diogenese19348 posted at 2:45PM Wed, 21 March 2018 - #4326478

I am a pretty heavy buyer of content, and while I have used both Poser and D/S I vastly prefer D/S. Poser always seemed more difficult to work with, and I stopped updating it in 2012. In any case, I do buy a lot of poser props and environments - I can handle reshading them without a problem, it usually isn't necessary. What everybody is complaining about is the figures though - and Genesis 3 and 8 don't work in Poser because of some nefarious scheme by DAZ to destroy Poser, it's because Smith Micro can't be bothered to supply support for the figures. DAZ is in the business of selling content, who's program it is used in doesn't matter to them. Male_M3dia is completely correct, the place you should be sending those cards and letters to complaining about a lack of content for Poser is Smith Micro.

The wacky thing here is that Smith Micro doesn't create content, and really haven't put much time and effort into creating a market for it either, Content Paradise is woefully out of date. So they aren't in competition with DAZ either. It shouldn't matter to them who creates third party content.

So, you want content that works in Poser? You need to talk to the guys that maintain Poser to make them include support for content. That would be Smith Micro.

The funny thing was, a few years ago when PAs were working with the DSON importer and Poser to make content work in both programs, we told poser users to speak to SM about content because with the money we were making with DS content, we knew this day was coming because the market was shifting. And it's interesting now that people that bashed and attacked people that wanted content to work in both programs are in these threads complaining about the lack of Poser content, especially now that many of their mainstay vendors have switched programs to make a living. And if the effort was made by customers back then to hold SM to the fire to supply their needs, rather than badger stores and vendors, they would have had the content they need.

These days I'm not advocating the whole DS/SM content working bit, that time has passed; but what I am saying is that Poser users need to start listening to their vendors on what they need to stay in the market and make it easier to give you what you need and SM also needs to be responsive to give vendors the tools to make content easier. This lack of listening to what your vendors are asking for is why you have a figure on the market now that's hard to make conforming clothing for it and doesn't even have a pair of shoes on the market to buy.

Sorry was not clear...folks were complaining about the quality of the HUMANS included with new poser versions...and I'm like... why care about those, when the BEST (in my humble opinion) is Dawn Dusk, etc... just wish folks would support Dawn and Dusk with a good range of characters/skins... looks at my favorite character creators: Maddelirium, Seven, Addy, Silver...

Lyne posted at 9:53PM Thu, 22 March 2018 - #4326624

Sorry was not clear...folks were complaining about the quality of the HUMANS included with new poser versions...and I'm like... why care about those, when the BEST (in my humble opinion) is Dawn Dusk, etc... just wish folks would support Dawn and Dusk with a good range of characters/skins... looks at my favorite character creators: Maddelirium, Seven, Addy, Silver...

You were clear on your wanting figures for dawn and dusk; however after two pushes of those figures at this store it was also clear that Poser customers weren't remotely interested in those characters. I see none of the vendors you named losing money making characters for those figures when they sell so low in comparison to genesis or V4.

It is what it is.

Lyne posted at 9:53PM Thu, 22 March 2018 - #4326624

Sorry was not clear...folks were complaining about the quality of the HUMANS included with new poser versions...and I'm like... why care about those, when the BEST (in my humble opinion) is Dawn Dusk, etc... just wish folks would support Dawn and Dusk with a good range of characters/skins... looks at my favorite character creators: Maddelirium, Seven, Addy, Silver...

You were clear on your wanting figures for dawn and dusk; however after two pushes of those figures at this store it was also clear that Poser customers weren't remotely interested in those characters. I see none of the vendors you named losing money making characters for those figures when they sell so low in comparison to genesis or V4.

It is what it is.

Male_M3dia posted at 6:19PM Fri, 23 March 2018 - #4326238

mmalbert posted at 5:05PM Sat, 17 March 2018 - #4326232

Lyne makes a good point about the HiveWire figures. I don't know why the Poser community didn't more fully embrace them.

To be honest, there's an actual answer to that. But the answer would surely cause fights and be against the TOS. But simply, no they're not the same, so there's been no push by customers to invest in them. But I've seen 2 major pushes by this store to release that content for those figures, but looking at the "what's hot" during that time, the sales weren't there to support vendors doing more content.

I didn't say these figures were the same.

I said: "I use Dawn, Dusk, and Luna frequently and find them as serviceable as any of the Genesis figures. There are differences, some pros-and-cons, but they're solid figures with a dedicated team behind them."

At this point I don't expect support for Dawn and Dusk -- outside of HW itself -- to improve. And I still think that's too bad, because they're decent figures.

mmalbert posted at 7:03AM Sat, 24 March 2018 - #4326692

Male_M3dia posted at 6:19PM Fri, 23 March 2018 - #4326238

mmalbert posted at 5:05PM Sat, 17 March 2018 - #4326232

Lyne makes a good point about the HiveWire figures. I don't know why the Poser community didn't more fully embrace them.

To be honest, there's an actual answer to that. But the answer would surely cause fights and be against the TOS. But simply, no they're not the same, so there's been no push by customers to invest in them. But I've seen 2 major pushes by this store to release that content for those figures, but looking at the "what's hot" during that time, the sales weren't there to support vendors doing more content.

I didn't say these figures were the same.

I said: "I use Dawn, Dusk, and Luna frequently and find them as serviceable as any of the Genesis figures. There are differences, some pros-and-cons, but they're solid figures with a dedicated team behind them."

At this point I don't expect support for Dawn and Dusk -- outside of HW itself -- to improve. And I still think that's too bad, because they're decent figures.

As I said, I gave an answer that wouldn't break out in a fight, and still stand by that they're not the same and because of that, customer support for those figures hasn't materialized outside of hivewire. However the issue comes down how easy content is to make for these and other Poser figures; and that brings us back to listening to what the vendors need.

Ha, you so want a fight. Not worth it. Back on ignore you go.

It's never a fight when a comment is based in fact; i'm not talking opinions..this is pure sales/demand related. Saying a figure works for you is opinion, a figure not supported because customers aren't buying content vendors make is fact.

Facts are based on verifyable figures and independent reports. Yours are just opinions

wimvdb posted at 6:19PM Sat, 24 March 2018 - #4326751

Facts are based on verifyable figures and independent reports. Yours are just opinions

That is backed up by a thread where people are asking for content. That's why you all are here asking vendors to support your program, correct?

Instead of trying to fight with me, your energy is best directed at Smith Micro asking to help you resolve the situation, because fighting hasn't helped for years.. time to take your complaints to the source. I'm hitting the ignore button as well as this back and forth won't solve your problem. I'm trying to point you in the right direction.

This was mentioned on page 3 about D/S formats. I'm primarily a poser user but have been dabbling in D/s. I recently purchased a product that has a bad link in loading that asks for a particular texture that isn't there (or is actually a slightly different name. With Poser I could easily hand edit and correct Cr2s. Is there a way to hand edit .duf files?

Kazam561 posted at 11:01AM Wed, 28 March 2018 - #4326958

This was mentioned on page 3 about D/S formats. I'm primarily a poser user but have been dabbling in D/s. I recently purchased a product that has a bad link in loading that asks for a particular texture that isn't there (or is actually a slightly different name. With Poser I could easily hand edit and correct Cr2s. Is there a way to hand edit .duf files?

Yes you can, though some .duf files will be saved in a compressed format so you may need to run the .duf file through a decompressor app such as Winzip or 7zip. If it is not compressed you can open it directly in a text editor and make the edits as required. Though it maybe easier to make the changes directly in Daz Studio itself and then resave the file, just makes sure the original thumb is named as .png and not .duf.png and when re-saving and then delete the new thumb that is autogenerated with the .duf.png file name. If you are hand editing the .duf I would search and replace the broken file name or path to make sure you replace each instance of the file usage.

Thank you very much Razor42 :)

The ironic thing is that the only reason DAZ Studio even exists is that the original founders at DAZ were extremely worried about the long term fate of Poser as it bounced from owner to owner. After all, if Poser had gone under, there would have been no more market for DAZ product, so even though the first two versions of DS were less than impressive, it turns out that DAZ's worries were absolutely right. It's easy to cast Smith Micro as the "villain" in this piece, as their stewardship of Poser as both a program and a larger hobby has been characterized by a glacial pace of development and a never ending sideshow of ugly and unsupported new figures to cover the minimal software updates. But, at the same time, Poser users have to also look in the mirror and accept that the main reason that Poser has ceased to be the center of this hobby is that they let it happen via a mantra of "what we have is good enough." Sure, one can question whether DAZ was taking a crazy gamble when they dropped the V4 generation in favor of the Genesis figures, but on the flip side, the fact that the default figure for Poser is STILL V4, a twelve year old figure that was introduced two years before Smith Micro even entered the picture, and that the primary content included with Poser goes back even earlier to Poser 5 and 6, just goes to show how little initiative there's been and how little pressure there's been on SM to up their game over the years. At this point I'm not even sure if Poser can be saved, though any path to salvation is going to have to involve some major changes to the Poser business model. At the very least, Poser needs to settle on a default set of figures and stick with them, and Poser users need to SUPPORT those figures rather than clinging to a hacked version of V4 like an aging punk rocker who still listens to everything on cassette tapes. In my ideal world, that would mean either Poser running Genesis natively or Smith Micro permanently licensing Dawn/Dusk from Hivewire, and for Content Paradise to be taken out of SM's negligent hands and merged into better run store... and it's pretty obvious who the logical candidate for that would be. Of course, the least likely part of all of those scenarios is the notion that Poser users will move away from V4. At this point it's like watching that old guy on the corner who keeps getting his Ford Tempo repaired over and over on the grounds that it's cheaper than buying a new car. At some point there's going to come a time when there are no more old Tempo parts to be scavenged, just as, at some point, DAZ will eventually pull the plug on V4. You can only put off the inevitable for so long...

SM doesn't really want to go into making figures, especially with Daz pushing theirs so hard. Back when it was owned by EFrontier, you did have Terai Yuki which while not a great figure, it certainly was a very cute figure without going to the extremes of some anime characters (some toon characters here as well). There are other 3rd party figures. I picked up Maisie here and it's actually quite nice. I wish there was a less toony version (or face, including the other face and body morph it comes with) in maybe a morph pack addition. Part of the problem is the Poser community can't seem to get really behind Poser figures as much as the D/S community does. New characters sometimes get unfairly attacked like Scarlett did without realizing it was a first version and much smaller development team than Daz fields for it's characters. Renderosity and Hivewire have tried to support new characters (and even RDNA did it) with waves of content but Poser users seem to hesitate to watch development so sales start off weak. Honestly even at Daz there's no one character fits all. Their character development cycle turns over very quickly so one tends to spend a lot on either new content for the new character, or re-issued content that's now fitted to the new character (yes there's a lot of vendors that do that).

As far as development cycles being glacial, well Daz Studio's development is just as slow. Adding new features costs employee hours and wages, and often different versions usually sometimes wait for a paid release. D/S doesn't cost but there was a time when it did. Besides, how often would you pay for new features if they were released every year? Would you want a subscription fee like Adobe Photoshop does? I certainly don't.

In releasing new features, I prefer time given to quashing bugs and to bug testing. On a side note Windows 10 gets a big free update this Tuesday but will it bork your computer? Hopefully not.

Kazam561 posted at 10:06PM Wed, 04 April 2018 - #4327471

SM doesn't really want to go into making figures, especially with Daz pushing theirs so hard.

I won't go into other parts of your thread, especially the DAZ dev cycle being slow, since it isn't at all true and unnecessary. The focus should be on getting Poser users what they need and this is what the thread is about. I highlighted this sentence, because if poser users and SM doesn't want to have anything to do with DAZ, this whole mindset has to change. They have to fill the void not only with figures, but with working with vendors to make sure they're getting what they need to make content. There's been a dearth of poser content using the latest features because they were made ignoring what vendors need.. you look in rendo's store and your see lots of DAZ products, particularly dynamic clothing that was just added to the program (hence there hasn't been glacial development, and you haven't heard a peep from SM since November).. and the dynamic clothing was done in such a way that vendors could set them up easier... that's how the software company is supposed to work with vendors... unlike unsupported figures and a lack of products using superfly shaders because making them is vendor-unfriendly.

Male_M3dia posted at 1:00PM Thu, 05 April 2018 - #4327476

Kazam561 posted at 10:06PM Wed, 04 April 2018 - #4327471

SM doesn't really want to go into making figures, especially with Daz pushing theirs so hard.

I won't go into other parts of your thread, especially the DAZ dev cycle being slow, since it isn't at all true and unnecessary. The focus should be on getting Poser users what they need and this is what the thread is about. I highlighted this sentence, because if poser users and SM doesn't want to have anything to do with DAZ, this whole mindset has to change. They have to fill the void not only with figures, but with working with vendors to make sure they're getting what they need to make content. There's been a dearth of poser content using the latest features because they were made ignoring what vendors need.. you look in rendo's store and your see lots of DAZ products, particularly dynamic clothing that was just added to the program (hence there hasn't been glacial development, and you haven't heard a peep from SM since November).. and the dynamic clothing was done in such a way that vendors could set them up easier... that's how the software company is supposed to work with vendors... unlike unsupported figures and a lack of products using superfly shaders because making them is vendor-unfriendly.

Very well said.

Characters are a tough issue. The base character almost has to be owned by a company at this point, and vendors manipulate that base mesh. The power of the DAZ Genesis line is that if somebody does a morphed body type (monster, animal or merely an unusually shaped human) you know all the clothing and props you already have are going to be usable - usually without too much trouble. You aren't buying a whole new wardrobe all the time, and your character isn't limited. That's the main problem I have with all the stand alone figures people come up with for Poser - some of which are quite good, but you're going to have limited clothes and accessories for them. It's the nature of the beast. It's why I never used the DAZ version of Dawn or Dusk.

And yes, I'd have to say with the Genesis gene pool, there really is "one character fits all". Or as close to it as you can possibly come. I think the fact Smith Micro will not put the capability of using it into Poser is going to kill Poser. If they don't want to use DAZ's version, they need to come up with their own. Not another pair of stand-alone figures.

Poser's fitting room does work pretty well on converting a good amount of clothing (though often you need to help it along).

Kazam561 posted at 9:48AM Thu, 05 April 2018 - #4327471

SM doesn't really want to go into making figures, especially with Daz pushing theirs so hard.

Excuse me? Making figures is all SM does. Almost every new iteration of Poser comes with a completely new set of figures - Paul and Pauline, Rex & Roxy, Allyson 1 & 2 and Ryan 1 & 2, Sydney & Simon, Jessie 1 & 2 and James 1 & 2, Don & Judy... and that's not counting the huge glob of old 2nd party stuff like Creech, Beta Boy, the Grey Alien...

What they DON'T do is actually support those characters after release, so after a handful of outfits at best, they all end up on the ash heap of poser history and most of their assets have little appeal once those are no longer the figure of the month, and promptly disappear from the market. Whereas with DAZ, EVERY new generation of figure that they've produced has been designed to have at least some level of backwards compatibility with the previous generations of product, something that DAZ has doubled down on since they entered the Genesis era. Working in DS I can still use my old v4 and V3 outfits on G3F and G8F, with textures converted from poser & 3DL to iray, using older poses and so on, all with only a few keystrokes. That gives the DAZ assets a sense of long term value that makes buying their newer products feel like a fair deal.

Back when it was owned by EFrontier, you did have Terai Yuki which while not a great figure, it certainly was a very cute figure without going to the extremes of some anime characters (some toon characters here as well).

Actually, Terai Yuki existed as a commercial figure in Japan long before she sub-licensed and ported to Poser as TY2, and even had her own series of animated films. By the standards of the time that she was created in she was a fantastic figure, but you have to remember that her contemporaries were Posette, Victoria 1/2 and Judy.

New characters sometimes get unfairly attacked like Scarlett did without realizing it was a first version and much smaller development team than Daz fields for it's characters. Renderosity and Hivewire have tried to support new characters (and even RDNA did it) with waves of content but Poser users seem to hesitate to watch development so sales start off weak.

Yep. One of the fundamental problem that Poser has had is that its' users are their own worst enemies. By digging in and entrenching around a figure base that ceased development a decade ago, they're now looking enviously at all the toys the other kids are getting and realizing that the market has passed them by. The ironic thing is that there has been FAR more product produced for the V4 generation than any of the other generations, but the mechanics of the Renderosity store have worked to purge a large portion of it out of the system since that product clearly didn't sell well enough to stay in the store. And that's really the key issue - PAs have cut back on making product for V4/Poser because the Poser user base wasn't buying enough of the new product being made to justify the continued production of more of the same. At some point it simply stops being a business decision on the part of the PAs involved and becomes something more like making a donation to charity.

As far as development cycles being glacial, well Daz Studio's development is just as slow. Nope, that's not even close to true. DS gets updated constantly, with major updates about every nine months on average and more new features have been added to DS in just the six years since DS 4 was launched than in the entire ten years since Poser was acquired by Smith Micro. Under Curious Labs and E-Frontier Poser was developed at an incredibly robust rate, but SM's idea of an upgrade for Poser has been to add something that was previously available as an add-on (wardrobe wizard, bullet physics,) make a few minor changes to some tool set and toss in a new pair of ugly main figures that no one will ever use. But hey, SM's best selling product, Manga Studio (now called Clip Studio) has had even less developer love than Poser. :/

Besides, how often would you pay for new features if they were released every year? Would you want a subscription fee like Adobe Photoshop does? I certainly don't.

Well, I actually prefer the idea of getting all the new features for free as an enticement to buy new products that utilize those features, which is the current DS model, but I do subscribe to Adobe and have found it to be better model for me given that I use multiple Adobe programs and would have been updating them regularly anyway.

In releasing new features, I prefer time given to quashing bugs and to bug testing.

I rarely upgrade to the new version of anything immediately. On the other hand, DAZ let's you run both a beta and the latest stable version simultaneously, so you get the best of both worlds.

May I ask a question? Why is it so hard to develop for Poser now? How do we fix that? I checked it out and P11 pro looks like a pretty neat program with an emphasis on animation and render options not present in Daz. I would rather not spend a lot of money on the software, but if I were to start making things, I don't see how I could put them out for Poser people without having a copy of Poser for testing. I have a copy of Poser 7 I bought years ago, but I didn't really fall in love with it and circumstances prevented spending much time with it. Obviously not latest or greatest. I envision workflow going from Blender to Daz/Poser. The Daz part seems pretty clear. Not sure about Poser. I have to ask the question.

May I make a long-winded statement? You don't have to read it, but I'll read any replies. I got Daz because Daz was free and I spent a fair amount of money on content. I never bought content before. I actually bought a lot of V4 stuff because it looked good and it was really cheap. I supplemented what I spent with the deluge of free stuff Daz pours out over the holidays, including a V7 Pro pack. So, I have V7. I have samples of all the generations of figures. I have so much stuff that it is taking me time to process what I've got. Also, Daz is a surprisingly deep and competent program. I don't know what I expected, but the more I work with it, the more impressed I am.

At the same time, I buy stuff here. I love Maddelirium's figures and I'm most pleased with various items I've bought from Sabby, Vyktohria, Exnem, Sveva, Seven, Silver and on. Imho, very talented people here. I actually let my PC+ lapse so I could pay more attention to vendors here. I'm still accumulating stuff at an alarming rate. Somehow, I ended up with a comp Prime subscription in February and we just had the Easter Grab Bag. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I have my own thought about V4. She will be around as long as her stuff sells. She has a lot of stuff, and a lot of it is really good. As an executive at FB once said, the winner is not the best product. It's the product everyone uses. If people still use V4, V4 will stay. Compatibility goes both ways and there are V4 clones for all the Genesis figures. V4 content may live forever. And why not?

I have read a lot of arguments for why the new figures must ultimately win, and I'm not totally convinced. All these figures are globs of geometry with bones stuck in them and textures stuck on them. I've read some say, Dual Quaternion Skin. Yeah. I found some white papers. That's not inherent to the figure. It's a feature of the 3D engine. Mathematically, it's a different way of handling bone-driven geometry. There's also a spherical method. Same with SSS, It's not a feature of the figure. It's a feature of the render engine. If you load V4 geometry and rig it in a program that has a DQS engine, V4 will have DQS. If a figure has a problem with articulation, one can correct that through a combination of morph, bone adjustment and mesh smoothing. Right?

As an aside, I've ended up with a ridiculous collection of M4/V4 pose and parameter morphs. I had a complaint that Daz figures seemed to lack nasolabial folds. That's actually false. It's in the morphs. I'm using them and making my characters look a little different. I know. Proof is in the renders. I will supply when I'm comfortable to show the work. Sorry. Still working through the various texture methods. Patience. Thanks

Let's move on to clothing fit. I expect any item of clothing, prop, or accessory can be fitted to most any figure. I'm researching and experimenting. So far, seems to be true. I don't know what other people are doing, but I looked for info on fitting clothes and I learned how to unhide the scale tools and how to apply mesh smooth modifier to make clothes fit, no poke-through. Once I had the controls, making clothes fit was easy. I put V4 stuff on G3 figures, I put G3 stuff on V4. I know. G8 is the now. I'll get there. I have stuff

Thanks CybersoxXIII. I didn't realize Terai Yuki was licensed. I have to say I'm surprised she didn't catch on here as well as elsewhere. And on newer figures you are correct. I missed (though I've picked up Pauline and some Roxie stuff here) mentioning the others.

On somewhat related side note, why do certain new figures have speed skater's thighs?? It seems a big trend now.

I will say I've tinkered with and had some success at converting some duf items to poser to fit V4 for my own personal use in artwork. Long sleeve outfits are the trickiest and require a fair amount of extra work..

Torquinox posted at 2:00PM Thu, 05 April 2018 - #4327501

May I ask a question? Why is it so hard to develop for Poser now?

From what I've read in many PA's quotes, it's not that it's necessarily HARDER to develop content for Poser, but the fact that fewer and fewer people are BUYING content for Poser... to the point where many PAs no longer consider the extra effort involved in making things fully Poser ready worth the effort when that same time could be devoted to making more content that sells more than well enough even though it's for DS only.

I have my own thought about V4. She will be around as long as her stuff sells. She has a lot of stuff, and a lot of it is really good. As an executive at FB once said, the winner is not the best product. It's the product everyone uses. If people still use V4, V4 will stay. Compatibility goes both ways and there are V4 clones for all the Genesis figures. V4 content may live forever. And why not?

Absolutely true as long as everything you've just mentioned is meant to be a correct statement for users of DAZ Studio. The options are a lot less clear for Poser users and it all goes back to the original major rift in this hobby, which was when Poser's owner at the time, Curious Labs, introduced a major change in the way Poser materials were handled in Poser Pro Pack and Poser 5. Ironically, DAZ's older renderer, 3DL, actually uses the same basic material setup that Poser used up through Poser 4, whereas any items made for Poser and not sold through DAZ after that date may use materials and other programing tricks that simply didn't work in 3DL. With the introduction of Iray as the new primary DS renderer, we're seeing the opposite situation - many Iray materials simply don't work properly in Poser's firefly renderer, so, to make a product that works properly in both DS and Poser means having to make not one, not two, but three different sets of textures just to cover the basics. And keep in mind that that's before we even get into the fact that DS and Poser also use different weightmapping systems, dynamic cloth systems, lights, etc., etc. In the end, it's a lot of extra work to support to support both and we've hit the point where many artists at DAZ aren't even bothering to support 3DL anymore and only doing Iray textures because that's what sells.

Whereas, apparently, we've hit the point where product that is being made specifically for Poser is no longer selling well enough for many PAs to keep making it. Of course, the fact that many PAs are switching to DS only means that they're going to be supporting the newest generation of DAZ tech. So, we've come into what's almost a complete inversion of the market ten years ago when almost everything worked in Poser and DS users were often left out in the cold... a situation that has Poser only users feeling the burn of being the less desired part of the market.

I have read a lot of arguments for why the new figures must ultimately win, and I'm not totally convinced. All these figures are globs of geometry with bones stuck in them and textures stuck on them. I've read some say, Dual Quaternion Skin. Yeah. I found some white papers. That's not inherent to the figure. It's a feature of the 3D engine. Mathematically, it's a different way of handling bone-driven geometry. There's also a spherical method. Same with SSS, It's not a feature of the figure. It's a feature of the render engine. If you load V4 geometry and rig it in a program that has a DQS engine, V4 will have DQS. If a figure has a problem with articulation, one can correct that through a combination of morph, bone adjustment and mesh smoothing. Right?

Well, first, there's also weight mapping, which is different between the two systems, and some other technical differences that simply don't play together. Up through Genesis 2, DAZ took it on themselves to produce DSON files that let their DS dedicated products work within Poser, but with Genesis 3 DAZ finally decided to stop trying to pander to the Poser market. As far as V4 lasting as long as there's a market for her... basically true if you ignore the fact that DAZ owns and controls V4 and, if they really wanted to stick the knife in and twist, they could just raise the price on her to a crazy amount or even pull her from the market. Honestly, I sometimes wonder if the only thing that's kept that from happening so far is the fact that Hivewire's Dawn would probably just fill that void in the market, and by keeping V4 and her kin so cheap DAZ has effectively kept Hivewire from gaining a more dominant position in the hobby.

Let's move on to clothing fit. I expect any item of clothing, prop, or accessory can be fitted to most any figure. I'm researching and experimenting. So far, seems to be true. I >don't know what other people are doing, but I looked for info on fitting clothes and I learned how to unhide the scale tools and how to apply mesh smooth modifier to make >clothes fit, no poke-through. Once I had the controls, making clothes fit was easy. I put V4 stuff on G3 figures, I put G3 stuff on V4. I know. G8 is the now. I'll get there. I have >stuff

It can be done in either program and there are some third party programs that also allow you to refit items, but there's nothing else as fast and simple as DS's autofit. More than anything else, the convenience of being able to put the same outfit on any figure with just a couple of mouse clicks was what got me to switch from a Poser user who occasionally used DS to a DS user who occasionally uses Poser.

CybersoxXIII posted at 3:28PM Thu, 05 April 2018 - #4327507

Torquinox posted at 2:00PM Thu, 05 April 2018 - #4327501

May I ask a question? Why is it so hard to develop for Poser now?

From what I've read in many PA's quotes, it's not that it's necessarily HARDER to develop content for Poser, but the fact that fewer and fewer people are BUYING content for Poser... to the point where many PAs no longer consider the extra effort involved in making things fully Poser ready worth the effort when that same time could be devoted to making more content that sells more than well enough even though it's for DS only.

I've read that, but there are vendors like Cybertenko and Dante78 who plow forward with a steady stream of primarily Poser products. I'm wondering if it would be enough to fire up my old Poser 7 and at least see if I can get OBJ models going in that. But would that be enough? If their renderer is not supported consistently across Poser versions, then materials become a problem.

I have my own thought about V4. She will be around as long as her stuff sells. She has a lot of stuff, and a lot of it is really good. As an executive at FB once said, the winner is not the best product. It's the product everyone uses. If people still use V4, V4 will stay. Compatibility goes both ways and there are V4 clones for all the Genesis figures. V4 content may live forever. And why not?

Absolutely true as long as everything you've just mentioned is meant to be a correct statement for users of DAZ Studio. The options are a lot less clear for Poser users and it all goes back to the original major rift in this hobby, which was when Poser's owner at the time, Curious Labs, introduced a major change in the way Poser materials were handled in Poser Pro Pack and Poser 5. Ironically, DAZ's older renderer, 3DL, actually uses the same basic material setup that Poser used up through Poser 4, whereas any items made for Poser and not sold through DAZ after that date may use materials and other programing tricks that simply didn't work in 3DL. With the introduction of Iray as the new primary DS renderer, we're seeing the opposite situation - many Iray materials simply don't work properly in Poser's firefly renderer, so, to make a product that works properly in both DS and Poser means having to make not one, not two, but three different sets of textures just to cover the basics. And keep in mind that that's before we even get into the fact that DS and Poser also use different weightmapping systems, dynamic cloth systems, lights, etc., etc. In the end, it's a lot of extra work to support to support both and we've hit the point where many artists at DAZ aren't even bothering to support 3DL anymore and only doing Iray textures because that's what sells.

Yes, I'm looking at it from the Daz side. Sorry. I can't do anything about the rift. I see how changing the renderer and the way textures work could be a problem. Too bad about 3DL textures. I think it's a pretty nice renderer, but it has to be cumbersome maintaining two entirely different lighting systems. The problem may be more than skin deep, too. V7 Frankie has a 3DL texture, but it crashes Daz whenever I try to use it. Iray is great for now but licensing agreements don't always last.

Whereas, apparently, we've hit the point where product that is being made specifically for Poser is no longer selling well enough for many PAs to keep making it. Of course, the fact that many PAs are switching to DS only means that they're going to be supporting the newest generation of DAZ tech. So, we've come into what's almost a complete inversion of the market ten years ago when almost everything worked in Poser and DS users were often left out in the cold... a situation that has Poser only users feeling the burn of being the less desired part of the market.

You make a lot of good points.

I have read a lot of arguments for why the new figures must ultimately win, and I'm not totally convinced. All these figures are globs of geometry with bones stuck in them and textures stuck on them. I've read some say, Dual Quaternion Skin. Yeah. I found some white papers. That's not inherent to the figure. It's a feature of the 3D engine. Mathematically, it's a different way of handling bone-driven geometry. There's also a spherical method. Same with SSS, It's not a feature of the figure. It's a feature of the render engine. If you load V4 geometry and rig it in a program that has a DQS engine, V4 will have DQS. If a figure has a problem with articulation, one can correct that through a combination of morph, bone adjustment and mesh smoothing. Right?

Well, first, there's also weight mapping, which is different between the two systems, and some other technical differences that simply don't play together. Up through Genesis 2, DAZ took it on themselves to produce DSON files that let their DS dedicated products work within Poser, but with Genesis 3 DAZ finally decided to stop trying to pander to the Poser market. As far as V4 lasting as long as there's a market for her... basically true if you ignore the fact that DAZ owns and controls V4 and, if they really wanted to stick the knife in and twist, they could just raise the price on her to a crazy amount or even pull her from the market. Honestly, I sometimes wonder if the only thing that's kept that from happening so far is the fact that Hivewire's Dawn would probably just fill that void in the market, and by keeping V4 and her kin so cheap DAZ has effectively kept Hivewire from gaining a more dominant position in the hobby.

I see. I don't know much about Hivewire or Dawn. I've been to their site. I would be surprised to see Daz stick the knife in. I don't think it's their plan. To them, V4 is obsolete. They're obviously making moves to woo the bigger players in 3D, but I think it costs them nothing to keep V4 alive. They stock a lot of V4 content in their PC+ program. They offer it on incredible discount at intervals. They give it away as monthly freebies and in promos. I think to them, it's a good line of products to offer as a sort of loss-leader. You can even get V3 stuff, if you want it. It's what GOG does with old games.

Let's move on to clothing fit. I expect any item of clothing, prop, or accessory can be fitted to most any figure. I'm researching and experimenting. So far, seems to be true. I >don't know what other people are doing, but I looked for info on fitting clothes and I learned how to unhide the scale tools and how to apply mesh smooth modifier to make >clothes fit, no poke-through. Once I had the controls, making clothes fit was easy. I put V4 stuff on G3 figures, I put G3 stuff on V4. I know. G8 is the now. I'll get there. I have >stuff

It can be done in either program and there are some third party programs that also allow you to refit items, but there's nothing else as fast and simple as DS's autofit. More than anything else, the convenience of being able to put the same outfit on any figure with just a couple of mouse clicks was what got me to switch from a Poser user who occasionally used DS to a DS user who occasionally uses Poser.

When I use it, the Autofit item needs adjustment. I'm glad it works for other people. Thank you for your reply. Very helpful.

I hope it doesn't come down to the Fitting Room being the last hope. I bought Poser Pro 2014 largely because of it. I've never had a single decent result from the Fitting Room, even when I try to go from fairly basic humanoid form that the same general scale and proportions. Granted, I did not spend a lot of time on it over the years and I have not tried it in quite a long time with any seriousness. I briefly tried the Fitting Room again with Dawn, but.. It didn't go well... Poser Pro 2014 turned out to be worth the investment, though, thanks to the morphing brush tools (which is an awesome tool once I sat down and learned how to use it to fix minor poke-through thanks to Sixus1's tutorial) and the "Copy Morphs From," and a few other bells and whistles. Most of my time with Poser Pro 2014 since last January has been spent rebuilding all my runtimes from scratch after colossal tech disaster (and this came after spending almost six months away from Poser in 20166 because I was without a Poser-worthy rendering machine after the computer malfunctioned). I've had to fix large percentages of my Poser purchases from days gone by (for things like bad texture references because everything gets checked out before i put it in my new runtimes). I get little time at the PC these days, so it's slow, frustrating work and I think about throwing in the towel with Poser and everything 3D about every other day. I haven't, because part of me still remembers late 2005 to 2007 (and a few intervals since, brief though they were) when Poser was still fun. I'd like to get back to the fun stuff, some day.

Honestly, I understand why Smith Micro hasn't bowed to the pressure to make the newest Daz figures work inside of Poser, at least to some degree. It would leave them at Daz's mercy every time Daz changes formats or technical directions on a whim. People would expect Smith Micro to roll out new tech to go along with it every time. We would probably see even slower progress in Poser's fixing long-standing issues and adding new bells and whistles in newer versions of Poser. I honestly can't say I think that them bowing to the pressure and adding that support for the newer Daz figures would do Poser any good in the long run. But, I'm just a lowly mostly hobbyist (and small-fry Renderosity vendor) with a small budget, so I may be wrong.

I'm a Poser-only user. I'm still here toiling away, even after 2016's & 2017's disasters and pains. I'm still buying some new releases. I'm still buying some back-catalog stuff. Not a lot, because my Poser budget is ever-shrinking these days due to personal circumstances. I don't have time or money to invest in content that I have to learn how to shoe-horn into working in Poser. If it's not Poser-ready, my money doesn't fly across to cyberspace into the 3D sites' pockets. It is getting a little harder, month-by-month, for me to justify patronizing the stores of vendors whom have already turned their backs on Poser and their former Poser customers, when it comes to deep back catalog stuff. I intend to stop doing as much back catalog shopping and start giving more of my small budget to vendors whom are still actively supporting Poser.

Poserverse has been an interesting learning experience, that's for sure. LOL I've made some friends (and lost quite a few). I've learned a lot, even though I don't have an art background. I may not be an "artist," but the road has been... interesting.

Being ok with everything that's going on(or not) with them. Blaming all their problems on someone else. has created a complacent company. They dont need loyalty to the end right now, What they need is a swift kick in the butt to get their act together. complacency will kill any company eventually.

tiggersprings posted at 1:01PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - #4327551

Honestly, I understand why Smith Micro hasn't bowed to the pressure to make the newest Daz figures work inside of Poser, at least to some degree. It would leave them at Daz's mercy every time Daz changes formats or technical directions on a whim.

Again, this should be a serious conversation about how SM can get poser users the content they need. At DAZ's mercy? Poser users mostly use V4.. who owns that? That line of logic means you were already at their mercy since Victoria 3. SM's continuing lack of effort has lead to the situation today... and threads like this.

Now that we've thrown that argument away, the focus should be on SM, not anything perceived as what DAZ is doing. As I've said before, if poser users don't want to have anything to do with DAZ, they should have held SM's feet to the fire years ago to help vendors so that they would not have to migrate to make DAZ products because that's where the users migrated in addition to not buying enough Poser products to support their vendors.

Seriously, you bought poser.. if there's an issue with poser users not getting content then SM is to blame.

Actually, I mostly use toon figures and have for years, so you're making an assumption there. Currently, I don't even have V4 (or any other generation of Daz adult figure re-installed). I've only gotten as far as installing Kids 4, as of yet. When i have a few minutes to sit down and work on re-installing stuff, I'm working on the pre-K4 child figures, not that it matters to anyone other than myself. Here is my prograss, sans K4, if you care to take a look.

http://fav.me/dbuf4cq

Yeah, I do buy Daz Generation 4 stuff. I went years without doing so, though. I've only been using Daz Generation 4 stuff since late 2011. I gave up on them in 2007 because I had unresolved issues with v4 and my computer at the time. When I upgraded to the previous PC, I began playing with Pre-Genesis Generation 4.

tiggersprings posted at 12:33PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - #4327568

Actually, I mostly use toon figures and have for years, so you're making an assumption there. Currently, I don't even have V4 (or any other generation of Daz adult figure re-installed). I've only gotten as far as installing Kids 4, as of yet. When i have a few minutes to sit down and work on re-installing stuff, I'm working on the pre-K4 child figures, not that it matters to anyone other than myself. Here is my prograss, sans K4, if you care to take a look.

http://fav.me/dbuf4cq

Yeah, I do buy Daz Generation 4 stuff. I went years without doing so, though. I've only been using Daz Generation 4 stuff since late 2011. I gave up on them in 2007 because I had unresolved issues with v4 and my computer at the time. When I upgraded to the previous PC, I began playing with Pre-Genesis Generation 4.

What happen to all your stuff?

TheDarkerSideOfArt posted at 12:38PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - #4327571

What happen to all your stuff?

The external drive that housed my runtimes malfunctioned in January 2017. I found out at the same time that my backup was unresponsive. So, rebuilding from scratch.

tiggersprings posted at 2:15PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - #4327568

Actually, I mostly use toon figures and have for years, so you're making an assumption there.

In my post I said mostly.. and K4 is still a DAZ product.

tiggersprings posted at 2:15PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - #4327568

Actually, I mostly use toon figures and have for years, so you're making an assumption there.

In my post I said mostly.. and K4 is still a DAZ product.

Yes, true. Honestly, I haven't used K4 much. I usually render toons, as I said.

Male_M3dia posted at 2:37PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - [#4327564](

Now that we've thrown that argument away, the focus should be on SM, not anything perceived as what DAZ is doing. As I've said before, if poser users don't want to have anything to do with DAZ, they should have held SM's feet to the fire years ago to help vendors so that they would not have to migrate to make DAZ products because that's where the users migrated in addition to not buying enough Poser products to support their vendors.

The problem, unfortunately, is two-fold. First, there's the simple fact that a large portion of the Poser base allowed themselves to fall into the "good enough" syndrome. Poser with V4 generation product was good enough for them, they already had invested in the key V4 base products, so why invest heavily in new ones if what they had worked? But not investing in new base products tends to lead to less and less new product being purchased overall, and in the long term that's going to stifle innovation as well. Did anyone really think that support would exist for the new SuperFly renderer when the Hivewire figures, which had a lot more potential for helping turn the Poser market around, are still struggling to find a space in a market dominated by a hacked version of a much older product? The BIGGER problem, though, is that there has been a fundamental misconception by many in the user base as to who and what Smith Micro is and how important Poser is to SM in general. Because Smith Micro is NOT "the company that makes Poser." Smith Micro is a company whose primary business these days is in wireless communication, which happens to have bought the rights to Poser back in 2008 as part of a much larger series of acquisitions, and Poser is just one small part of a small subdivision of the company. Worse, Poser isn't even SM's best selling graphic product, as that title goes to Manga Studio, and the company as a whole has been struggling to achieve profitability for years. Under those conditions, it's unwise to anticipate SM spending any more time and effort developing Poser than absolutely necessary, and the fact that a large portion of the Poser user base has been so actively adamant in the support of older tech has only served as a green light to cut that spending to the bone. After all, why spend money you don't have to, especially when pushing the edge can actually risk a major backlash like DAZ got with the introduction of Genesis?

By comparison, DAZ 3D's business is, and always has been, selling 3D models and figures. If they don't keep selling figures and accessories, they're out of business, so keeping this market alive and growing was an absolute necessity for their survival. Had the Poser base alone been sufficient to guarantee a steadily growing market for DAZ's product, there would have been little need to develop DAZ Studio at all. However, it obviously wasn't sufficient for DAZ's designs, and the fact that the market for DS product is apparently thriving while Poser-specific production seems to be gasping for breath is pretty indicative that no matter who was "right" or "wrong" in the whole DS/Poser split, the v4/Genesis controversy or the various Firefly/3DL/Iray decisions, the end result is that DAZ's path has come out as the clear winner from a business perspective. And while this may be just a hobby for most of us, many of the people who actually make the toys we play with have to treat it as a business as well and go where the money is.

tiggersprings posted at 11:04PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - #4327573

TheDarkerSideOfArt posted at 12:38PM Fri, 06 April 2018 - #4327571

What happen to all your stuff?

The external drive that housed my runtimes malfunctioned in January 2017. I found out at the same time that my backup was unresponsive. So, rebuilding from scratch.

wow sorry to hear that..well..at least you still have it though its a pita to install all that stuff again..but..at least you still have them.

TheDarkerSideOfArt posted at 9:36AM Sat, 07 April 2018 - #4327624

wow sorry to hear that..well..at least you still have it though its a pita to install all that stuff again..but..at least you still have them.

Thanks. It's very frustrating. I had wanted to re-do my runtimes someday, but not because of total disaster. I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing. This PC can only access about one in every three archive CDs and DVDs from the older computers, so.... Yet another lurch.

Some old stuff, I'm just not capable of fixing. So I'm losing some golden oldies of my purchased Poser content that way, too. Once in a while, I run across and oldie that, for whatever reason, Poser Pro 2014 just destroys and it's just above my knowledge levels to try to fix. With my luck, it's usually a favorite old toy, too.

CybersoxXIII posted at 9:13AM Sat, 07 April 2018 - #4327590

The problem, unfortunately, is two-fold. First, there's the simple fact that a large portion of the Poser base allowed themselves to fall into the "good enough" syndrome. Poser with V4 generation product was good enough for them, they already had invested in the key V4 base products, so why invest heavily in new ones if what they had worked?

Not really a large portion. It was really a small number of unqualified, but vocal people that decided to speak for the masses, silencing and intimidating any dissension that allowed poorly made figures to be "good enough". Rather than getting vendors involved, they also spoke for vendors although they hadn't sold a single thing in their lives; which ended up with a figure that had issues, including mesh and weight map, that made it hard to morph and develop for.. and just throwing the result at the vendors then saying "here, now make stuff for it".. and those that did, didn't recoup their investments with flop products because the buying public could care less about any tribal loyalty to software so much that they'll actually pay hard earned money for something that in no way they would want to use. And that's really the heart of the matter: things only become popular when customers want to buy its content and vendors make money off of that content to continue. And this scenario happened several times, with the same exact result. After several of these failed releases, it's not hard to imagine why vendors and customers moved to other platforms.

Male_M3dia posted at 10:29PM Sun, 08 April 2018 - #4327645

CybersoxXIII posted at 9:13AM Sat, 07 April 2018 - #4327590

The problem, unfortunately, is two-fold. First, there's the simple fact that a large portion of the Poser base allowed themselves to fall into the "good enough" syndrome. Poser with V4 generation product was good enough for them, they already had invested in the key V4 base products, so why invest heavily in new ones if what they had worked?

Not really a large portion. It was really a small number of unqualified, but vocal people that decided to speak for the masses, silencing and intimidating any dissension that allowed poorly made figures to be "good enough". Rather than getting vendors involved, they also spoke for vendors although they hadn't sold a single thing in their lives; which ended up with a figure that had issues, including mesh and weight map, that made it hard to morph and develop for.. and just throwing the result at the vendors then saying "here, now make stuff for it".. and those that did, didn't recoup their investments with flop products because the buying public could care less about any tribal loyalty to software so much that they'll actually pay hard earned money for something that in no way they would want to use. And that's really the heart of the matter: things only become popular when customers want to buy its content and vendors make money off of that content to continue. And this scenario happened several times, with the same exact result. After several of these failed releases, it's not hard to imagine why vendors and customers moved to other platforms.

The sad thing is that I couldn't figure out which company/group you were talking about from the text of your response, because parts of the scenario you sketched out pretty much fit all the various players at various points. SM, DAZ, the users, the vendors... there have been a lot of missteps by all involved in the last ten years, and in retrospect a lot of it turned out to be a "Blind Men describing the Elephant" situation where very few people had access to all of the same facts at the same time. ;/

I think the difference in philosophy between the two companies is DAZ's product is the content - the program is just the means to use it. With Smith Micro, the product is the program, the content is just what it creates. The difference is the program can only be sold once per user - Smith Micro either has to grow it's user base or sell upgrades to recover it's development costs. DAZ on the other hand can focus on creating new content, changes to the program can be incremental, and they don't have to package them to justify buying an upgrade.

A lot of us that do 3D art do not have the time to create all the content from scratch, even if we took the time to learn the programs well enough to do it. We pay someone else to put those building blocks together so we can make our art. That's why sites such as this one exists.

Smith Micro, in any of their products, has never been focused on the end user, they are focused on business to business sales. If you look at the company itself that becomes obvious.

Sadly Poser ended up in the wrong hands.

Male_M3dia posted at 11:07AM Mon, 09 April 2018 - #4327645

Not really a large portion. It was really a small number of unqualified, but vocal people that decided to speak for the masses, silencing and intimidating any dissension that allowed poorly made figures to be "good enough". Rather than getting vendors involved, they also spoke for vendors although they hadn't sold a single thing in their lives; which ended up with a figure that had issues, including mesh and weight map, that made it hard to morph and develop for.. and just throwing the result at the vendors then saying "here, now make stuff for it".. and those that did, didn't recoup their investments with flop products because the buying public could care less about any tribal loyalty to software so much that they'll actually pay hard earned money for something that in no way they would want to use. And that's really the heart of the matter: things only become popular when customers want to buy its content and vendors make money off of that content to continue. And this scenario happened several times, with the same exact result. After several of these failed releases, it's not hard to imagine why vendors and customers moved to other platforms.

It sounds as though you think Poser experts--and other "important" people involved in Poser--are the only ones you think should be allowed to have--and voice--opinions about Poser. And likely only if their opinions happen to be the same as your personal opinions. Honestly, if you have such ill-feelings towards Poser users that still want content for their program of choice, why are you following this thread, especially if you're now using Daz Studio exclusively--and happy doing so? It seems to me every time people that are still using Poser, and still enjoying it for the most part, try to have open, public conversation about what they'd like to see for new Poser content, people like you come along and tell them, "Hey, you made your choice..." Yeah, people that are still using Poser did make their choice, but if you're so happy using Daz Studio, why harass people that are still, for the most part, enjoying using Poser? It seems to me life is too short to spend time grinding an ax, if you're no longer even using Poser (if you ever did).

pspchar posted at 12:30PM Mon, 09 April 2018 - #4327756

Male_M3dia posted at 11:07AM Mon, 09 April 2018 - #4327645

Not really a large portion. It was really a small number of unqualified, but vocal people that decided to speak for the masses, silencing and intimidating any dissension that allowed poorly made figures to be "good enough". Rather than getting vendors involved, they also spoke for vendors although they hadn't sold a single thing in their lives; which ended up with a figure that had issues, including mesh and weight map, that made it hard to morph and develop for.. and just throwing the result at the vendors then saying "here, now make stuff for it".. and those that did, didn't recoup their investments with flop products because the buying public could care less about any tribal loyalty to software so much that they'll actually pay hard earned money for something that in no way they would want to use. And that's really the heart of the matter: things only become popular when customers want to buy its content and vendors make money off of that content to continue. And this scenario happened several times, with the same exact result. After several of these failed releases, it's not hard to imagine why vendors and customers moved to other platforms.

It sounds as though you think Poser experts--and other "important" people involved in Poser--are the only ones you think should be allowed to have--and voice--opinions about Poser. And likely only if their opinions happen to be the same as your personal opinions. Honestly, if you have such ill-feelings towards Poser users that still want content for their program of choice, why are you following this thread, especially if you're now using Daz Studio exclusively--and happy doing so? It seems to me every time people that are still using Poser, and still enjoying it for the most part, try to have open, public conversation about what they'd like to see for new Poser content, people like you come along and tell them, "Hey, you made your choice..." Yeah, people that are still using Poser did make their choice, but if you're so happy using Daz Studio, why harass people that are still, for the most part, enjoying using Poser? It seems to me life is too short to spend time grinding an ax, if you're no longer even using Poser (if you ever did).

You didn't read anything I wrote. One can't speak for something that one doesn't know how to do. If one hardly buy products, then one can't speak for people that do. If one doesn't sell content, one simply can't speak for those that do... those people don't know how the process works, and workflows to make things. The problem is also when the voices of those that are qualified to make the decisions and opinions that should be valued are drowned out or stifled by those that aren't qualified. That's why you have had figure releases that have basically been DOA in because the "experts" are speaking for vendors and customers, and excluding vendors from the design process. This is why almost every figure has an issue that keeps vendors from touching it or customers from buying it. One can simply see that by looking at the 3D content percentages currently in the stores rather than trying to argue with me. My posts have been about give those people that make those products a voice so that poser users can get the content they need. Playing the blame game and telling people erroneously that they "have an ax to grind" is a distraction from helping vendors get the resources they need to produce Poser content.

It's really that simple.

Male_M3dia posted at 5:34PM Mon, 09 April 2018 - #4327757

My posts have been about give those people that make those products a voice so that poser users can get the content they need. Playing the blame game and telling people erroneously that they "have an ax to grind" is a distraction from helping vendors get the resources they need to produce Poser content.

It's really that simple.

Exactly. In the end, this hobby depends upon a huge amount of pre-made content to survive, and rather than being Poser users having an "open, public conversation about what they'd like to see for new Poser content", this thread is about how frustrated some Poser users are about the small amount of Poser compatible product that's being made compared to the massive volumes of new items being produced for DAZ. It's hardly the first thread on this subject and I doubt it will be the last, but the fact that threads like this exist at all points to the fact that there IS a problem. And the core of that problem is that while Smith Micro has been happy to take everyone's money for a new version of Poser every other year, they've essentially abandoned product support for just about everything else related to Poser to the hands of independent PAs and second party content stores. Like it or not, those PAs and stores are already deciding the future of Poser, so if PAs are moving to DS or cutting back on production, then knowing why those decisions are being made in the manner that they are is the best chance there is for effecting a positive change.

Interestingly enough, before Poser 11 was released, there was a blog posting on the main SM site about the new features in Poser and customers, who probably couldn't voice their opinion elsewhere because of these "experts", flooded the comments section demanding support for the newer DAZ figures.. it was right after the 2nd page of comments the blog comments were locked, and the next blog posts had comments disabled. That's really how SM valued their customer needs, so again, it's no wonder why the market is the way it is now.

I used to be a Poser user exclusively, bought all of the poser pro versions/upgrades. The latest version started constantly crashing on my old PC so I took a break for a year and when I got my new PC I reinstalled it and... it still kept crashing I got lucky if I finished one render, if it did not crash before that it would certainly do upon closing, that bothered me and I stopped using it.

I thought I was done with Poser more or less and by extension 3D. I too noticed the "content drought" before i resolved myself to giving up the hobby because the program got so frustrating and after having sunk SO SO much money into poser since Poser4 and content mostly for V4 that was discouraging. Seeing my favorite vendors move to DAZ sucked but honestly I totally understand, Bills are to be paid. Finally I began missing my 3D hobby so much I bit the bullet and tried DAZ and well loved it I can use most of my old content, make new materials for them and give them new life and autofit.. well let's just say it is leagues above the fitting room which I also could never get to work that well. And not for lack of trying I spent hours with tutorials and attempting to make it work.

Now I am so deep into Daz I would not return to poser and no amount of new content or new figures could change that. Most of the 3rd party figures and no offense meant to the creators I did not find worth investing to. The last time I did that I was sorely disappointed. I don't fault vendors for moving onto DAZ to pay their bills. Make the poser version and sell near to none of it or make a second DAZ product in the time that pays the electric bill that month? I'd be making that second DAZ product too.

I do not understand brand/product loyalty if the brand or product does nothing to keep your loyalty. Smith Micro lost my business because I am no longer confident in the product. I expect something that does not crash nonstop for the money I paid. Also, I'd love to use figures that work better than V4 are not as ugly as poser native figures or poorly supported like 3rd party figures. I vote with my wallet every time. Instead of faulting vendors for the problem people need to set their eyes on the real culprit. SM who have done nothing to be able to keep up with the times.

Laylah posted at 11:34AM Thu, 12 April 2018 - #4327953

I do not understand brand/product loyalty if the brand or product does nothing to keep your loyalty. Smith Micro lost my business because I am no longer confident in the product. I expect something that does not crash nonstop for the money I paid.

The problem is that we actually have two brands overlapping here. For many, the name Poser means the innovative program that served as a gateway for a lot of people to experiment with 3D, and then there's "Poser", the product that's produced and sold by Smith Micro. The thing is, most of the "good vibes" that endeared Poser to so many are the direct result of work that other companies did, primarily Curious Labs, Eovia and Zygote/DAZ3D, none of who are involved with the product anymore. While Smith Micro did add some new things early on, primarily during the initial release of Poser Pro, it's been years since the base program has received anything more than perfunctory upgrades while SM's chased after different and larger market segments that have nothing to do with graphics and 3d. To me, I think the thing that epitomizes SM most is the fact that under their aegis Content Paradise expects you to pay extra for the privilege of being able to re-download your product in the future. If they're not willing to provide a simple basic service to their customers that every other store in this market offers to their customers as a free courtesy, it's hard for me to justify much loyalty to SM, especially on a product that I feel would be in much better shape if someone else had acquired it.

I do not understand brand/product loyalty

I do, I trust Oreos more than those off brand look a likes, so I'm loyal to Oreo's and Oreo's only. .

TheDarkerSideOfArt posted at 9:23PM Thu, 12 April 2018 - #4328097

I do not understand brand/product loyalty

I do, I trust Oreos more than those off brand look a likes, so I'm loyal to Oreo's and Oreo's only. .

Original Oreos, yes. Totally agree. Bizarre new alien Oreos flavors like birthday cake and fruity pebbles, no way. But that's brand extension, which is another of the great flawed concepts that breaks the 22 immutable laws of marketing, as the new brand entity rarely actually results in greater sales overall, it just splits the sales between the original brand and the extension.

The last Poser official update here is over 80 days old. The last post on the SM Poser Facebook page is from March 2017 - over one year old. How much time do you think Smith Micro devotes to Poser?

Look beyond the cookies. I'm actually with Laylah 100% And I don't blame her If i were in that same situation would probably do it also maybe. I didn't start my 3D art with Poser or Studio don't think they even existed (maybe Poser 1..that shit is old like Maya) so maybe that's why I don't really understand why people get so...anal on both sides towards each others.I'd rather not have those feelings myself. but I do know.All of this isn't going to change anything because Smith Micro has there own forums were things like this...(well not any of my post anyway) should be at..every time anyone has a issues let them know.

(but then who will post here? well we can always debate about something more important like Oreo's)

I started in 2010 and picked up both DAZ 3.0 advanced and Poser, I think it was 8 at the time but I'm not going to swear to it. Both were paid programs at the time (DAZ had a free version, you had to pay for advanced, and it was about the same cost as Poser. I paid for both and upgraded both programs until DAZ turned around and made DAZ 4 free for all versions (and I was one of the people going "Um, Guys..." since I had just paid for the Pro version). Poser I stopped upgrading in 2014 because by then I had stopped using it.

What I find interesting is that DAZ users were in the same position here in 2010 that Poser users find themselves in now. Pretty much nobody tested products in DAZ, you bought them "hoping" they would work with no support from the vendor. I feel their pain. Really.

But in the end the people who are letting them down isn't DAZ, Renderocity, or the vendors at either place - who is letting them down is Smith Micro, who aren't even pretending to listen to their customers these days. On their own forums. With any kind of marketing. Or by updating Poser in any meaningful manner.

Which is pretty much what this thread is about.

It's no longer about which is better: Daz Studio or Poser. Who cares? It's about if Smith Micro is going to wake up. And the signs are not good.