, hey, we dont care! Start over, ya losers!", even as they wonder why people still make things for V4 and M4.

THere is just so much about this business model that boggles my mind.

SeanMartin posted at 12:49PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317565

Raindrop, the excuse they give on that is "No one tells our vendors what platform to work in". Uh huh, and I really buy that.

And how do you come by that information regarding Daz and how they are doing and what they tell their vendors what platform to work in? Demand and supply is the key word here and, if I was a vendor, I would create the items that make me money. Nothing wrong with that. It is a job. I think you would choose a job that makes you the most money too. Creating content is a job.

SeanMartin posted at 9:44AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317577

If it were a question of character meshes and clothing, where the two are now totally incompatible, I'd believe you. But when it comes down to some pretty simple tweaks to the textures for a prop with zero rigging? You're telling me that not one single merchant at DAZ, in the past four or five years, thought there was a market for any Poser materials for something that simple? Not one?

Again, you're forgetting supply and demand... and figures drive everything else including props and scenes because those figures need places to be in and things to hold. But making props in DS is different than in poser since you don't have to strip out code in the pp2 file to get it to pass qa which is extra work. And that extra work did not translate to enough sales to make it worth vendors' while.. and that includes materials because yes, those vendors DID make exactly what you're trying to say they didn't years ago and the sales weren't worth the effort.

The whole supply-and-demand thing is a bit of a canard, sorry. It's like this place.The logic would seem to be: Men's stuff rarely sells because no one's interested in men's stuff because there isnt much out there because it doesnt sell — the prophesy can only self-fulfill so many times. If it's not out there, of course it isnt going to sell. But this is such a niche market with, according to one vendor who's been in this game for a really long time, a shrinking marketbase... so a vendor is going to say, "Well, I dont really need to make those additional sales that would come from providing this in both platforms"? Seriously?

It's not going to make sense if you insist on making it an emotional issue rather than a logical business decision. Male items are not going to sell as much as female items, but if you make good male items can get return on your investment.. but you have to settle for lower amounts of sales due to demand. Same with materials, if you're not selling enough to recoup the time for you to open (or even buy) Poser and make a bunch of material files then QA them, then they aren't going to be made. Again, won't make sense if you refuse to logically look at the effort it takes to do the work.

Sorry, I really do not buy it. That makes zero business sense. Of course, we're also talking about a platform where backwards compatability has now also been brought into question — essentially telling the user base, "Sure, we know you dropped serious coin on all that stuff that worked in previous versions of Stdio, but, hey, we dont care! Start over, ya losers!", even as they wonder why people still make things for V4 and M4.

It's not going to make business sense because quite frankly, you aren't in the business thus you don't know the process and time it takes to make these items. Not everyone can do this and even less can make a good living from it.. so choices have to be made. This is why these threads keep popping up as if someone's argument not based in fact would sway vendors to lose money. Vendors have expenses to pay for and a living to make. I have to pay a back a loan I had to take out to bury my mom, and that requires me to make choices about what I know will put money in my bank account, and those decisions comes from what my sales and experience tells me, not from someone that doesn't understand the process, but wants to dictate what vendors should be doing. So really, that's all you should need to understand from this, unless you're willing to try to sell products yourself and see how easy this isn't.

Also again, the platform does allow you to reuse products from Gen4, I've reused shirts, boots and undies from M4 and all the Genesis men. I'm also sad because I can't use my David 3 thong for my genesis men in Promos anymore because it shows too much butt cheek ;)

"so choices have to be made"

Yeah, more bikini sets and lingerie... wow. Some choice.

And no, dude, I'm not making it an "emotional issue". I"m looking at a business model where vendors are apparently saying, "Oh, I dont want the additional income!" As a publisher, I can just say, "Well, the paper version of this book is good enough!" and totally lose out on the sale that would come from the extra work needed to create a version for both the Nook and the Kindle. Yeah, it takes time to do it right — probably a day for a small book, as long as two weeks for a larger one — but it's worth having it out there. When a new version of Creative Suite comes out, yes, I have to weigh the pros and cons of upgrading, but I usually do, every other version, because sufficient tools have been introduced to make it worth the money. It's called a business expense, and it makes me a bit more versatile at what I can do for my clients. In that regard, I picked up Poser's latest pro version for ninety-nine bucks. That would be a pretty cheap business expense.

The backwards compatibility issue comes with files created in Studio 3 that can no longer be opened in 4.9 (or so I have read, please correct me if I"m in error on that). I dont know who made that bonehead decision, but there it is. And every time DAZ releases yet another hootchie-mama, I constantly read on these fora that nothing from previous hootchie-mamas will work on the new one. They seem to have corrected that, a bit, with this Gen 8 and Gen 2 talking to each other, but apparently 3 through 7 are SOL. I wonder how much people invested those. Sure, M3 stuff wont work on M4 stuff — but I have tools at my command that can bridge that gap and extend them even further. But DAZ reinvents its character tech every six months, so taking something you shelled out twenty bucks and some change for Genesis 4 will no longer work with Genesis 8 because the adaptors arent in place for it to do it properly.

So explain to me again what I dont "get" about this mysterious industry. Perhaps if we are all so enlightened, then the recurrence of threads like this, which appear to vex you so, will go away. But I'd also ask to remember: when DAZ first introduced Studio, it ran around to every fora out there and, with hug and a wide smile, said, "We wont abandon the Poser base that made us successful."

And yet they have done exactly that.

SeanMartin posted at 5:41PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317609

"so choices have to be made"

Yeah, more bikini sets and lingerie... wow. Some choice.

As long as people are willing to pay for it over a men's business suit, it will be made. That's supply and demand.

And no, dude, I'm not making it an "emotional issue". I"m looking at a business model where vendors are apparently saying, "Oh, I dont want the additional income!" As a publisher, I can just say, "Well, the paper version of this book is good enough!" and totally lose out on the sale that would come from the extra work needed to create a version for both the Nook and the Kindle. Yeah, it takes time to do it right — probably a day for a small book, as long as two weeks for a larger one — but it's worth having it out there. When a new version of Creative Suite comes out, yes, I have to weigh the pros and cons of upgrading, but I usually do, every other version, because sufficient tools have been introduced to make it worth the money. It's called a business expense, and it makes me a bit more versatile at what I can do for my clients. In that regard, I picked up Poser's latest pro version for ninety-nine bucks. That would be a pretty cheap business expense.

It's not additional income if it costs more than not doing it. Working an extra 2 hours every day doesn't mean much if you're not getting paid for it, but the boss sure appreciates it. That's in essence what you're trying to convey. Back when PAs were making items with Poser companion files, a lot of them found that the difference between making them and not making them was something like 10 copies.. yes, 10 copies. Very low return for hours of extra work to make materials look the same in different rendering engines. That's really the part you need to understand why it wasn't feasible businesswise to keep supporting something that didn't bring in a return on investment. A better use of that time is to simply make a new product at that point because the return is greater.

The backwards compatibility issue comes with files created in Studio 3 that can no longer be opened in 4.9 (or so I have read, please correct me if I"m in error on that). I dont know who made that bonehead decision, but there it is. And every time DAZ releases yet another hootchie-mama, I constantly read on these fora that nothing from previous hootchie-mamas will work on the new one. They seem to have corrected that, a bit, with this Gen 8 and Gen 2 talking to each other, but apparently 3 through 7 are SOL. I wonder how much people invested those. Sure, M3 stuff wont work on M4 stuff — but I have tools at my command that can bridge that gap and extend them even further. But DAZ reinvents its character tech every six months, so taking something you shelled out twenty bucks and some change for Genesis 4 will no longer work with Genesis 8 because the adaptors arent in place for it to do it properly.

And the update of python in Poser 8 or 9 broke a lot of plugins that were never updated by vendors. What exactly is your point? Also I think you're trying to make an assertion without understanding why it was done. You're speaking of scene files in DS3 which were never portable, were hard to make by content creators, and the way they were made you could easily have them corrupted. DS4, once the DSON spec was created had an offical standard for scenes and objects in it (since DSON is a scene specification language that DS never had) and the old clunky way of making scenes (which consisted of many .dso files) was depreciated. Before the old scene files were depreciated, you did have the chance to load older files and save them so they could be used in later versions of DS.. so if you waited 7 years to decide to update, yeah you can't load them, but then in the software industry this is nothing new. So it wasn't a bonehead decision, DAZ Studio actually can create a scene that you can load on another computer or just move to another location on your computer, which it didn't have in previous versions. That would actually be an improvement.

Again as far as compatibility, you're not out of luck upgrading genesis to G8.. you can do it for free by autofitting M4 to genesis, then manually autofit the same outfit to a different genesis figure until you get to Genesis 8. That's how I got my D3 thong onto Genesis 8 male. So you're asserting something that isn't true. Male items do very well with autofit, since most of items aren't high heels or dresses. That's how i get my hair, pants, shirts and undies upgraded...

So explain to me again what I dont "get" about this mysterious industry. Perhaps if we are all so enlightened, then the recurrence of threads like this, which appear to vex you so, will go away. But I'd also ask to remember: when DAZ first introduced Studio, it ran around to every fora out there and, with hug and a wide smile, said, "We wont abandon the Poser base that made us successful."

And yet they have done exactly that.

This is beating the dead horse because they never said they would never abandon poser users. They said they will support poser, but since they don't make the majority of their products they could never make eternal promises and force vendors to make products for any particular software. Besides, even if they put out a single product a month that had could be used in poser, that would be support from them; they never promised to have page upon page of poser products for people to not buy or wishlist. The bottom line is, you use the software that you're comfortable with and you live with the things that choice offers. We're seven years later into this argument where DAZ offered the tech to SM and they didn't want it for the many reasons that's been debated ad nauseum. SM is ultimately responsible for your content needs, so rather than complain and worry about DAZ3D is doing, that focus needs to go to SM. If they can't provide what you need, then you need to withhold your dollars from them and take them to task until they give you what you need. It seems like people are harder on the company that didn't make their software than the one that did, and I feel that's why you're not getting what you need. A competitor ultimately doesn't owe you a thing. Continuously badmouthing a competing company will get you no closer to getting the content you need, besides this type of app war discussion is against this site's TOS anyway.

Let's shift the convo back towards positively getting what you need without talking about other companies.

SeanMartin posted at 1:11AM Thu, 09 November 2017 - #4317609

"so choices have to be made"

Yeah, more bikini sets and lingerie... wow. Some choice.

And no, dude, I'm not making it an "emotional issue". I"m looking at a business model where vendors are apparently saying, "Oh, I dont want the additional income!" As a publisher, I can just say, "Well, the paper version of this book is good enough!" and totally lose out on the sale that would come from the extra work needed to create a version for both the Nook and the Kindle. Yeah, it takes time to do it right — probably a day for a small book, as long as two weeks for a larger one — but it's worth having it out there. When a new version of Creative Suite comes out, yes, I have to weigh the pros and cons of upgrading, but I usually do, every other version, because sufficient tools have been introduced to make it worth the money. It's called a business expense, and it makes me a bit more versatile at what I can do for my clients. In that regard, I picked up Poser's latest pro version for ninety-nine bucks. That would be a pretty cheap business expense.

The backwards compatibility issue comes with files created in Studio 3 that can no longer be opened in 4.9 (or so I have read, please correct me if I"m in error on that). I dont know who made that bonehead decision, but there it is. And every time DAZ releases yet another hootchie-mama, I constantly read on these fora that nothing from previous hootchie-mamas will work on the new one. They seem to have corrected that, a bit, with this Gen 8 and Gen 2 talking to each other, but apparently 3 through 7 are SOL. I wonder how much people invested those. Sure, M3 stuff wont work on M4 stuff — but I have tools at my command that can bridge that gap and extend them even further. But DAZ reinvents its character tech every six months, so taking something you shelled out twenty bucks and some change for Genesis 4 will no longer work with Genesis 8 because the adaptors arent in place for it to do it properly.

So explain to me again what I dont "get" about this mysterious industry. Perhaps if we are all so enlightened, then the recurrence of threads like this, which appear to vex you so, will go away. But I'd also ask to remember: when DAZ first introduced Studio, it ran around to every fora out there and, with hug and a wide smile, said, "We wont abandon the Poser base that made us successful."

And yet they have done exactly that.

I am very sorry SeanMartin but all I read from you is that you do not want to see bikinis and lingerie and sexy girls, well, many like those products and that is why you see so many of them. If they would not sell the vendors would not create them. Is it DAZ3D fold that pose is way behind in technology by now? I really wonder what your gripe is, is it that you do not like Daz Studio, is it that you do not like Daz3d or is it that you do not find enough products that you like for poser. Every time you post it is about sexy female characters, bikinis and lingerie. I do not know what kind of images you create but I am sure there is plenty of other stuff iin the stores that are not the ones you so dislike.

Male_M3dia posted at 5:41AM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317621

And yet they have done exactly that.

This is beating the dead horse because they never said they would never abandon poser users.

Bull. They said exactly that. Wander back into the fora in the days of the first DAZ release, and you will find those exact words from them. They ran around to every forum out there and repeated it, almost relentlessly, because they knew, even then, that it was a possible PR disaster waiting to happen. For crying out loud, you dont tell the market that made you the company you are that you're no longer interested in their business. How idiotic would that be?

Raindroptheelf posted at 5:45AM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317625

I am very sorry SeanMartin but all I read from you is that you do not want to see bikinis and lingerie and sexy girls, well, many like those products and that is why you see so many of them. If they would not sell the vendors would not create them.

Right. Tell me there's such a massive market for such a repetitive format, since so many of them find their way into clearance sometimes weeks after release. But then it comes back to the same circular logic, doesnt it. All people will create are images of "sexy" women, when all that's available for them to work with is "sexy women stuff". Some of you vendors cant even put a simple prop out there without adding a "sexy" broad, even if it doesnt make sense. Believe it or not, there are times when sex isnt helping your case any, especially when it looks so blatant.

And yeah, I get tired of it. Thanks to this kind of attitude, people have taken a software that could have been innovative on so many levels and reduced it to soft core porn disguised as "art". These days, the MP doesnt even pretend to be anything but T&A. That whole "the beauty of female form as celebrated in art blah blah blah" line is now completely out the window because it got edged out by a relentless parade of "sexy" this and "hot" that and "alluring" that over there. A Vegas hooker catalog couldnt do much better.

Well, congrats, Hope it works for you. But when the vendors are whining that sales are down, you'll forgive me if I look at all of you and shake my head. You guys created this monster, now you have to live with it. Good going.

SeanMartin posted at 1:03PM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317989

Raindroptheelf posted at 5:45AM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317625

I am very sorry SeanMartin but all I read from you is that you do not want to see bikinis and lingerie and sexy girls, well, many like those products and that is why you see so many of them. If they would not sell the vendors would not create them.

Right. Tell me there's such a massive market for such a repetitive format, since so many of them find their way into clearance sometimes weeks after release. But then it comes back to the same circular logic, doesnt it. All people will create are images of "sexy" women, when all that's available for them to work with is "sexy women stuff". Some of you vendors cant even put a simple prop out there without adding a "sexy" broad, even if it doesnt make sense. Believe it or not, there are times when sex isnt helping your case any, especially when it looks so blatant.

And yeah, I get tired of it. Thanks to this kind of attitude, people have taken a software that could have been innovative on so many levels and reduced it to soft core porn disguised as "art". These days, the MP doesnt even pretend to be anything but T&A. That whole "the beauty of female form as celebrated in art blah blah blah" line is now completely out the window because it got edged out by a relentless parade of "sexy" this and "hot" that and "alluring" that over there. A Vegas hooker catalog couldnt do much better.

Well, congrats, Hope it works for you. But when the vendors are whining that sales are down, you'll forgive me if I look at all of you and shake my head. You guys created this monster, now you have to live with it. Good going.

You know SeanMartin, it is not worth my time to carry on with this discussion as you keep on saying the same things about your dislike reg. the products in the marketplace. Sorry it is not to your taste, but , even when I repeat myself, it is what is in demand and NO, we do not create images because there is nothing else for us to work with, no, we create images with the products that we like and that is why you see so many of those products in the MP. I am not saying anything anymore because it will go on and on and on with you not liking sexy ladies and outfits and us telling you that 3d Creators want to make money. Do not tell me you take a badly paid job over a well-paid job. Enough said I rest my case.

Male_M3dia posted at 10:54AM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317621

[snip] The bottom line is, you use the software that you're comfortable with and you live with the things that choice offers. We're seven years later into this argument where DAZ offered the tech to SM and they didn't want it for the many reasons that's been debated ad nauseum. SM is ultimately responsible for your content needs, so rather than complain and worry about DAZ3D is doing, that focus needs to go to SM. If they can't provide what you need, then you need to withhold your dollars from them and take them to task until they give you what you need. It seems like people are harder on the company that didn't make their software than the one that did, and I feel that's why you're not getting what you need. A competitor ultimately doesn't owe you a thing. Continuously badmouthing a competing company will get you no closer to getting the content you need, besides this type of app war discussion is against this site's TOS anyway.

Let's shift the convo back towards positively getting what you need without talking about other companies.

This right here is the true issue. If Poser users are not getting what they want for their software then the issue is with the software. Get SM to find out how to address the needs, they need to invest into the research and find a way to get that content created; i.e. buyouts, expanding their content into other stores to generate interest, commissioning, releasing or commissioning content for tutorials, resources etc. Except that they can't because quite frankly they killed the software when they refused to work with DAZ any longer. Getting rid of their entire Poser department says a lot about their view regarding the value & stability of Poser going forward and frankly you can't expect vendors to back a lame horse.

If people were actually purchasing Poser products as they used to, not just when they are on sale, clearance or marked extremely low, then the Poser market would have continued to thrive. But let's be realistic here, the most viable & accepted figure for Poser (used the most, supported the most) is still the DAZ created Victoria 4 and she was released early 2007. Once SM and DAZ stopped working together Poser began to die. It can't survive without DAZ content because they've never learned to create decent forward content for their software and have always relied on "the kindness of strangers" to do so.

SeanMartin posted at 1:03PM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317989

Raindroptheelf posted at 5:45AM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317625

I am very sorry SeanMartin but all I read from you is that you do not want to see bikinis and lingerie and sexy girls, well, many like those products and that is why you see so many of them. If they would not sell the vendors would not create them.

Right. Tell me there's such a massive market for such a repetitive format, since so many of them find their way into clearance sometimes weeks after release. But then it comes back to the same circular logic, doesnt it. All people will create are images of "sexy" women, when all that's available for them to work with is "sexy women stuff". Some of you vendors cant even put a simple prop out there without adding a "sexy" broad, even if it doesnt make sense. Believe it or not, there are times when sex isnt helping your case any, especially when it looks so blatant.

And yeah, I get tired of it. Thanks to this kind of attitude, people have taken a software that could have been innovative on so many levels and reduced it to soft core porn disguised as "art". These days, the MP doesnt even pretend to be anything but T&A. That whole "the beauty of female form as celebrated in art blah blah blah" line is now completely out the window because it got edged out by a relentless parade of "sexy" this and "hot" that and "alluring" that over there. A Vegas hooker catalog couldnt do much better.

Well, congrats, Hope it works for you. But when the vendors are whining that sales are down, you'll forgive me if I look at all of you and shake my head. You guys created this monster, now you have to live with it. Good going.

So much anger and aggression isn't going to alter anything. Nothing goes into clearance after a few weeks, that's an automated process that takes months per product not selling a single copy.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a lot of "sexy" content in the store. But like it or not it sells. If enough people actually cared as passionately as you do they would buy the other items, and there are plenty of items in the store that aren't lingerie or swimsuits. Lots of things that can even mix and match well to create some awesome looks.

As for sales being down, that has more to do with store policies than lack of interest and truth is that if sales are low on studio products they are abysmal on Poser ones. (yes I did release a poser product this year to test that).

You've been arguing that vendors should support Poser for 5 months in this thread now, at some point you have to decide how much time & energy you want to put into fussing over this and aggravating yourself no end, or you can make a choice, either; A. accept that you pretty much have everything already with over 10 years of product creation for the Generation 4 figures or B. you can learn a new software and move forward. In truth the responsibility for your software choice lies with you, lack of forward moving content lies with SM.

Of course there is an alternative, open your own Poser content only storefront and prove you're right.

SeanMartin posted at 3:11AM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4317988

Male_M3dia posted at 5:41AM Wed, 15 November 2017 - #4317621

And yet they have done exactly that.

This is beating the dead horse because they never said they would never abandon poser users.

Bull. They said exactly that. Wander back into the fora in the days of the first DAZ release, and you will find those exact words from them. They ran around to every forum out there and repeated it, almost relentlessly, because they knew, even then, that it was a possible PR disaster waiting to happen. For crying out loud, you dont tell the market that made you the company you are that you're no longer interested in their business. How idiotic would that be?

Again, this is beating a dead horse and this isn't how any reasonable company operates, especially with a management change. New management isn't beholden to any old policies or support anyway.

As 3D-Arena and I has said, you're responsible for your software choice, and SM is responsible for content needs. This "he said/she said" argument is unproductive when you're taking the wrong company to task for your needs. So you have three choices 1) Continue to use the software you want, but not have the content you need unless you take your complaints to that company, 2) Learn new software that will give you the content you want for the money you're willing to spend, or 3) learn to make content yourself. There isn't a choice to blame DAZ3D to force vendors into making poser stuff; DAZ doesn't force vendors to makes things so your suggestion would actually make them start and that isn't going to happen otherwise they would lose their vendors. I know I was done with M4 the second I could make a shorter or taller male with a custom body shape without pestering vendors to add custom fits to their clothing to accomodate that.

I think there may be a difference in Philosophies involved. DAZ gives away the software and supports it with content sales which is why they put so much importance on content: that's what pays for the whole thing. Smith Micro's view is that they sell you the software and YOU are responsible for creating the content. They aren't in the content business, they are in the software business. For better or worse. DAZ is much better at fostering a community that creates content because that is their business. It's a marketing issue, not a technology one.

As far as pretty girl vs other content, I spend plenty of money on other content. If you aren't seeing it, you aren't trying very hard. Either here or at DAZ

diogenese19348 posted at 1:36PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318088

I think there may be a difference in Philosophies involved. DAZ gives away the software and supports it with content sales which is why they put so much importance on content: that's what pays for the whole thing. Smith Micro's view is that they sell you the software and YOU are responsible for creating the content. They aren't in the content business, they are in the software business. For better or worse. DAZ is much better at fostering a community that creates content because that is their business. It's a marketing issue, not a technology one.

As far as pretty girl vs other content, I spend plenty of money on other content. If you aren't seeing it, you aren't trying very hard. Either here or at DAZ

Part of the fallout between SM & DAZ was because SM wanted to have a cut of content sales. Part of that was through that exorbitant price to make v4 face room compatible. Part was through Content Paradise. Then they started cutting out brokerages from listing their catalogs on CP by raising their cut while offering nothing extra in return (they don't even test products).

It was felt that the company that owned Poser should have an interest in the content sold for it.

I don't hate Poser, it's my first love in 3D. But there are far fewer resources for me to learn to light and create for superfly correctly and the product I made for it this year might as well have been a freebie for the sales it had. Most (not all) of the Poser content I'm seeing looks like stuff from 10 years ago in quality and shading. That's due to the lack of resources (tutorials etc) for getting better results.

diogenese19348 posted at 3:24PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318088

Smith Micro's view is that they sell you the software and YOU are responsible for creating the content. They aren't in the content business, they are in the software business. For better or worse. DAZ is much better at fostering a community that creates content because that is their business. It's a marketing issue, not a technology one.

Seven years later, that excuse simply won't do. There's far too many threads here and other sites for that to accepted. Understand, that years ago SM did the very same thing that DAZ3D except they sold the software and relied on others to provide the content. This isn't something they couldn't do, they could... they just didn't because they had others doing if for them. Now that that resource is no longer there (or they won't leverage the tech so they can use new items), they need to either adjust the way they position the product or drop the price. With the financial health of the parent company, I'm not sure how much can be done to address content now; but what they and others can no longer do is blame a competitor for their woes.. we're seven years later into this discussion. What is the plan that SM needs to do, not DAZ? Most likely they'll need to overhaul the software to make it easier for figure development to happen... things like even exporting an obj without it being broken up into groups (and toss the way it groups moving forward) is a step in the right direction.

(note: you can do this without breaking compatibility; DAZ has the old poser-style rigging, triax and the Dual Quaterion (aka General) weight mapping in the same program. It doesn't have to be all or nothing)

It wasn't an excuse so much as an observation. On financial boards I am much more vocal about what Smith Micro's management is doing wrong. This isn't the place for it. Bottom line though is Smith Micro isn't doing much in the way of building a community of third party content providers for their product, nor are they effective in maintaining a user base. At one time they had a huge number of independent artists supporting their software including Digital Arts Zone. Through a series of management decisions and time passing, they don't anymore. This is hardly DAZ's fault, and cajoling PA's here to make products that don't sell enough to be worth their time, or complaining about broken promises from DAZ are beside the point. DAZ probably isn't creating content for the same reason others aren't doing it - it isn't profitable and nobody is a charity organization. If Smith Micro wants to rebuild its third party content making base, or actually bother creating new content themselves, that has got to be their responsibility, it certainly isn't anybody elses. I don't see any sign of that happening.

Although SM meeting with Rendo may mean that they are indeed trying to find a new home with a readily created community and a new content provider thru the vendors. However the initial problems regarding the usage of, and creation for, their newest software will still stand. Much of the Poser products offered in the store are using old MAT styles from a decade ago, they aren't utilizing the full capabilities that Poser might be capable of.

I have a lot of trouble with the lighting in the newer poser and unlike with DAZ Studio where I can buy great lighting, I haven't found any for Poser's Superfly. So when I've tried to use it I'm not getting the same quality of imaging that I get without superfly or in studio.

It's also not as if they never provided content. I did commission work for them a few times. It's just the flexibility of their figures vs DAZ figures that has always been an issue.

3-DArena posted at 8:56PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318119

I have a lot of trouble with the lighting in the newer poser and unlike with DAZ Studio where I can buy great lighting, I haven't found any for Poser's Superfly. So when I've tried to use it I'm not getting the same quality of imaging that I get without superfly or in studio.

What kind of trouble are you having with Poser Lighting? can you point me to a Studio light set that you like? Are there any specific weaknesses you can point to regarding Poser lighting?

3-DArena posted at 4:55AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318090

Most (not all) of the Poser content I'm seeing looks like stuff from 10 years ago in quality and shading. That's due to the lack of resources (tutorials etc) for getting better results.

This is extremely harsh on vendors. From my experience, in general, content for Poser is not inferior to content for DS. Not all content is of good quality, but that applies to both Poser and DS products.

wimvdb posted at 8:41AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318132

3-DArena posted at 4:55AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318090

Most (not all) of the Poser content I'm seeing looks like stuff from 10 years ago in quality and shading. That's due to the lack of resources (tutorials etc) for getting better results.

This is extremely harsh on vendors. From my experience, in general, content for Poser is not inferior to content for DS. Not all content is of good quality, but that applies to both Poser and DS products.

I actually didn't mean it that way. I meant that they don't seem to be using Superfly and that in general they look exactly as they did when V4 came out. I'm not seeing much use of superfly shaders, with the exception of a couple of vendors. It doesn't mean the items are ugly or anything, I simply meant that the advances in Poser aren't being utilized, those advances are [presumably] intended to give better results than previous versions.

It's not as if there was no quality 10 years ago, my point was that what was good, or even great then seems to be the same now. However there are a few creators that are using superfly and you can see the difference, just like older 3delight vs iray.

That makes updating poser a moot point because the majority of the content does not require even Superfly, which in the long run can lead to lack of income for SM if people aren't feeling they need to upgrade for newer content.

EClark1894 posted at 9:08AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318125

3-DArena posted at 8:56PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318119

I have a lot of trouble with the lighting in the newer poser and unlike with DAZ Studio where I can buy great lighting, I haven't found any for Poser's Superfly. So when I've tried to use it I'm not getting the same quality of imaging that I get without superfly or in studio.

What kind of trouble are you having with Poser Lighting? can you point me to a Studio light set that you like? Are there any specific weaknesses you can point to regarding Poser lighting?

Regular poser lighting is fine. I can get the same results I did years ago. Superfly though is another story. I'd like to get results like good hdri lighting sets, like Dreamlight's sets as an example. I actually don't have Poser installed right now, though I did buy Poser 11 in January because I hate not owning a current (decent, I skipped 5 lol) version of it. I bought a new pc a few months ago and didn't bother to install it.

3-DArena posted at 11:04AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318148

EClark1894 posted at 9:08AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318125

3-DArena posted at 8:56PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318119

I have a lot of trouble with the lighting in the newer poser and unlike with DAZ Studio where I can buy great lighting, I haven't found any for Poser's Superfly. So when I've tried to use it I'm not getting the same quality of imaging that I get without superfly or in studio.

What kind of trouble are you having with Poser Lighting? can you point me to a Studio light set that you like? Are there any specific weaknesses you can point to regarding Poser lighting?

Regular poser lighting is fine. I can get the same results I did years ago. Superfly though is another story. I'd like to get results like good hdri lighting sets, like Dreamlight's sets as an example. I actually don't have Poser installed right now, though I did buy Poser 11 in January because I hate not owning a current (decent, I skipped 5 lol) version of it. I bought a new pc a few months ago and didn't bother to install it.

Have you tried Snarlygribbly's EZDOME utility? http://www.snarlygribbly.org/snarlyspace/ezdome.html It coe with a .pdf file to help you install it properly and how to use it. My Poser content directory has a listing of websites where you can download for free or buy hdr images to add to or build your own library for use in EZ Dome or whatever. Hope this helps.

I'll look into that. I hadn't heard of it, which is kind of the point. Poser isn't getting the same mainstream support in the stores for it's PBR system. I'd have happily paid for various hdri lights and even shaders. The offered Poser shaders/materials aren't for poser's PBR system that I've seen, but the same types of product for Studio includes PBR options.

3-DArena posted at 12:26PM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318154

I'll look into that. I hadn't heard of it, which is kind of the point. Poser isn't getting the same mainstream support in the stores for it's PBR system. I'd have happily paid for various hdri lights and even shaders. The offered Poser shaders/materials aren't for poser's PBR system that I've seen, but the same types of product for Studio includes PBR options.

My directory may also be able to help you out in that respect as well. Input the following url.

http://www.3dcontentdirectory.com/directory/Materials.html

3-DArena posted at 3:28AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318154

I'll look into that. I hadn't heard of it, which is kind of the point. Poser isn't getting the same mainstream support in the stores for it's PBR system. I'd have happily paid for various hdri lights and even shaders. The offered Poser shaders/materials aren't for poser's PBR system that I've seen, but the same types of product for Studio includes PBR options.

You're a vendor. Why aren't you making some of this content that you're saying others aren't making? Honest question, not being snarky. Really. I realize there's a learning curve to the latest features and rendering (I'm working through that curve myself at the moment with materials), but the same is true with iray, etc. Making content is a constant learning process and requires continually updating your skills and toolset to meet the present requirements and expectations. If the customers aren't buying its because the content isn't there to be bought.

Rosity recently conducted a poll on Poser users and more than 50% of them were using P11 or higher. When you factor in P10 the numbers get closer to 75% or more.

AmbientShade posted at 5:35AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318245

3-DArena posted at 3:28AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318154

I'll look into that. I hadn't heard of it, which is kind of the point. Poser isn't getting the same mainstream support in the stores for it's PBR system. I'd have happily paid for various hdri lights and even shaders. The offered Poser shaders/materials aren't for poser's PBR system that I've seen, but the same types of product for Studio includes PBR options.

You're a vendor. Why aren't you making some of this content that you're saying others aren't making? Honest question, not being snarky. Really. I realize there's a learning curve to the latest features and rendering (I'm working through that curve myself at the moment with materials), but the same is true with iray, etc. Making content is a constant learning process and requires continually updating your skills and toolset to meet the present requirements and expectations. If the customers aren't buying its because the content isn't there to be bought.

Rosity recently conducted a poll on Poser users and more than 50% of them were using P11 or higher. When you factor in P10 the numbers get closer to 75% or more.

I believe if you looked a few posts earlier she said her last poser release had so few sales that it could have been released as a freebie. I remember looking at where Dimension3D's PBR shader product ranked in popularity on the hotlist here when it released and I don't think it made it to the 2nd page of the hot list. I don't think this is an issue that you can really lay at a vendor's feet.

The one item in her store that lists Poser 11 is also compatible with DS and everything else going back to Poser 6+. So if that is the item in question, and it didn't sell well, is it really accurate to cite P11 compatibility as being the culprit?

I can't imagine there is much of anything still being made for V4 that gains that much traction in the stores anymore unless it's truly a unique product or something that is usable by multiple figures - considering her market share is pretty well exhausted. But it goes back to the long running debate about vendors not willing to support figures that aren't daz. Yet there are at least a few who do make products for non-daz figures and do very well as a result.

According to various vendors the hot list is not an accurate method of gauging how many sales a particular item gets. There are at least a few Poser products on the first few rows of the hot list right now.

AmbientShade posted at 7:08AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318252

The one item in her store that lists Poser 11 is also compatible with DS and everything else going back to Poser 6+. So if that is the item in question, and it didn't sell well, is it really accurate to cite P11 compatibility as being the culprit?

I can't imagine there is much of anything still being made for V4 that gains that much traction in the stores anymore unless it's truly a unique product or something that is usable by multiple figures - considering her market share is pretty well exhausted. But it goes back to the long running debate about vendors not willing to support figures that aren't daz. Yet there are at least a few who do make products for non-daz figures and do very well as a result.

According to various vendors the hot list is not an accurate method of gauging how many sales a particular item gets. There are at least a few Poser products on the first few rows of the hot list right now.

Again, we're engaging in yet another round of vendor blaming. That's not the problem. If the features aren't properly documented or incomplete, like not being able to export an obj that isn't grouped or unable to use an HDRI in a scene Superfly scene without a 3rd party addon, and the "replacement" for it is hard to change, is that the vendor's fault? If the features aren't compelling enough for a vendor product known for good work barely make it to a 2nd page of the hot list, is that the vendor's fault? The problem yet again, is these discussions refuse to take the proper entity to task for issues, blaming everyone else. Until that mindset changes, nothing else will.

You can export a grouped (or ungrouped) obj from Poser. I do it all the time without issue. The issue is exporting a rigged model from Poser. This is not a new issue and is easily overcome. As well there is plenty of info available for hdr lighting and every other type of lighting, along with info on just about every aspect of Poser you can think of. You have to be willing to use the information and ask questions when something isn't clear or there's an issue. Renderosity and SM both have extensive youtube channels with dozens of hours of training material all about Poser. And sure, there is plenty SM could do to improve things and add better features, no one denies that. The real problem is constantly blaming one company for not strapping themselves to the whims of another company. No business in their right mind would ever do that, regardless what type of product they're producing.

AmbientShade posted at 7:34AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318254

You can export a grouped (or ungrouped) obj from Poser. I do it all the time without issue. The issue is exporting a rigged model from Poser. This is not a new issue and is easily overcome. As well there is plenty of info available for hdr lighting and every other type of lighting, along with info on just about every aspect of Poser you can think of. You have to be willing to use the information and ask questions when something isn't clear or there's an issue. Renderosity and SM both have extensive youtube channels with dozens of hours of training material all about Poser.

You can't export it for figure development. It exports incorrectly. This is why either you have to either use the original OBJ for making morphs, or you use Go-Z to send it to zbrush and save it from there. Even Vilters said it on the official poser forum, so your information on this matter is incorrect. One of my eariler M4 projects got rejected from QA because of this issue because i tried to do it all in Poser. I had to fix it in zbrush for it to pass. From that point on I learned not to export morphs in this manner from experience. All my new projects make use of JCMs for joint bends and flexes and MCMs for eye closes.. I would figure that would be difficult to do in Poser if I didn't have a copy of zbrush to grab a modified obj to morph for a jcm or mcm.

I also see you glossed of the HDRI issue. You can't use an HDRI directly that is an issue that you shouldn't have to look up anywhere.. and there was a freebie made to address that issue because the implementation was incomplete as I said.

Wrong. You can in fact export it for figure development. My figures were done that way. Their geometry is welded. You don't use the obj that gets saved to the library. Once you've pointed the cr2 to the master obj everything remains welded even after multiple saves to the library. The only time that changes is if you go back into the setup room. Then you'll have to redirect the saved cr2 to your master obj again. I import objs into Poser, send them to zbrush, back to poser and export again and the obj remains welded the entire time. I've explained this to Vilters and others numerous times but people insist on perpetuating false information.

AmbientShade posted at 7:46AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318256

Wrong. You can in fact export it for figure development. My figures were done that way. Their geometry is welded. You don't use the obj that gets saved to the library. Once you've pointed the cr2 to the master obj everything remains welded even after multiple saves to the library. The only time that changes is if you go back into the setup room. Then you'll have to redirect the saved cr2 to your master obj again. I import objs into Poser, send them to zbrush, back to poser and export again and the obj remains welded the entire time. I've explained this to Vilters and others numerous times but people insist on perpetuating false information.

And you said just what I mentioned... you sent them to zbrush. I just said that, because you can't export them directly because that feature does not exist. If you do a File->export It does not work; it breaks up the mesh on a gen4... and that's probably because it's rigged... go-z to zbrush does and i didn't disagree with you there.

Now if welded figures work, that would be another issue.. but until your figure actually is available and popular, this does not exist so the development comment stands. But a vendor should not have to pay $800 for a zbrush license to be able to work with modified objs; that's an impediment to development that should not exist.

What feature doesn't exist? I don't know what you mean. You can export a grouped and welded obj directly from Poser into your runtime via the file menu.

You can import a welded obj and send it to zbrush via goz and create morphs that way.

You can also send a rigged and posed figure to zbrush via goz, create jcms and any other kind of morph and send it back to poser.

The thing you can't do is work on the model of a rigged figure that's been saved to the library because Poser does not keep that model welded when saved. That's the version of the model that has the welding issue. But once you redirect the cr2 to the master (welded) obj that you manually exported via the file menu, you can then bring that model into poser and work on morphs.

AmbientShade posted at 9:22AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318259

What feature doesn't exist? I don't know what you mean. You can export a grouped and welded obj directly from Poser into your runtime via the file menu.

You can import a welded obj and send it to zbrush via goz and create morphs that way.

You can also send a rigged and posed figure to zbrush via goz, create jcms and any other kind of morph and send it back to poser.

The thing you can't do is work on the model of a rigged figure that's been saved to the library because Poser does not keep that model welded when saved. That's the version of the model that has the welding issue. But once you redirect the cr2 to the master (welded) obj that you manually exported via the file menu, you can then bring that model into poser and work on morphs.

You keep repeating what I'm saying. Without using zbrush you can't export a correct obj for morphs using File-Export. It does not work, it breaks figures such as V4 up into groups that will not import as a morph correctly. That feature does exist. Are you advocating that users pay $800 to be able to save out objs from rigged figures that should be available in the program? A wielded figure may export correctly, but that's not what's on the market today, is it? Vendors can only work with what's available, not things that are hypothetical. This problem has not been fixed, just worked around or as you seem to be saying "use another figure that will work".

How were people making morphs for all the years when there was only Poser? When zbrush didn't exist or wasn't a standard?

Never said you have to have zbrush. You can use blender or magnets and the morph brush if that's what you want. And there's scripts that import morphs for you if you can't get them to import correctly on your own.

Pretending Poser is impossible for people to make content for doesn't make it true.

AmbientShade posted at 10:57AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318252

The one item in her store that lists Poser 11 is also compatible with DS and everything else going back to Poser 6+. So if that is the item in question, and it didn't sell well, is it really accurate to cite P11 compatibility as being the culprit?

I can't imagine there is much of anything still being made for V4 that gains that much traction in the stores anymore unless it's truly a unique product or something that is usable by multiple figures - considering her market share is pretty well exhausted. But it goes back to the long running debate about vendors not willing to support figures that aren't daz. Yet there are at least a few who do make products for non-daz figures and do very well as a result.

According to various vendors the hot list is not an accurate method of gauging how many sales a particular item gets. There are at least a few Poser products on the first few rows of the hot list right now.

Actually the item that I did this year, had no Studio MATs at all. It was completely for Poser and was an expansion for an outfit that was in the What's Hot (get to that in a moment) section, albeit not at the top, but it was the first Poser product listed for awhile. I do characters, but I mainly do clothing expansions and have for over 17 years, I also owned a brokerage store for about 10 of those years. I know the ballpark for what the numbers should be for various releases based on the current market, particularly if the expansion is for a seemingly popular set. This set is in the flash sales right now and at just over $2 is still not selling.https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/7th-ave-mmcutie-rb-dresssetforv4elitea4/120307</https:>

Keep in mind when I did this set I was pretty sure it would do badly, so I didn't go into it expecting better. But people, like those in this thread, kept pressuring me to go back to Poser. I was hoping to be surprised though, because as I've stated Poser is my first love.

Your point about anything for V4 not having that much traction is actually big part of the problem with Poser, because no other figure is being used for any version of Poser more prolifically than V4. It's actually part of the problem, as I've said repeatedly. The fault of that lies with SM not with the Vendors. If Poser is going to survive long term much less be regenerated than it absolutely needs a figure that can compete with Genesis.

There is no vendor I know of that is doing only non-daz figures and doing "very well". Then again my concept of very well and theirs may vary. I may have missed someone doing so though.

As for the Hot List, it is an actual representation of popularity, or volume purchased or gifted. Currently in the first 20 spaces of What's Hot there is 1 Poser item, a hair product by Biscuits. Now I don't use Poser but I do buy most of Biscuits hair because there are fits for G3/G8 included and I use Iray shader by OOT for them. However, this set actually now includes Studio MATs.

Hair, props and architecture may be marked as Poser products, but there are enough available shader products out there to convert them to Studio and the buyers for those are not just Poser users. That is missing for Poser users.

Knowing top selling vendors that have created products for various figures their sales follow a specific pattern; the newest Genesis female, then V4, then Dawn. The gap in sales for them between the newest genesis female and them V4 is rather large, and between v4 and Dawn it's like an abyss. Most of them stopped creating for Poser preferred figures because of that. I know of some vendors who have left this genre because Poser products didn't sell anymore and others who have stated they may retire if it stays like this.

I was one of those, I knew that if I couldn't get Studio to work on my system that I would have to retire because Poser sales were so bad. I did not want to switch to Studio. Once I did & adjusted I found that everything was so much simpler in Studio. I could work, create art/products in far less steps than I could with Poser and the difference in sales was extreme..

I've actually seen posts here where people will say something along the lines of "DAZ is selling V4 items crazy cheap, I just bought a whole bunch of it! Go and buy it that will show them there is still an interest in V4!" Seriously, I've seen very similar comments posted here in different words. That doesn't show anyone that there is still an interest in V4 products it shows them that those users are only willing to buy V4 items when they are dirt cheap.

AmbientShade posted at 11:39AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318263

Pretending Poser is impossible for people to make content for doesn't make it true.

It's not that it's impossible to work with, it's that the effort to do so isn't paying out in the long run. If it were vendors would be doing it.

It's honestly time to stop blaming vendors for lack of products for Poser because that doesn't exactly make them want to invest the time, and instead look to the software company.

AmbientShade posted at 11:43AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318245

3-DArena posted at 3:28AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318154

I'll look into that. I hadn't heard of it, which is kind of the point. Poser isn't getting the same mainstream support in the stores for it's PBR system. I'd have happily paid for various hdri lights and even shaders. The offered Poser shaders/materials aren't for poser's PBR system that I've seen, but the same types of product for Studio includes PBR options.

You're a vendor. Why aren't you making some of this content that you're saying others aren't making? Honest question, not being snarky. Really. I realize there's a learning curve to the latest features and rendering (I'm working through that curve myself at the moment with materials), but the same is true with iray, etc. Making content is a constant learning process and requires continually updating your skills and toolset to meet the present requirements and expectations. If the customers aren't buying its because the content isn't there to be bought.

Rosity recently conducted a poll on Poser users and more than 50% of them were using P11 or higher. When you factor in P10 the numbers get closer to 75% or more.

Because the payout isn't there for me. I'll be honest, creating for multiple software programs takes time. If I'm creating for Poser and it flops that's time I could have created for Studio and had a successful product. At various times we live on my income, I honestly can't afford to create content that takes several days or a week and have it earn only enough for a starbucks coffee a day (which I don't drink, just making a point), unless the item is going to have long term sales as a back catalog item.

However, you missed my point. That "conversation" was in regards to Poser items looking as they did 10 years ago - which isn't an insult to the products, merely a reflection of the software. They do because even with all the changes to Poser the standard is the same. Most aren't using HDRI images or PBR settings in their renders. If the majority of the end users aren't using the latest bells & whistles then there is no reason to update one's software. No updating means no $$ for SM and that means they do what they did, disassemble the Poser Department and start looking either for buyers or partners to add content.

As for Rendo polls, I love Rendo but I don't trust their polls. Not due to fraud or anything but the percentage of those who bothered to take it. The truth is that polls are most often filled out by those who want to see change, or are afraid it will occur and want to vote to stop it or who are active participants in the site. Truth is satisfied customers, those who are getting what they want, don't post, comment, etc. There are other reasons I don't trust their polls, mainly because it often doesn't bear out to what I see in the listing for popular products or what top sellers are stating to each other in conversations. Popular products and the sales numbers from Top Sellers (not just the Top 50 listing but let's say those floating around that number as well) are showing that the most purchases are for Studio products - with the exception of Hair, props and architecture that can be converted to iray in Studio.

An example: I was constantly told by users in the forum and creators who have sworn to never switch (they'd retire first), that Studio sales were a fad, they weren't as good and Poser was more viable. I wanted to believe that. However, vendors were telling me otherwise. I was being encouraged by vendors to switch and they were explaining the difference in the sales. I bought a new (to me) computer when my motherboard died and suddenly Studio worked, so I tried it. It was the vendors telling me to switch that were correct. At first I created for Poser & studio, but when I did Studio only items I didn't lose any sales volume, I gained it. My example isn't unique to me and that's the issue.

Yes, there was a learning curve, but tackling it paid off in the long run. I'm not afraid to learn new software, but as it's my job that time spent has to be of value. It has to convert to either increased sales or quality images. Those I know that are still creating for Poser only aren't experiencing that. There are those that create for Poser, but many of them are still trying to expand to Studio, either limited machines/video cards or having trouble with learning new software. They are trying to do that because they know that if they can it will pay off and that it's the way the market is leaning.

Maybe if there were figures for Poser that could compete with Genesis it would be different. Truth is though, that for Poser users, it will also have to compete with V4, because many who stay with her do so out of loyalty to the figure and because they actually do not want to buy all new products for her. Which also correlates to them not being the largest shopping numbers for the marketplaces.

AmbientShade posted at 1:54PM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318263

How were people making morphs for all the years when there was only Poser? When zbrush didn't exist or wasn't a standard?

The same way they would do now, use the original obj to morph from the geometries folder. Also keep in mind DS can export an obj (such as the head part only from V4) and import a modified version back in, so some used that for development. But a lot of products used just the provided morphs from Morphs++ to create their products. And that is still the same workflow you would do now, unless you own a copy of zbrush to pass the obj to.

Never said you have to have zbrush. You can use blender or magnets and the morph brush if that's what you want. And there's scripts that import morphs for you if you can't get them to import correctly on your own.

Yes you can but if you're using blender, you're still going to the geometries folder for the obj. And magnets can be converted to morphs and saved in a pmd.. but not as the obj file.

Pretending Poser is impossible for people to make content for doesn't make it true.

I never said it was impossible. What i said it's harder than it needs to be; simple functionality like the obj export and groups should be fixed so you're doing more work with the tools within Poser. Poser added the ability to create the injection files for morphs, but it puts it in a PMD file that you can't edit without a 3rd party tool. That doesn't make the workflow easier, it makes it harder as you're jumping from program to make a product, or you're hand coding things that should be automated. I've said before that SM really needs to talk to actual vendors that make the products they want to target, but that hasn't happened yet.. and it's certainly what I've heard from some of the vendors formerly from RDNA that sat down with DS and realized that they don't have to do as many steps as they've done before. That's not how you keep your vendors if find they can do things easier with another program than with the one they love.

@3-DArena

Just curious, does the product you listed come with Superfly mats?

DreaminGirl posted at 7:23PM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318287

@3-DArena

Just curious, does the product you listed come with Superfly mats?

No because I couldn't get decent lighting for Superfly renders to check that it looked good. I won't offer something I can't test for myself. Before release I checked it against other expansions in the store and none of them at the time included Superfly, most still don't.

Makes you wonder why SM should even bother updating their software if vendors don't use the new features. I would buy hella lot more Poser content if they had Superfly mats. As it is, I already have loads of content, so why buy anything new if it doesn't offer anything new?

DreaminGirl posted at 8:12PM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318294

Makes you wonder why SM should even bother updating their software if vendors don't use the new features. I would buy hella lot more Poser content if they had Superfly mats. As it is, I already have loads of content, so why buy anything new if it doesn't offer anything new?

Which is exactly the point. Unlike with Studio the newest features aren't pushed or encouraged by SM in content. The best way to do that is to attempt to generate Poser content with the newest software and to then actually interact with those vendors creating the content to time with that release. Explain to them how it works, show them the best way to get results, explain that you want those items to include options for the new features.

I'd have happily created Superfly content for it, I had intended to. But trying to get good results wasn't happening as I couldn't light it well.

If some of those who use Superfly and render well with would release lights/settings etc then truthfully superfly materials would most likely be included. DAZ includes really good starter lights and settings right off the bat and information to get good results is often in the forums.

I should try again and see what it looks like with my new machine, when I have time.

Ghostship had released some pretty good lightsets for free here: Studio Portrait Lights for Poser 11 & Poser 11 Pro

You should also check out the official Poser forums at SM, there is a lot of good information there, and also helpful people to get you started. SM also has tutorials on Youtube. There is actually loads of P11 tutorials and freebies out there, but they don't have Daz3D's PR machine behind them ;)