wolf359 posted at 9:52PM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357761

Eh, that depends on what market you're aiming for. And Rosity >probably needs to make some decisions.

Indeed the The Daz users both native, and Migrated from poser, are a lost demographic.

Then why is it that still so many of those daz users are begging for Genesis in Poser? Can't go a week without hearing about how great G is but they hate the DS interface and miss Poser.

Provide a quality set of figures with good content and update some of the content creation tools (which would not take a whole lot, contrary to popular belief) and you might be surprised just how much of that 'lost demographic' find their way back. LaFemme has already been pulling some of them, maybe not permanently or in large droves but they're taking notice.

Show me a laptop that can run a 32-core threadripper without melting down and I'll believe desktops are dying. Until then it's just a bunch of bs. Enjoy your underpowered paperweight that doesn't offend the wifey's safe space, I'll stick with an actual PC with real power.

AmbientShade posted at 8:04PM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357780

Then why is it that still so many of those daz users are begging for Genesis in Poser? Can't go a week without hearing about how great G is but they hate the DS interface and miss Poser.

Where are you seeing these threads? How many are there? How many folks who use DS exclusively are saying it? Give me solid estimates, not assertion or anecdotes, please - seriously. Oh, and most importantly, how many are new users who got Poser, then decided they preferred it but are bound by the Genesis figure?

Forget the comparisons or which app reigns supreme - the reply to those questions, if they're backed with solid data, are important answers that the Rendo/Poser team will need - and they need solid data so they can make an intelligent decision or three from it. Do you have that data? I'm honestly interested if you do, but I bet Rendo would be even more interested.

Provide a quality set of figures with good content and update some of the content creation tools (which would not take a whole lot, contrary to popular belief) and you might be surprised just how much of that 'lost demographic' find their way back. LaFemme has already been pulling some of them, maybe not permanently or in large droves but they're taking notice.

Maybe. I honestly do not know these days, but a quick look at Alexa just today tells a pretty grim tale if you're simply trying to chase newbies/hobbyists, or if you think they should be trying to recapture any serious chunk of users who have left...how long ago?

Renderosity might be able to pull it off, but they have to think it through, and come up with a solid set of strategies to attract and keep these users.

Are you willing to stake your future income and career on your particular assertions? Renderosity will have to stake their futures on whatever they decide - one way or the other. I don;t expect them to take advice from me either -at least not without researching the facts - a lot.

Show me a laptop that can run a 32-core threadripper without melting down and I'll believe desktops are dying. Until then it's just a bunch of bs. Enjoy your underpowered paperweight that doesn't offend the wifey's safe space, I'll stick with an actual PC with real power.

I honestly don't care. Sure, your computer has a bigger wang or whatever and it makes you an uber-he-man - cool! Now square that with the computing usage patterns of the world at large, and more importantly, where the world at large is trending... and then try to tell us all how your big, bad machinery is going to sell more copies of Poser.

The point: You can wave your 1,500W multi-CPU water-cooled ePeen all day long, but that won't sell copies of Poser to a world going mobile, now will it? Seriously - we're not dong-measuring here, but looking at the market at large. There are laptops that are sufficient to run Poser 11 and/or DS all day long, and they're not even top-end. The point wasn't to bruise your feelings about whatever form factor is more powerful, but to point out that not even a majority of your potential market is going to have a desktop these days, and definitely won't in 5-10 years. Hell, the majority of the human population doesn't even have much more than a phone, but tailoring to that extreme market is silly, and for obvious reasons. However, accommodating the laptop-owning market is obviously not, and is already more than possible today, as long as they keep that in mind.

Penguinisto posted at 5:48AM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357789

AmbientShade posted at 8:04PM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357780

Then why is it that still so many of those daz users are begging for Genesis in Poser? Can't go a week without hearing about how great G is but they hate the DS interface and miss Poser.

Where are you seeing these threads?

Seriously?? Where the hell have you been the last few years? You really have no friggin clue what's going on in this community, do you? Just check out the announcement threads, that alone will give you examples aplenty.

There are laptops that are sufficient to run Poser 11 and/or DS all day long, and they're not even top-end.

Sure, but put them through prolonged high-end rendering, and they'll fry. Running a program and heavy use of a program are two different things.

DreaminGirl posted at 9:13PM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357791

Seriously?? Where the hell have you been the last few years? You really have no friggin clue what's going on in this community, do you? Just check out the announcement threads, that alone will give you examples aplenty.

I asked him that question to make a point: Hard data overrides emotional appeals and anecdotes based on what appear to be highly limited experience, lack of awareness of the situation, and a lack of awareness as to the scale of the problem Rendo is facing. Even if 1,000 posters specifically asked for it in this forum over the past 12 months, that's 1,000 potential copies of Poser sold, with perhaps (being way generous here) 1,000 more for shadow effect.. Rendo is going to need to sell more than 2,000 additional copies a year, every year, just to get usable growth - given the last income figures from Smith Micro's entire graphics division ($900k/yr or so if memory serves, for all of SM's graphics products combined), Rendo is gonna need to sell a lot more than 2k units a year just to keep things even-to-growing, and not half-starved like Smith Micro was doing.

I hope they pull it off.

Sure, but put them through prolonged high-end rendering, and they'll fry. Running a program and heavy use of a program are two different things.

Meh - the MacBook Pro I bought in 2013 and just got rid of grunted through almost six years of near-daily rendering abuse, and it still runs like a champ (albeit slower than my latest toy, which is nearly a year old now, and it shows no signs of deterioration in spite of the hammering it gets.) Most laptops on the mid-to-high-end are made to put up with similarly heavy loads generated by gaming these days. Besides, nobody is seriously rendering-out feature-length films in 1080p off of a laptop, FFS... For general hobbyist use w/ maybe 20-45 minute render runtimes at a go, it should do just fine.

Not much more to say, really. Let's give others a bite at the apple for a bit with their suggestions. This went well past being a debate, and maybe y'all should cool off a bit?

I'll check in tomorrow night-ish, if time permits. Have a good evening, y'all.

I find it interesting that people think that the increase in phone sales and the decrease in PC sale means that people are going to go mobile. Yes there are a lot of articles that state that, but most of the articles are missing some key points.

Just as an example, most of us have upgraded to a new phone at some point, possibly many times. So with that in mind, how many of your old phones do you still use? Well, I guess you could use them for paper weights, etc. They are not much good without a sim card and a phone plan..... They are basically disposable... Phones went from analog to digital, we all got new phones. There is a new standard coming out again, and we will all have to get new phones, again. That has not happened with PC's.... Phones are also status symbols, PC's, not so much.... How many people have shown you their new (insert whatever phone)??? See what I mean?

It isn't real hard to see where this is going. The PC market has matured, and many people don't upgrade PC's now because older ones still work fine. No, they may not be fast, but that isn't the point. They still work.... That is not the case with Mobile stuff. You would be hard pressed to find many apps that will run on a first gen Razor phone. The screen is too small, outdated versions of android, etc.

This has not had basically any impact on PC's. Windows 10 will run on a Pentium, so will XP, etc..... You can still surf the web on a small monitor, etc. People will stick with what works. Not everyone needs a powerhouse pc either. This will change with the new driver models coming out, so don;t think the pc market hasn't caught on to that....

On top of all of this, every time there is an increase in PC sales, suddenly there is a shortage of cpu's, memory, the prices go up, etc... Is that by design (production, etc), or very smart marketing.... I am going to go with the latter, because even with the shortages some companies still crank out millions of PC's. How many people have publicly said "I ordered a PC and they can't get the parts to build it." Yep, basically nobody.....

Food for thought......

Sure, but put them through prolonged high-end rendering, and they'll fry. Running a program and heavy use of a program are two different things.

I have to agree with Penguinitso based on my own experience. Properly made laptops work just fine for 3D and rendering without frying, I've been using them for years (almost all the images in my gallery were done on a laptop). True, they are not as fast as a high end desktops, but they are so much more convenient, which for many can be the most important factor. Try taking a desktop to a meeting to do a presentation or a live demo. Try taking a desktop to a lunch meeting, not very practical. I've had my laptop render for over 72 hours straight with no ill effects at all (the GPU never got over 60c), it's about 3 years old now and hasn't fried yet!

Want to render a lot of animated videos? Easy, just use a real professional 3D software, set up everything on your laptop, then send it to a render farm and get it rendered in less than a day. There are many freelance Blender artist that do this. They can take their work with them where ever they go. IMHO ignoring the mobile user will highly limit potential new customers (I know very few people under 28 that have a desktop computer, and most that do have a "real" computer (not just a phone or a tablet), it's a laptop).

As for what makes a good figure, that's a bit of a loaded question. IMHO, at a very basic level, what makes a good figure is one that is easy to use, easy to customize, easy to cloth, has great third party support, has outstanding shaders, is usable in a platform (software) that has a render engine that produces professional quality renders, and has a user base that is producing outstanding art. I'm also not going to invest in a figure/software platform where the majority of the renders posted are ..... well lets say .... don't look as good a what I produced 15 years ago. IMHO you really can't say a figure has to have certain set technical features, without also addressing figure usability and render quality. Unless your going for the professional market, it doesn't matter how technically "awesome" a figure is, if the average user (or even the content providers) can't easily produce inspiring renders. It's the renders posted here, and in other galleries, that inspire people to buy.

Then why is it that still so many of those daz users are begging for

Genesis in Poser? Can't go a week without hearing about how great G

is but they hate the DS interface and miss Poser. you might be surprised just how much of that 'lost demographic' find >their way back.

There is not going to be a fully functional Genesis in Poser,we all know this, and now that Daz has added a new IK system there is yet another Genesis native function that would have to be re-created in poser.

Genesis in poser = Dead subject.

So the people and Daz PA's who never used Poser at all are the "natives" to whom I was referring.

They do not "miss" the poser interface because there never used it in the past and have no reason to leave DS & Genesis.

The "Migrants" to whom I was referring are the"old timers" who started with poser 3-4 before Daz studio existed, but "migrated" to DS for the Genesis figures and content and the seemingly endless 70 % off sales

Or in My case. for the nonlinear motion clip system and more modern*Graph editor and dope sheet

(*no longer a paid add on in DS4.12 but now included FREE )

Niether of these demographics are likely to be a factor in the future Zero sum growth of the poser user base.

All of us ,who already own an older copy of poser, but do not use it in our daily work/play can still be considered part of the current poser owners.

If we all decide buy poser 12 that does not actually count as growth in market share for Bondware/poser. they are just reselling a new version to a stagnant population.

Growth in total market share only comes from adding to your total number of users from new incoming buyers who were not using your product at all.

Technically even Daz studio's market share only really "grows" when a new user of their free loss leader app, actually buys something the store.

Bondware has to convince new users to buy poser first even before counting on any new RMP Sales

A tougher challenge.

Penguinisto posted at 9:50AM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357798

I asked him that question to make a point

And in doing so, you proved that you are missing the point. And you can stop the tone-policing, that is very condescending.

DreaminGirl posted at 5:42AM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357807

Penguinisto posted at 9:50AM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357798

I asked him that question to make a point

And in doing so, you proved that you are missing the point. And you can stop the tone-policing, that is very condescending.

Keep in mind, DG, this is a user who hasn't moved past Poser 7.

Telling Renderosity how to market to "professionals."

Bwahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaaha!

Phones and tablets are content consumption devices.

Applications like Poser& Daz studio are production software in that they create digital content (stills &animation) to be consumed by others.

I own two smartphones and a tablet, two laptops and a compaq tower.

Screen space aside, I have never found any "production" software on a mobile device, that even came close to matching the performance of their Windows or Mac os equivalents running on a real computer.

On the Full tower vs laptop debate obviously YMMV based on what you are producing.

That said, for various reason,s My feature length animated film was/is rendered on my Mac laptop where I have my very Old C4D,and Adobe After effects & Final cut pro.

( rendered on a laptop) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjokKZX1r6I

I routinely commit to 50+ hour renders while I set up new animation on my PC where I have Iclone pro Endorphin&Daz studio.

or pass the time watching youtube video tutorials,posting online at CG talk,the Reallsuion forums, or Daz and here obviously.

I don't think anyone's anticipating that, say, Pixar is going to be punting desktops in favor of smartphones.

But hobbyists? I think the move to mobile is an issue that Rosity needs to at least consider. Maybe that means leaving the hobbyist market to DAZ. Maybe it means making Poser into something worth turning your computer on for (and making sure it can run on the average notebook). Heck, maybe it means a Poser app.

Phones are not only content consumption devices. In particular...the combination of cell phone cameras and social media means a lot of people are using their phones to edit images and video. Probably still just a gimmick for pros, but for hobbyists? There's a reason why Adobe has Photoshop apps now.

Folks, if you want to talk about laptops and smartphones, please go start another thread. This one is about figures.

Just look at the games market to see how wrong this idea of phones and tablets dominating is.

Yes, there are plenty of games for them, but they are different animals for the pc x-box etc games with different audiences. And even the pc gaming fraternity is split between those who treat it as a pastime, are likely to have bought a laptop of perhaps higher spec than needed to play games as well and the true hobbyists to whom a high end desktop, capable of the running the latest triple A titles with ultra settings in 4k at at least 60fps is a must. And NVidia and AMD graphics card divisions seem to do well enogh providing for there needs.

A quick way for a company to go bust, take their eye of the ball of their core market and spend time and money trying to break into markets for which their products are unsuitable and where consumers have no use for them.

Poser is a hobbyist product, Hobbyist are willing to spend time and money on their hobby, and persist with it How many apps have you downloaded and continued to use for significant time, a few utilities maybe , some multiplayer games where the community becomes the thing, but standalone hobby type apps? If Rendo abandons the core users (and potential users), hobbyist, then Poser will definitely die.

EClarke Sorry crossposted with you, but sometimes these wild ideas being posted just force out a response.

Glitterati3D posted at 5:37PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357686

If you had any real knowledge of the marketplace, as you so pompously announce in every long, drawn out post you would know that the information you want posted on a public message board is protected by NDA.

In case you hadn't noticed, this entire thread now consists of 3 of you, with absolutely no first hand knowledge of the marketplace, bloviating about what this market needs. None of which have any skin in the game with products in the store and first hand experience.

I don't want to argue with you and don't know why you're so hostile. If you think I'm wrong, just point out what exactly you think I am wrong about without jumping up with sharpened sticks and trying to impale me with insults. Did I run over your cat in a prior lifetime or something?

I wanted to know what YOU thought about your sales experience and what YOU thought were the factors that made a meaningful difference. I have no concern about any argument you may have been having with anyone else, just the fact that you seem to have noticed some marked difference. I wasn't asking for numbers or specifics, just your opinion. If your opinion is covered by an NDA, I think such a document would be a bit too strongly worded for my tastes.

As for my experience, I've had plenty in other marketplaces. This is not a topic only for Renderosity vendors.

How many times has this thread topic come up over the years? And, the same general things keep on being stated, over and over, but there's no magical ultimate success? It's always the same list of "wants" and then the same claims of "this figure that just got released does all that, so what's your problem."

For the first time, Poser has direct marketing support through a "Major Distributor." You might know about selling your product to Poser users. That's fine. But, I also have knowledge as well and part of that includes how general business and marketing practices work. One reason that third-party figures have not been successful is because they didn't have any front-end support from a good high-profile marketplace with a large somewhat-captive audience. Figures that may be considered successful, and I would assume this would be some of the more eclectic, non-generic-human, sorts of comic/cute figures, would probably had a focused appeal and took advantage of a need that was going unfulfilled. (I am unsure what vendors consider "successful." That standard certainly changes from product to product, it seems.)

I only wrote another small paragraph, but decided to cut it. It's just not worth the effort it would take to get the point across. This thread, yet another "what do you want in a figure" thread, that never ends and resurrects itself every year, will continue on with all the same things in it. And, why? Because people think that doing the same thing over and over will eventually cause some sort of magical success.

There is only one thing that matters right now - Poser has the front-end support of a high-profile distributor. It has not had such support since the disastrous breakup of the marriage of Poser and DAZ. If you can't see how important that is, then I have to point out you haven't been paying attention to things that you should, as a vendor, have been paying attention to.

But, while I do like and wish all good things for Renderosity, they're not a 3D software developer (Bondware does web apps) and their own marketplace evidences a dire need for better and more professional management. While I am hopeful, I am not confident.

Hahahahahahaha, the topic of this thread hasn't been discussed since Page 3.

Not since all the "experts" invaded the space and took over the conversation with their sermons.

EClark1894 posted at 5:55PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357823

Folks, if you want to talk about laptops and smartphones, please go start another thread. This one is about figures.

Good point. (no idea who got the idea that Poser should run on a smartphone... that's just nuts. Now if someone wants to make an ARM-compatible old-school... heh. I'll stop.)

Okay - figures. Second priority, but important nonetheless.

Here's how it boils down:

Figure out which figure sells, is competently built, has the greatest flexibility,and has the best long-term potential.

...then buy it. Incorporate it into Poser. Hire the best mesh-mongers you can buy. Support that figure. Keep it through multiple versions. Nurture it as time passes, and be sure to include backwards compatibility as you make changes.

You-know-who does this now. They're anywhere from 3 to 6x larger than Renderosity almost precisely because they do this (the wide range is due to guesstimating Alexa's curve, but be assured, they are far larger, healthier, and by all signs still growing at a decent, healthy rate). They don't scatter their attention while flitting from mesh to mesh with each new iteration of their flagship application, or hoping/praying that someone, somewhere out there will build a Vicky-killer!!!!!11!!OMG!!! (patent pending). They keep their eyes on the prize, and have done so ever since the Unimesh Vicky/Aiko/Stephanie/Michael/David/Yadda 3 came out.

Renderosity needs to do the same w/ Poser.

Does this mean reject all non-blessed/imprimatured figures? Of course not! Invite them to the party. Dare them to do better, and if one does, buy that, slowly working it in over the next X iterations (again, remember your backwards compatibility and include conversion workflow to the point of one-to-three-click adaptation.) Just be certain that if you do decide to replace, that the replacement is so badassed that you're willing to bet the company on it, since you'd be deviating from the long-term goal of curating one excellent and carefully-built figure.

...is that easy enough to grok, campers?

Morkonan posted at 6:12PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357864

Because people think that doing the same thing over and over will eventually cause some sort of magical success.

...and others have a hate-on for certain businesses to the point of derangement; I trust I don't have to point to specific evidence. Me, I want a healthy competing marketplace. It's the best way to ensure the best stuff is available to me and my little hobby. Choice is a beautiful thing... especially to those of us who remember the days when choice was either nonexistent or hella expensive.

There is only one thing that matters right now - Poser has the front-end support of a high-profile distributor. It has not had such support since the disastrous breakup of the marriage of Poser and DAZ.

Dude, it had no such support since Curious Labs cratered. And yeah, it's hella important that this time things go right (I know, I know...)

Good news is, Rendo has 1) a separate and fairly healthy income stream outside of Poser, but 2) that income stream is actually related to Poser and DS, so Rendo (unlike SM, EGISys, etc) is fully incentivized to give Poser the needed care. This means figures, natch. It also means Marketplace standards that will help the figure(s) actually sell (so yes, it's related.)

Back to the original question what makes a good figure is Points, Faces and Suntan Rays.

Penguinisto posted at 3:06AM Wed, 24 July 2019 - #4357872

Keep it through multiple versions. Nurture it as time passes, and be sure to include backwards compatibility as you make changes.

This I agree with you on. And I (and others) have been saying this since at least Poser 9/2012. It can still be done and Poser has an entire family of legacy figures that could be incorporated into a new generation. But for whatever reason SM just didn't seem interested in it. Apparently they thought it was better to introduce a new figure with an entirely new mesh with each new version of Poser they released - the only exception being Alyson and Ryan were carried over from P8 to P9. Mesh design takes a massive chunk of time, and when that time is already limited by release deadlines, trying to design a new mesh instead of refining an already existing mesh is absolutely a waste of time that could have been spent on improving the rig, building new content for the figure, etc. But I guess they didn't see it that way. So we got Rex and Roxie, then Paul and Pauline... All characters that could have been new shapes for an existing mesh instead of individual meshes with their own rigs and UVs incompatible with each other.

Has nobody noticed that La Femme is the new official Poser figure?

RobZhena posted at 7:39AM Wed, 24 July 2019 - #4357896

Has nobody noticed that La Femme is the new official Poser figure?

I have. It's the reason I bought into La Femme, despite being burned on previous Rosity figures. I thought this time it would be different - because she would be the official Poser female (with L'Homme to follow).

But I'm wondering if that is still true. They haven't said much about it since La Femme's debut. I would think this would be a major factor in both La Femme's success, and Poser's.

randym77 posted at 8:50AM Wed, 24 July 2019 - #4357898

RobZhena posted at 7:39AM Wed, 24 July 2019 - #4357896

Has nobody noticed that La Femme is the new official Poser figure?

I have. It's the reason I bought into La Femme, despite being burned on previous Rosity figures. I thought this time it would be different - because she would be the official Poser female (with L'Homme to follow).

But I'm wondering if that is still true. They haven't said much about it since La Femme's debut. I would think this would be a major factor in both La Femme's success, and Poser's.

Much on L'Homme, you mean? I've seen the devs mention he's coming several times.

They might have their hands full. For all we know, he's probably in development.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 7:51AM Wed, 24 July 2019 - #4357899

Much on L'Homme, you mean? I've seen the devs mention he's coming several times.

They might have their hands full. For all we know, he's probably in development.

I meant much on La Femme being the new official Poser figure. It's not even mentioned on her product page, and IMO that's a big selling feature. (Though maybe they don't want to do that, now that she's not free. If she is the official Poser figure, I would expect her to be free for Poser 11 owners.)

RobZhena is right...people don't seem to realize La Femme is the new official Poser figure. There's talk about Venus or Project Evolution or some other yet to be developed figure being the new official Poser figure. If it's really La Femme, I'm surprised that's not being publicized more.

I don't think they've made anything official yet. I'd wait until they're able to at least get a service release made for Poser - they're trying for October it seems?

I believe that they can't rush with these decisions. A lot of strategy will be required, and they don't even have the new team set up yet. Give them time.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 8:19AM Wed, 24 July 2019 - #4357903

I don't think they've made anything official yet. I'd wait until they're able to at least get a service release made for Poser - they're trying for October it seems?

I believe that they can't rush with these decisions. A lot of strategy will be required, and they don't even have the new team set up yet. Give them time.

That's why I wondered if it had changed. La Femme was supposed to be the new official Poser figure. The email I got about her was from Smith-Micro, not from Renderosity.

Now that Renderosity owns Poser, I would think that would solidify La Femme's position as the official Poser figure...but maybe not?

Now that Renderosity owns Poser, I would think that would solidify La Femme's position as the official Poser figure...but maybe not?

...Or they could shock everyone and have the new poser base figures designed by Reallusion the makers of Character creator 3 sold here in the RMP,...

I have no clue what Character Creator does, and their web site isn't particularly elucidating.

Would it be possible for Character Creator to support La Femme, rather than having Reallusion create all new Poser figures?

I have no clue what Character Creator does, and their web site isn't particularly elucidating.

This youtube video gives a pretty good overview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94

In short it is a stand alone application that has Customizable base Characters that you create,dress and export as Avatars for Iclone or other programs. They have a very accurate shape projection system that enables you to convert a CCs avatar into any Daz Figure you import via FBX from Millenuim 3 to all Genesis.8 Character morphs .

They also support the hivewire figures as you see in the YT vid

Would it be possible for Character Creator to support La >Femme, rather than having Reallusion create all new Poser figure

IMHO it would probably be easier for Reallusion to create new figures in native Cr2 format as they are already vendors at renderosity with a forum here for CC3 and an established company that could also help invigorate the animation side of things for poser.

As you stated, the Lafemme as the default poser figure, was a Smith Micro arrangement as they actually provided some funding for the project, according to Blackhearted.

The Bondware team has no obligation to adhere to such an arrangement as they have no investment in Lafemme but we shall see in the coming months.

Genuine question, what would be the advantage of adopting a new cc figure?

To me, changing figures at this stage would seem very counter productive. LaFemme seems to be selling well, and the amount of support give hope that it can break out of the viscous circle of users not adopting a figure until there is sufficient vendor and vendors not supporting a figure until there are enough users buying products to make it worthwhile.

Also it's not clear about bondware not having a commitment to LaFemme, the figure and a number of the product for it are under the banner of Rpublishing, so it would appear there is financial support in one form or another for LaFemme. (And I recall Blackhearted saying he wasn't getting anything other than credit from the sales of LaFemme)

I also don't get this whole idea of an official figure for Poser. Until Poser 12 becomes a reality, surely the only "official" Poser figure are those included in Poser 11. If there are going to be "official" new figures in Poser 12, and I know some people would argue against this, the obvious would be a LaFemme 2, as it could help Poser sales by saying to customers, you've liked LaFemme, now get the even better LaFemme 2 included in Poser

Until bondware makes an official statement or releases a new version of poser with a new figures included we are all just speculating.

Nails60 posted at 10:58AM Thu, 25 July 2019 - #4357981

Genuine question, what would be the advantage of adopting a new cc figure?

To me, changing figures at this stage would seem very counter productive. LaFemme seems to be selling well, and the amount of support give hope that it can break out of the viscous circle of users not adopting a figure until there is sufficient vendor and vendors not supporting a figure until there are enough users buying products to make it worthwhile.

Kinda depends... does the figure have a good topo that will hold up over the next 5-10 years? Is it clean (no nGons)? Is it flexible (no/little distortion, even in extremis)? Is it easy to morph out of its default facial shape (this bit is more important than you might realize - anybody can make a body morph that alters appearances, but can you make the face not look like the original figure at all, to the point where even folks who have LF have to ask "hey, what figure is that?") Lots of questions like that. I don't have the figure so I cannot tell you one way or the other if the potentials are there.

Now if it fails in some fashion, then it'll be easier to rip that bandaid off now (if a new figure out there is better and available), than to try and disrupt the hell out of the ecosystem 2 years later (or so) after Poser 12 comes out to great fanfare and someone discovers that one little thing wrong in the mesh that they thought nobody would care about.

I also don't get this whole idea of an official figure for Poser. Until Poser 12 becomes a reality, surely the only "official" Poser figure are those included in Poser 11. If there are going to be "official" new figures in Poser 12, and I know some people would argue against this, the obvious would be a LaFemme 2, as it could help Poser sales by saying to customers, you've liked LaFemme, now get the even better LaFemme 2 included in Poser

Absolutely correct, and that is the best way to go about it. The idea of a new official figure that stays and lasts would be launched and made official with the Bondware-approved/owned version. Anything else just invites confusion, or requires a subtle-but-doable means of getting everyone used to the idea beforehand.

wolf359 posted at 2:17PM Thu, 25 July 2019 - #4358012

Until bondware makes an official statement or releases a new version of poser with a new figures included we are all just speculating.

Well, duh. Did you read the first post?

Penguinisto posted at 11:01PM Fri, 26 July 2019 - #4357873 Me, I want a healthy competing marketplace. It's the best way to ensure the best stuff is available to me and my little hobby. Choice is a beautiful thing... especially to those of us who remember the days when choice was either nonexistent or hella expensive.

(Apologies if my formatting poofs up... )

The key is "competing."

The products aren't always similar in this market, but many of the functions of competing products that we're concerned about are similar. Most consumer buy them to fulfill the same need/want. If one is examining differences or seeking to maximize strengths for this particular product, at least in terms of "figure" then we have a way to go based on what choices normal consumers of such a thing value. For myself, there''s no other variable than "Poser" for this particular product. That's my determiner. But, we've seen others who are not so loyal to a particular platform. And, more importantly, in order to expand and survive, the platform has to have active marketing and appeal as well as full-on and rabid support (internal) for the mainline crack it wants to sell - An uber awesome super-duper visually appealing and technically excellent figure with a darn good looking render potential straight out of the box with one-click "Do Art" capability. :) (I think PE had such a possibility and still might. But, everyone wants to get their team together to make their own brand-new-next-thing Vicky-Killer...)

Dude, it had no such support since Curious Labs cratered. And yeah, it's hella important that this time things go right (I know, I know...)

DAZ was pretty strong support. It was high profile and professionally run with a very clear emphasis on stewarding its product lines and their presentation to the consumer. DAZ ran it like they wanted to be "professionals." They rolled out figures properly with big blockbuster teams from a steady stable of recognized performers. Nothing passed through those doors that didn't get someone's eyeball plastered all over it before it hit the shelf. And, it showed. Personally, I feel their diligence and restrictions placed some limitations on variety and artistic style. Plus, there wasn't a single DAZ product with geometry in it that I couldn't identify as uniquely DAZ just from looking at the topo and UV. DAZ loved them some "thick" geometry and if you an replace a detail with a texture instead of real verts, then you're a thumbz-up DAZ piece of clothing...

Editorial note: This is for example. Can't very well talk about the sorts of things that make good figures and good figure markets without... talking about them.

Good news is, Rendo has 1) a separate and fairly healthy income stream outside of Poser, but 2) that income stream is actually related to Poser and DS, so Rendo (unlike SM, EGISys, etc) is fully incentivized to give Poser the needed care. This means figures, natch. It also means Marketplace standards that will help the figure(s) actually sell (so yes, it's related.)

It is good news in some respects. The most prominent of all of them is that Renderosity is a "High Profile" distributor for Poser products. Of course, the stable of those is kind of limited. RIP RNDA et al. But, there have really only been two footprints in distributors for Poser and one of them is Renderosity. The others were always a tier down, not in quality, just in overall presence. (Loved RDNA, Content Paradise never really counted because it was continually focused on Poser 4..., PW had a license that was too eclectic and Hivewire suffers from a lack of inventory.)

But, we gots a problem... Renderosity isn't a developer. Bondware specializes in front-ends/infrastructure apps for websites, AFAIK. (To be fair, Smith Micro was always primarily a networking IT company.) And, in my opinion, while Renderosity has survived, it's only done it because it's adopted a sort of Wallmart approach, but with the lack of professionalism that Wallmart has. It's not a slight, it's just a sort of sad fact that Renderosity has to correct if they want to truly leverage their one big asset that they bring to the table - Their footprint.

See this? -> https://www.renderosity.com/assets/images/homepage/1x2.png

That's an Unreal Engine promotional image from Hellblade: Sunua's Sacrifice. https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/developer-interviews/exploring-the-mindset-behind-hellblade-senuas-sacrifice

Wow, I didn't know Renderosity was associated with Unreal development and Senua's sacrifice! Lemme click! ...

See this? https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/delorean-dmc-12/136576/

Sweet! A "Delorean" automobile! It looks very nicely done, too, and there are also a couple of companion products for it. Hey, there's a "Game Development License" so I can license a real Delorean car for my game! I am sure that the original IP owners who actually own the Delorean Trademark that is so prominently presented on the front grill of that product would be thrilled that someone else is selling their Trademarked IP for them... Searching to see where the seller obtained legal license to sell a third-party wholly owned Trademarked and probably conditionally copyrighted name did not bear any fruit. IF legal license has been obtained, then I apologize for the mistaken assumption. If not.. then Renderosity has invited a lawsuit into their office to sit down and talk about "punative damages" in front of a judge...

(Hint: https://www.delorean.com <--- These guys actually own "Delorean" and the DMC ™ Trademarked logo, which is a thing that true "artists" like to protect.)

But, considering the admittedly talented artist's portfolio includes a number of third-party IPs that do not appear to have the legal license to sell such products without very practically threatening a criminal injunction charge and the shut-down of the entire Renderosity website while its inventory of items are searched by prosecutors. This would be far from the first time that licensing for the sale of third-party protected IPs was not in evidence on Renderosity.

Just not professional-grade administration in evidence, despite my own measly efforts in the past reporting similar Intellectual Property violations several times. They did act on my reports, but do not apparently suffer from the work of doing Due Diligence to protect the integrity of the marketplace nor the very real survival of their business against what could eventually amount to criminal prosecution for Conspiracy to Defraud, depending upon how many infractions a prosecutor's computer forensics team could dredge up. Someone at Renderosity got paid for the work it took to put such products up in the marketplace and to receive and deposit the commission payments they got. They were paid. To list products like that, someone wrote a paycheck.

It's things like that which worry me. Everyone loves to say "shut up Mork blah blah" and just goes on and discounts what I say. But... The above sort of thing is no better than one of those "gfx" sites that rips off hard-working 3D artists every single hour. We all want to do something about those, right? And, if our new Captain of the Poser Industry doesn't want to clean up its own image? If these sorts of things continue, then what chance does a legitimate successor figure to usher in the "new age" of Poser actually have?

Speaking of "figures," who now owns the rights to the Terai Yuki? (E-Frontier, still?) It'd be a good idea for Renderosity to seek out that license-holder and secure distribution rights, possibly some form of Terai Yuki Lite for an inclusion in Poser. Why? Japan, that's why. There's no reason to leave out the Japanese market, especially since it appears to have a decent showing for Poser. IIRC, Renderosity has sold similarly focused products for that market. (Several figures focused towards and popular in that market. "Near Me" or something like that, maybe? Can't remember.)

I'll restate something - I like Renderosity. I really do. I like the sort of "free spirit" in the community. What I don't like is what I have stated many times over the years - A lack of focus on professionalism and inventory stewardship. That's it. For a new figure, the Poser community who pays for products here deserves a heightened sense of professional development and attention to professional practices.

Morkonan posted at 4:02AM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358115

Sweet! A "Delorean" automobile! It looks very nicely done, too, and there are also a couple of companion products for it. Hey, there's a "Game Development License" so I can license a real Delorean car for my game! I am sure that the original IP owners who actually own the Delorean Trademark that is so prominently presented on the front grill of that product would be thrilled that someone else is selling their Trademarked IP for them... Searching to see where the seller obtained legal license to sell a third-party wholly owned Trademarked and probably conditionally copyrighted name did not bear any fruit. IF legal license has been obtained, then I apologize for the mistaken assumption. If not.. then Renderosity has invited a lawsuit into their office to sit down and talk about "punative damages" in front of a judge...

I mean if you want to get technical about it I could link to a few products on Daz's site that are also blatant violations of IPs that I've noticed over the years - a couple of them by very well established content artists in the community. Thing is every 3D content market struggles with this sort of thing. It's impossible for any of them to know the licensing rights of every single model or product posted to their site, which is why most of them have a process in place for when you find questionable content.

Morkonan posted at 4:26AM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358115

I'll restate something - I like Renderosity. I really do.

ROFL, sure you do. (end sarcasm)

Morkonan posted at 10:55AM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358115

Penguinisto posted at 11:01PM Fri, 26 July 2019 - #4357873 Me, I want a healthy competing marketplace. It's the best way to ensure the best stuff is available to me and my little hobby. Choice is a beautiful thing... especially to those of us who remember the days when choice was either nonexistent or hella expensive.

(Apologies if my formatting poofs up... )

The key is "competing."

The products aren't always similar in this market, but many of the functions of competing products that we're concerned about are similar. Most consumer buy them to fulfill the same need/want. If one is examining differences or seeking to maximize strengths for this particular product, at least in terms of "figure" then we have a way to go based on what choices normal consumers of such a thing value. For myself, there''s no other variable than "Poser" for this particular product. That's my determiner. But, we've seen others who are not so loyal to a particular platform. And, more importantly, in order to expand and survive, the platform has to have active marketing and appeal as well as full-on and rabid support (internal) for the mainline crack it wants to sell - An uber awesome super-duper visually appealing and technically excellent figure with a darn good looking render potential straight out of the box with one-click "Do Art" capability. :) (I think PE had such a possibility and still might. But, everyone wants to get their team together to make their own brand-new-next-thing Vicky-Killer...)

I think Penguinisto summed it up pretty good. "Choice is a beautiful thing".

The key to competition isn't in product similarity... it's in choice. What do I spend my money on? What do I support? Truth is, and it's a truth that Renderosity needs to learn if they don't already know, is that the real competition in this marketplace isn't from a similar product, but from marketing for choice. I asked a question to start this thread off, and it still applies. What makes a good figure. Obviously, it's one that's well supported. Customers will support the figure that they view as best supported. That hasn't been a Poser figure since Posette.

AmbientShade posted at 9:06AM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358127

Morkonan posted at 4:02AM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358115

Sweet! A "Delorean" automobile! It looks very nicely done, too, and there are also a couple of companion products for it. Hey, there's a "Game Development License" so I can license a real Delorean car for my game! I am sure that the original IP owners who actually own the Delorean Trademark that is so prominently presented on the front grill of that product would be thrilled that someone else is selling their Trademarked IP for them... Searching to see where the seller obtained legal license to sell a third-party wholly owned Trademarked and probably conditionally copyrighted name did not bear any fruit. IF legal license has been obtained, then I apologize for the mistaken assumption. If not.. then Renderosity has invited a lawsuit into their office to sit down and talk about "punative damages" in front of a judge...

I mean if you want to get technical about it I could link to a few products on Daz's site that are also blatant violations of IPs that I've noticed over the years - a couple of them by very well established content artists in the community. Thing is every 3D content market struggles with this sort of thing. It's impossible for any of them to know the licensing rights of every single model or product posted to their site, which is why most of them have a process in place for when you find questionable content.

You're both correct. Both sites (and numerous others) have vendors who have blown off trademarks, design patents(!), and suchlike.

To DAZ' credit, they do have a stated policy against copyright and trademark infringement: https://www.daz3d.com/terms-of-service

They also receive and act on trademark infringement complaints with the same process as they would when handling DMCA complaints, but that comes with a big, fat caveat: The property owner has to make the formal complaint, and submit a statement (under penalty of perjury) that the infringing product is theirs. This process description is largely from memory, but it makes sense, since this process is typical for any large tech company that acts as an intermediary/platform for others' works.

Not sure if Rendo has a listed policy (it'll take awhile to find if it exists, methinks - they need to make their policy more prominent and easier to find), but I think they would handle it the same way? They put the onus on the vendor to secure those rights for a few good reasons, legal liability being chief among them. I bet if you upload a product for sale, you have to agree to that as well. ;)

This does bring up why whatever figure(s) become default need to be built from scratch. The reason that old Renda figure was quietly pulled from the marketplace not long after it was launched was because it grafted the feet (and hands?) from the original Poser 4 female figure (Posette). Problem with that was, the mesh was licensed from DAZ, and the rights were non-transferable, and the gent(s) who made Renda had no idea.

I remember writing a how-to/FAQ for copyright and IP protections a very long time ago. Got laughed at over it in PoserPros because it was too strict (it was pretty strict, but for good reasons). Then a few months later, the site owners got caught up in a copyright kerfuffle with one of their products, causing the site itself to crash (DAZ bought it to rescue the other products and audience/info.) I'll have to scour the old hard drives for it, to see if it still exists somewhere...

But, to tie it to the topic, yeah - the figures need to be clean in the intellectual property sense too.

ISTR a few years ago that several products here were pulled because of trademark infringement. Some of 'em made it back with altered names and logos, others, I dunno.

Any road up, anything I sell/give away here has all names changed to protect... well, me, basically. So, you won't see any "Daleks" or "Marshall Amps" or whatever. TBH, I think it's something the vendors and Rendo both should be taking care of. Vendors should know by now that outright copying of a product name is asking for trouble and Rendo should make it part of their own testing process.

Is this what you are looking for concerning copyrights and trademarks?

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/wiki/?selling&upload

Bill

willyb53 posted at 11:54PM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358183

Is this what you are looking for concerning copyrights and trademarks?

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/wiki/?selling&upload

Bill

Aye, that's the one but... there are several products in the MP that violate trademarks. I ain't naming any names because - as a vendor - it may seem like conflict of interest to do so. That said, the ones I'm talking about shouldn't have been allowed to be sold without some changes to their names. Granted, the vendor(s) should have not used trademarked names but failing that, Rendo should have rejected them until the changes were made.

In the case of images/3d models it can be a little murky, unlike copyright law from wiki: A trademark is a word, phrase, or logo that identifies the source of goods or services.[1] Trademark law protects a business' commercial identity or brand by discouraging other businesses from adopting a name or logo that is "confusingly similar" to an existing trademark. The goal is to allow consumers to easily identify the producers of goods and services and avoid confusion.[2]

no consumer would confuse a Jeep with an image of a Jeep. The owners of the Jeep trademark would have to prove damages

Copyrights, on the otherhand, such as an image of MickyMouse" are easier and Disney is known for going after that type of violation

Bill

And from Bitlaw: A mark is infringed under U.S. trademark law when another person uses a device (a mark) so as to cause confusion as to the source or sponsorship of the goods or services involved. Multiple parties may use the same mark only where the goods of the parties are not so similar as to cause confusion among consumers. Where a mark is protected only under common law trademark rights, the same marks can be used where there is no geographic overlap in the use of the marks. Federally registered marks have a nation-wide geographic scope, and hence are protected throughout the United States.

Bill

SamTherapy posted at 5:49PM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358188

willyb53 posted at 11:54PM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358183

Is this what you are looking for concerning copyrights and trademarks?

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/wiki/?selling&upload

Bill

Aye, that's the one but... there are several products in the MP that violate trademarks. I ain't naming any names because - as a vendor - it may seem like conflict of interest to do so. That said, the ones I'm talking about shouldn't have been allowed to be sold without some changes to their names. Granted, the vendor(s) should have not used trademarked names but failing that, Rendo should have rejected them until the changes were made.

Both sites should reject such things outright, because the 'honor system' obviously ain't working. (...and seriously, it's drop-easy to tell when a trademark is being infringed on most times and can be weeded out in testing... it's the obscure/non-obvious stuff that you need to have the policy for.)

(PS: Thx for the link... I figured it was in there somewhere.)

willyb53 posted at 2:35AM Sun, 28 July 2019 - #4358191

And from Bitlaw: A mark is infringed under U.S. trademark law when another person uses a device (a mark) so as to cause confusion as to the source or sponsorship of the goods or services involved. Multiple parties may use the same mark only where the goods of the parties are not so similar as to cause confusion among consumers. Where a mark is protected only under common law trademark rights, the same marks can be used where there is no geographic overlap in the use of the marks. Federally registered marks have a nation-wide geographic scope, and hence are protected throughout the United States.

Bill

There are two companies that I know of - both in the same line of business - that would be hopping mad to find out their names are being used in products on sale in the MP. One of them has recently become very litigious, too. T'other one, maybe not so much recently but they did draw a line in the sand a few years ago. Far as I know, nobody selling similar items in the US has crossed that line since.

Customers will support the figure that they view as best supported. That hasn't been a Poser figure since Posette.

What other poser females were available at the time of posette other than the uber primitive Poser 2 female/males.??? Her "success" was less a matter of choice and more a matter of lack of viable alternatives

while standards have become very high in this arena the technical skills of the average user have not advanced so much.

From a pure technical perspective, PE was a"good" figure. but it was not that compatible with any of poser native clothing creation tools except the dynamic cloth room and was initially not even available here in the RMP.

A "Good figure" is not enough in todays market

It needs a powerful core platform, that gives it its functionality and a content market controlled by the same people who own that platform and the figure itself. ( See apple/IOS/appstore ,See Google,Android,google play store)

Why even have a "face room" or a "Talk designer" or a "walk designer" or a fitting room and continue to adopt third party "saviour" figures that are not compatible with core program features that could make your software more competitive and attract much needed new users.??

There is a reason why all of the poser Character animators ,who needed walking, talking, people have moved on the other programs Like Iclone Maya and yes..... even Daz studio.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xOSyocgvpRfrYw821IxxdYVLuQI5rALm/view

You cant have a discussion about how a poser figure will succeed without discussing the current state of the poser software or even the state of the RMP compared to its obvious competition in this market segment.

wolf359 posted at 5:19AM Sun, 28 July 2019 - #4358205

Customers will support the figure that they view as best supported. That hasn't been a Poser figure since Posette.

What other poser females were available at the time of posette other than the uber primitive Poser 2 female/males.??? Her "success" was less a matter of choice and more a matter of lack of viable alternatives

while standards have become very high in this arena the technical skills of the average user have not advanced so much.

From a pure technical perspective, PE was a"good" figure. but it was not that compatible with any of poser native clothing creation tools except the dynamic cloth room and was initially not even available here in the RMP.

A "Good figure" is not enough in todays market

It needs a powerful core platform, that gives it its functionality and a content market controlled by the same people who own that platform and the figure itself. ( See apple/IOS/appstore ,See Google,Android,google play store)

Why even have a "face room" or a "Talk designer" or a "walk designer" or a fitting room and continue to adopt third party "saviour" figures that are not compatible with core program features that could make your software more competitive and attract much needed new users.??

There is a reason why all of the poser Character animators ,who needed walking, talking, people have moved on the other programs Like Iclone Maya and yes..... even Daz studio.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xOSyocgvpRfrYw821IxxdYVLuQI5rALm/view

You cant have a discussion about how a poser figure will succeed without discussing the current state of the poser software or even the state of the RMP compared to its obvious competition in this market segment.

You're misreading the point of the thread again. The "a good figure" is a vague term, but I wanted opinions. Facts vary depending on what figure you're talking about and what program. We're talking about Poser. You consistently post about Realusion, Studio, and Iclone programs and figures and maybe those work for you. But not everyone else.

And you consistently make the same assessment. Poser has to beome a "clone" of all the other software in order to regain it's market.

A good figure is really very simple. It's a figure that caters to your customers. And, instead of all this techno babble, accompanied by legalese that no one reads, it's summed up in just a few bullet points:

For the load, pose, render crowd, give them a figure that doesn't re-invent the wheel. They want to load, pose, render, not learn Poser all over again. And they make up 90% of the customer base.

For vendors to make content for the load, pose, render crowd (again the bread and butter of this market) also don't re-invent the wheel with every new figure. Do what the La Femme developers have done and that's simple - make it EASY to create content, without reinvesting in every tool, every MR, every workflow they have in place.

Success is simple - give your customers what they want and need.

The rest is techno babble that goes right over their heads and clears out a forum conversation (just like this one) in seconds.

La Femme reading the books written in this forum:

SamTherapy posted at 5:06AM Sun, 28 July 2019 - #4358176

ISTR a few years ago that several products here were pulled because of trademark infringement. Some of 'em made it back with altered names and logos, others, I dunno.

Yeah, DarkSeal made an awesome Poser/DS figure very much like the Pathfinder Goblins that was just incredible. Think it lasted 3 days before it was purged from the internets. :(

The "a good figure" is a vague term, but I wanted opinions We're talking about Poser.

So to be clear, you only want opinions on what makes a "good figure"
for poser without any contextual references to posers feature set and how that feature set works in conjunction with the "good figure"..for poser??

And you have consistently posted that you have found your "good figures" in the Hivewire bases anyway so why do you even want peoples opinions at all??

And you consistently make the same assessment. Poser has to beome a "clone" of all the other software in order to regain it's market.

"Poser Pro 11 - Professional 3D Character Art and Animation Software"

This ,in various iterations, has been the official tag line since poser 4.

Having a modern set of NATIVE poser figures that can use ALL of posers advertised features like the talk designer,walk designer or face room is not becoming a "clone" of the Daz or Reallusion products,...its called competing for paying customers.

You concede that poser needs to "regains its market share"

How??..by remaining in a myopic little comfort bubble and catering only to the existing still render/web gallery /portrait/ pin up crowd?

while re-selling them more versions of a program that has listed features that would largely be unusable with your beloved Dawn or frankly any of the current aspirants to the mantle of: "the new poser base figures"

I get it... you and most poser users, dont seem care about any actual movement ,animated filmaking,speaking ability for Dawn & Dusty (or whatever).

But trust me 3D animated Characters are in demand in 2019 and any 3D Character program that hopes to gain the next generation of users while ignoring basic animation ability (walking and talking) does so at their own peril.