Biscuits posted at 10:26AM Sat, 11 November 2017 - #4317753

Poser has so many features and such awesome functionality, Poser 11 has some hidden gems.

But I think the majority of the users doesn’t even use 70% of what Poser is capable of.

I’m still discovering new options!

I am sure you are correct but I wish that Smith Micro would realize that a large percentage of Poser users are "hobbyist" and not professionals. Gear their software to make the various functions simple and obvious to the hobbyist. I think it would be bad to see them go out of business as that would leave Daz free to do whatever they wanted. Competition is good.

The question for me is not so much where Poser is going but where I'm going and whether Poser can come with me. It's become clear that relying on one software, be it Poser or Studio, is a recipe for disaster. Too much control over my ability to make art. Too much control over the tools and content provided. Too much similarity of look in renders and content. Right now I mostly use Poser, Blender and Photoshop. Studio is more of a utility at this point. I'll use it more if it allows me to create what's in my mind but couldn't see making it my goto program. I plan to learn and use Blender more and more for stills, compositing and animation.

Back to the OP's mention of ManuelBastioniLab. It's an incredible add on. It's pretty much every figure and morph package we've used over the years in one package. It's emphasis on scientifically based ethnicities, ability to dial in various skin tones, randomizing of faces and body types, inclusion of elf, dwarf, multiple Anime figures, and aging displacement dials allow for pretty much any human figure you could ask for. It's output of advanced IK rigs and muscle system is on the cutting edge of figure creation. The lone developer has been putting out regular updates at an incredible pace. Oh, and it's free. Can't say enough about the potential of this tool.

false1 posted at 11:11AM Sat, 11 November 2017 - #4317783

The question for me is not so much where Poser is going but where I'm going and whether Poser can come with me. It's become clear that relying on one software, be it Poser or Studio, is a recipe for disaster. Too much control over my ability to make art. Too much control over the tools and content provided. Too much similarity of look in renders and content. Right now I mostly use Poser, Blender and Photoshop. Studio is more of a utility at this point. I'll use it more if it allows me to create what's in my mind but couldn't see making it my goto program. I plan to learn and use Blender more and more for stills, compositing and animation.

Back to the OP's mention of ManuelBastioniLab. It's an incredible add on. It's pretty much every figure and morph package we've used over the years in one package. It's emphasis on scientifically based ethnicities, ability to dial in various skin tones, randomizing of faces and body types, inclusion of elf, dwarf, multiple Anime figures, and aging displacement dials allow for pretty much any human figure you could ask for. It's output of advanced IK rigs and muscle system is on the cutting edge of figure creation. The lone developer has been putting out regular updates at an incredible pace. Oh, and it's free. Can't say enough about the potential of this tool.

I think most users are using poser and daz for fun.... when programs become too complicated then they cease to be fun and people stop using them. Let's keep the fun simple

drafter69 posted at 12:10PM Sat, 11 November 2017 - #4317781

I am sure you are correct but I wish that Smith Micro would realize that a large percentage of Poser users are "hobbyist" and not professionals. Gear their software to make the various functions simple and obvious to the hobbyist. I think it would be bad to see them go out of business as that would leave Daz free to do whatever they wanted. Competition is good.

Daz and Smith Micro have very different business strategies.

If you want to use Poser to it's fullest, crack open the manual - seriously, it is just like any other artform, the enduser to learn to use the tools - and that requires actual work on the part of the enduser.

ssgbryan posted at 2:12PM Sat, 11 November 2017 - #4317791

drafter69 posted at 12:10PM Sat, 11 November 2017 - #4317781

I am sure you are correct but I wish that Smith Micro would realize that a large percentage of Poser users are "hobbyist" and not professionals. Gear their software to make the various functions simple and obvious to the hobbyist. I think it would be bad to see them go out of business as that would leave Daz free to do whatever they wanted. Competition is good.

Daz and Smith Micro have very different business strategies.

If you want to use Poser to it's fullest, crack open the manual - seriously, it is just like any other artform, the enduser to learn to use the tools - and that requires actual work on the part of the enduser.

So you are suggesting that only "serious people" should use the program??? For most it is a HOBBY nothing more. Read the instruction manual???? How many programs have ever achieved that goal????? Since you are determined that it is only for serious people I will not respond to this again. For me it is a HOBBY... nothing more and never will be.

drafter69 posted at 3:23PM Sat, 11 November 2017 - #4317784

I think most users are using poser and daz for fun.... when programs become too complicated then they cease to be fun and people stop using them. Let's keep the fun simple

I know what you mean. It can be tiresome jumping through digital hoops trying to get a simple idea into a decent render. But that's why I can only speak for myself and where I want to go. Everybody has a different need for their personal goals. I have an idea of what i want to do and if Poser can help me do it, awesome. If not, it will become less important to me.

On that same notion though, I think Daz has the fun factor locked up as far as the load, pose, render concept. Beyond that you have to create your own, which will require grappling with the technology. Poser may want to cater to a more "advanced" crowd just as a way of separating itself in the market. Or not. It's not my call. If you're referring to Blender, it's actually easier than Poser in many ways, especially if you're not totally focused on female figure renders.

I love reading this stuff. I started with P4 and now use P11, Folks all of this is just a plaything for when I ain't hunting and fishing so why does everybody get so upset over these programs. I bought enough poser characters that I'll never use them all. Poser is easy were as I never got the hang of Daz. Don't get mad just have fun!!!

drafter69 posted at 1:40AM Mon, 13 November 2017 - [#4317797](#msg4317797r.

So you are suggesting that only "serious people" should use the program??? For most it is a HOBBY nothing more. Read the instruction manual???? How many programs have ever achieved that goal????? Since you are determined that it is only for serious people I will not respond to this again. For me it is a HOBBY... nothing more and never will be.

No - You are the one that is suggesting that only serious people should use the program. You can spend hours trolling forums looking for answers, or you can simply crack the manual for about 5 minutes and find answers.

Every hobby requires skill and talent.

Drawing and painting needs to be practiced, looking at other artist’s paintings.

Following video tutorials and yes even read documentation.

A hobby is something you love doing and you’re passionate about.

Basically if you don’t want to spend time and effort on this hobby I highly doubt the love for it.

Why are we always talking about the tool?

Some can sharpen a knife to razor sharp using a brick, others talk about how sharpening system X is better then sharpening system Y.

The end result is always in the fingertips. Certainly in something "artistic" as 3D.

Biscuits posted at 11:03AM Mon, 13 November 2017 - #4317859

Every hobby requires skill and talent.

Drawing and painting needs to be practiced, looking at other artist’s paintings.

Following video tutorials and yes even read documentation.

A hobby is something you love doing and you’re passionate about.

Basically if you don’t want to spend time and effort on this hobby I highly doubt the love for it.

I didn't realize that you were the judge of what hobbyist is or is not.... Just remember with great power comes great responsibility.......

Lol, Well the only hobby I know of that doesn't take any effort or skill is watching tv^^.

But it does take lotta time!

tonyvilters posted at 6:17PM Mon, 13 November 2017 - #4317865

Why are we always talking about the tool?

Some can sharpen a knife to razor sharp using a brick, others talk about how sharpening system X is better then sharpening system Y.

The end result is always in the fingertips. Certainly in something "artistic" as 3D.

LOL, I just hope you be careful with your sharp knife and you fingertips Tony!!!

But I get what you're saying, more ways to Rome!

Penguinisto posted at 7:48PM Mon, 13 November 2017 - #4317720

I don't come in here much these days, as many people can attest to, but since I'm waiting for a $@&^! code change to finish propagation across a massive infrastructure...

Disclosure: I stopped using Poser years ago, so some of what I say may be out of date. I also worked for DAZ, though roughly 12 years ago. I am today someone who farts around with CG for fun in his spare time, and rarely (and in the last decade definitely not) for profit....

Great to hear from you, Penguinisto; it's been a while. Good observations...

drafter69 posted at 2:03AM Tue, 14 November 2017 - #4317781

I am sure you are correct but I wish that Smith Micro would realize that a large percentage of Poser users are "hobbyist" and not professionals.

Not sure about that .. Just because there are many people discovered 3D software hobby-wise does not mean the softwares are not used by professionals as much [or maybe more] ..

That being said it always surprises in almost a fun way that entering the Poser forum DS is discussed as being the most awesome tool .. Comparing those 2 over-and-over inside-and-out is like comparing windows to mac .. samsung to iPhone .. Nintendo to Playstation .. etc .. We don't suggest to all work together either

Poser focuses on this DS focusing on that .. pick your tool and enjoy it ..!! Cause no matter how you look at it : nothing in life is free but the air that you breathe ..

The original question where is Poser going ..??.. ask Smith Micro .. they're the only ones that know the correct answer ..

tonyvilters posted at 2:23AM Tue, 14 November 2017 - #4317614

Where Poser is going? I never knew it had feet to walk? LOL.

Lol .. this made me smile big time ..!!.. I always tell the Poser logo white guy to run faster when in a hurry for renders ..

For those who find reading the manual or scouring threads and videos a bit too tedious, it would be helpful if Poser had a Tool Tips feature, like zbrush and many other programs have. That way you could get at least a brief overview of what each function does just by hovering your mouse over the icon, dial, etc. Would save a lot of experimental rendering time if you got a clue that what you're about to change probably won't do what you think it does, instead of just having to guess. And if they're annoying you could turn them off in the Settings menu.

Wow, I leave for a couple days to care for my sick roommate and come back to this? Guys, you have really gone too far and I think you know it. This is a warning since I didn't say much earlier. Stick to civil constructive comments based on the OP ... or I lock this thread. Friends, thank you for trying to pull it back, but some people don't get the hint.

Sorry Boni .. It just seems that none can pop questions about Poser no more without the constant DS comparing interruption .. :/

Hope your roommate feels better ..!?!

Kendra posted at 4:13PM Tue, 14 November 2017 - #4317660

Not to mention taking out that ridiculous re-activation feature. I went to open Poser last week and couldn't because I was away from home. I still haven't had the chance to re-activate.

You can permanently activate your license via SM's license manager page.

Not sure if I'm allowed to link directly but you can read about it here:

https://forum.smithmicro.com/topic/164/p-g-license-manager-currently-read-only-license-editing-coming-soon

(The 'coming soon' part is outdated - as the thread is 2 years old).

P3D-Art and AmbientShade, thank you .... Hopefully she will feel better soon. Just a cold, but it's kicked her bum!! Remember folks ... stick to the OP.

Where is poser going?

Down the pub for a couple of pints, then for a kebab....

I started with TrueSpace .R.I.P. Since then I've used alot of different 3D n 2D app's n plugs.

If your CGI Studio only has one app ,then your putting your self in to a very small box.

It doesn't matter where Poser or Blender or anyone else goes for that matter.

All that matters is where your going.Get ALL the app's that you need to take you to where you want to go.

Reading the various points of view has been interesting. Whatever Smith Micro decides to do should come soon as they continue to lose stock value. So I guess time will tell.

drafter69 posted at 10:37AM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318070

Reading the various points of view has been interesting. Whatever Smith Micro decides to do should come soon as they continue to lose stock value. So I guess time will tell.

You do realize the graphics division represents less than 10% of Smith Micro's incorme, right?

RorrKonn: You've made one of the best points on the thread. Maybe we can shift gear and ask ... "Where do we WANT Poser to go?" (keep it positive guys).

ssgbryan posted at 5:59PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318082

drafter69 posted at 10:37AM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318070

Reading the various points of view has been interesting. Whatever Smith Micro decides to do should come soon as they continue to lose stock value. So I guess time will tell.

You do realize the graphics division represents less than 10% of Smith Micro's incorme, right?

10% is more than enough for a company to dump a product. As I said "time will tell"

drafter69 posted at 4:41AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318120

ssgbryan posted at 5:59PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318082

drafter69 posted at 10:37AM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318070

Reading the various points of view has been interesting. Whatever Smith Micro decides to do should come soon as they continue to lose stock value. So I guess time will tell.

You do realize the graphics division represents less than 10% of Smith Micro's incorme, right?

10% is more than enough for a company to dump a product. As I said "time will tell"

So, it is just speculation. SM hired an entire new team just to dump a product.....

Boni posted at 3:26AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318109

RorrKonn: You've made one of the best points on the thread. Maybe we can shift gear and ask ... "Where do we WANT Poser to go?" (keep it positive guys).

Improve workflow - take a leaf out of Pixologic's book and focus on productivity as a selling point. The key would be to add to what's there and not replace existing functions. The following examples are focused on rendering as not familiar with rigging so will leave that to someone else

Parenting - extend to include "group of figures/props" - assign separate figures and objects to a group so they can be manipulated together
Material room - Add inheritance to simplify setting up materials eg head,torso,limbs inherit sss attributes from a parent material called skin.
Add instancing and allow it to instance from animation frames to allow quick crowd generation
Intelligent integration with toolsets like Substance painter/designer - for example link designer attributes with the animation palette
Better camera handling, ie drag and drop
Active lighting - adjust light HSV after render, add colour profiles

The idea is to let the computer do more of the repetitive work and allow the user to spend more time creating

Why so much specualtion about what will happen if poser "disappears" Installed and backed up,NON CLOUD based, software can not "disappear" as long as your copy is still installed.

Take Natural Motion's "Endorphin" for example.

Probably the best , intelligent ragdoll physics program ever created.

no longer produced, updated or sold. .....Gone forever right??

Not for me I am using my old seat of version 2.52 extensivley in my current animated project LINK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6MnQuNDEVI

And there are still tutorials on youtube on how to use this "dissappeared"software

Even if SM "Dumps" poser and it becomes "abandonware" wont you poser loyalist still use poser9, 10, 11??

Sure there will be no future updates but what big project are you planning right now that will be canceled if poser 11 is the last official release??

Are you people actually using your software or just waiting for some future magical version of it that may never come??. the same goes for any program for that matter.

You love poser or Daz studio? the create something with the copy currently you have instead of sitting engaging in endless specultation about its future.

wimvdb posted at 10:36AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318129

drafter69 posted at 4:41AM Fri, 17 November 2017 - #4318120

ssgbryan posted at 5:59PM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318082

drafter69 posted at 10:37AM Thu, 16 November 2017 - #4318070

Reading the various points of view has been interesting. Whatever Smith Micro decides to do should come soon as they continue to lose stock value. So I guess time will tell.

You do realize the graphics division represents less than 10% of Smith Micro's incorme, right?

10% is more than enough for a company to dump a product. As I said "time will tell"

So, it is just speculation. SM hired an entire new team just to dump a product.....

You seem to have a need to keep this going and I think it is interesting BUT as I said "time will tell"..... you can stomp your feet if you want but nothing will change until Smith Micro decides what direction they are going. From one investment councilor I use there suggestion was to avoid the stock for now as the company is listed as "in transition" (whatever that means)

I'd like to see Poser re-establish its identity. Whatever you use it for, there are likely only a few other options worth considering. You could use makehuman and a program like Max or Maya to render. You could use Manuel Bastioni Laboratory in blender. If you want to work with your current content your choices would be D|S, iClone, possibly Carrara or sticking with Poser.
Daz business model depends on brokered content, so I think that Poser needs to continue reducing a dependency on that. I know there are people who want to make money providing content for Poser, and who tend to feel that Poser needs a set of compelling base figures in order to drive that market. I think Daz will always have an edge there because it's their primary focus, their tools are just a delivery platform. Poser should be the program that lets you create the things people typically tend to buy for it, and should try to solve the problems of clothing and props being figure-specific, proportion changes breaking poses etc. If Daz are going to focus on glamour shots and pin-up art, it looks like iClone really wants to be the story telling program. And iClone is the only one of the three I would want to undertake a large animated production in. If every program played to their own strengths, is like a lot of users might find they are using the wrong one. Some Poser users rightly should be using D|S but are either too attached to Poser or maybe don't like Daz or for whatever reason refuse to use it. Some Daz users should probably be using Poser. Maybe they don't want to pay for it. Maybe they just don't know what its strengths are, the things it does that D|S does not. And of course, some Poser and D|S users should really take another look at iClone, even if just to see how much a program can mature in just a few releases.

wolf359 : I still box model in Basic C4D 9 "they changed basic to prime some where along the way" on windows 8.1 think is was made for xp I know one day a windows10 or what ever will not work .but to day textures stretch real bad on it. I'd advise not to use out dated or abandonware. TrueSpace was behind LW,C4D when it died so...

oh no plugs work any more

Maybe they don't want to pay for it. Maybe they just don't know what its strengths are, the things it does that D|S does not. And of course, some Poser and D|S users should really take another look at iClone, even if just to see how much a program can mature in just a few releases.

Hi I use Iclone for nearly all of my character bodymotion I am an animated filmmaker.

Iclone pro is designed for pure realtime character motion creation and its tools are on par with the mighty Autodesk Motionbuilder. What many may not know is that Iclone3D Xchange will import the BVH skeleton of the older daz figures (Mike&Vic 1,2,3,4) as well as the genesis figure and retarget Imotion to them with one mouse click.

However I doubt that poser or Daz users will ever seriously look at Iclone because they are still framers who wont touch the animation tools.

I clone has it user base.... us Character animators.

For the still framer majority the only real choice is poser or Daz studio.

I'd advise not to use out dated or abandonware.

Why not??? if it runs on my OS and is producing the output I need what exactly is the problem?? particularly a motion/BVH creation app like Endorphin.

wolf359 posted at 11:20AM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318209

I'd advise not to use out dated or abandonware.

Why not??? if it runs on my OS and is producing the output I need what exactly is the problem?? particularly a motion/BVH creation app like Endorphin.

and C4D 9 is only 32 bit, I think TS is only 32 bit also. TrueSpace was one of the first realtime app's.TS had vision and look beyond today. but had a odd workspace and did not even keep up with LW & now Foundry has blown Newtex away.

Pirates code ,same CGI code .Those that can't keep up get left behind.

Poser brought us dynamics,bullet physics n all but anyone using them was all ready using them in Max. They don't use them much in DS either.

The way it looks from here Poser,DS users want new click n render stuff and as soon as it's rendered they want new better click n render stuff and don't really care what it's rendered in. They care about the new stuff there buying to render. So who ever has the best stuff to render wins.

wolf359 posted at 3:43PM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318208

Maybe they don't want to pay for it. Maybe they just don't know what its strengths are, the things it does that D|S does not. And of course, some Poser and D|S users should really take another look at iClone, even if just to see how much a program can mature in just a few releases.

However I doubt that poser or Daz users will ever seriously look at Iclone because they are still framers who wont touch the animation tools.

I clone has it user base.... us Character animators.

For the still framer majority the only real choice is poser or Daz studio.

There was only Poser when I first started coming around here, the rift leading to Daz Studio's creation was still a few years off. I guess my point is that while iClone is clearly focused on character animation, that was why I initially bought Poser. But from the time D|S arrived on the scene Poser and Daz have been locked in some kind of leapfrog game trying to appeal to the same category of users. There always seemed to be a fear of hardware accelerated rendering, and always people spreading the erroneous (IMHO) assumption that our figures' meshes were too dense to benefit from it. So my question is should Poser continue chasing Daz Studio, should it start chasing iClone, or is there another niche it could occupy and become its own program again? At first iClone looked like another attempt to nickel and dime users with content purchases, something I always hated with Poser and D|S. But with 3DXchange, it's possible to create custom figures in all three programs. I still think though that, of the three, Poser gives the user the most options for creating and modifying content. It just seems that the majority of users still want a "no muss no fuss" drag-and-drop program to host commercial content, which is the opposite of what I'd like Poser to be.

moogal posted at 6:31PM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318277

It just seems that the majority of users still want a "no muss no fuss" drag-and-drop program to host commercial content, which is the opposite of what I'd like Poser to be.

What many people want is to Load, Conform, and Make Art.

They have absolutely no interest in learning how to Make Art. They just expect it to appear Deus ex machina.

ssgbryan posted at 7:43AM Mon, 20 November 2017 - #4318293

moogal posted at 6:31PM Sun, 19 November 2017 - #4318277

It just seems that the majority of users still want a "no muss no fuss" drag-and-drop program to host commercial content, which is the opposite of what I'd like Poser to be.

What many people want is to Load, Conform, and Make Art.

They have absolutely no interest in learning how to Make Art. They just expect it to appear Deus ex machina.

Yes, probably safe to say for the majority of Poser and Daz users the goal is to make images and not content. Daz's decision to use IRay has certainly helped them to meet that demand. I thought SM's decision to use Blender was a good one, it supported a community driven project and also its still possible to use with non Nvidia cards. The inclusion of PBR support was also a good choice as its the closest we have to a materials standard and has the potential of sharing content between other applications. However with Daz supporting Iray for sometime it has been easier to switch applications than to learn a new system and with a render engine optmised for a particular hardware vendor the results are both faster and more easily controlled than a generic engine like Blender.

What many people want is to Load, Conform, and Make Art.

They have absolutely no interest in learning how to Make Art. They just expect it to appear Deus ex machina.

Quite correct sir ..even with all of the options we have to today.

And when you say many "people" we must certainly include the overwhelming majority of DS users.

I continue to be amazed at their utter dependancy on the PA's despite having the all mighty genesis& morph options at thier finger tips. It borders on worship.

You often see requests for more of certain ethnic/racial "characters".

when I suggest buying morphs and dialing in their own. I am promptly shouted down as though I had walked into a pre adolescent cancer ward and admonished those sick children for being too lazy to cure their own cancer.

Couple o' bits (spent last week in Chicago on business):

As far as using abandonware? Go for it - as long as it doesn't listen to or send out over a network, that is, and as long as the OS will run it. (Personally, this is why I'd dearly love to see any of these apps go Linux/GPL style, or at least do open source - that way, if the parent company dies, others can step in and maintain the thing. But that's just me.)

As far as where I'd like to see Poser go? I don't get any official vote here (I think Poser 7 was the last version I worked with), but...

• I'd like to see it get refactored for speed and for footprint (disk and RAM). Make it smaller, faster, get rid of old cruft in the codebase, stop using that abomination framework from Adobe for the UI, etc. I bitched about this perennially back in the day, but it's worth lodging another shout towards those efforts.

• overhaul the UI a bit, so it's possible for the user to make it friendly on smaller screens, for those of us whose lifestyle makes us laptop-bound. I ask because airlines would prolly get bitchy about wanting to haul two 24" OLED monitors and a Mac Pro as carry-on luggage, and I do not trust the baggage handlers to not demolish 'em in the cargo hold. (on the plus side, most hotel rooms do allow laptop connectivity to their big-screen TV's, though picture quality is always a question-mark, even in the pricier places.)

• Being forced to use DSON and convert it all, just to use all my 10+ years of DS content, looks like madness. Just pay the boys in Draper a licensing fee so you can use the files natively. Failing that, make a damn conversion function to automate the process for the users. I don't say this out of selfish interest (though admittedly it does align with my wishes), but because if you want to steal customers back, you gotta make it easy for 'em to use what they already got.

• Honest question asked out of ignorance - does Poser have auto-fit and (at least) collision detection for clothing? If so, good on 'em. If not, why not?

• Most laptops have this awesome little trackpad and many have touchscreen that can behave as mini (or for the screens, maxi) Wacom tablets. I figure the accuracy of the typical Mac trackpad is about that of 2003-era dedicated tablets, truth be told. Might be worth exploring how to put that to use somehow - not a big priority, but a neat little gee-whiz thing.

You know? I wouldn't put down the "Make Art Button" crowd. Seriously... folks gotta start somewhere. Some never get past that stage, but enough of them eventually do, that it's worth courting them to an extent.

WandW posted at 8:05AM Mon, 20 November 2017 - #4317912

Great to hear from you, Penguinisto; it's been a while. Good observations...

Gratzi. I pop in as time and treasure allow :)

SamTherapy posted at 8:08AM Mon, 20 November 2017 - #4317780

For me, Poser has a much easier, more intuitive front end than DS; I still can't get comfortable with DAZ after many tries. Maybe it's just me getting old but I can't see me ditching Poser any time soon. I don't animate stuff and have no desire to do so but the new features in Poser's rendering are stuff I need to get me head around. When I upgrade fro Pro 2012, that is.

I understand perfectly. Everyone has their own use-case, comfort zones, etc. Last year's Nagios is this year's Zenoss is next year's NewRelic, umm, don't ask - the point is, some folks chase the new-shiny, some folks are cozy with what they have. Me, I like the DS interface because, well, I helped build it (though honestly? A lot has changed since then.)

That said, if something better still comes out, I'll chase that instead, but whoever has that 'better', had better make it easy to use the megatons of content I already have (or it had better be so mind-blowing that I'd be willing to ignore Sunk Cost entirely.) I'm sure the same goes for most other folks, no matter what they use and prefer now.

At the end of the day though, like all good things, what we use and prefer must come to an end, or it changes to an unrecognizable beast that bedevils us. SmithMicro may as well make those changes happen in a positive direction that attracts others to it... because that's pretty much what it will need to do to survive. The rub is that it's against SM's entire raison d'être. I hope they can overcome that.

The sooner we stop forcing a nonagon peg in to a heptagon hole. The better off well be.

Poser / DS is a drag n drop rendering tool ,mostly for fun. n that's fine buy me .I don't need another Max.That's what they are ,that's what there always be. No point in trying to change it. You can't change your mini van in to a Ferrari. but you can have a lot of fun in a mini van.

Since day one of CGI in 1902 something ;).The problem was Programmers not Artist was making the Art App's. How well do you think a programmer can paint the Sistine Chapel ?

Poser is run buy telecommunications business men and it shows in there content.

The viewer could care less what it was rendered in they don't know Max from Buon Fresco from Poser .

All they care about is how good it looks.

The thing I have always like about Poser and its main competitors is the idea of separating figure creation from scene set-up and image/animation rendering. In practice, it makes it somewhat harder to fix and modify things... But my dream program would be one in which I can clothe and style my "cast" and bring them in ready to use and never have to worry about poke-through, intersecting body parts, hair popping off, anything that breaks the illusion. With blender or Maya you have absolute freedom to change or modify anything at any time, which is certainly not a bad thing in and of itself. But having started animation with stop motion and traditional models, I always wanted the process of creating characters, props and settings to be kept separate from setting up the cameras and actually directing a scene. I always looked at figure creation as "casting", prop creation/placement as "set design" and prefer production and pre-production not to overlap. But whenever I load a figure into a scene and pose it In almost no time I am cluttering up everything with pose-specific morphs, magnets, whatever.
So I suppose I actually do want a drag and drop, no muss no fuss solution as well, just one that lets me freely use my own custom content. Essentially I would like a streamlined version of Poser with clothing that always fits (or doesn't fit but the way real clothes might not) and maybe more character customization. Would really like geometry grafting so I could make cyborgs, centaurs, body-horror type stuff... The process of putting e.g. an existing figure's head on a custom body (without losing the morphs and visemes) or vice versa (with no visible seams) is IMHO prohibitively difficult. It can, as far as I know, be done, but how many hours minimum would one have to invest in Poser before successfully undertaking such a thing?

Moogal, you are asking a lot out of a low-end piece of software. You seem to be asking for Zbrush levels of modeling adjustment - just get a copy of Zbrush, or blender, or even Hexagon, if you are a masochist (Can you tell I have used Hexagon for too many years?).

Geo-grafting is simply parenting another object/prop to a character. We've been able to do that since at least Poser 5, that I am personally aware of. It does have a fancier name though.

There are ways to make the clothing fit better - the problem is that it takes more than just a couple of clicks, which means that most folks will simply whine that the software should do all of the work, so they don't actually have to do anything.

If you want clothing to always fit, use dynamic clothing. Once you use it, you'll be kicking yourself for not using it sooner.

If you insist on using conforming clothing, my suggestion is as follows:

1. After installing the clothing - delete every non-movement morph. Stay with me here.
2. Save clothing.
3. Load figure (with all of the morphs that the character needs).
4. Save the figure as an FBM. (Wardrobe Wizard - utilities - morphs - Dials to single morph.) I save mine as Alt- FBM.
5. Delete all morphs from figure. (I use Shaderworks' INJ Cleaner - it deletes every zeroed out morph. V4 drops from 400Mb to 7Mb or so. Don't forget to put the Expressions back in.)
6. Select clothing - from the Figures tab, select Copy morphs from.
7. Select the FBM and add it to the clothing (By naming the FBM -Alt- FBM_ it's near the top of the list and is easier to pick out.
8. Save out character & outfit (separately or together, depending on your workflow).

That is 8 steps, which is 5 more than most folks want to do. It takes about 3 minutes, mainly because I have several hundred morphs in my figures. (Sydney is just as heavy as V4 in my runtime).

If you need to move the clothing from 1 character mesh to another, I'd recommend the Fitting room, Lyrra's fit room magnet sets, and the Prefitter. If those don't work, there is always Wardrobe Wizard and XDresser. Again, none of this is hard, but it does require the end-user to do a little work. Oh, and it helps if the vendor does a decent job making the clothing.

These are simple steps that anyone can do, it's just that most folks on this board would rather whine than actually learn to use the software.

Are those steps actually necessary to use the clothing or just for morph management/housekeeping?

For my workflow, it makes it easier to use the clothing - a little bit of work at the front end saves me hours on the back end.

Once one moves away from single character still images, one has to move away from a Poser 4 workflow and enter the 21st century. In Poser, one can easily decouple clothing from the figure it was designed for originally. If I slip Dawn, Pauline, or Sydney into a V4 outfit (And I have dozens of V4 outfits that have never been worn by V4), those V4 morphs are just hogging memory.

It also becomes necessary if you want to have a group scene. It is much easier to deal with a fully clothed figures in the 20 - 50Mb range than in the 1Gb range.

Poser gets a bit unresponsive once it goes past 6Gb in memory (On OSX). I used to hit that pretty regularly with 3 or 4 fully clothed figures. A Star Trek TOS Enterprise bridge has 13 positions to man. At 1 point I had 8 different bridges, based on camera angle, because I simply couldn't load all of the figures in a scene.

Even when there is only 1 character in the scene, I have found it necessary for the following reasons:

1. Conforming clothing NEVER has all of the morphs that come with dial-spun characters. If the character is a custom morph (and I have a number of those), then the chances of the FBM being in the clothing is 0, unless the clothing vendor made the character.
2. Conforming clothing never has any 3rd party morph sets.
3. It makes it easier to move the clothing from 1 base mesh to another, as mentioned earlier.
4. For me, characters as purchased, are a starting point not an end point. I adjust every figure, usually scaling back the size overall, and the boobage to where it actually matches real people.
5. Loading 500Mb of morphs into each piece of clothing can be a nightmare (example - add a morph that is already in the clothing and it never works again.)

It is about being productive - Not to mention the fact that the content takes up much less space in the runtime.

I hear people often talk down on Poser/Daz users that won’t create or mod their own content. I’ve done it myself, but wonder if it’s a bit unfair. I know when I got back into Poser 5 years ago after being away since about version 4 I was greatly excited by the content to be found at the various marketplaces that didn’t exist before. The ability to leverage a vendor’s technical skill and visual sense for your own art is very satisfying.

After Posering for a year or so it became obvious that even with the content now available there still wasn’t a enough of the things I needed for my own vision and concepts. Those items that did exist quickly drained my wallet. I started learning to kit bash, retexture, model, etc. because I had little choice. The reality is that any clothing or props I make at this point will pale in comparison to what the top quality vendors are selling in the marketplace. My currently feeble attempts at content creation will sit in the galleries next to the works of Aeon Soul, Stonemason, and the like. Plus I’ll spend untold hours trying to create these items. It’s a tremendous disincentive that I only pursue out of absolute necessity and the belief that I’ll slowly improve.

I don’t think I’m unique in that regard. I’m guessing that most of the more technically proficient, content creating users started out as load, pose, renderers. Many of the marketplace dependent users of today will graduate towards being more capable in the future. I think Daz has brought in a lot of new users recently. It’s hard to tell who is a neophyte and who is an old hand just from their forum comments. It is and should be an ongoing process of technical and artistic growth.

That said, it seems that Poser should allow for new users to get in and create easily with the ability for more experienced users to advance according to skill and desire. It will be difficult to attract new users long enough for them to explore advanced tools if they can’t excited about their initial attempts at Poser based art.